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Discussion on Should I have our Friesian tested for PSSM?
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 7:53 pm:
Please refer to this past history where she went into Kidney failure:
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/20444.html
Fast forward 7 years with this horse. I am now experiencing frequent Thumps with her. We are more weekend riders, but she is out 24/7 on 3 acres, so she is not stalled and does get to move around quite a bit during the week.
She is 14 years old. We trail ride, and she is carrying my husband who is about 250 lbs. We only walk. We camp a lot. She is typically ok on day one, but as the days go on, she will be more at risk for Thumping. She tends not to drink as much as the other horses, and I have had to entice her drinking with apples or whatever, and I will spike it with electrolytes. This typically helps.
A long trail ride for us would be 10 miles. Typically, we are doing about 5 to 7 miles. Again, only at the walk. So we are not talking about heavy endurance riding.
She has had some weight on her, but we have DrOpped it by changing from a 4 gain oat hay to an 80/20 Grass/Alfalfa diet. She gets a few handful of oats, with LMF Senior and some LMF vitamins as a supplement. Maybe 2 lbs all together.
She has had some bouts with allergies (hives), that have been manageable. I think she was eating some questionable plants in the pasture, but that seems to have stopped.
Shes does experience a hoof abscess at least once a year.
Ever since her kidney failure, I treat this horse with kit gloves and she gets nothing other than worming. No bute. No antibiotics. Nothing that would hurt the kidney.
So look what I stumbled upon on the Friesian registry site (below). In reviewing the symptoms, I do notice her sweating and breathing heavier than the other horses, but she is also carrying a heavier load. Most of the symptoms look like tying up symptoms, but Thumps is a precursor to Tying up, and since I'm monitoring her, we don't push her that far. I'm really wondering if I might be dealing with a PSSM issue?
PSSM Education
When is a horse a PSSM Suspect?
Symptoms of PSSM:
“ Lazy”
Reluctance to move
Muscle stiffness
Shifting lameness
Muscle pain & cramping (hind quarters)
Tense up in abdomen
Muscle tremors (flank)
Reluctant to move (stop)
Camped out stance
Sweating(excessive)
Quick, shallow breathing
Increased heart rate
Discolored urine(brown)
Recumbent (down)
Kidney failure
If after a thorough veterinary examination, PSSM cannot be excluded, have a muscle biopsy performed (from hindquarter) by your veterinarian and have, he/ she submit the biopsy sample for diagnostic evaluation to:
Dr. Stephanie Valberg, DVM PhD, University of Minnesota, Minnesota
Or
Dr. Beth Valentine, DVM, PhD, Oregon State University, Oregon
If the muscle biopsy is positive on PSSM collect hair sample:
Minimum 30 hairs with roots
Pull hair from the mane base(withers) or tail base( tail implant)
Hair sample has to be dry ( wet hair = rot and fungus)
Send hair sample, a copy of registration papers, and a copy of positive PSSM biopsy results to:
Drs. Beth A. Valentine and Stephanie Valberg are fore-runners in the symptomatology, management, and research of PSSM affected horses.
They have helped many horse owners to manage their PSSM positive horses with low carbohydrate and high fat diets.
Drs. Beth A, Valentine & Stephanie Valberg are the pillars where your PSSM committee builds on to help the Friesian horse owners with affected Friesian horses and our Friesian horse breed as a whole.
Dr. Beth Valentine, DVM, PhD –www.ruralheritage.com
Dr Stephanie Valberg, DVM, PhD – www.cvm.umn.edu/umec/home.html
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 12:27 am:
Anybody there?
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 1:04 am:
Hi Laurie.
I have no experience with PSSM but I am watching to see what kind of answers you get. Hmmmm, let me try knocking a little louder for you and see if you get a response.
Hay, this is a very interesting question but way over my head....anyone care to join in? Dr.O, this one is probably most suited for your expertise......I don't have a clue.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 1:46 am:
I known nothing about PSSM either. I am wondering however, what the hair samples are for? With humans I have seen some pretty "shady" stuff "diagnosed" via hair samples so am a bit leery. What is discovered that wouldn't be covered with blood work? Just curious.
Also, if this mare has had kidney trouble I am surprised you are feeing any alfalfa at all. It is my understanding that alfalfa is very hard on the kidneys. Am I wrong on this? I had a mare years ago that had some kidney issues and at that time was told to feed her grass hay only, with beet pulp, rice bran and supplements. I'm just curious.
