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  Discussion on Chshings and Laminitis in Welsh pony
Author Message
New Member:
dlonsdal

Posted on Sunday, Dec 18, 2011 - 8:30 am:

Hi Group!

I am a new member and this is my very first post. It is in regard to my 14 year old Welsh pony, Caramel. I reviewed the topical discussions and did not see one exactly with my exact issue, but if I missed it please let me know. My pony has had a 6 year run with recurring founder, laminitis and had been diagnosed with Cushings. He gets pergolide every day and has for probably 4 years. But, he is constantly on and off with sore feet (not always hot and or with elevated pulses}) and stiff stance. He is on a low carb diet and our vet thinks his weight is fine. He gets limited turn out in a dry paddock and very clean stall etc. We are doing all the traditional care practices.

I have two questions:
1. Is there another treatment (i.e. traditional or holistic) that can be added to the pergolide treatments or any other meds to get better control over the cushings? Forgot to mention that the pony is incredibly shaggy with fat deposits on eye sockets, etc. So, he almost looks untreated.

2. Should I be analysing his condition in more detail? This segment of article indicates that the orginal diagnosis of Cushings may be analysed further to identify the component parts?

Another cause of insulin resistance is high levels of glucocorticoids like cortisol which is the hormone released into the blood by the adrenal glands. High levels of blood glucocorticoids can cause a constellation of signs referred to as Cushing's Disease. These high levels of glucocorticoids can be either due to treatment with steroids or naturally occurring in some disease processes.

Thanks and I appreciate any advice. This is my girls Christmas pony and their very first show pony. I will do anything to help him. Thanks.}
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Dec 18, 2011 - 11:51 am:

Diane,

Some people who I know have their Cushings horses on Thyro L with good results.

Some seem to find that Pergolide doesn't work well on their horses and that they continue to have lameness problems on it while others do really great.

One of mine seems to be doing better thanks to Thyro L right now and we will consider whether he needs to also (or instead) be on Pergolide within a few months.

He is shedding out a lot of his long, curly hair and the size of the fat pad above his tail has gotten smaller since he has been on it.

His feet are doing much better too but in part that is because I have gotten the thrush out of his feet.

It seems that when cushingnoid or metabolically challenged the immune system against a variety of assaults is weaker.
Member:
pattyb

Posted on Sunday, Dec 18, 2011 - 8:19 pm:

Two questions come to mind right off the bat having been there with a Cushing's horse for the last 6 years of her 33 year life span....and currently have a metabolically challenged Arab/Paint to keep me on my toes:

1. What is the dose of Pergolide? If I remember correctly, it's dispensed in 3 different dosages....

2. Do you soak your hay or have it analyzed? What type of hay do you feed?

Oops...question 3. How bad was the founder or laminitis?

Oh, and welcome aboard!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Dec 18, 2011 - 10:22 pm:

Welcome DianeL,
Let me redirect you to a more appropriate section on Horses with Cushings disease which may be more helpful that this article, HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Endocrine System » Pituitary Pars Intermedia Dysfunction (PPID): Equine Cushing's. The article discusses further evaluation and other treatments.

I would like to note that the 6 year history of founder in a 14 year old pony does make the diagnosis of Equine Cushings suspect and this article on Equine Metabolic Disease may be more pertinent to your case. As to the recommendation of thyroid hormone replacement, I don't think it helps with the founder but may help in cases where weight control in as problem. You will find more information on this at HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Endocrine System » Hypothyroidism in Adult Equines.
DrO
New Member:
dlonsdal

Posted on Monday, Dec 19, 2011 - 10:44 pm:

Thanks all. So I read the article and I am doing the horse mgmt practices recommended concerning teeth, feet, parasite control, food etc. The pony's dose of pergolide in 1 mg/day and he weighs about 600 lbs. Should I consider Trilostane? Where do I get it? Also, I tried the chastetree berry supplement in liquid form known by the brand name Evitex, and it seemed to help a little. But I wasn't sure......should I restart it again? Or do I need my vet to run some of these tests referenced in the article? Thanks. Diane L
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 21, 2011 - 4:15 pm:

Hmmm, Welsh Ponies are supposed to be shaggy in the winter, does he have problems shedding out. How about the ponies condition 600 lbs would be heavy for a average Welsh Pony. Lastly when were the feet last radiographed and what was found. What is the general condition and conformation of the feet?
DrO
New Member:
dlonsdal

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 21, 2011 - 11:12 pm:

First I want to thank all of you for the good comments. As for Caramel, he is nearly 13 h and I might be a little off on his weight, I will check again. He has been radiographed many times. The most recent was last March. We found slight rotation in both front feet with high heels and good sole thickness. Our farrier is working to realigh the feet, bring toes back and heels down. He definitely shed out slow June...sometimes I clip him. And he has the fat pads in his eye sockets.

