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Discussion on Bloodwork shows slightly anemic after fighting Pigeon Fever
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 26, 2012 - 6:42 pm:
So I started looking around for a supplement to help her build her blood back up. I'm finding really interesting stuff on the internet. I looked at the Red Cell supplement at the feed store, and noticed it had selenium in it. I'm also feeding LMF Super Supplement that has a selenium warning on it. I didn't want to overload on selenium so I decided to hold off on the purchase and get some better information. Interestingly enough when I started researching Iron supplementation, I found an article on the Venezuelan Polo horses that died from selenium poisoning.
I found this article:
Anemia in horses is commonly misdiagnosed. Horses have a spleen, which stores about 1/3 of the body’s red blood cells (RBC). In any time of excitement, e.g. exercise or a sudden spook, the spleen will contract, releasing RBC. To accurately diagnose anemia, it is important to take a blood sample when the horse is at rest. Stall rest will give a lower reading than pasture rest because the horse will not be walking around grazing. You can also take several samples over the course of a few days and average the results. The blood will be analyzed for the packed cell volume (PCV), which should range around 40 %. The horse is considered anemic when the PCV DrOps below 30 %.
Anemia does not result directly from an iron deficiency. Causes of anemia can include blood loss, parasite infection, and RBC degradation or lack of production. The most difficult obstacle in curing anemia is finding the root of the problem first. Once that is eliminated, the anemia will usually correct itself. Iron supplementation will not help unless you correct the underlying problem of the anemia first. Iron injections are commonly used, but should be given with caution! Iron can be toxic and possibly fatal; anaphylactic shock due to the injection is also possible.
With exercise training and conditioning there will be a natural increase in RBC, so unfit horses may have a lower PCV than fit horses. Conditioning may be a good way to help increase RBC in the borderline anemic horse.
Answer provided by Carey Williams, Ph.D., Rutgers Cooperative Extension.
And this one:
Here’s how the typical scenario goes. You’re worried that your horse is lacking in energy, spunk, spark, etc. You think that this could be because something is wrong with him – maybe he’s anemic (medical term) in addition to feeling anemic (adjective). So, you have blood drawn.
The blood is run by the lab, who has a normal range (See Fact Two, above). Your horse’s blood falls below the normal range, by a percent or two or three. Instead of a PCV of 32, his is 30 (See Fact Three, above). BINGO – he’s anemic (the medical term), which explains perfectly why he took down a rail, or ran 0.1 second slower around the barrels than you had expected!
What do you do? Why, give him blood builders, or course! B-vitamins and iron (See Fact One, above)! See how easy it is (See Facts Four and Five, above)?
Oh, and it’s also that same rationale that indirectly led to the death of 21 polo horses in Florida, in 2009. CLICK HERE to read about the polo horses.
AND NOW, A LIST OF INCONVENIENT OTHER FACTS
1. It is impossible to make a horse deficient in B-vitamins. The micro-organisms that live in the horse’s intestines make all that the horse needs, and then some.
2. Iron deficiency is essentially unknown in the horse.
3. The horse has a huge storehouse of blood cells in his spleen. He can double his PCV in moments, if need be. A laboratory PCV doesn’t measure this.
FINAL QUESTION – What are you trying to say, Dr. Ramey?
OK, I’ll cut to the chase. This all adds up to the fact that almost all of the time, if you’re worried about, or if you’ve been told that, your horse is anemic (the medical term), you’ve been misinformed. And, as a result, if you’re running out to spend money on vitamin B- and iron-containing “blood builders,” because your horse doesn’t feel like you think he should, you’re mostly wasting your money.
Honestly, in this economy, you’ve got a lot better things to spend your money on than iron supplements and B-vitamins. While it may make you feel better, you’re not really doing anything for your horse if you’re spending money on supplements to help with his “anemia.” Besides – its a horse – you can find lots of other stuff to waste your money on!
So do I do nothing, and let her build herself back up?
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Monday, Feb 27, 2012 - 7:23 am:
Hi Laurie,
I read your above post with interest because I just had this same conversation with one of the vets that come through the barn each day. I am currently working for one of the top Standardbred trainers and we have 178 horses.
These horses get every supplement, bloodshot, jugs, drenched etc and yet they are dehydrated, anemic etc.
