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  Discussion on Rescue mare with choke
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Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2012 - 1:12 pm:

Hi Dr.O. Our older rescue mare has had at least 5 episodes of choke this past year alone. Her teeth are checked and floated 2x/yr, so I doubt that is her problem. The first time she choked was the day I went to pick her up a couple of yrs ago. A caretaker had fed her dry alfalfa pellets, which caused her to choke. She did fine for several months, then choked again. We started to bring her in and feed her seperate from the others thinking she might be gobbling her food fearful of another horse getting it. She again was fine for several months. She evidently choked last night as she was still standing there coughing, working her mouth, and draining copious amount of green tinged fuid from her nose. She normally doesn't struggle or act colicky; just stand there looking sad.

She only had alfalfa hay, no grain. She does get Eq. Senior pellets in the a.m with vitamins in the a.m. but not at night.

I never see any signs she has trouble eating, but she is a very slow eater. I keep her shut up until she is through. She has clean water at all times, but drinks much less than the other horses. I will try feeding hay in a net to see if that helps. Are there any other things you would recommend? Would bute or banimine during or after an episode help? I suspect she might have esophagal damage after so many episodes, but there is no where within a three hour drive I could get her scoped. Would leaving her free to go in and out, moving around more while eating, and leaving the other horses shut up be helpful to her? Would she be better off with soaked beet pulp or pellets that are soaked? Or would that be apt to cause more problems? Thanks for the help. We suspect this mare is late teens, but have no info on her. She looks to be a Morgan or Arab cross, but again don't know. She's small with a very swayed back.
Member:
bluegate

Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2012 - 1:26 pm:

I think your horse should always have soaked feed. I have an older gelding who choked twice. He now gets soup - has for a couple of years -and I feed him separately.
I even keep the dry feed in my house to be sure nobody at the barn leaves the feed door unlocked.
I was amazed to see how much dry feed swells when wetted.
My old guy can't be tubed...The vet gave me some syringes with a medicine in then that relaxes the muscles in case we have another episode.
1/4 cup dry feed caused the 2nd choke.
I also feed very finely shredded beet pulp that is ready in a minutes - not hours like the big chunks.
Best of luck with your horse.
Cindy
Member:
babychop

Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2012 - 1:26 pm:

If this helps, I have a couple of these and it slows 'em down better than a standard hay net with not much loss https://www.horseloverz.com/Tough-1-Slow-Feed-Hay-Bag-pr-676450.html Pretty inexpensive as well.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2012 - 3:44 pm:

Sara, Bluegate and Andrea,

After not having a choke episode in 35 years of dealing with horses I had 3 in the same year. Since that time, I always wet my horses feed whether they need it or not.

My race mare choked very badly as a three year-old coming home from what was the highlight of her racing career. I always shipped her home with a haybag and unfortunately although we tried to cool her out for three hours before we put her on the trailer, she would not drink. So the combination of no water, hay and a 4 hour trip home(would not drink on the trailer) and we wound up with a choking horse and needing the vet at 3:30 am.

For several years, I would not ship her with a haybag and while she was ok shipping to where ever we had to race, she was a horror show on the way home. I did not put two and two together until one day, I told my husband to water down her small mesh haybag to see if she would ride home better. It was like I had a different horse, she was perfect. Now, she gets a watered down small mesh haybag both going to and coming from the races and she has been a perfect angel with no recurrent choke.

Also, the feed I am using is very light and almost melts in my horses' mouths, so the danger of choke is significantly less but I still wet down the feed.

Sara, my suggestion would be to use a dose syringe and squirt some water down her throat before she eats and make sure she swallows(on top of watering down her feed). It may just be that she has not had a drink and her throat is dry and that is leading to the more frequent episodes of choke.

Rachelle
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2012 - 4:06 pm:

I am going to try her on one of those small hole/slow feed hay bags. She has been getting some EQ Senior pellets in the a.m. which are mixed with corn oil. She has never had a problem with them. She did have a problem with alfalfa pellets she was fed by a caregiver on the day I went to pick her up. She's never had any since. In that case, she didn't have water given to her with the pellets, and they looked pretty hard and dry when I saw them.

I think I'll try and switch her to grass hay also. I put her on the alfalfa because she came to us in poor weight and seems to need the extra boost of the alfalfa. I guess I'll soak her hay; I've never felt that was necessary since the only time I've had a horse choke before Hope came, was when one wolfed down alfalfa cubes too quickly. Maybe I should give her loose salt also and see if I can't get her to drink more. She has access to a salt block, but that might not be enough. Imo, she should drink more.

Rachelle, if you'd evern tried to squirt anything into this horse's mouth, you'd rethink your suggestion re: using a dose syringe with water! LOL
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2012 - 4:34 pm:

Sara,

I have had a few of those!LOL. Most of them came to me afraid of anything coming near their mouths. I get them over this first by putting honey on the outside of a dose syringe( 60 cc syringe with the tip cut off), their curiousity gets the better of them and pretty soon they start looking for it. Then I put the honey in the dose syringe and squirt a little at a time.

