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  Discussion on Unhappy mare....
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Member:
kjthoma

Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2012 - 7:29 pm:

I have no idea whether this is the appropriate place for this question or not.

I have a 7yo grey mare who is incredibly sweet, and normally very, very calm. This is the one who had a malignant melanoma removed early this year.

We recently moved from Tx. to WA about 3 months ago - and right now she is unrideable.

I was thinking girth/tack issues...altho her girthiness went away on a full stomach. But she can't stand having weight on her back. Wrings her neck, props, balks, bucks, threatens to rear, bites at the stirrup.

I had her to the vet a couple weeks ago - and they found that she had a 4.5cm follicle...Attributed the behavior to that. She was very, very good for the vet. He did a lameness exam, put his hands all over her, did a rectal, ultrasound, etc and she didn't blink.

Now she is increasingly touchy about her rt. flank. Had a vet out to the barn today, and she was much, much worse. You can usually crawl under this horse and she won't care.

He touched her abdomen and she snapped (unfortunately on my husband's finger - altho she didn't break skin). We got him out of the way and she kept snapping any time her belly was touched.

Decided to re-do the rectal...she was very calm till the vet kind of got to the region that hurt on the outside - at which point she started threatening to kick. He felt something hard, but was not sure if it was the ovary again (being concerned w/ dodging the foot).

So we tranq'd her and gave some pain meds to ultrasound....the ovary looked normal, and like she'd ovulated some time ago. But even sedated to where her head needed held up she reacted strongly to any touch from his hand or the ultrasound. She was jumping around like she was trying to get coordinated enough to kick.

Vet pulled progesterone to check levels, am guessing that a granuloma tumor would be one thing he is checking for?

I am concerned that he felt something else in there which may/may not have been the ovary - and am wondering if the 'standard' clinic ultrasound (as opposed to the portables) would have deeper penetration? And can they do ultrasound from the outside to see more 'stuff'???

If the progesterone comes back normal I'd at least like to delve in a little farther.

Only thing that the vet can think if the progesterone levels are OK is that she's still sore 'cause the follicle was so big and she's a little horse.

??
Member:
lrhughes

Posted on Monday, Oct 1, 2012 - 8:02 pm:

Could an enterolith cause this type problem including referred pain...
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 2, 2012 - 8:01 am:

Hello Kimberely,
The article discusses the diagnosis of GCTs and progesterone alone is not diagnostic though it can be helpful.

Without signs of colic I am slow to believe this is referred abdominal pain. If this is not GCT the fact that this happened after a move makes me wonder what in her environment that might have caused a change in her behavior.

As to different types of ultrasound there are units that can probe more deeply and usually are found at referral institutions. Let us know how this turns out.
DrO
Member:
kjthoma

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 3, 2012 - 5:45 pm:

Got the progesterone results - she was over 12!

Both vets think that it MIGHT be an adjustment issue due to the differences in light between NW Washington and Houston...

But the vet who did the progesterone level thinks that that measurement is bizarre enough, in addition w/ the level of sensitivity/pain she is showing, to go ahead and run a GCT panel.

If the lab they use uses UC Davis I asked him to check into the anti-Mullerian testing also, as it appears that they are now offering it.
Member:
kjthoma

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 3, 2012 - 7:21 pm:

More info...

Lab normal was 7.5 or so and she was close to 13.

But the increase in spookiness and pain still has everybody suspicious of a GCT.
Member:
kjthoma

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 3, 2012 - 10:55 pm:

PPS - I just read the article on persistent corpus leuti (ums?).

Sounds like that might explain the progesterone (maybe?) but are they typically painful?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Oct 5, 2012 - 8:11 am:

Kimberely,
What are the units of the progesterone measurement?
DrO
Member:
kjthoma

Posted on Friday, Oct 5, 2012 - 11:50 am:

Unfortunately I don't know. We're pulling blood Monday for teh CGT panel - I'll ask.
Member:
paul303

Posted on Monday, Oct 8, 2012 - 8:53 pm:

This may have nothing whatsoever to do with it, but, I have a mare that exhibited similar behaviour. My mare became nasty and panicky. She was sweaty, eventually trembling and seemed to show horrendous cramping of the muscles along one side of her abdomen. Banamine eased her pain, and we had her ultrasounded and did internals after a few of these early episodes. She always showed evidence of passage of large follicles. When she was younger, she would have 2 or sometimes, 3 episodes a year. As she got older, she had fewer episodes. She had none last year. This year, she had a mild one. Banamine and hosing eases it in about an hour. When these episodes strike, they are disturbing, because she is usually an affectionate silly mush...a cuddler. But when she starts hurting, she comes after you ( or other horses ), I believe it's out of frustration from the pain...but if you're not careful, you could get injured. Between episodes, this horse is extremely normal. No tenderness or touchiness whatsoever.

