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  Discussion on Cushings Horse Looks Unable to Get Up
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Member:
klowe

Posted on Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 - 12:43 pm:

Hi everyone, I am sure there are folks out there who can help me figure out what to do. Paint is a cushingoid horse who is very old, about 35. He has been on Pergolide for 3.5 years. His current dose is 1.5 mg. When I got home from work last night, he did not come for his bucket. I found him lying down. He did not appear to be in any great distress. Maybe this is awful, but I couldn't think of anything else to do but leave him there. (My finances are fairly dire at the moment.)

About six months ago he began dribbling urine on his hind legs periodically but other times urinated normally. At that time I did blood work and urinalysis (I am fortunate to be a med tech) and found no abnormalities. He also began to lose weight.

Neither the vet, nor my farrier, has had any advice in particular to offer. I personally think the end is coming, though I didn't think it would be so soon. So anyhow, I honestly believed I would find him dead this morning. Instead, he has shifted position. Sometimes he is lying flat and sometimes he is sort of reclining. I checked all his legs, and they all seem okay. He drank a little bit of water when I brought it to him, though lying flat makes it difficult. He has tried to get up, but just seems to lack strength. He is emaciated, although he has continued to eat with every appearance of enjoyment.

Short of calling the vet to come euthanize him, is there something I could or should do for him? This isn't a scenario I ever imagined. I don't want him to suffer more than necessary. But I also don't want to have to spend more money I don't really have...
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 - 1:24 pm:

Imo, his time has come. To keep him alive is to be cruel. A horse wasn't made to lie down for long periods, and he will soon develope digestive problems,sores, and other serious problems if he lives that long. If not in pain now, he soon will be. I'm sorry to be blunt; you obviously really care for him and have tried to do what is right for him, but imo there is nothing more to be done. I have had horses for over 60 yrs and have had to put many of them down over the years; thankfully, most of them due to old age. It is never easy. But it is much worse to watch them slowly die a painful death.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 - 1:57 pm:

You are in a very uncomfortable position of knowing that the end is soon and not having enough funds to end his life.

While the optimal thing for you to do is to have him euthanized, it the money that's holding you back from doing so. I think this horse is going to make that decision for you.

I would make him as comfortable as possible and treat him as if he is in hospice. If he will eat then feed him, if he wants to drink let him. If you have some pain meds give them to him.

If you see that he is obviously in pain, then you can make the call to the vet. If he seems to be going quietly, I would leave him be and let him pass on his own time. Horses have an uncanny way of knowing when this time is and you will know as well.

You can also call the vet and see if they will accept a payment plan if it does come down to having him euthanized.

Death can be peaceful and quiet especially death from old age. I can only hope and pray that this will be the way it is for Paint and he will soon be galloping over the Rainbow Bridge.

My prayers are with you as you go through this.

Rachelle
Member:
moesmom

Posted on Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 - 2:01 pm:

My heart goes out to you and as hard as it is to even suggest I agree with the previous post. My Mare is 34 and has Cushings. She is doing well however I know I would let her go if she ever ended up lying down and unable to get up. As it is now, she rarely ever rolls or lays down so that is a true sign for me.
Give your guy love and a bucket of his favorite treats and call the vet. God bless. Remember your horse for the unconditional love he has given you! It seems you have given him the best care possible. Take Care!
Member:
klowe

Posted on Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 - 2:17 pm:

No one should apologize for honesty, Sara. When it comes to advice, kindness is of far less use than honesty. I know you have far more experience that I ever will!

I actually agree with what everyone is saying. I have already watered him (I put some sugar and salt in it) and given him soaked pellets. While I was busy with water, he sat up and grabbed the bucket of pellets with his teeth and pulled it ove, much to my surprise. The trick is keeping my other guy away from the buckets...he prefers hay but of course, not if Paint is getting pellets! But I don't want to deprive Paint of company if I don't have to.

It has been clear to me for the past year that the end was coming. I have a very aged dog also, and I have been trying to come to terms with both events. Death comes for every living thing, after all. I can pay to have him taken care of, if need be. If it weren't for the fact that we have an extremely high water table here, I would have him euthanized and get someone with a tractor to bury him. Instead I will have to pay for the renderer to come and take his body. I can do that too; and there goes any extra cash I thought I might have! Sigh. Another law of nature, I think.

If he seems undistressed (except for not being able to get up) I will try to keep him comfortable til morning, and then reassess. I would like to avoid a Sunday surcharge for the vet if I can do so humanely. If he had seemed in pain last night, I would have called the vet no matter what.

