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Discussion on Foal contracted tendons and umbilical stump questions
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New Member:
4jane
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 3:48 pm:
Foal with bucked knees and on toe. LF is most affected. While the foal is large we feel this was due to over nutrition and dam is on two flakes of orchard grass hay per day and I add a little hand full of oat alfalfa (very small amount). On day 4 the vet came out and gave a shot of what I believe is oxytetracycline called LA 200, vitamins ADE-E_Selenium, phosphan. Improvement seen and repeated again on day 5. For days 6 and 7 he gave me 17ml of LA 200 to give orally along with some phosphan. Due to his improvement I only gave the phosphan. He is in a 48ft by 60ft pen with harder ground and under shelter softer sand and straw vet seems to think this is fine. I think in the pics the improvement is noticeable, however I have some questions.
His LF is tighter than his right, does this correct in time or does he need another shot before the window of effectiveness closes?
When walking I think he might be a little lame is this normal as things stretch out? (This is my biggest worry)
Also pic from front vet says some rotational issues.
Vet says have a 4 week period for him to improve before trying splints...does this sound right?
Lastly, I have scoured the net about what a normal umbilical stump looks like. Is this a stump or hernia?
I have video of him walking if there is a way to upload.
Thank you    
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New Member:
4jane
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 5:15 pm:
Okay, I just made a youtube account so you can view the videos if you like. Frankly, I don't know if I am seeing things or if he is a little sore. This is all new to me. Thanks!
https://www.youtube.com/user/happytrailztoyou?feature=mhee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17XvzByjCoc&feature=plcp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7-BveS7e1s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbJ1nojk4u4&feature=channel&list=UL
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 7:15 pm:
what a beauty ....watched your video .. something is just not right in the giddy up of this colt .. i have had colts that were over the knees and some up right ... but the way of go was not like this at all .. I hope Dr. O or someone can shed some light on this .. and you get him going well ... he is a Q T ...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them spots..
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New Member:
4jane
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 12:31 am:
Thanks Ann! Well I just went out and did a couple more quick shots of the guy since you think his giddy up is off. I don't know about that or if he's just a little uncoordinated. Before the LA200 shots he literally looked like he was marching in the front so maybe he is a little delayed. But I think these evening videos show he is sore after his little romp and I am not sure how to proceed...more meds or splint. Thanks again for your input.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5-6OkGRGTc&feature=channel&list=UL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaYkDh__c4o
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 2:26 am:
He is just so darn cute.... he looks sore or stiff or uncoordinated .. or all the above .. do you have a vet clinic you can proceed with ?
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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New Member:
4jane
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 6:48 pm:
The vet is coming out in the morning. Will probably give him another shot of tetracycline, but I don't know that that will really help. The posts I have seen say the foals improve rapidly after the shot, no mention of limping. He did improve but now he looks like he is off. I am a little nervous if vet wants to bute him because with my luck he will have ulcers on top of it. Thanks
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 7:18 pm:
do u have a teaching clinic near by ... i would get a second opinion ... it can't hurt ... and yes your poor boy looks uncomfortable .. . .
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them spots...
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Member:
babychop
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 7:43 pm:
Oh man, I totally get your fears. When our babies finally arrive we want them to be perfect after all that waiting and it's so scary to have even the slightest deviation from the norm when it comes to legs! I've gone the route of tetracycline and wrapping before and it's turned out wonderfully but I have to admit I've never had this level of issue. Please let us know what your vet says, he's a gorgeous little fella. I think you're wise in trying to correct this as soon as possible. I agree with Anne, there's something just not right and he appears to be struggling. The body will compensate but that's not what you want here.
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Member:
babychop
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 7:45 pm:
Oh, and as for the umbilical stump - it appears to be just that. As he gets bigger you won't even notice it. Show it to your vet but it doesn't look like a hernia to me.
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New Member:
4jane
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 7:47 pm:
No, there are no clinics in the vicinity. Poor little guy!
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Member:
babychop
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 7:47 pm:
Watched the other videos of him walking before he starts to cavort... He's got quite a little hitch in his getalong... Crossing my piddies for you - please do let us know what happens.
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Member:
4jane
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 7:51 pm:
Thanks Andrea. Glad you don't think it's a hernia on top of everything else! Okay, what does the term quite a hitch mean? Is that like there is a lag in time before the next step?
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 8:06 pm:
4jane, Andrea and i are using slang to describe what we see in the movement of your colt .. so a hitch in his getalong , is just that, irregular movement ... sorry if we are confusing you ..
Please get a second opinion on your colt, if no clinic call another vet ..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them spots..
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Member:
babychop
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 8:13 pm:
Ah, sorry 4Jane. Ann is correct, it's just ol' cowboy slang I picked up at an old boarding stable and that's what it means, he's not moving right. There's something going on there that you'll need a professional opinion on but I do think it's imperative you get it checked out while you have a window to do something about it without getting into anything major.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 9:36 pm:
Welcome 4Jane,
Concerning the possibility of a hernia, this is a diagnosis made by palpation of the area and is nor possible just from visual cues. As to whether the flexural deformities will correct in time, most do but some don't. The article on Tendon Contracture explains the best treatments to treat the problems to maximize the outcome, including time frames for IV tetracycline use. Are there any specific questions about the recommendations that I can help you with?