Also, how big is this mare? I ask because commercial "wranglers" like those that own the horses and run the rides at such places as Bryce Canyon, Grand Canyon, etc. set 250 lbs as the outside limit on weight. If you weigh more than that, you can't ride. However, I will say the rides you are going on sure shouldn't be very stressful unless you are riding straight up a hill. 5-7 miles at a walk isn't much of a distance to carry even a heavy person unless the horse is very small.
I hope someone that knows something, or Dr.O, will chip in here and you get some answers. I'm basically a curious bystander.
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Member:
digger89
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Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 7:20 am:
Hi! My horse was tested for PSSM a few years ago. The hair samples are for genetic testing, it is not one of the shady tests you read about. The treatment for most of these disorders seems to be about the same - turnout 24/7 if possible, a low starch - high fat diet, and consiste
nt exercise. When I increased exercise (or even turnout) I would do it very gradually. Dakota never had any classic tying up episodes but was very sore and his muscle enzymes were elevated. The enzymes are measured in the blood so that should be checked too by your vet. Good luck! Sarah
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 5:02 pm:
The main symptoms that I'm looking at is that she has been in kidney failure 2004, which may be completely unrelated as she was ill, running a fever, maybe dehydrated, treated with a combination of antibiotics and bute (hard on the kidneys), and we were out camping so she had endured a trailer ride and a trail ride, before we noticed that she was off - shivering due to a fever. So it may have been a perfect storm for the kidney failure, but.....
Over the last couple of years I am now dealing with "thumps". I keep thinking that she has not been conditioned properly for what she is doing, but then I have to remember that we have a 23 old foundered Arab that we are ponying, who is skipping along, not sweating, showing no signs of being close to being tired, and is wondering why we are taking so long. (Attached)
So she will thump if it was a hot day, sat in the trailer too long, her first day out after sitting over winter, we rode a little longer (at the walk) than normal. 
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 6:33 pm:
More symptoms: She does have a flaky, dandruffy coat in the summer. (Not normal - something I haven't seen on my other horses and I wondered what was lacking in her diet to cause it?)
She is the dominant mare and definitely has an attitude.
She has silent heats from what I can tell. Across 13 years, I have only seen her visably in season a handful of times. (But she is out with only mares.)
She is bitchy and cinchy even if you are putting a fluffy bareback pad on her.
She has been on barley, oats, wheat and rye hay for several years and then for the last couple of years, 80/20 grass/alfalfa. She gets LMF senior/supplements.
She is an easy keeper, but is not cresty.
She runs hot and cold energy-wise. I have seen her just dogged. Walking yards behind the other horses, only to pick up the pace on the way home. And yet at other times, a handful. Weather plays a big part in this.
I found this related to Thumps:
*Hypothyroldism, thumps, bad attitude.
According to Dr. Ridgeway, the excess calcium in an alfalfa diet interferes with parathyroid function and can lead to "thumps", muscle cramps and tying up.
Excess calcium interferes with absorption of iodine, a mineral necessary for proper thyroid function. Many horses on alfalfa become hypothyroid - the thyroid gets lazy. Symptoms can be a cresty neck, a horse that gets overweight very easily, develops dry and flaky skin, etc. Some breeds show hypothyroidism by becoming very "cinchy" and skin-sensitive, getting cranky when being groomed, or losing topline muscle and hair condition. Mares that are hypothyroid often become infertile.
Horses that are hypothyroid may be very plump and shiny, but are unhealthy. They are simply retaining water in the tissues, and this inhibits proper movement. Ask any woman with P.M.S. how she feels when she is retaining water! If your horse is cranky and belligerent, resists bending and flexing, is very lazy or reacts emotionally, it may be hypothyroid.
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 7:11 pm:
Sara W. - The hair samples are probably for genetic testing, so that they can isolate perhaps the stallions that may be passing the trait on? The Dutch are very scientific and strict with who gets to breed, and pretty much know which stallion passes what. All studs have a foal composite which will tell you what they throw, including who will throw white, red genes, etc. They know who throws tall, short, toes in/out, hair, no hair, nice head vs. clunky heads. It's pretty cool. They also review your mare's conformation, so you can match your mare with the right stud to offset her flaws.
Regarding alfalfa: I have a foundered mare, so I have pretty much stayed away from alfalfa. They were all gaining weight on the 4 grain. So I tried the 80/20 grass hay which they are losing weight on. There is not much alfalfa in it - just enough to make it more palatable.
The mare is 16.1 hands and about 1,200 to 1,300 lbs. I am conscious of my husband's size. It's the reason I own a Friesian. (They were bred to carry the knights in armor.) You can get a sense for his size vs. hers in the attached picture. He has a large australian saddle too. So she is definitely carrying a load.
