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Discussion on Tumor samples - Thoughts
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 2, 2011 - 2:43 pm:
I'm going to post some pictures of tumors/bumps from my 3 horses. One is a chestnut Arab 24 years old. Her mother was gray and had melanomas. Another is from my Friesian that is around 15 years old. The last is from my 6 year old Friesian.
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 2, 2011 - 3:29 pm:
This is my 24 year old Arab. At first I thought her glands were swollen, but it is right in the throatlatch area and appears to be growing. Flat walnut to a flat egg. It is soft and moves around. I can't tell if it is attached to anything. Doesn't feel like it is in the skin. 
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 2, 2011 - 3:29 pm:
Another shot of the Arab's tumor (Katie)
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 2, 2011 - 3:31 pm:
Katie (Arab) also has a small one on her back along the spine which doesn't seem to have grown. This feels like it moves over the spine and back. 
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 2, 2011 - 3:32 pm:
This is a tumor on the thigh of our 15 year old Friesian. It is pretty hard to the touch but seems to move with the skin. 
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 2, 2011 - 3:34 pm:
Another shot of Nikki's tumor. She also has a tumor on her back in the same spot as the Arab, but you can only feel it. Not large enough to take a picture. All of the images I have posted so far have hair and are under the skin, not on top of it. 
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 2, 2011 - 3:35 pm:
Now this is our 6 year old Friesian, Myntje. I don't believe this is a tumor but more of a hard nodule from an insect bite. It is missing hair and it is in the crease between her inner thigh and her teats. 
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 2, 2011 - 3:59 pm:
So, what, if anything, should I be doing about these. The 24 year old Arab is retired, but still active.
The other two are our riding horses.
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 4, 2011 - 1:35 pm:
Anyone there?
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Member:
lrhughes
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 5, 2011 - 3:09 am:
If they are tumors, then have them biopsied to see if they are malignant or benign. Then decide what to do.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 5, 2011 - 3:52 pm:
Hello Laurie,
Sorry for the delay I have been gone for the past few days. LRH is right, we cannot tell from the pictures alone what the diagnosis of each of these dermal and subq tumors might be. We try to characterize the more important ones in the article but if these tumors worry you, an exam and biopsy / removal is the best course.
Concerning the image of the 24 year old's head. I am uncertain if you are talking about the throat or the lower parotid region. Both appear to be slightly swollen. There are some well characterized swellings of both these areas which we illustrate and describe at HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Swellings / Localized Infection / Abscesses » Diagnosing and Assessing Swellings in Horses. Check out the swellings around the head diagram.
DrO
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Member:
smokeysc
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 5, 2011 - 5:10 pm:
Several years ago my filly developed sarcoid's. At the time my Vet was affiliated with "Colorado State University" and their research facility. My filly was injected with "TB" in a live Injection directly into the tumor. She recovered to lived a long life as "TB Positive". The cancer did not come back until her last years of life when she was in her mid 20's. I know Dr. O will know If this is still an effective way to treat the type of tumor/cancer you are facing with your horse. Just wanted to pass along what had helped my little quarter mare. All the Best, Stephanie
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 6, 2011 - 11:26 am:
Thank you. For the older Arab, the top bulge appears to be a gland as my other horses have the same thing. Now her gland may be swollen, but I think that is her and not a tumor. It's the bottom at the bottom of the throat that I'm looking at.
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 6, 2011 - 11:30 am:
OK I have looked at the bumps on the head diagram. The one at the bottom of the throat isn't in the area between the cheek bones. The other thing is that it is not bilateral. It is just one larger object which moves around.
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 6, 2011 - 11:34 am:
I guess the question is "if they bother you". I had a gray mare that had melanoma tumors all over her that I ignored and she died in her 20s of something else.
On the 24 year old, I have a horse that is retired and living out her old age. So I don't know if there are treatments that would be non-invasive or would be effective or warranted given her age?
For the Friesian, who is only 14 and who I need to be a riding horse for some time, I would be more concerned if this is something that is going to spread and take her life.
So let's say I biopsy both of them and they are cancerous. What then? What is the treatment?
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Member:
smokeysc
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 6, 2011 - 12:12 pm:
In my opinion I would not try to remove the tumors on the retired horses. Tumors grow in the fatty tissue and can become quite large. If they are not interfering with the horses movement they are more of an eye sore then a threat to the animals health. I am not a vet, but I have retired over twenty horses who all had their health concerns. The animals who have not undergone "Invasive" methods of treatment have lived as long as those which I have tried everything traditional and some non-traditional. It is always a tough decision. We don't want our animals to suffer. Go with your heart. How much is too much when their quality of life is disrupted by the tests, surgeries and medications? The fact that you have "Retired" your animals speaks volumes to the person you are and your concern for the horses well being. Bless you.