I have another mare, that exhibited very similar symptoms. Normally mild and a sweetheart, extremely trained as a western pleasure horse at a high level and shown extensively, she began to show increasing girthiness. She became agressive when touched or groomed on her sides. SHE turned out to have an horrendous case of ulcers. When she became really bad, it was after a move to a new farm and retirement to a gently used trail horse. Once treated, she quickly became her old sweet self.
Member:
kjthoma

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 9, 2012 - 1:54 pm:

It appears that the measure is ng/ml....I am not sure if they can still have high progesterone and have a CGT? Altho we should know something Friday.

She is apparently still cycling. She was really ugly to my husband on Sunday, and then kinda puppydog-ish yesterday.

I checked - and it was 3 weeks almost to the day when the vet found the huge follicle that was starting to soften up.

Having said that - she is still very protective of her right flank (alho not biting and snapping when you touch it)...more so than last time.
Member:
kjthoma

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 9, 2012 - 2:21 pm:

PS - mine perked up when I started her on ulcergard - altho it hasn't fixed the issue. I'm thinking her tummy was getting sore cause of the rest of her being sore.
Member:
kjthoma

Posted on Friday, Oct 12, 2012 - 7:57 pm:

Inhibin panel back today - and it's inconclusive. AMH on Monday....

Apparently progesterone was back down to normal (which makes sense since she was puppydog-ish again when the sample was taken), testosterone normal.

Inhibin slightly elevated.

lab normal is up to .7 and she was .74.
Member:
kjthoma

Posted on Monday, Oct 15, 2012 - 8:54 pm:

AMH negative....

So far we have that she's reasonably comfortable after ovulation and a day or 2 thereafter (altho more touchy than previously), but very unhappy when her progesterone starts going up.

She has gotten to where she doesn't want to be touched on either side - not just the right one.
Member:
kjthoma

Posted on Thursday, Oct 18, 2012 - 12:11 pm:

Vets have decided that we need to figure out whether this is pain or all hormonal.

I am curious as to why her strong reaction to ultrasound when sedated and on pain meds doesnt indicate that she's in pain?

Anyway - starting a 10 day course of banamine....
Member:
paul303

Posted on Friday, Oct 19, 2012 - 10:08 pm:

My mare responded to Banimine, as I said, and the older she got, the less problems arose. But there were definite problems with panic and nastiness during episodes. This year, we had only one episode in August. My mare is 20 now. Last year, she got through the year without problems. I've found that water under pressure ( massage ) helps until the Banimine kicks in.
Member:
kjthoma

Posted on Friday, Oct 19, 2012 - 11:45 pm:

Hey - thanks for the info that it helped!

She was definitely having days when I'd consider handling her much a BAD idea!

3 days after the last nasty episode - she was back to being a sweetie again....

This has been totally disturbing!
Member:
kjthoma

Posted on Friday, Oct 26, 2012 - 12:39 am:

After 10 days of banamine the mare is feeling a LOT more like herself - but is still very touchy around the last rib and flank on the right.

Just because of her history I'm skipping the regumate trial and going straight for an abdominal ultrasound....my biggest concern for her is a tumor.

Will let you know if they find anything.
Member:
frances

Posted on Friday, Oct 26, 2012 - 3:27 am:

Good luck Kimberly.
Member:
divamare

Posted on Friday, Oct 26, 2012 - 10:05 pm:

Good Luck and let us know
Member:
kjthoma

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 31, 2012 - 1:59 am:

Well, ultrasound didn't find anything except that the mare has a huge spleen and itty bitty liver. Which is good in that there wasn't anything odd where the scope could see (penetration of 25cm's), and bad in that we're still all confused.

Vet is checking to see if the apparently small liver is having difficulty processing something up here, and also checking for UTI's.

Now on a 2 wk banamine 'washout' before checking for other stuff....In the meantime I'm going to go ahead and get her scoped. Her tummy was definitely bothering her - but I think it is from what ever else was causing pain. If something turns up I will post under the appropriate area.
Member:
kjthoma

Posted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2012 - 12:42 am:

Apparently a whole lotta this was due to ulcers!!! She had a couple grade 2 bleeders - and this was after a month on a generic omeprazole.

She started coming 'round to herself after 30 days of GGard. We kept her on an additional 2 weeks and are just now starting a taper.

She is still having under saddle issues. Now that we have the 'don't touch me!!!' issues out of the way I had somebody go over her really thoroughly.

Turns out she has some wicked spasms right at the base of the wither where the waist of a saddle would be. Don't know whether they are from a lot of tension 'holding' herself when she hurt really badly or what....but at least we are starting to unravel the ball of string!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2012 - 6:45 pm:

I am glad to hear things are on the mend Kimberly.
DrO
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