Is it possible that a pony has both Cushings and EMS or does one generally lead to the other. Anyway, any thoughts about the chastetree berry supplement? Thanks a bunch.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 28, 2011 - 7:06 am:

Hello DianeL,
For my thoughts on Chastetree Berry supplement see the article on Cushings I reference above. Yes I would say having both Cushings (endocrine secreting tumors of the pars media) and EMS (a primary tissue insulin resistance) is possible. Some might argue that most Welsh Ponies are genetically EMS, after all, it is a main component of being an easy keeper. See the article on EMS for more on this.

If the feet are in good condition, you are keeping the ponies condition on the thin side, and you are controlling rapidly metabolized carbohydrates, and you are on Pergolide yet still having problems you are missing something somewhere but I cannot see what it is staring into my computer screen. Carefully review the articles on these two conditions see if you are complying with all the recommendations, correct any ongoing problem, and if you still are having problems I strongly recommend you get a second opinion from someone who specializes in equine lameness or equine metabolic diseases.
DrO
Member:
chrism

Posted on Thursday, Dec 29, 2011 - 9:45 pm:

Is there any chance your pergolide is having some stability problems? In the US, procuring pergolide was difficult for awhile, and required a compounding pharmacy to make it. Plus, it required very good care to maintain the stability and the shelf life was quite short.

There is a new product, just introduced that is more robust and has a longer shelf life. Perhaps that would help your pony? I believe the new drug is Prascend and it is in a pill format.
New Member:
dlonsdal

Posted on Friday, Dec 30, 2011 - 8:18 pm:

Hey thanks for the ideas.......to Chris, I have gotten my pergolide from 2 different compounding pharmacies and come to think of it, this time was a new one. Thanks so much, perhaps the "prascend" could be more effective.

Also, my pony has tested positive for lymes and we usually do a course of Doxycycline in the summer. Seems to help him tremendously. Does anyone think I should ask my vet for another prescription? He is quite uncomfortable for the last 2 weeks, since I started this post. Lying down a lot and I feel so bad for him. Anyone know anything other than bute to ease the pain? Thanks to all of you and it's great to have horse knowledgeable horse friends to connect with. Happy New Year.

Diane
Member:
chrism

Posted on Friday, Dec 30, 2011 - 11:52 pm:

I am dealing with laminitis for the first time in my 28 yo right now, likely due to PPID or EMS. We initially used bute for the acute phase, but were able to taper and switch to prevacox after several weeks. We only use bute for a few days around her shoeing.

She is wearing special shoes that provide sole support, have dubbed off/easy breakover characteristics and are raised to take some rotational pressure off the coffin bone. X-rays show only a small degree of separation/rotation.

She was taken off pasture, fed only grass hay free choice and beet pulp and some vitamin supplements. She is off of oral glucosamines. She is allowed some turn out now as our grass is pretty much done for the winter.

Prior to the theraputic shoeing, she was bedded very deeply.

Xrays show good sole and good new growth, but she can be a bit of a princess and still showing some ouchiness.

Her episode started the end of September. This is the first incidence and I've had her 24+ yrs. Initially she wore an external, raised boot that was taped on as she was too tender to shoe.

We now suspect PPID or EMS as her hair coat is increased (she does shed), she drinks and urinates more frequently, she seems to be in a constant heat cycle, she had fatty deposits above her eyes (they are now gone) and, of course, the laminitis. Blood work to be done shortly to determine PPID/EMS and degree.

Hope this helps or gives you some ideas.
Member:
pattyb

Posted on Saturday, Dec 31, 2011 - 2:10 am:

Chris....one thing came to mind as I read your post, albeit at 2:00 in the morning....

I live in Virginia and have found the suspicion about winter grass to still be a bit tricky to be true. Although it is not as threatening as spring/fall grass, even though the winter grass is pretty much dead, the sugars/carbohydrates are still there. I have an EMS Arabian/Paint and still have to be careful with his pasture time because of that. There is also research that shows the more mature grass to not be as high in the s/c content so, we left the snow/winter pasture to grow a bit taller hoping that it will be just right for when we have snow on the ground and use that particular field.