I hate it most that money has to be a consideration at a time like this. But I suppose that's just one more aspect of reality...
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 - 2:58 pm:

Kathy, sadly, esp. in this economy, it seems like money is a consideration for everyone I know and it has an effect on many decissions we must make, even when it seems it shouldn't. We are lucky, as we live in an area where it is easy to bury the dead and inexpensive to have them euthanized.

I hope Trotter is right, and that he will be able to go peacefully. I had that happen with one horse I've owned; I found her in her stall a couple of hours after I'd put in her in the barn. There was no sign of struggle; it was as if she was sleeping. I always counted that as her final gift to me as it was really a blessing to have her pass that way.

As always, the main thing is his comfort level.
Member:
klowe

Posted on Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 - 3:15 pm:

Sara, I remember that happening, and it does seem a blessing in many ways. Paint right now seems not to be in pain or discomfort. I see urine but no manure, but he is not showing any signs of colic that I can tell. He doesn't want plain water, but is still eating soaked pellets with apparent enthusiam. (Rio is busy communing with horses overwintering in the field behind us). Luckily the weather is overcast but warm. I could rig a sunscreen for him if it gets too hot, can't quite figure out any rain protection. He's so furry, I have never seen him look cold in any way in any weather.

I spent half the night halfway wishing he would have died in the night on his own. And the other half wishing I were wrong about the seriousness of it all! I was just saying to a friend that I have never had an animal who made that difficult decision for me.

Thanks to you all who have taken time out on your Sunday for us. I will keep you posted.
Member:
klowe

Posted on Sunday, Jan 27, 2013 - 11:37 pm:

Paint continues to be down on the ground. He seems to try to get up periodically, which has kind of scooted him a few feet at a time from where I found him last night. He is still wanting to eat with apparent enjoyment. I gave him a couple of buckets of soaked pellets within reach for the night. In the morning I will call the vet.
Member:
althaea

Posted on Monday, Jan 28, 2013 - 12:47 am:

You, your family, Paint & his buddy are in my prayers. Chin up kiddo - he's lived and loved a long time. I have one soon to be 38 YO with Cushings that keeps hanging in there. He still chows down and other than periodic lameness he is ok. I dread the day when I come out to the old guy saying good bye.
My thoughts are with you - and yes ... it is a law of the universe that we spend our last dollar on our critters.
Member:
klowe

Posted on Monday, Jan 28, 2013 - 9:53 am:

Thank you, Althaea. He is clearly worse this morning, unable to sit up to eat at all. I have called the vet and they will send someone out this morning as soon as possible... I plan to call the renderer (which I hate, but certainly I can't afford to have the horse cremated, which is the other option here in the Rio Grande river valley!)I am thinking about leaving the body until late today or early tomorrow, to give Rio a chance to get used to the idea. I don't know if that will help, does anyone have any experience with this?

Then I will have to consider a new companion. I had actually about settled on a goat, in my own mind, having little money but lots of weeds. But this has happened so quickly, I am pretty sure my fencing won't stand up to a goat right now...
Member:
klowe

Posted on Monday, Jan 28, 2013 - 11:07 am:

And now it's done, Paint's part of it anyhow. The vet was kind enough to reschedule another appointment. Now Rio is standing quietly by the body. The vet suggests half a day at least to let the living adjust to the dead. And so it goes.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Monday, Jan 28, 2013 - 11:56 am:

Kathy,

I am so sorry, did Paint go on his own or with the vet's help. It was so quick from the time of the 10 am post until the last one an hour later. My vet is quick but never that quick.

Any way my condolences. Paint had a very long life in a home where he was appreciated and loved.

Take care
Rachelle
Member:
klowe

Posted on Monday, Jan 28, 2013 - 12:08 pm:

Thank you, Rachelle and everyone. The vet came super quick, for which I am grateful. The last time I had to wait for hours, though at that point the horse was not down.

Rio has called out a few times, so I have left him the option of going to the backyard where sometimes his buddies from next door will congregate...much to the detriment of my fence, but hopefully good for the horse spirit.

Usually if horses overwinter in the fields around me, they stay until the alfalfa farming starts around mid-March. I am hoping this gives me a bit of leeway to figure out what sort of companion I can get for him. Suggestions welcome!