DrO
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Member:
cindy333
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 9:55 pm:
What has the foal been eating, any product for foals with a balance of vitamins and minerals.
He looks in very good weight. We had a foal similar this year, we give him Buckeye Foal Aide, it does lots to help this condition, in fact we didn't do the oxytetracycline program, just gave him the Foal Aide every day, and still are, he has done much better with his bucked knees and as he was down on his pasterns behind he is up where he should be. Ours also was on his toes in front with the bucked knees, he looks very good today, he is only about 6 weeks old, was amazed how much better he is.
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Member:
4jane
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 11:08 pm:
Thanks everyone for all of your responses. Okay totally understand your slang now!
Cindy, I am giving him no supplements, especially since we feel his condition is due to over nutrition. I had read previous posts about rejuvinaid to which Dr. O stated if the foal is deficient in anything that the amounts listed were not enough to meet its needs. Buckeye seems similar with a few extra ingredients. The vet did give him shots with A D E and selenium. But I am willing to supplement if it does no harm.
Dr. O I have read the article and gone back to it several times. If you watched any of the videos as others have said he is off... have you seen a horse be off like this after receiving the oxytetracycline shots? If so does time tend help with the lameness? This is my biggest concern. While tendons relaxed he is off and I just don't know if that is how some horses recover versus others who never take a lame step after shots. My vet seems to feel give the foal 4 wks to develop before splinting, what are your thoughts on this? If presented with a choice of splinting or buting which would be better at this age? Thank you!
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Member:
babychop
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 11:26 pm:
I know the question wasn't addressed to me but I thought you might want some input from folks who have had to use it, I have had two foals that have had the tetracycline and neither had any lameness either before, during or after... They weren't as severe as yours though and they did straighten up perfectly. There may be something else going on here that your vet can diagnose.
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Member:
4jane
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Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 12:24 am:
Thanks Andrea. Yes, it is my fear that there is more than one thing going on or the contraction will not relax enough and he will remain lame. I was hoping maybe Dr. O or some members had seen foals that became lame during the recovery process and then became better with time and dietary adjustments.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 4:54 pm:
Hello 4jane,
Definately mild to moderately lame on the left fore however I do not believe it is the oxytet. Most often you see these guys lame from bruising at the sole of the toe but certainly a complete exam should be done to look for all causes of lameness. Yes they certainly can come sound but it depends on the cause and appropriate treatment.
DrO
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Member:
4jane
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Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 5:23 pm:
Update! Thanks to each of you. The vet came out and still seems to think he is doing great compared to how he was when he first saw him, thus he was not overly concerned that he is off on his left. He said the foal is still a little contracted at the knees (the left a little more so) but that he has made so much progress in such a short amount of time. He thinks he will continue to improve. Dam still giving milk that is too rich so must cut back to 3/4 flake each feeding. He said foal has probably put on 30 lbs and has an apple butt!
Gave him another injection of tetracycline, phosphan and vitamins ADE. I took the Buckeye ingredients out and showed them to him. He told me to supplement the dam and have him get it in the milk and I will give scoop of platinum performance each day.
Dr. O I had read your response in another post where you had mentioned sole bruising and I had that in my list of questions. Sadly, that question got lost in the shuffle and I didn't ask.
He gave me some tetracycline and phosphan to give orally. Have you ever heard of shots being supplemented like that?
Thanks again and I will keep everyone posted.
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Member:
cindy333
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Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 5:46 pm:
Our mare that had the very over in the knees foal, up on his toes in front and that was totally down on his pasterns behind is a 19 year old mare who ran until she was 10, this is her third foal, first one to be this way. I believe it is partly because of her age and her ability to assimilate the needs of the foal, the mare is in awesome shape, but during her pregnancy we had difficulty keeping extra weight on her, I didn't think the foal would improve, but truly believe that the Buckeye Foal Aide has made the major difference as we did nothing more then give him the foal aide, once he started eating at his Mom's grain, we also put him on Buckeye Foal Starter which is a pelleted creep feed for nursing foals. It is a milk based, highly digestible, mineral-dense starter feed. Between the Foal aide and Foal Starter, he is looking very good. In our case I think the mare didn't do all she could by him during the pregnancy.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2012 - 7:12 am:
No I have not heard of tetracycline used orally for this. It is generally thought that gi absorption of tetracycline is variable to poor and this only works with high doses in the blood. Was the lameness addressed at all? Lameness causes decreased weight bearing and potential exacerbates the flexural deformity.
DrO
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Member:
4jane
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Posted on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 1:18 am:
Thanks Cindy and Dr.O. I continue to hear great things about Buckeye and rejuvinaid. I do think mama needs the vitamins because her diet is sooo decreased. I would supplement him with it if I wouldn't be giving him too many vitamins via mom's milk plus the Buckeye.
Dr. O. do you think I should be giving the tet (20cc)and phosphan orally? Will it hurt his stomach or cause ulcers etc.?