I lost a Cushing's horse 3 years ago at the age of 33, on Pergolide her last 6 years. She had one minor bout of laminitis a month or two after having half of her thyroid removed, at the age of 24, but once I monitored her grass time very closely, she rebounded quickly and was able to graze for X hours per day, depending on the condition and season of the grass growth.

Good luck and please update as you can......
New Member:
dlonsdal

Posted on Saturday, Dec 31, 2011 - 8:48 am:

Hi there. I do have prevacox and maybe I will try that on Caramel. Like you, Chris, we have only minimal rotation indicated by most recent radiographs...and good soles. I have tried various corrective shoeing measures, but like yours he is very sore about the nails, so we decided to let him go barefoot and be diligent about his trimming. Has anyone ever heard of or considered the Nolan device? www.nolanhoofhealth.com It is a shoeing/plate support system developed for horses. We were considering this with our vet and farrier in the spring, but then he became so sound and happy over the summer that we decided to leave him be. Also, I did have him on a chastetree berry supplement when all was good but discontinued and left him on pergolide alone. I think I will order some and put him back on to see if it has a positive effect. All feeding, grazing management is consistent with what you have all recommended. Thanks.
Member:
chrism

Posted on Saturday, Dec 31, 2011 - 11:06 am:

Hi all.

PattyB - you are up late! Yes we are very careful re turnout time, even though the grass is mostly eaten down and not growing. Farm owner has her own cushingoid horse, so has been a wealth of knowledge and experience.

One non-shoeing alternative that has caught my eye, but I haven't tried, DianeL are the "soft ride" boots. They have a specific laminitis insert - overall a bit pricey, but figure a 2-3 corrective shoeings pay for them.

So far, we have been lucky as my mare hasn't had any abscesses to complicate things further (knock on wood). Maybe we are skipping that problem.

Happy New Year, all. Be safe.
Member:
dlonsdal

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 11, 2012 - 10:09 pm:

Hi Horse Friends

Need your help. Caramel seems to be having an episode of acute laminitis. He is laying down a lot especially in the eve when we do stalls. When we get him up, he is stiff, in pain and insecure about where he puts his feet. But, the weird thing is when we examine his feet, there is very little heat (and I have felt them HOT) and no strong pulses. I have been giving him a gram of bute........he stays in mostly, low carb everything, weight is good. Once I get him moving around his stall on soft ground and ,interested in me or the dogs, he gets a little better. I am calling my farrier and vet tomorrow, but maybe you have some questions I should be asking? Is there anything besides bute for acute pain relief ( I did try prevacox, but didn't notice improvement). Should I ask her for banamine, or something else? What else has anyone used in a similar situation to make the little darling more comfortable? Thanks a million
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Jan 14, 2012 - 12:16 pm:

Hello DianeL,
What did your veterinarian find? Have you increased the dose of bute as 1 gram per 600 lbs daily is a bit of a low dose.
DrO
Member:
lsweeney

Posted on Saturday, Jan 14, 2012 - 4:47 pm:

My understanding with acute laminitis is that you want to reduce the inflammation with anti-inflammatories and keep them in VERY deep shavings. Exercise is probably not a good thing.
Member:
paul303

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 17, 2012 - 5:26 pm:

All I can add is to check the pergolide dosage. It took me 3 years to get my mare dosed correctly. She is 14hh and about 900lbs. Over the 3year period of starting her out on .5mg, we gradually increased the dose to 2mg. For me, the tip off to trouble, was depression, lying down, disinterest in life, increased water consumption and urination. When she was first diagnosed, we did the whole nine yards...Dex test. I must admit that, since then, when we've increased her dose, we've just checked the ACTH...but when she's exhibited the symptoms, the test has always been high. She'll be 32 in May, and the last 4 yrs of pergolide treatment have been stable with the 2mg dose...but the first 3 yrs. were a roller coaster ride.
Member:
dlonsdal

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 24, 2012 - 10:43 am:

Hi Friends, wanted to offer an update on Caramel. He has now been on a chaste tree berry supplement for 2 weeks which is the loading dose timeframe. He seems much improved in several ways: coat has become shiny/glossy instead of dull, coat is laying down nicely when brushed, eyes are much brighter, attitude is better, also less laying down, he walked in from his little lot quite sound yesterday. Over the last week, I've only seen him down about once a day, which could be normal for him. I still give him bute in the am. but may try to back this off also as I am concerned about stomach upset. All this when we have had snow, ice and now mud in Maryland. Thanks. Diane
Member:
lilo

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 24, 2012 - 4:20 pm:

Good news! Lilo
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