This is a picture of Paint when I first got him. He was the first horse I ever owned. I knew he was older than his previous owner (former landlord) was saying. I didn't know how much older (3 times!), I didn't know he had ringbone, I had never heard of equine cushing's. But I would still do it all over again. He was a great guy and I'm glad I could give him a place during his last seven years.Paint
Member:
kathleen

Posted on Monday, Jan 28, 2013 - 12:15 pm:

RIP Paint. Rio will hold him in his heart, as will you.
Kathy Wheat
Member:
althaea

Posted on Monday, Jan 28, 2013 - 1:01 pm:

You could see if any nearby rescues have pasture buddies available. A horse nnot ridable but a great companion. In these lean times many rescues are overwhelmed with abandoned/newly donated companion horses. They are harder to place and take up valuable spaces. You could also look into a burro or a pony. Cheaper to feed than a horse but still need homes!
Good luck Kathy! Keep us posted.
Member:
klowe

Posted on Monday, Jan 28, 2013 - 2:13 pm:

I am trying to distinguish between ongoing expenses and those that are one time. I could come up with money for another animal, but I am trying hard to cut ongoing expenses. At one point I thought seriously of a mini as a companion, and I also find mini donkeys intriguing. But of course aside from less feed, there is hoof trimming etc. My vets are fairly convincing about the idea of a goat. Today I am thinking that I should invest in fence repair, which of course should be done anyhow, and trying a goat which sounds much cheaper to maintain.

But today seems not a day to decide anything, except when to call the guy to dispose of Paint. Rio has been alternating standing by him, going around calling him (or someone) and gazing at the horses in the field, who today are sadly in the far end of a very large field.

I thank all for good wishes. In thinking of cutting costs, I have sometimes thought I should give up my subscription, which I have had very little time to make use of. I am so glad I didn't!
Member:
natalya

Posted on Monday, Jan 28, 2013 - 3:57 pm:

My condolences Kathy, it’s always making me cry when I read someone’s horse went to the other side. So sad. But he has a long good life. We had a goat before for our horse as a companion, works ok. I just surrender my little Arab to rescue, I actually pay to take her, and I didn’t want her to be sold. Now we can visit her. Rescue has good sweet horses wanted home, some of them young.
Member:
judymac

Posted on Monday, Jan 28, 2013 - 6:48 pm:

Kathy in NM,
I am so sorry to read the passing of your loved horse. I have been there before and it is always sad, too bad our animals cannot live longer.

I have just 1 horse and he gets along fine by himself. He does not see,smell or hear another horse. I do take him up often 3-5 days a week to our riding club so he can socialize with his kind. Sometimes in the snowy winter months i can not get out for a month.
I would not worry about getting the other horse a companion if he can see other equines he should be fine.
Just my thoughts.
Judymac
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 - 8:52 am:

So sorry for your loss, Kathy.

I know of folks who have only one horse without a companion and they seem to do okay.

If they can see others, even at a distance, that makes them happier.

If they cannot see or know that others are at least somewhat near, however, this can make them more prone to trying to get out of their pasture to join up with neighboring horses, so if your fences are lacking this could become more important while you have only one horse.

With regard to goats, an adjoining neighbor of mine has had some and with field wire fences they were always getting their horns caught in the fence, leaving them perfect coyote prey. It is hard to keep goats in fences and my brother had some that would climb up on vehicles, etc., which wasn't too great.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 - 9:08 am:

I am one of those folks that has a horse that basically stays by himself. He has had an occasional pasture buddy, but mainly he's by himself. he just hangs out by the hayroom window all day. He is 24 and in my backyard. As long as he gets fed and has hay and water, he seems to do just fine. There are other horses not too far away and across a narrow street. But they don't call to him and he does not call to them.

I think you should wait a while and see how Rio adjusts. I'd fix the fences and see how it goes.

Rachelle
Member:
klowe

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 - 12:07 pm:

I have decided to at least not panic yet. The horses in back will be gone in mid-March when the irrigation ditch opens and alfalfa-growing begins again. I do have visions of Rio hopping the fence to join the others! But he does know this is home and what the routine is. In fact, this morning to give him his bucket, I wanted to put him in the pen that Paint used since it's more intact, and he objected to that quite vehemently. Interesting.

The horses have always been in my backyard, and front yard, too. I don't quite live up the the standards of the local rescues, even if I were to decide I wanted another horse. At first I thought we needed corrals, but I have come to enjoy having the horse(s) greet me at my car door or the porch stairs when I arrive home from work at night. And I tried to make part of the garage into a shelter, but the only time Paint and Cody, my previous herd boss, ever used it was at night. It looked like Cody herded Paint in there and kept him there after dark, until I arrived to feed them after work. So I gave up on that.

I think I am going to fix fences and look into a goat. I have been thinking also that I need a layer of electric fence at the top of the horse fence, to keep Rio from leaning on it! He's a very effective fence destroyer. My vet last summer was very convincing about how well goats as companions usually worked. I would look for one that was dehorned, though. The vet thought pygmy goats, but I think the dogs would harrass it. I am not sure what field fence is. What's called horse fence around here is that two by four inch woven wire.