The Thumps may be a combination of condition, heat, trailer ride, what she is carrying and dehydration. What's interesting is that I have a fatter Friesian that is younger, and isn't impacted at all under similar conditions.
She has varying degrees of thumping. When I very first discovered it, it was after a trailer ride in 105 heat, after a camping trip. You could see it from a distance. Her whole body shook. Now I know what to look for, I put my hand on her flanks and I can feel it, even if it is ever so subtle. Even with the vast ranges, she never looks distressed. She is eating, drinking, hanging out - you would never guess that her body is having any kind of an issue.
I've been around horses for 40 years, and I have never seen this or heard of it.
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 7:12 pm:
Sarah S. - How involved is the testing? Cost?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 7:34 pm:
Hello Laurie,
I think the excessive calcium from alfalfa leading to hypothyroidism and what that might have to do with hypoparathyroidism is terribly confused and does not have much to do with your Thumps. I do wonder if the past episode of renal disease has led to altered calcium metabolism. You can learn more about thumps at HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Muscle & Tendon Diseases » Hypocalcemia, Thumps & Tetany.
I do not think the Thumps are related to PSSM but if you are having other symptoms of generalized muscle disease you might consider following the recommendations on diagnosis outlined in the article associated with this discussion area.
DrO
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 7:40 pm:
Hi Laura,
I haven't heard the word thumps in years. But, my recollection of it was that it was caused in part by dehydration and an upset in the horses natural chemical balance of electrolytes.
My own mare went through a period where her coat was dull, she was very bitchy, did not like to have her girth tightened etc.and she was racing very poorly. I couldn't get a shine on her coat unless she had a ton of supplements including electrolytes and a digestive conditioner ( Succeed). I went back to the drawing board.
I started changing my management practices, made sure I was feeding mainly forage based products and I also made sure my concentrate complemented the hay I was feeding making my mares entire ration balanced. Guess what, no more dull coat, no more supplements(except garlic for the flies). She has calmed down considerably,but her performance hasn't suffered in fact she is much more focused on what she does and is able to finish her miles with much more punch. She can't blow out a match when she's done training, (she used to blow like a freight train), she cools out much better as well.
So, I would definitely start by examining your horse's diet and making sure its balanced, and by balanced I mean not only looking at the senior feed, but look at the protein content of the hay and any other supplements you feed.
By the way, I feed Thrive and a grass hay and that's it. It has made my life extremely simple to the point my husband can now feed my horses and I do not have to worry about what concoction of supplements I need to put together each day for them. I finally found my simple solution.
Anyway, I wish you the best of luck, hopefully it is a feed management issue and that is the solution to your problem because that is a simple solution although it took me a while to find it.
Rachelle
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Member:
digger89
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Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 8:05 pm:
Laurie - the muscle biopsy was done by my local vet with sedation. A section of muscle about 1"x1"x1" was sent to the university of Minnesota. The vet call, procedure, overnight shipping, and examination cost about $500 (2 years ago). He was off work for a few days, then ridden at the walk for a few days, then back to work. The hair examination is easy of course, just pull them and send. I can't find the cost for that test, sorry. Sarah
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 8:07 pm:
Now that you mention it, that is the exact number of hairs the AHA requires when doing genetic testing for registration.
And, your husband doesn't look overly heavy for her. She is a nice looking mare, btw. Not at all "clunky" like some of the Fresians I've seen in our area.
I'll be interested to see how you progress with her. Thumps is a condition I've heard of and read about, but thankfully, not one I have personally experience with, nor is PSSM.
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 8:18 pm:
Thank you Dr. O. It does make sense that the kidney issue may be involved. I guess that is why I reacted to the the combination of tying up symptoms, kidney issues and PSSM.
Any feed/supplement recommendations.
I will say that giving her electrolytes before/after exercise has helped. I also put apples in her water, wet her hay, and make sloppy mashes to get water in her when we travel. That helps as well.
The other interesting problem I have with her is that I got a 3rd horse. Apparently, I had two horses before, but now I have a "herd". Once I got a herd, then I needed a leader, and she is it. Her once beloved stable-mate, became one of her subjects, and she was brutal with her and the new horse. No one could share food anymore. She gets ALL of the food. When camping, I no longer can get away with one pen, everyone has to be separated.
Now where this impacts the thumps, is that she will no longer drink on the trail any more. Why? Because she has to watch for predators for her "herd". She takes her leadership position VERY seriously.