I never try to do anything to them (worm, dose with medicine, etc.) Unless they've gotten their honey treatment first. And sometimes, I'll dose them afterwards with honey too, just so they don't have a bad experience. Doesn't take long for them to realize that the dose syringe isn't going to hurt them. I've had some pretty bad actors come around to my way of thinking within a relatively short time. My mare was like this, she wouldn't even take a treat or a carrot if your hand was near it and paste wormers well that was another story.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2012 - 10:31 pm:

Here is the link for the Busy Horse hay bags:

https://www.busyhorse.com/

I know of some horses who have gotten their teeth caught in the regular type of bags, which probably could not happen with these.

Love these bags, which save me a lot of money because there is no waste and you can get various sized openings. I've been using them for a couple of years and they have proven to be fool proof and impossible to destroy, which is saying a lot with me and my crew.

I would only recommend the bags with the largest capacity. Forget the "snacker" and go for the grande buffet.

It says these hold a couple of flakes, but you can pack them much fuller than is shown so that they hold a good third of a bale at least.
Member:
babychop

Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2012 - 12:00 am:

I have some of the NibbleNet bags that are similar to the Busyhorse bags - they can be a bit of a pain to fill depending on your hay, a couple of my more impatient horses have torn some of the straps away from the main netting so there are gaps (they get mad at having to work so hard to get to the hay so I would suggest at least 2" or larger holes if you go that route). I haven't had any problems with the small hole hay bags (not saying that getting teeth caught couldn't happen, I've just never had that issue) but you want to make sure they're clipped so that they don't hang too low so nobody gets a hoof or leg caught in them once they're empty - there is a big cost difference between the options if that's a concern (I like a double ended snap as opposed to just tying the bag up, securing the top and then snapping it to the bottom of the bag so it can't get flipped over the rail & out of the stall so she can't get to it).

Here is yet another option though even more pricey (unless you have a handy hubby or boyfriend): https://www.grazingbox.com/howitworks.htm

If you're considering pelleted food it sounds like you might want to soak whatever you're giving Hope just to be on the safe side, probably avoiding alfalfa all together - if you put her on a good yeast based hind gut supplement and get her hind gut in order she'll have better absorption of what she takes in (at least that's been my experience).

Just a few things to think about... Soaking everything you feed her sounds like a good idea though if you're worried about choke, it can't hurt, but I wouldn't soak it too far ahead.
Member:
theresab

Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2012 - 1:11 am:

My 17 yo mare had started choking on the Equine Senior pelllets as well. The first time I thought it was a fluke and she cleared it in about an hour. Second time she had to be tubed about 8 times, she was completely packed. Soaked her feed for about 3 weeks and then tried one more time with dry pellets. Gave her a smaller serving in a really big pan with rocks and she still managed to choke. My vet said she has to have her pellets soaked for the rest of her Evryone seems to enjoy thier hot mash in the winter. life. I can switch to a feed like an Omalene that doesn't absorb so much water, but he still recommends soaking it to save me the paranoia. He said no alfala cubes, or any other kind of cube that will swell with water. She gets a high quality grass hay twice a day that she has no problems with and she gets her hay before the grain. Vet said that will help prevent colic. I soak all three horses pellets that way I don't have to worry about them switching buckets. As for the scoping my vet said it really wouldn't be worth my money. If it's an obstructions like scar tissue they can't do surgery to correct it. It's really not that much more work soaking the pellets. I throw hay, come back inside and prep buckets then do the other chores and then go dump feed. With hot water it only takes about 10-15 minutes for them to break down. Also oil and corn syrup can easily be mixed in, I put it in before the pellets break down and it all gets soaked up.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2012 - 1:44 pm:

My horses have not managed to damage the Busy Horse bags in any way. I use double end snaps to hang them from a tie ring that is placed in each stall plus on some trees outdoors.
Member:
stek

Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2012 - 2:08 pm:

I also recommend soaking any hard feed, we have a mare that had 2 chokes in 2 years and that was enough for me. Choke can leave scar tissue in the esophagus that will make future episodes of choke more common.

Also recommend some type of slow feeder for hay, preferably something that allows her to eat at a natural angle, especially if she's a slow eater and not the best chewer. I saw a study recently that showed when a horse eats with their head down their teeth and jaw actually line up a little differently than if they have their heads up. I will have to see if I can find it...
Member:
babychop

Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2012 - 2:32 pm:

You can put some of those nibble nets on the ground (they actually suggest it on the site) and those boxes can be built fairly inexpensively if you have the wood (scrounge some palates & a metal yard should have the grid). The eating off the ground argument is one I've heard often. Keep in mind that if you've got sandy soils you'll want to periodically run psyllium through her to avoid sand colic. I feed over mats to help avoid it but horses will be horses so psyllium is a regular rotation.
Member:
paul303

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2012 - 1:11 am:

I, too, am a huge nibble net fan. My horses seem to enjoy the bags and are totally content fiddling around with them and taking their time with their hay. No one tries to inhale their hay anymore and there is no panic that someone else will get it. What used to take them 1/2 hour, now takes 2 1/2 to 3 hours - at times, they even leave their hay and take a break and then go back to it. I was so fearful of the horses destroying them that I ordered another set...after 2 1/2 years, that second set is still wrapped and stored.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2012 - 11:40 am:

Hope is doing much better. She is now eating beet pulp and alfalfa pellets not only soaked, but served in a pan with about an inch of water coverning the feed so she has to stick her nose in the water to eat. She is also getting Eq. Senior fed the same way, and a little very soft, wet grass hay.