I'm rambling on while waiting for the disposal guy to arrive, which should be any minute now. Rio is in the back communing with the herd. Which, when they appeared, I have encouraged to stay by scattering a little hay, which I ordinarily never do! But I thought he needed a little company and distraction this morning...

Thanks again for thoughts, everyone. I wish you all a good day.

Kathy
Member:
klowe

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 - 12:56 pm:

And it's over. I wish I didn't have to work today, so I could keep an eye on Rio and the dogs, too. Rio is very patient with the dogs, but the younger ones like to chase, and Rio does the running-kicking-farting thing when upset. I am not sure if he saw his buddy carted off or not. Personally, I hate that part and hid in the barn aka garage...

I will keep you all posted and thank you once again from the bottom of my heart for all the kind words.
Member:
klowe

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 - 12:59 pm:

P.S. I just checked my credit card and I can't believe they charged me $343 for a brief visit to euthanize a horse who was already down on the ground! Man, prices have skyrocketed in the past few years! I'm glad I didn't call on Sunday (though I feel guilty too)!!
Member:
judymac

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 - 4:21 pm:

Kathy in NM,
Now do not feel guilty. You said Paint did not seem to be uncomfortable. You and only you knew what the call should be.
We all have to make these decisions some day. Only God knows when it will be our animals time. It sounds like you are a very loving,careing person. Just remember the joys Paint brought you.

Judymac
Member:
mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 - 5:58 pm:

My condolences Kathy. No matter the circumstances, it is never easy to part with an old friend. Ditto to what Judy said above.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 - 6:55 pm:

I have never had a horse euthanized although I had my farm Vet come to my home and euthanize a beloved dog right in my dining room. His charges were not anywhere near what you were charged. Not even close.

I find that price really over the top!

But maybe it takes a lot more drug for a big animal and I realize that these drugs can be harder to obtain at times.

Would like to hear if other horse owners have had such a charge, or what Dr. O thinks.
Member:
althaea

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 - 9:11 pm:

Yes - the charge you received is about what I pay. Between the vet & the rendering truck (they don't allow you to bury a horse in So CA) it generally costs around $500. One of the reasons why the killer auctions are always loaded with confused elderly family pets.
Member:
lrhughes

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2013 - 9:44 pm:

So sorry for your loss Kathy. I've been there several times as I've had a number of ranch horses die over the past 60+. An old mare recently had to be put down and the vets charge was $300. It was a surprise to me, but I don't think atypical. If you live long enough many losses occur, but don't let that stop you from making new attachments. By the way, I've had horse who were fond of chickens, and also barn cats. If a couple kittens (neutered & shots) were raised and fed around the horses, they tended to stay around them...especially when the coyotes are roaming around. Good luck with your selection of company...I've also had horses on their own and that was ok if fences were good.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 30, 2013 - 12:34 am:

Charges depend a lot on where you live. We are lucky because we live very close to the vet clinic, charges in general are much lower here than in many areas ( esp.urban areas) and we can bury animals on our property ( 50 acres.) We have many animals buried, from horses to ferrets. I know in many areas people have to pay what seem like exhorbatant fees for ALL vet services, plus farm charges. We have one horse in training in CA and it is $100 farm visit fee, on top of any other charges! Needless to say, the trainer tries to do all treatments in groups so fees can be split. Still, pricey though.

I totally agree with LRH and others regarding both having a horse on his own, and replacing a lost animal. You are never "replacing" a friend; but you do find/make new ones that "fill a spot." And, I've had horses that seemed very happy on their own, although all but one or two have really appreciated having company and over the years I've seen some really strange "bed fellows." We used to have a rooster that slept on the back of one of our ponies every night. They were best friends during the day also, even tho' we had several other horses and a small flock of chickens. No accounting for friendships sometimes.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 30, 2013 - 6:38 am:

Typical NJ prices-$250-350 vet. He does not charge a farm fee or it would be more.

$450-500 animal removal( depends on cash or check)

I think its all relative- We also can pay up to $10-12 for a bale of grass hay!