Interestingly, I found out if I get off of my horse and stand next to her, she will drink. She apparently views me dominant over my husband, and will delegate the herd to me while she is drinking. ;-)
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 8:20 pm:
My husband looks great on this horse, but I will tell you that he needs a big horse. He is 6'4", and he dwarfed all of the big quarter horses I stuck him on. The saddle had to be custom made not for the horse, but his thighs.
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 8:21 pm:
Do you like the motorcycle helmet?
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 10:03 pm:
LOL Love the helmet! It probably does a better job of protection than the horse versions. Was hubby a pro ball player in a past life! A big guy.
Ah yes, herd dynamics! I'm glad she at least feels you are up to the job of look-out!
We used to have a Timber Wolf cross; she was mine before I married Lonnie. She accepted me as "alpha dog" and minded very good, but when Lonnie told her to do something, even after she'd known him for 15 yrs, she would flatten her ears ( "I can't hear you!" ) and go her own way!
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2011 - 1:37 pm:
His mother wouldn't let him play football. ;-)
I was totally caught off guard by the herd thing. Wow. The 3rd horse that I added was a yearling. I put her in a pipe corral in the middle of the pasture for them to get acquainted. OMG. The older Friesian would bare her teeth and smash her whole body and chest into the fencing. The little 14.1 arab would stand next to her, pinning her ears, tossing her head, and then say: "What she said!"
The yearling had significant moxy. She would just glare at them or ignore them. No submissive stuff. And that is who she is. On the trail, she is first, and everyone follows her. She will one day be the herd leader.
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2011 - 1:42 pm:
Sarah S. Owwwww. That's a big chunk of muscle.
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2011 - 1:47 pm:
Dr. O. - beside feeding recommendations, what do you think the risks are breeding this mare who is a maiden mare?
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Member:
digger89
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Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2011 - 1:55 pm:
I have to say that Dakota never turned a hair over the large biopsy. Of course since then he has managed to turn a lot of my hairs gray He is currently taking the next 6 - 12 months off any work and barefoot to see if his navicular pain will respond. We already tried steroid injections, Tildren, kinds of shoes, 3 kinds of pads, stall rest, previcox, IRAP injections, and shock wave therapy. 
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2011 - 2:48 pm:
I'm a big fan of barefoot. I was able to ride my 23 yr old Arab for 15 years who had foundered. I do her feet myself, because it was hard to get a shoer out for two barefoot feet every few weeks of so to touch up.
I use EZ boots when I ride.
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Member:
digger89
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Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2011 - 3:02 pm:
I don't want to nerve him if I don't have to. I have read some very impressive things about healing when barefoot so I am hoping for the best.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2011 - 11:31 am:
Hello Laurie,
We make some recommendations in the article on Thumps I reference above.
DrO
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2011 - 6:05 pm:
Yeah - I saw that. I think I'm pretty close with her feed.
So my next question, would I be insane to try to breed this horse with past kidney failure, a thumps tendency and is a 14 yr old maiden mare?
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2011 - 6:37 pm:
I can give you my opinion; no. No only might the foal inherit traits you wouldn't want, IMO it could "tip the scale" in some way ( hormones can affect insulin levels as well as other things) Why would you want to breed her?
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Monday, May 16, 2011 - 12:51 pm:
She has some of the characteristics that I would be looking for.
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Monday, May 16, 2011 - 4:20 pm:
Also, the real question is what is really her problem? It could have been as simple as a bad combination of drugs and circumstances that put her into kidney failure, and the thumping could be that she just needs more conditioning to carry my husband around.
While this is going to sound very cold, I have two Friesians. One is 6 and healthy but doesn't have much size for my husband. Since even healthy horses can be lost having a foal, I really don't want to lose her. The horse that is having issues as a riding horse, who will probably throw a taller, larger foal, is closer to the end of her usability and lifespan. If I were to lose her, while we are emotionally attached to her, I would be in pretty much in the same boat - needing a horse for my husband, instead of needing to replace two horses.
And Dr. O, I have talked a lot of people out of breeding since it is such a crap shoot. However, these are Friesians, and a quality, broke Friesian goes for around $20K+. So for about $2,000 - $3,000, I can (hopefully) put a foal on the ground. Since I break them myself, you would have to add several years of feed/vet bills before I have a horse to ride.