My question to the vet was why was this happening. He told me(and I already suspected this)was that the blood sample was taken too soon. In most cases the samples are taken the day after a horse races before they get turned out( less than 10 hours after the race). His take was the horses have not had a chance to recover on their own and that the tests were not a true reading of the horses actual health and treatments given too soon are actually contributing to the problem because they are not truly needed in the first place and if it is not used it is excreted. This sentiment seems to agree with the two comments in your own post.
My own race mare, does not get anything extra, no blood shots, jugs, drenches. She is not dehydrated, nor anemic even though she races and trains on Lasix. Her blood work, when it does occasionally get done(as a base set of values) has always come back excellent even when on garlic(another topic).
So, my take is that healthy horses do not need the amount of supplementation that most horse owners give their horses( resulting in extra costs), as their horses are perfectly able to take care of themselves, even under the stresses of racing( or showing or any other type of work). when fed a balanced diet.
Now here's the rub, your horse has not been healthy, but if she is getting better, I would take blood work at different intervals going forward and see whether your numbers improve, if they do then supplementation is not needed(IMO). Plus I am not sure if oral supplementation would work if there was a really serious problem.
I know we all want what's best for our animals but we also tend to forget their physiology and that they have wonderful recuperative powers when left alone.
I'd take a wait and see attitude, but keep your vet in the loop.
Just my thoughts
Rachelle
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Feb 27, 2012 - 11:07 am:
Have you read Dr. O's articles here about anemia?
If I recall correctly he says that blood tests for anemia can be wrong too.
I thought that I read somewhere that one ought to actually exercise the horse a certain amount of time prior to a test -- not necessarily until just the moment before the blood is drawn, but activity levels cause variations.
Veterinarians here in Florida have prescribed a jug of Red Cell twice for one of my horses.
The second time we believe that his horribly low blood was due to ehrlichosis from a tick bite. The blood was so thin that my Vet shook his head when he looked at it and somewhat feared that he may have EIA.
My horse was very sick and according to instruction I gave Red Cell daily until the one container was used up.
My horse's blood level bounced right back up from dangerously low very quickly, but of course we addressed the underlying problem with Doxycycline.
My farms are in selenium deficient areas so I was not worried about the amount of selenium in the Red Cell.
With the polo horses, the pharmacy in Ocala who was doing the compounding of the supplement got their decimal points mixed up, using 100 times the selenium that was appropriate, if I recall correctly -- human error.
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 28, 2012 - 5:48 pm:
Yes, I have read the articles and I don't believe that there is anything in them that talks about supplementation to recover from anemia. Thus the post. The other point made in the first post is that a fit horse vs. a non-fit horse will have more red blood cells. My horse has been sitting in a pasture for some time.
I'm less interested in her test results since she has been fighting an illness long-term and it is most likely the reason for the anemia assuming that the test results are accurate. Additionally, the vet said that she was "slightly" anemic. I'm more intrigued by the statements above indicating that supplementation may not be worthwhile given that horses are rarely iron deficient and that the micro-organisms in their intestines make all the vitamin B they need.
I am especially interested because I had a filly about 30 years ago who was severely anemic after a cold and they had me giving her Vitamin B shots for some time, daily.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 28, 2012 - 7:27 pm:
Good luck with her.
If I were in your position I guess that I would look to the behavior and how you feel that she is feeling and progressing.
Most likely supplementation is not usually necessary, nor probably even advisable but there are probably cases where it is helpful.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 29, 2012 - 6:13 am:
Laurie,
Your filly from 30 years ago, did she get better because of the B-1 shots or did she get better on her own? Hard question because she was being treated as she was getting better.
Also, sometimes (not that they should) but to keep their clients happy they prescribe things that they knowingly know won't help(but won't hurt either, hopefully).
An example of this is treating a horse with a cold with antibiotics, rather than letting them get over it(and build their own immunity) on their own.
Was your filly from 30 years ago treated with antibiotics for her cold, that in itself may have knocked her blood count off and been a contributing factor to the anemia exhibited.
Rachelle M
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 29, 2012 - 8:16 pm:
Laurie,
The article associated with this area addresses your question and the issues brought up by your references. Study it and if you still have questions let me know.
DrO
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2012 - 1:11 pm:
Rachelle - I suspect that the real problem was that my filly was treated with a long-acting penicillin shot for a cold. So was it a virus? Did the one shot create a resistance problem?
