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  Discussion on Nasty Skin Infection in 2 Year Old
Author Message
Member:
cathy33

Posted on Wednesday, May 4, 2011 - 9:40 pm:

Dear Dr O

About 10 days ago, my youngster developed several patches of raised hair along his back. On closer inspection these felt like 1cm (or less) lumps under the skin with a central yellow scab/crust. I found some more in his mane and top of his tail. The lumps were non itchy but very sore to touch. Otherwise he is fit and well and had a healthy looking coat.

Some background however is that he needed plasma transfusions (no colostrum) at birth and also has needed several antibiotic treatments for various problems in the past. He shares a field with another youngster who remains fine and there are no other horses on the yard with a skin problem.

I called my vet out who suspected a staph infection and said I should wash the lesions with hibiscrub, trying to soften/remove the scabs, then wash the whole body with Maleseb (anti microbial shampoo) on a daily basis. He suggested some bute to alleviate the pain but we decided against antibiotics immediately as we thought he should try and get his own immune system to deal with it.

Over the next couple of days or so, after washing, the lumps spread rapidly to the extent that now, after 10 days, he is pretty much covered, legs included. The scabbing is quite extensive and very hard to remove (and very painful). Once it is removed (with some hair loss) the area seems dry and scaley/scurfy. I am sure the washing/shampooing spread the problem. He is still well in himself with good appetite and living out all day on good pasture.

My vet is now suggesting systemic antibiotic treatment. I have put my youngster on probiotics and also Equine America Emune and aloe vera juice to encourage his own immune system to kick in.I am worried about continually giving him antibiotics as I feel his own immune system is not being given a chance to develop and as a result he is constantly submitting to infection.

My questions are:

- Do you agree that the most likely cause of the infection in bacterial and probably Staph? Am I treating it the right way?

- Should I continue to let him try and fight this on his own given that he is still well in himself (albeit probably uncomfortable)?

- Is there anything else I can give him to stimulate his immune system?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated,

Many thanks,

Cathy

PS I couldn't find much information on this type of infection in your articles - have I missed it somewhere? Thank you.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, May 5, 2011 - 8:41 am:

Hello Cathy,
I think you are describing Dermatophilus. Check our this article it should allow you to diagnose the condition and explains proper treatment, HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Hair and Coat Problems / Itching / Irritated Skin » Rain Rot and Rain Scald: Dermatophilus.
DrO
Member:
cathy33

Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2011 - 5:20 pm:

Thank you Dr O.

Having re-read your article, I think it might indeed be a severe form of summer dermatophilus (I am from he UK so it is the start of summer here).

I am having great difficulty controlling i; as fast as I clear scabs new ones are forming. I am following the advice in your article and have not resorted to antibiotics yet, but it is pretty much everywhere now and so painful for him when I try and lift the scabs. Is there anything you can recommend to soften them?

I rugged my youngster last night as the forecast was rain (first we've had in a month). In the morning he seemed to be worse -I wondered whether
this was because it was quite muggy and the warmth encouraged the bugs to multiply under the rug, even though he didn't sweat! Should I rug him in these conditions or let him get wet. Unfortunately he hates being stabled.

Thank you for your advice,

Cathy
Member:
lara

Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2011 - 9:25 pm:

Cathy, Im not sure if you have access to a product called " Tomorrow"...it is for cow mastitis...several people, including me, have had wonderful results with it. Best part: no need to pick the scabs...it soaks right in and within 3 days they are gone.
Good luck with your youngster
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, May 8, 2011 - 10:09 am:

Hello Cathy,
The article gives recommendations on softening the scabs. I would not try to remove firmly attached scabs just wait until they are loose enough to remove easily. It sounds like the horse is going to be wet whether you rug or not and I agree the extra heat under the rug will likely increase the rate of spread.

I have not tried Tomorrow (a cow mastitis medication available at many livestock supply stores) but there is reason to suspect it may be effective.
DrO
Member:
cathy33

Posted on Monday, May 9, 2011 - 6:03 am:

Thank you Dr O and Leslie,

My youngster became quite poorly in himself yesterday with a temperature of 40, not eating etc. Lots of oedema on his belly. The sKin disease seems to have gone systemic and my vet has put him on Baytril antibiotics plus Fynadine anti-inflamatory.

Despite my best efforts, I was unable to help him fight it on his own. We have taken bloods to see if there is anything else going on to weaken his immune system and make him more susceptible. Has anyone else had any trouble like this?

I don't think "Tomorrow" is available here in the UK. I will see if I can buy it online somewhere.

Thank you for your help

Cathy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, May 9, 2011 - 7:37 am:

The problem Cathy is we don't know exactly what is going on. Is this a primary Dermatophilus infection or one complicated by another systemic infection? Comparisions like this are often misleading when used to draw conclusions. In general Dermatophilus does not cause fever but severe cases certainly have the potential and yes edema can be a feature of severe cases on the body or legs.