I have started putting salt in her feed hoping it will get her to drink more. This girl drinks very little water. I've kept her in so I can monitor what she drinks. She has a large, clean bucket of water, one of those big heated ones (12 gal?) and the water is only down about 4" from when it was filled yesterday afternoon. I a pretty sure she needs electrolytes, but am afraid to give her any since she isn't drinking; it could make her even more off balance imo. She is perker, nickers to me and is alert - putting her ears back when other horses come too near her door instead of ignoring them. She has a vet appointment for blood work and physical the day after I get home from Scottsdale. We leave tomorrow a.m. I think she'll be o.k. until then.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2012 - 6:58 pm:

Hello Sara,
If there is no esophageal damage then the mare is likely to be swallowing without chewing well, odd for a slow eater. Anything you can do to slow down ingestion and increase the moisture of the ingested foodstuff is likely to decrease the incidence of choke from lack of chewing. NSAIDs may help any swelling from damage by the choke but not likely to prevent the episodes.
DrO
Member:
mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2012 - 8:45 pm:

Thanks Dr.O. Do you think the soft grass hay soaked is o.k. for her, or should I stick to soaked pelleted feed and soaked beet pulp?

I am suspecting she has damage from episodes before I got her. I would suspect this probably happened to her before we knew her judging by how badly she choked the day I was to pick her up.
She is scheduled for exam and scope next week.

Hope is eating better, but I don't know how to get her to drink more water. I am soaking everything and serving it really soupy. I'm adding salt now to her feed. I would think not drinking enough would hinder swollowing? Any other ideas on how to get a horse to drink more anyone?
Member:
bluegate

Posted on Thursday, Feb 16, 2012 - 3:49 am:

For drinking more water, that added water to feed will help. I use electrolytes and that Himalayan salt on a rope that the horses really seem to like. Best of luck!
Cindy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Feb 19, 2012 - 9:47 pm:

Sara I have two horses choke on fresh mown grass so I have no bets on the soaked hay either way. Does she swallow too large a mouth full or without chewing well or is there some problem in her esophagus? These are things that determine whether she will choke.
DrO
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, Feb 19, 2012 - 10:59 pm:

Hi Dr.O. As far as I can tell, she is a dainty, slow eater, takes small bites and seems to chew good. I am at a show, get home on Tues. evening, and she has an appointment on Wed. at the vet's. He says he can do an esophageal scope, so we will see. If there is damage, what if anything can be done?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 22, 2012 - 3:54 pm:

It depends on location and size of defect Sara. With the esophagus surgery ranges from impossible to at best difficult. Unless money is no object the best you are probably going to get might be a explanation.
DrO
Member:
mrose

Posted on Friday, Feb 24, 2012 - 12:04 am:

Hope had a scope done today along with blood work. The vet couldn't see anything that would cause recurrant choke. No obstruction, no polyps or tumors, no irritation. He checked her teeth and although she had a little hook on the far rear molar on one side, he said it was nothing that would prevent proper chewing/interfere with chewing. He could find no reason for her choke.

Her blood work was all within normal range except for calcium, which was very high. BUN was normal; all other values were in normal range.

The very high calcium along with her physical condition make the vet think she has parahyperthiroid. The other possibility is renal failure, but he said with that BUN and other values would also be abnormal.

He told me to just keep feeding her like I am. She is drinking if I put a few alfalfa pellets in water to make "tea." She drank almost three large buckets of "tea" within 24 hrs. She does't touch clean water. She is getting soft grass in a slow feed net, always hanging available, and gets soaked L/S pellets mixed with soaked alfalfa pellets 2x/day. These are consistancy of runny oatmeal. She also has one of those "natural" salt blocks in her feed tub ( that look like Hemalayan salt.) She is brighter and more active; was very upset at being at the vet's all alone while waiting for the blood work. She has lost weight and is very sunken in the flank area, but a little better than right after the choke.

I understand that Parahyperthyroidism is caused by a tumor and there isn't anything that you can do?

Any suggestions/comments on her feed, or what I can do to improve her situation?

Thanks.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Friday, Feb 24, 2012 - 11:12 am:

Sara - interesting that she will drink the "tea", but not clear water. Good luck with her, Lilo.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Feb 25, 2012 - 6:46 pm:

Sara, would you post the lab values along with your labs normals?
DrO
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, Feb 26, 2012 - 7:58 pm:

Hi Dr.O, I will call the vet's office tomorrow and see if they'll make me a copy. I have a huge file there, and they just added to my file; I didn't think to ask for a copy.
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