The lameness was addressed to the extent that he felt he was doing better and could play which he couldn't before and to give it more time and allow tendons to stretch I guess. He didn't feel it was an infection or anything of that sort. However, he didn't look at his hoof for bruises either. I checked his feet today and can see a little more wear on the LF and at the toe there is a slit but the Rf has one to a lesser extent. Could this cause the lameness? He seems no worse, but no better either. In the pics with both hooves, the problem leg is on the bottom.
Let me know if anything stands out. Our ground does have loose rock.
I am assuming I should be having another vet out should this be done tomorrow (Fri) or can it wait until Monday as he is not getting worse. He's 11 days old. Thanks!
    }
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 7:48 am:
Because I cannot examine your foal I do not give specific advice. Any information I relay to you needs to be discussed with your veterinarian and decisions made as to how it might apply to your situation. I do not use tetracycline or oxytetracycline orally in horses for the reasons I put forth in the last post. There have been reported problems with infectious colitis in horses receiving oral tetracycline, presumably from the effect it has on the normal flora. There is little research on its use in foals that I am aware of.
Answering questions like "could it be" is of little help because there are so many things it could be. Certainly the top two would be the contracted tendons from the stress of stretching out and the toe from the stress of bearing the weight of the whole leg. Best is a physical exam to identify the cause and to address it as best as possible.
DrO
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 10:34 am:
Really no advice, but my heart goes out to you. Seeing the little guy want to run and play and wanting to "fix" him must be eating you up. I think I'd involve another vet if your resources allow that. He's such a cute colt. Good for you for hanging in there with him.
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Member:
4jane
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Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 1:40 am:
Well, I called the other vet we have used in the past. The appointment date is May 29th! Yikes! Yes Julie, this is eating me up alive. I spend all day either reading or watching him. I bought little gel pads and was going to try to stick one on the bad foot and wrap it. Then I watched him and thought, he could be a smidge better. Then again, could be my wishful thinking. I will reassess tomorrow. Thanks everyone.
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Member:
4jane
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 27, 2012 - 9:53 pm:
Hello everyone,
I just wanted to give you an update....a happy one! He is running and playing without problems. His hitch got better all on it's own within days of my last post. Still a little over at the knee but he seems to be improving with each day. Here is a pic...a very poor one as it's on a slant and I can't keep him standing still! Thanks everyone.
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 28, 2012 - 12:35 am:
excellent.... can you make another video for us to update us on too ... ?
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 28, 2012 - 12:38 am:
Excellent news! Thanks for updating.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 28, 2012 - 12:44 am:
That is wonderful! Thanks for the good news!
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Member:
babychop
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 28, 2012 - 1:02 am:
He looks WORLDS better! Please do post a little video of him - thanks for the update!
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Member:
4jane
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 28, 2012 - 1:34 am:
Thanks all. It's so thoughtful of you to take the time to see an updated video. This is just a tiny clip because now he follows me instead of running away! It's not much but I will try and take a better one and will post it. Thanks again!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97AStfzuQUE
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Member:
4jane
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Posted on Friday, Jun 29, 2012 - 12:39 am:
Here is a better video. Got out there this evening and this is the best one I could get of the little stinker!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXRuTWdxvCA
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Member:
babychop
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Posted on Friday, Jun 29, 2012 - 12:58 am:
What a sweet face he has!!! Still looks a bit over at the knee but the way he's going I think he'll straighten out.
If you haven't yet I would suggest giving Platinum Performance a call and talking to them about what supplement would work best for him - I know when I've had growth issues with my foals their stuff has always straightened them right up for me. Their phone number is at the top right of the page...
https://www.platinumperformance.com/foal/
https://www.platinumperformance.com/tendon/
https://www.platinumperformance.com/Platinum-Performance0153-Equine-Wellness-Form ula/productinfo/EPLAG10/
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Jun 29, 2012 - 1:02 am:
He's looking great! Glad he's a stinker; that means he's feeling good!
btw, I also like Platinum Performance supplements.
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Member:
4jane
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Posted on Friday, Jun 29, 2012 - 7:01 pm:
Thanks so much! I called Platinum Performance today. Momma is already on it and they told me to let him nibble on it too. They said the other thing I could put him on was the Osteon which is zeolite/silicon and omegas. Is this what you were referring to? I had been leaning towards Buckeye foal aide which is more vitamins. These seem like two very different products but both for same issues. I can say I have kept him lean and poor momma had to lose weight and I have succeeded in doing that. They are both on orchard grass but I am now sneaking in some alfalfa to mom.
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Member:
babychop
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Posted on Friday, Jun 29, 2012 - 7:37 pm:
Good girl, I'm glad you called them. They have put so much research into their products and the results I have received from using them are the 'proof in the pudding'.
I will caution you about keeping a proper balance of calcium and potassium for growth. Too much or not enough either way can lead to trouble - I bet they wouldn't mind talking to you again (wink), or talk to your vet (or both) about proper nutrition for your little guy. Perhaps DrO has some info about a good balance of the two. You really need to get it right during his early growth stages to avoid problems later.
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