Speaking of strange friendships. I had a dog that gave birth to 12 puppies under one of my horses( a stallion) feed tub. He didn't bother the mom or the puppies, but did get upset when we had to take them out for safety reasons.
Member:
klowe

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 30, 2013 - 2:22 pm:

I love the stories of cross-species friendships, CBS Sunday morning had a segment once that included an elephant at a sanctuary and a labrador! If Rio would just bond with my youngest and most energetic dog... It's funny, but when I first got Rio, he was rather aggressive to my 2 old dogs at feeding time. The dogs clearly got the message, but they were both arthritic and I was worried because they couldn't always move as fast as he wanted, any more than Paint could. When I got my youngest dog, Joker (whom I am sure had never seen a horse) I was concerned and kept them separated when I wasn't home. He barked and barked across the fence, and then invited Rio to come play. As it turned out, Rio was remarkably tolerant. When napping, if the dog came over and sniffed and barked, Rio and Paint would both just open an eye or raise their heads, and then go back to sleep. I have come to think that when he first arrived here, Rio was intent on establishing his position in the herd, and quite correctly assessed that the two dogs had more status than he did! Both of my newer adopted canines have gotten much more tolerant treatment, despite far worse behavior.

Paint was my only experience with a horse alone. When he belonged to the former landlord, I watched him lose 3 sets of companions. After the third, he was so depressed, he was almost unrecognizable as the guy who basically adopted both me and the dogs on first sight. I know nothing about his early life, but I always thought that in addition to temperament, at some point he had humans who treated him well.

I think I had just forgotten the cost of euthanasia, though it's gone up some in the 3 or 4 years since I last had to do this. My vets charge a $75 trip fee. It was a bit less, but went up at the height of gas prices and of course has not gone down. They won't come out for a dog, although they will treat a dog if they come out for horses. The disposal guy charges $150, which I don't think is horribly unreasonable, as he comes from Albuquerque, 40 miles away. I had to euthanize one of the old dogs 18 months ago, and the vet charged $130 for a 70 lb dog, I think.
I was just surprised and upset...there goes any savings I thought I had...

It's legal to bury on your own property in NM, unless like me you live in the flood plain, where the water table might be as high as six feet under the surface. You just can't bury deep enough, though I did bury the dog here despite the laws. It is NOT legal to sell horses for slaughter. I always thought of California as far more progressive than NM, so it surprises me to hear that it is legal there! Just goes to show, you never know.

I don't really feel guilty exactly. Looking at that pic of Paint, all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, so to speak (when I acquired my first house and first horse practically at the same instant) made me see how far downhill he had gone. I do wish I had paid more attention to him over the past year, and certainly there were things I would do over if I could, but I do know I did the best I could do at the time. I'm also a little melancholy, because it has made me think of what my expectation of my life were then, in 2007, and how things have actually occurred...

As for Rio, I will just watch him for now, and try to scrape up money to fix fencing. The herd will be moved in March, so I think he will be okay til then. And if he turns up missing with the gate closed, at least I will know exactly where to look!

If there's anyone out there who needs 1.5 mg Pergolide caps, I have around 30 that I would be glad to send to someone who can use them.

Chores and work are calling now. Thanks for all the input.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 30, 2013 - 4:00 pm:

Hello Kathy,
My condolences for your recent loss. Old horses down due to neurological problems (acute onsets of weakness with no definable cause) have a poor prognosis in my experience so I agree with your decision. As to costs I try and avoid commenting as the economic conditions and particulars are unique to each area and even to different veterinarians in the same area. If you feel the charges were unfair, contact your veterinarian and discuss it with them.
DrO
Member:
lrhughes

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 30, 2013 - 6:20 pm:

Hi Kathy- Sounds like you've got a good plan. Things happen and your handling them, so good on you! Personally, I'd rather my animals never live long enough to be incapacitated, just as I wish for myself, so Paint died at a good point in my book. Good luck.
Member:
klowe

Posted on Thursday, Jan 31, 2013 - 2:03 pm:

Thank you, Dr O. I think it's easier to be shocked at the costs, than to be shocked at the "sudden" onset of a terminal condition. I haven't seen the actual itemized bill yet, and if I have any questions I will certainly talk to the vets. I know when I pay for a field visit, partly what I am paying for is the money they lose by not being in the clinic where the patients come to them. (Though to my observation, they all enjoy being out in the field and seeing their patients in their actual habitats!) When I think things are too expensive, often what I really mean is that I am too poor!

Rio seems lonely, from a human perspective, but okay. Whatever I am going to do, I hope to have it accomplished by the time the herd is moved. He is spending a lot of time gazing after them when they are not within his comfort zone. And he is basically very smart, energetic, stubborn and curious, nicknamed Mr. Smartypants for his curiosity and propensity to get into everything. I hate to think of what he might do if bored and lonely. On the other hand, I understand goats can be pretty much the same. Just think of the trouble they can get into together!

So I am going to find a good goat book, and start learning. Anyone have ideas about breeds?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jan 31, 2013 - 8:32 pm:

Nubians are very attractive, smart, friendly and they give milk! It is hard to beat very fresh, very cold goats milk.
DrO
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