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Discussion on Help! Persistent leg sores and swelling, all 4 legs... | |
Author | Message |
New Member: stefano |
Posted on Sunday, Jul 24, 2011 - 7:01 pm: Let me start with a little background...I have a warmblood gelding, an oldenburg that is 14 years old. I bought him 2 months ago, and he was in very poor physical condition. He seemed bright in spirits and besides being thin, the only thing else that was noticed as that he had 2 circular sores, about the size of a quarter, on both front fetlocks. I figured it was irritation from the stall mats he was on, or something the flies were bothering...didnt think much of it. Brought him home, put him on a senior feed and introduced alfalfa hay and free choice grass hay. He started putting on some weight, about 75# over the first month, but the wounds on his front legs didnt heal. They started getting swollen, and ulcer-looking. No scabs, even dressing and wrapping them they just turned pink...then oozed clear serum like substance again. This was approx a month after I got him. Then, he went completely off grain. 2 days after off grain, his rear legs at the very back, outside heel bulbs, swelled up overnight and bust open just like the front legs. He went very lame. I gave him some banamine and took him to the vet. vet did a blood panel and said other than a slight elevated WBC, seemed normal. He said I was dealing with a case of scratches and to treat it with salves, and start him on SMZs orally. We also did a 2x/day gastroguard treatment for ulcers. Still no eating. Just barely picking at grain. Very dull and lethargic looking. The folds behind his elbows swelled and split like his legs did. He developed ulcer sores on his hip protrusions as well...despite a heavily bedded stall...the swelling in his legs was so bad and red hot...he would lay down most of the time. after 2 weeks of the horse wasting away, I decided to put him back on banamine. It took the swelling down and the SMZs were over with...so I gave him 2x PPG 30 CCs. The swelling stayed down and he started eating again. By now we were off of the gastro/ulcer guard, off the SMZs, and after a week off the PPG. Its been 2 months, and hes eating and gaining weight, shine is back in his coat, and he is acting 'normal' the sores on the backs of his heel bulbs(outside of both back legs, baout the size of a fifty cent piece, like you cut off a piece of his heel bulb... and the front fetlocks have a swollen frontal portion but the leg itself isnt swollen...and still has the ulcerative/non healing wounds... doesnt matter if I leave them open and put salve(silver sulfadine cream) on, or wrap with pillow quilt stable wraps, or sweat with furacin sweat, or anything Ive tried...they stay the same! He is not lame on them, but they look horrible. They weep a blood like serum, clearish to tinged red, but not all the time. The wraps that I use soak the stuff up and they reak of death smelling infection...but its not puss, and not scabbing over one bit. Have NO idea, and the vets around here are stumped as well. We are in North Carolina foothills, no swamps here! |
New Member: stefano |
Posted on Sunday, Jul 24, 2011 - 7:04 pm: |
Member: paul303 |
Posted on Sunday, Jul 24, 2011 - 10:28 pm: Oh, dear, my only offering is: is he on pasture that has clover in it? Or was he on pasture with clover before you got him? I treated for scratches for 2 years before the condition was linked to white alsike clover in the pasture. Might there be clover in your hay? My horses were photosensitive ( sensitive to the sun ) for about 2 years after after the clover exposure. I treat my pasture for clover ( and my hayfield ). Since I've eliminated the clover, the issues have cleared up.This might not be your problem, but check out the issues that alsike clover can cause. Anywhere my horses had light colored hair, they got sensitive to the sun. Sores, skin splitting, oozing and cracking, stocking up and painful. |
Member: mrose |
Posted on Monday, Jul 25, 2011 - 1:04 am: When I saw the pics of the front fetlocks, my first thought was burns from the mats also, but pretty weird about the rear legs. Looking for simplist reasons first, there is no way he is banging himself with his feet when trying to get up is there? To me, this doesn't look like typical scratches and I think for the clover reaction you have to have white on the horse, but am not positive. This doesn't look like that either imo. I'll be very interested in what this turns out to be. I hope you'll keep us posted and I wish you luck treating it.Has there been swelling anywhere else? Heat in the legs? I know when a horse has a vascular inflamation it can cause swelling and cracking and oozing. I think it's called hemographica purpora, or pupora hemographica. I've had experience with it, but it's been a long time ago and I'm not postitive of the name. Do a search and you can find it on HA. My horse had lower leg swelling also and one had swelling even up into his groin area. Just a thought. |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Jul 25, 2011 - 8:11 am: Welcome Stefano,My first thought is that the sores appear, and there location supports this notion, to be scars from poorly healed decubital sores. These are sores caused by the pressure of prolonged pressure as may occur during recumbency. In this scenerio the sores are not the cause of the cellulitis in the legs but the result of recurring bouts of cellulitis. During these bouts the horse lays down a lot resulting in repeated trauma and over time the tissues are no longer healing well. It may be that now that they have formed they become portals for bacterial invasion, increasing the frequency of bouts of cellulitis. There is not enough skin to remove them and your best shot is to hope they can continue to heal further to the point they do not weep serum. Part of this will include cleaning and protecting the areas from trauma and contamination. If the bandages are smelling badly it indicates they need changing more frequently. I would consider cleaning with a mild soap and water, drying thoroughly and putting soft dry bandages on. Any signs of another bout of cellulitis needs to be attacked aggressivly with what appeared to work best last time: flunixin and procaine pen G. DrO |