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 6, 2011 - 5:39 pm:
Well, retired in that we don't ride her any more. She still goes camping with us, and does get tired dragging us around via reverse-ponying.  
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Friday, Oct 7, 2011 - 12:15 pm:
So let's say I biopsy both of them and they are cancerous. What then? What is the treatment?
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 8, 2011 - 12:40 am:
Anybody there?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 8, 2011 - 11:58 am:
Hello Laurie,
Though it will depend somewhat on the type cancer they are you remove them, most often by surgery. If the cost of removal is similar to the cost of the biopsy you might just have them removed and then have the veterinarian assess if histopath worthwhile by the general characteristics of the cancer.
Stephanie, it is not true that all tumors are in the fatty tissues and not all become quite large. Tumors can be in any tissue and caused by many different things. Many tumors are not cancer. There behavior will depend on the cause.
DrO
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 8, 2011 - 2:29 pm:
I have read or heard that if you cut them that they may spread. Is this a valid concern?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 9, 2011 - 7:07 pm:
No, there are some tumors that have a high recurrence rate following surgery but treating them with surgical removal will not cause them to spread, see the article on Sarcoids for instance. You also must consider that without removal metastasis may occur.
If highly malignant you may consider further diagnostic work to see if there are metastasis and other treatment. If a non-malignant tumor with high recurrence rate is found you watch carefully and if it recurrs you choose alternative treatments.
DrO
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 20, 2012 - 8:21 pm:
I'm back. I still have the three tumors above. The now 25+ Arab still has something going on that the vet thinks is probably a thyroid tumor, but we aren't doing anything with it. She also has a few others that have popped up that are small here and there. With her advanced age, we are leaving them alone.
The tiny one next to the teats in the younger Friesian is the same. Leaving it alone.
However, the 1/2 walnut nodule above the hock on the now 16 year old Friesian is getting some attention. It is now twice the size from the pictures above, and closer to 1/2 of a large egg. It is in the skin and the vet did NOT biopsy it. She believes it to be a sarcoid. She recommended freezing it to get rid of it, and she doesn't do this.
I'm looking at your chart, and it says N/A next to nodular sarcoid tumors relative to Cryosurgery.
While larger, the tumor looks as it does in the pictures above. The hair covers it, and it is just a round, hard egg in the skin. It does not appear to be attached to any other structure and is moveable.
How do I best get rid of it?
Thank you,
Laurie
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Dec 24, 2012 - 5:04 pm:
Hello Laurie,
The problem with trying to freeze a nodule of any size is that you cannot get all the cancerous tissue frozen. However if it is a very small nodule freezing might be applicable. I would choose one of the other methods listed that has a good success rate.
DrO
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Friday, Dec 28, 2012 - 1:15 am:
Well, I called UC Davis. They said that they would first look at it, and most likely take a biopsy of it. However, with a biopsy you would have to be committed to surgery to follow, because the biopsy will potentially cause the cancer to spread.
So I have to make the decision to do something about it or leave it alone. She did say that if it was growing, that it would not stop growing.
I had a grey mare that had melanoma, and her tumors never got that big. So I'm conflicted.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2012 - 6:39 pm:
If it is getting larger you should have the problem addressed Laurie.
DrO
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 6, 2014 - 4:38 pm:
So Nikki's tumor got bigger, and I finally had to do something about it. UC Davis surgically removed it, but unfortunately, it appears that they did not cut wide enough. However, I'm o.k. with that because I think that they were trying not to hit nerves that would have left her dragging her back hoof.
I thought I would go ahead an post an update for people who are researching tumors and deciding what to do.
Relative to the other horses:
The 24 year old Arab is now 26, and her tumors are either the same or slow growing. The tumor in the throatlatch area is most likely a thyroid tumor, but is still growing slowly, and with her advanced age, we are not going to be doing anything. She also has several other small tumors, around the size of grapes that we are also ignoring.
Myntje's bump which is like a large BB under the skin, hasn't changed at all, and I have found two similar bumps on Nikki that we are watching.
Nikki's tumor to follow this post.