And then yes, would she have gotten better anyway?
I also had her on a lot of supplements (I was in high school), and the vet said that sometimes you can do too much for horses.
A second vet came along and said that she was "severely" anemic. I remember this vividly because she looked great, but you would turn her out for exercise, and she would just stand there, listlessly.
Since that time, all of my babies don't get babied. ;-)
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2012 - 2:07 pm:
Dr. O: From your article:
"While some of the causes of anemia are directly treatable, some are not so see the specific article on the disease. Links are provided in the list of causes above."
You site this as a cause of anemia:
"Anemia of chronic disease: chronic infection or inflammation, neoplasia, and endocrine disorders."
But I'm not seeing any link for treatment other than perhaps removing the cause of the chronic disease.
I can deduce that since I'm not seeing any recommendations for supplementation, that one should not supplement?
It is also interesting that the antibiotic that she has been put on can also cause anemia. This does have a link that talks about Folic Acid Supplementation:
"Folic Acid (B-9)
Folic acid is an important dietary precursor for the active form on the vitamin, folinic acid. Folic acid supplementation during T-S treatment results in a paradoxical decrease in serum folinic acid and can cause anemia and congenital defects during gestation. It is not clear that T-S treatment alone causes these problems during pregnancy but prolonged use should be approached cautiously. A good sources of foliinic acid, which can help during pregnancy and antibiotic administration, is fresh green grass. If this is not available consider IM injections of folinic acid.i"
Grass is probably one thing that I can easily locate and administer. 
I am feeding LMF Super Supplement that does include Folic Acid, which, if I'm reading this correctly, is working against me when combined with T-S treatment.
She has a trace mineral salt block that includes iron.
I'm kind of back to do nothing except let her out to forage on grass.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2012 - 7:09 pm:
No perhaps about it Laurie, the "cure" for anemia is to fix the disease process causing the anemia. Anemia in not a disease but the result of a disease process.
Folic (folinic) acid or iron or any other supplement you come up with will not cure the anemia unless these nutrients are deficient in your diet. Humans with anemia from chronic disease do have specific stimulants for trying to build back RBC mass using hormones like erythropoietin. These have even been used some in race horses but it is expensive and has had some serious health side effects. There are some companies that have tried to take advantage of the idea of a natural "EPO doping" but there is little evidence these are of much use.
To get back to your original post, Dr Ramey is trying to tell you that anemia is often misdiagnosed because the spleenic reserve has not been taken into account and that there are many products available OTC that are not likely to help if you do have an anemic horse. The article we have tells you how to get a real measure of the erythron. Has a test been run using those recommendations and if so what were the results including the lab normals?
DrO
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 3, 2012 - 12:55 am:
Thank you, Dr. O. You have answered my question. This horse is running around, bucking in the storm, biting my husband because she is done with the epsom salt soaks, and other than this "slightly" anemic test result, (which may be dubious given that we were not testing correctly for anemia), and this stubborn Pigeon Fever abscess, the horse looks like she feels great. So this posting was much more about my interest in the benefit of over-the-counter supplements to treat anemia.
Thank you!
Laurie
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 3, 2012 - 10:22 am:
Hi Laurie,
It seems we all learn our lessons with experience as I too learned the antibiotic lesson with one of my young horses with a cold.
I kept insisting the vet treat the horse, the horse would get better, only to relapse when her system was stressed when in training. I finally bit the bullet, did not treat her. Her temperature spiked, I did not give her bute/ banamine etc to take her fever down. I instead treated her for almost 24 hours straight of iced feet(in two manure tubs) and cold hosing, her temperature broke on its own and stayed down and she was able to resume training after a short period of time and did not get sick again. Prior to me doing this her temp was never below 100.5 degrees on a good day. After this it was a consistently below 100 degrees.
From that time on, unless the vet tells me otherwise, I let my babies fight the colds on their own. I also feed garlic as I find this helps any horses immune system, not only babies and I have not had a sick horse of any age (knock on wood) for many years. My horses are exposed to a lot of horses when they race, so the incidence of illness should be higher, but so far it has not been.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2012 - 5:38 pm:
I will just note that the garlic statement above has not been shown to be either true or not true. I haven't had a bout of respiratory illness in any of our horses (despite having young horses, frequent traveling, and horse shows) in over a decade but do not feed garlic.
DrO
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