New Member: stefano |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 27, 2011 - 8:22 pm: Hi, thank you for the advice! He hasnt been down though, or recumbent...hes up and lively! I watch him with a video system at the barn. Hes in a heavily bedded sawdust stall as well. Now, Im treating each leg with a new 'treatment' to see which responds...if any. One has vetrycin. One has scarlet oil, one has Nu Stock, one has SSD. All are taped and wrapped with diapers to absorb moisture tonight and keep them free from flies and debris. Who knows. I just want them gone for the horses' sake! |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Jul 28, 2011 - 7:38 am: stefano, I am not sure you understood me above. You write above that while the legs are swollen: "he would lay down most of the time". I think the past episodes of cellulitis has led to these sores and each time he goes through a new episode they get a little worse.DrO |
New Member: stefano |
Posted on Thursday, Jul 28, 2011 - 8:26 am: the thing that confuses me though, is in the beginning when I first got this horse and he only had the 2 sores on his front legs, he didnt lay down much more than any other horse, and if he did, he was in a deep bedded stall with those places wrapped. Having the fronts wrapped didnt help with the healing process at all, they stayed the same, the back legs swelled up and he developed the sores at his heel bulbs, both the same day, and that is when he started laying down a lot...when his legs were swollen with edema and hot and my vet didnt want him on the banamine. He layed down for a few hours in the day, then would get up and just stand in the same place. after the griseofulvin paste, the SMZs and the SSD cream not making much of a dent in the progress, he didnt seem to be responding at all, and was totally off of his grain. He was very lethargic and DrOpped a lot of weight. After I did what my vet suggested treatment wise is when I decided ulcers or not I needed him up and at least eating, so did the banamine and penicillin. The sores never got any smaller from that point where I gave him that, but the swelling went out of his legs and he started to get his appetite back. If the horse were laying down and hitting his legs or causing pressure sores in that manner that could be continuing to make it worse, then why when I wrap and bandage the whole leg is it not healing it as its keeping it from the pressure...for the last month, he *might* lay down and roll when I put new bedding in his stall every other day, but he rarely lays down even to sleep...so I dont understand why after a month they havent already healed at least a little bit. The back ones are on the very outside of his heels, and Im not sure how those are pressure related. I just want to get rid of them, and get him better, if I could remove a cause or source I would, but his stall is bedded with sawdust 6" deep, no mats, ground...as I thought he might have been catching them on the mats, Ive had all sorts of ailments and things go wrong with horses over the years, and usually treat or treat with a vets assistance and get through fine, but we mainly have quarter horses. Ive had several over the years, have quite a few now...so Im not just a one horse - owner, this just stumped me. And no matter what I do I cant get it to go away or even just get a little bit better. |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Sunday, Jul 31, 2011 - 8:56 pm: Scar tissue will only heal so much and will never be normal skin again. I do think scar remodels and comes stronger over time. To verify what this abnormal tissue really is discuss with your vet about doing a skin biopsy.DrO |
New Member: stefano |
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 2, 2011 - 3:14 pm: vet took a biopsy today of his areas, so should know something early next week. he is suspecting "ficomytosis" over summer sores, but will see! |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 2, 2011 - 7:38 pm: A biopsy is a good step but the dry scaly appearance above would not be consistent with either summer sores (habronemiasis) which has become very rare with the use of ivermectin and moxidectin or phycomycosis (fungal infections). You can read more about habronemiasis at HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Bumps / Nodules / Warts / Tumors » Overview of Bumps, Nodules, Warts & Tumors and HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Swellings / Localized Infection / Abscesses » Pythiosis in Horses.DrO |
Member: vickiann |
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 2, 2011 - 9:29 pm: In spite of the use of Ivermectin, summer sores are not too rare in climates such as Florida.When summer sores are severe there, horse owners must worm with Ivermectin every 30 days while caring for the lesions topically. |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2011 - 7:47 am: Thanks for the update Vicki, around here in Piedmont NC I have not seen a summer sore for 20 years.Note to everyone who read my post above, I mis-wrote "inconsistent" when I meant "consistent" and have corrected the text. To reiterate the images above are not consistent with fungal sores or summer sores. DrO |
Member: vickiann |
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2011 - 8:06 am: Glad to hear they are not common in some other areas as I would not wish them on anyone.One other thing that I have noticed about these sores is that particular horses seem more prone than others to getting them. My old paint horse can have one of those larva exit and leave a relatively clean hole while my Arab will have a big reaction and a tendency for the sore to get re-infested. A friend of mine has an Arabian stallion who has battled the darn things horribly (lesions were biopsied) while other horses on her property did not get them at all. She uses Ivermectin on him every 30 days during the summer months to prevent the problem. |