Some strains of Dermatophilus have been resistant to enrofloxacin (Baytril). If you are not finding a rapid response I would consider switching to a penicillin in combination with a aminoglycoside like gentamycin.
DrO
Member:
helenw

Posted on Monday, May 9, 2011 - 9:05 am:

This sounds very like a case we had where I keep my horse. The patient was a 28 year old gelding and unfortunately has a pleasant but inexperienced and ditsy owner. The horse was left day and night in the same rug for about 3 months and developed nasty painful scabs under his mane and what looked like rainscald where the edges of the rug were chaffing on his skin. He was also clearly under the weather so I guess some infection had set in. The vet advised he must be kept in on wet days (this was during a period of unsettled winter weather here in the UK), the air allowed to get to his skin and the scabs be softened and removed and then the raw places treated with a cream - I can't remember if this was an antibiotic or steroid cream, plus antibiotic powders for a week and bute. I expect she gave him an antibiotic injection too. The recovery process was rather longer than intended as the owner failed to take a lot of notice and the horse went out in the rain on several days and she didn't follow the instructions with the cream properly either . He did perk up in himself though, so the antibiotics did their job. If it had been me I'd have had the rug professionally cleaned and disinfected too. I know you say he is hard to stable, but I think you may just have to put up with his protests for a few days.
Member:
cathy33

Posted on Monday, May 9, 2011 - 12:59 pm:

Thank you Dr O and Helen,

I can't believe the speed at which the infection took hold. I have been spending up to 3 hours a day trying to deal with it. My vet says he is better off out and moving to help disperse the oedema and there is no rain forecast at the moment. Last time he was stabled he jumped out and really hurt himself, so I think I would prefer not to unless I have to. I could put up a grill but think that this would stress him out.

Fortunately the Finadyne has brought his temperature down so he seems a bit happier in himself - the oedema is still quite bad but hopefully will be improved by the morning.

The blood test didn't show anything too anomalous going on. Slightly raised white blood cell count but still within the bounds of normal. Liver/kidney function all fine. My vet said that if he was being picky the red blood cell count was slightly low. He thinks we have caught the systemic infection at its' early stages. I assume this means that he is not fighting some other sort of systemic illness.

I will keep an eye on the antibiotic to check it is working. Have been slightly worried about using Baytril on a young horse but have read your article and my vet says he would only be concerned if my youngster was less that a year old.

I'm not sure whether I should be guarding against ulcers with he anti-inflammatories he's being given though?

Many thanks for our help,

CATHY
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 6:16 am:

The incidence of significant gastric ulcers when NSAID's are used according to directions is low.
DrO
Member:
cathy33

Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 9:24 pm:

Dear Dr O,

My youngster has been on the Baytril for 3 full days now and is showing no signs of improvement, infact the skin condition is getting worse. He feels better in himself but I think that is the Finadyne. There is still a lot of oedema on the belly and now also on the legs.

Do you think we should switch to to penicillen? Also, could you let me know what Gentmycin is?

My vet feels we should persevere with Baytril but I am doubtful it will work. He is coming to take some skin scrapings tomorrow but says he has never seen anything like this before!!

Many thanks,
Cathy
Member:
lsweeney

Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 9:47 pm:

I'm going to reprint what I sent to the Friesian list that I am on just in case it might help you:


This is just a success story that I thought might help others.

My older Arab mare usually gets some rain rot through the winter and
into spring. I usually just pick off the scabs and then as she sheds
out, it goes away. No big deal.

Well, this one year she got something on her pastern that was thinning
her hair. I wondered if I had inadvertantly moved the bacteria there
since I probably handled her rain rot areas and then picked up her
feet. Anyway, at first I didn't worry much about it. Figured it
would fix itself as we moved into summer. Well, it didn't. The hair
was getting thinner, the skin redder (it was a white sock), and then I
started noticing the coronet band starting to show signs that it was
getting involved and it was also moving up the leg.

So I got serious about it. The vet took some skin scrapings and found
nothing.

She gave me some medicated stuff with Tea oil I believe that I put on
half ass. Then more seriously as nothing was impacting this.

Eventually I was scrubbing with Betadine and treating daily, and finally
making a dent in it, but if I left it alone, it would come back.

I got over to Horseadvice.com and read an exhaustive post on what to do
for scratches. Hundreds of people writing in with their secret recipe.
I decided to take all of the home remedies and throw them together.

So this is what I did:

First soak the leg in Betadine until all of the scabs are soft.
Remove all of the scabs.
Then put some kind of disinfectant salve on the area - I used a Novasome
cream.
Then I took Desitin and lathered it all over the area - thick.

Now the beauty of the Desitin is that it is so thick, it sticks to the
leg, and stays there. So I could leave it like that for a week, and
while it would pick up dust and crap, it never let the skin see the
light of day, which killed off the bacteria or fungus or whatever I was
battling. Also, since this was very time consuming, if my life got in
the way of the treatment, it was o.k. I could do the soaking and
cleanup once a week.

So I take my horses to Point Reyes, California for a few days. We have
a good time. The final day, we go to the beach, and I let my horses
play in a fresh water pool close to the beach. They splashed around in
it.

I get home.