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 6, 2014 - 6:07 pm:
Nikki - Before Surgery:
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 6, 2014 - 6:32 pm:
The Biopsy came back as a benign tumor that could potentially grow aggressively, though. So the surgery was to take a wide berth to try to get all of it.
However, the really scary part was the nerves that it had to avoid. 
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 6, 2014 - 6:40 pm:
Post surgery:
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 6, 2014 - 7:12 pm:
Cool bandage methodology. Extra stitches on the outside to hold a soft bandage on:
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 6, 2014 - 7:14 pm:
The Histology report of the excised tumor: HISTOPATHOLOGICAL SUMMARY:
(T1), (T2), and (T4) to (T7): Examined is a cross section of haired skin including deep dermis in which the dermis is expanded by
a sparsely cellular, pseudoencapsulated, well-demarcated mass of spindle cells and abundant myxoid matrix. The cells are arranged
into wide, haphazardly oriented fasicles that frequently emanate from the perivascular space. Cells have well-demarcated margins
and scant, dull, coarse, amphophilic cytoplasm and produce large amounts of a lacy, basophilic matrix (mucin). Nuclei are oval,
central, with finely dispersed chromatin and a rare, single, inconspicuous nucleolus. No mitoses are counted in ten, 400x fields.
Anisocytosis and anisokaryosis are minimal. There are small fascicles of pale and atrophic, to normal collagen bundles interwoven
with the neoplastic population. Adjacent to the mass there is a dense proliferation of prominent, small to large caliber vessels with
prominent mural and endothelial cells (vascular plexus). The perivascular space of all vessels adjacent and superficial to the mass expanded with abundant mucinous material; vessels more remote to the mass are minimally affected. One invasive fascicle of the
mass extends through the pseudocapsule to the deep surgical margin. The mass is 0.4cm from the orange inked margin, 0.1cm
from the green inked margin, and a minimum of 1.0cm from the blue inked margin.
(T3): Examined is a cross section of pigmented haired skin with superficial to mid dermis in which the lateral surgical margins are
inked yellow and green. There is no evidence of neoplasia. The section is 3.3cm in length.
COMMENT:
This is an unusual tumor whose rarity makes prognosis difficult. The collagenous material within the mass is likely pre-existing
dermal collagen bundles. However, it is possible they are a product of neoplastic cells. The biological significance of the myxoid
material accumulating around vessels adjacent to the mass is unknown. In humans, there is an entity called low grade fibromyxoid
sarcoma that has both collagenous and myxoid neoplastic components. In dogs, synovial myxomas, despite the benign
nomenclature, are known for invasive and metastatic behavior. This myxoma was incompletely excised along the deep margin.
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 6, 2014 - 7:19 pm:
Any opinion Dr. O?
Also, the reason that I'm posting these, is that I'm used to being pretty passive with tumors if they don't appear to be growing and are not interfering with movement. I had an Arab with several tumors that I didn't touch, and she died from something else.
I think I misjudged this tumor on the leg, though. Given the amount of tissue that would have to be removed and the close proximity to nerves in the leg, I think maybe removing it when it was smaller would have been better.
So just some information for others who are watching a bump grow......
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 6, 2014 - 7:21 pm:
And one other comment. Posting these pictures to the Horseadvice.com really helped. I was able to pinpoint exactly what this tumor looked like in 2011.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 8, 2014 - 9:36 am:
Hello Laurie,
I haven't thought of us as a "cloud" to the horse world but there it is.
Hmmm, boy the pronouncement of the tumor extending beyond the deep margin of the incised tissue is worrysome and should be discussed with your surgeon and possibly an oncologist as to the indication for further treatment: surgery, radiation, other?
DrO
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 12, 2014 - 8:41 pm:
The surgeon did discuss this with the oncologist, and he has told me to watch it, and if it does appear that it is going to try to re-grow, then they will probably react to it then. I think the problem is the close proximity to the nerves, and I have no idea what further surgery or even radiation has on the nerves close by?
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Member:
judyhens
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 13, 2014 - 6:07 pm:
Haha! iCloud it is. I have looked at previous info on some of our horses and it is nice to be able to get information reflecting reality at the time vs. relying on memory.
Laurie, how did the soft bandage work for you? How is Nikki doing?
Thoughts and prayers for a full recovery.
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 5, 2014 - 12:09 am:
Hi Judy. Sorry, I haven't been on in a while. Nikki is doing great! You can't even tell where the incision was. And the best part, so far no signs that the tumor is coming back!
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