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Monday, May 16, 2011 - 4:22 pm:
A quality yearling is going to go for around $12K - $15K.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Monday, May 16, 2011 - 11:35 pm:
Laurie, I'm afraid this will sound cold also; A quality foal does not come from a mare whose health is possibly compromised. Until you know for sure what, if anything, is wrong with your mare, why would you risk breeding her? I would NE ER breed anything but a healthy mare. VERY few mares are lost through foaling. I bred for over 20 years, several foals a year, and never lost a mare or even came close. I know a lot of breeders, and know of only one or two mares that were lost. One was a mini whose lines were known to have problems. We lost one foal, born prematurely and after a necropsy we still had no idea what happened.
If a mare has problems of any kind it will be more difficult for her to get in foal and maintain the pregnancy. And, since you don't know what is wrong with the mare, you could be passing on to the foal her problems. How much is a foal with a genetic predisposition to diabetes, or breathing problems worth?
Lastly, I have to say I don't understand why you are so desperate to have a foal from this mare that you would be willing to sacrifice her. Are her bloodlines extremely rare?
Btw, I wouldn't breed a mare that had SOME of the characteristics I liked. She'd better have all or most of them. Remember, her traits will be diluted by the stallion's gene pool and you don't always get the gene combo you want. You are breeding ALL of her genes to ALL of his genes.
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2011 - 2:56 am:
"Until you know for sure what, if anything, is wrong with your mare, why would you risk breeding her?"
Well, that is the point. I'm not sure that there is anything wrong with her. She had an issue with her kidneys 7 years ago. If she has had any issues in the past 7 years, off feed, whatever, I have had bloodwork done to make sure that she was not having another kidney issue, and her bloodwork has come back fine. I have had the vet take bloodwork after her first thumping incident, and it was fine.
She has been healthy over the last 7 years, with the exception of this occasional bout with Thumps, but only where she is hot, dehydrated, and possibly did too much.
Remember, this thread was started because the Friesian registry had information on PSSM, a disease with some genetic origins and it referenced kidney failure. I was just asking if it made sense to have her tested for it.
I'm sure that the percentage of mares lost due to foaling is low, but it is not non-existant. I participate on a Friesian list, and there are mares that have had issues and died from foaling or complications with pregnancy.
I have already raised two foals from birth, so I'm familiar with the process.
I have two high-quality Friesian mares. One just happens to be 16.1 and the other is 15.1. There is nothing wrong with either of them relative to qualities for breeding, other than one is larger than the other, and one is older. The fact is that no horse is perfect, and even if it was, you don't have any guarantees that the mare is going to duplicate themselves.
I was/am contemplating breeding one of them, and I don't know how much risk there would be with a mare that went into kidney failure 7 years ago, and has issues when exercised with a heavy man on her back, but otherwise doesn't have a problem hanging out in the pasture.
Your e-mail seems pretty charged in that I don't think I'm "desperate", nor is this an emergency. In fact, since I'm concerned about losing a mare, I would say that I'm looking at this quite conservatively since you feel that death from pregnancy is quite rare.
If I read Dr. O's post on "Preparing Your Mare for Breeding" he states:
"It is a little risky for both the mare and your wallet."
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2011 - 8:38 pm:
Without examining the mare I could not pass judgement on risks above those every pregnant mare faces. But if she passes a good physical, laboratory evaluation, and is PSSM negative, I don't see information here that specifically contraindicates pregnancy.
DrO
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2011 - 11:59 pm:
OK Interesting. I didn't know if just the past kidney failure alone would put her at a higher risk. I'm taking her and my other horses in tomorrow to have their vaccinations as a preemptive strike on the EHV-1 virus. I'm going to discuss her with the vet. I will post what they have to say.
Thank you!
Laurie
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 4:06 pm:
Didn't you post in another thread that you go to Loomis Vet Clinic? If so, they have a great reputation and excellent vets. They should be able to advise you and help you come to a decision.
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 2:53 am:
I talked to our local vet today. He looked at her past blood work and said it looked great. We had to dope her up for her teeth floating, and he checked the blood work first. She did fine today.
If I decide to move forward, she will go to a stallion station and have a significant once over to make sure that everything is in working order. One of the vets at Loomis has a stallion station, I believe.
He also felt that I should have more symptoms for PSSM.
She is also a maiden mare, and may be difficult to get in foal.
A lot to chew on.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 10:00 am:
Cindy Morgan, wife of Dr. Morgan,runs Mt. Pleasant Stallion Station. She's been doing it since the 80's. Very professional facility with people who know what they are doing.
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Monday, Feb 20, 2012 - 3:55 pm:
Recent bloodwork that Dr. O says looks good from another post on this mare.
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