The next day, all three of my horses are having some skin issues on
their legs. My Arab was the worse. Her legs were all stocked up,
with crud starting from the fetlock all the way up to the belly.
Nikki, our older Friesian was showing signs of something that was rain
rot-like up her back legs all the way to her stifle joint. The
youngest horse, Myntje, didn't have any open skin issues, but was
itching like crazy. It was like the youngest horse with the strongest
immune system was doing the best fighting it. And the oldest horse was
being taken over.

I almost sat down and cried since I had just won the battle with the one
small spot on my Arab's pastern, and now I had 8+ whole legs to
battle. I didn't know if I could afford that much Desitin, which isn't
cheap when you are ordering it in volumes. Plus the regimen that was
going to be required to treat it.

It was also becoming clear that my annual Pt. Reyes trip may be where my
horses were picking this stuff up. There was another couple who had
their horses in at the vet for the same thing after the same trip.

I found generic versions of both the Desitin and Novasome salves. I
bought gallons of the stuff.

I then proceeded to take a 1/2 a day of soaking, picking scabs, and
slopping my creams and solutions on their legs.

It worked like a charm. I killed the stuff on all of the horses.

I have heard stories of people considering putting their horses down
because they couldn't beat this stuff.

So this is my success story.

It may be particularly useful to Friesians, that don't want to shave
their legs. While I'm sure you will have a gooey, hairy mess, I bet
you could get rid of it without shaving their hair.
Member:
cathy33

Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 3:05 am:

Thank you Laurie. I am hoping the scrapings take today will reveal what bug it is but it will take until Tues next week to get th results. Your treatment seems to have worked amazingly and it's so good to hear your success story. Do you think I can get the medication in the UK?

I am really worried now though as he is shaking, arching his back and digging holes. He still has an appetite though and this morning his temperature is normal (it was a bit raised last night). His DrOppings seem normal.

Dr O, do you think the back arching and shivering could be pain related? Is it a sign that there is a more serious underlying condition? I'm wondering if he is eating something poisonous in the field but this is unlikely as many horses have grazed on it with no problem.

Many thanks,
Cathy

Many thank,
Cathy
Member:
lsweeney

Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 6:34 am:

I think Desitin is Zinc Oxide. So you should be able to find it. Betadine is an iodine scrub. The Nolvasan Ointment is a disinfectant cream. I think the zinc oxide is probably the most important as it really encases the skin. It is the same stuff that they put on baby's bottoms to prevent/treat diaper rash. It also traps the other medication that I put on first. What you could do is try my treatment on an area and see if it helps - it shouldn't hurt. I will tell you that my older mare's legs were all stocked up after we came back from the coast. So whatever the skin infection was, it had a significant impact. And it happened quick/overnight. I never found out what it was specifically.

Here was a generic of desitin:
https://www.drugstore.com/balmex-diaper-rash-cream-with-11-3-zinc-oxide/qxp84977? trxp1=35873

Here is a cheaper version of the Nolvasan Ointment that I used:
https://www.valleyvet.biz/ct_detail.html?pgguid=E78328F7-84C7-42D9-AE16-276AAF42B 8FC&item=15330&ccd=IFP003&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=free&utm_content=15330

Keep us posted.
Member:
cathy33

Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 4:44 pm:

Thank you so much Laurie. I will try and track the treatment stuff down.

Harley had his skin scrapes taken today plus 2 skin biopsies. I should get the results next Tues/Wed. In the meantime, my vet has put him on Penicillen as well as the Baytril. Fingers crossed that it helps him as he is looking SO miserable. I am still bathing him everyday with Maleseb but am not making much impact so far and the oedema is just as bad.

Thank you again,
Cathy
Member:
cathy33

Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 1:52 pm:

Well today was awful. Harley was much worse this morning, in lots of pain, shaking, high temp and loads of oedema. I decided to take him to hospital and the diagnosis could be pemphigus (not sure this is spelt right) which is an autoimmune condition. Basically his immune system is attacking his skin and the prognosis is guarded. They have taken some more biopsies to confirm the diagnosis and put him straight on steroids. There is another treatment called Gold Salt which has had better results when used in combination with the steroids. Do you know anything about this Dr O? I am trying to find out as much information as possible so that I can make some informed choices.

Poor fella, I can't bear the thought of losing him.

Any advice gratefully appreciated, as always.

Cathy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 7:19 pm:

If I were treating a severe case of Dermatophilus I would be using penicillin and gentamycin. You can read about both these antibiotics in detail at HorseAdvice.com » Treatments and Medications for Horses » Antibiotics and Antimicrobials.
DrO
Member:
lsweeney

Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 7:20 pm:

I'm sorry to hear that.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2011 - 11:29 am:

I am sorry Cathy, I missed the post on the possible pemphigus. We have an article on this and other autoimmune diseases and there treatments including the ones you mention. You can find it at, HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Hair and Coat Problems / Itching / Irritated Skin » Autoimmune Skin Disorders: Bullous and Pemphigus.
DrO
Member:
cathy33

Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2011 - 2:16 pm:

Hi,
I am still waiting for the results of the biopsies but the hospital vet seems pretty sure of the diagnosis. Harley is being treated with Dex and has responded well so far. If his diagnosis is confirmed I will start up a new post under Bullous and Pemphigus.
Many thanks,
Cathy
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