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  Discussion on Questionable toe/heel stance of horse in stall
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New Member:
drsg1

Posted on Saturday, Jun 8, 2013 - 11:08 pm:

I have an FEI dressage horse, and I recently noticed that he is standing with his front feet propped up in his shavings. He paws the shavings so they are under his heels, and then props his feet up on them. I have asked my vet about it, and she doesn't really have an answer. He does not test positive to hooftesters, and his flexions are a slight positive, not unusual for a 12 year old competing FEI horse. His feet look good as far as the angles go.

He does have a history of having some sore foot issues---in mid April, he got trimmed too short by a farrier, and his feet were incredibly sore. He was only 3" in length, and was sore to hooftesters at the front of his toe, in the sole area. He had to go 10 days without shoes (easy boots) and then got shoes back on that were seeded out aggressively. He seemed to recover just fine from this, and I never noticed him standing like he is now.

The only other comment to be made is that he has very chipped up feet, as a result of the bad shoe job, and also because he lost a shoe and tore his foot up. He never appeared lame from this.

I will also mention that the current farrier has a good size shoe on him, and he has a fairly upright foot--in other words, his hell is definitely not underun at all. He does have lots of frog, and the frog has grown so that it extends parallel to the shoes, and one foot it extends slightly past.

For the past month, he has been ridden on harder than normal footing. I am wondering, are his heels sore from the hard footing? If so, wouldn't the entire foot be sore? Also, could he have bruised heels because his frogs have extended so long that they are almost beyond the shoe and are making contact with the hard ground in a way that is not desireable?

He does feel sound to ride.

It bothers me that he stands this way. My vet was going to come back out next week, and flex him, and possibly inject his coffin joints. Would this be something to consider doing?

Thank you for any advice. I can also send pics if necessary.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jun 9, 2013 - 8:00 am:

Welcome Horsepia1,
If the horse is sound at the trot on lunge both ways while on hard ground, it is not likely that your horse does this from pain but there is some further testing you can do right now to test this hypothesis. It may be he finds the bedding uncomfortable and not providing enough heel support so he arranges it to prop up his heels. I wonder if he does this if firmer bedding is provided.

With such nebulous signs, localization would be tough and to start by injecting joints strikes me as a bit of a diagnostic overreach. Instead giving 2 weeks of a oral NSAID (phenylbutazone or firoxcib) and seeing if the behavior extinguishes then stopping the NSAID and seeing if the behavior starts back up would be a better way to test for the idea this is caused by pain.
To review the signs of lameness and the diagnostic steps see HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Localizing Lameness in the Horse which will link you to other specific articles on the diagnosis of foot disease.
DrO
New Member:
drsg1

Posted on Sunday, Jun 9, 2013 - 8:56 am:

Ok, thank you Do you think it's worth blocking one foot to see if he is slightly compensating, and if he is, then he would appear obviously lame on the other?

And is it possible for their heels to hurt from working on hard ground, or would their entire foot hurt?

Is it possible, that because his frogs touch the ground, that when he is in his stall and perhaps doesn't have thick enough bedding (the bedding is not very dense at all), then this puts pressure on his frogs which he may not like?

Thank you.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 11, 2013 - 7:09 am:

Taking your questions in order:
By trotting on a circle on hard ground you do about the same thing as the block: isolating out the inside foot on the circle. If after doing this you still remain uncertain of bilateral lameness blocking a single foot could further test the idea.

If the frogs / heels are healthy and of good conformation, generally horses become sore at the sole in the front of the foot first when bruised from overwork on hard ground.

That seems unlikely.
DrO
New Member:
drsg1

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 12, 2013 - 11:41 pm:

Hi,

Thank you for the information.

Three days ago, I had a good ride on my horse, and did some medium and extended trots. After that ride, he started to point his toes in the stall. The next day/ride, he wasn't so good. He didn't feel off, he just wasn't very forward and was also was a bit braced in his neck. The chirpractor/accupuncture came out shortly after I rode him that day, and she found some tightness in his shoulders, but she felt it was secondary to some soreness in the feet. When she put her needles in the accupressure point for the feet, the left one drew blood, which she said was a sign of inflammation. Also, during her appointment he was shifting his feet constantly, and also pointing a bit with one toe at the end....

The horse had the next day off, and today my vet came out. She went over his accupuncture/pressure points, standing without tack, which were all good, and then she watched him go under tack. She then flexed every joint thoroughly, including knees, fetlocks, front feet, hock, stifle, and SI. She didn't find anything significant. Only two slight positives, i.e. the left front foot and the right hind fetlock, but nothing significant, they were very slight..

She then took some foot balance xrays, and said his feet were shod very balanced side to side. She said his angles looked good, and said if we wanted to split hairs and have textbook perfect palmer angles, his left front could have 2 degrees more elevation, and his right front could have 1 degree more elevation....however, she said this wasn't really significant, and definitely would not be the cause for his toe pointing, etc. She even compared the foot balance xrays to prepuchase films I had from 6 months ago, and they were almost the same degree of angles, only one foot was 1 degree different. So, that ruled out foot balance, etc. as a cause for his propping/toe pointing..

The only thing we came up with as an explanation for his propping and pointing, , was that 2 1/2 weeks ago, he ahd a shoeing change, i.e. he went from aggressively seeded shoes to normal shoes with a rolled toe. We are thinking that perhaps this change, combined with hard footing, put pressure in an area he didn't like, thus the propping up and also now the toe pointing.

The farrier will come out either tomorrow or Friday and will change his shoes back to what he had, i.e. aggressively seeded shoes with no rolled toes. I am also going to start him on hot hoof, which my chiro/accupuncturist suggested, since I did not inject anything. I have to have it sent to me, so it will be a few days before I am able to start him on it.

Anyway, I thought I would give you an update, and if you have any additional thoughts about this, they are appreciated.

Thank you.
New Member:
drsg1

Posted on Friday, Jul 26, 2013 - 11:30 pm:

Hello,

I wanted to give an update on what has been going on with my horse, since I posted that he had a questionable heel/toe stance.

Basically, about 2 weeks after the last post I made, my horse had a bit of swelling on his ddft. I had it ultrasounded immediately, and it looked ok; however, it made me very concerned. I spoke to my vet about it, and also my concern about his standing on his toes, and propping his front feet all the time.

We ended up sending him for a standing MRI to do both front feet and the ddft.

The MRI showed the ddft to be fine, nothing unusual.

However, the feet were very inflamed. He had swelling in the synovial membrane (I think this is the right term) around his coffin joint. He also had fluid in his coffin joint and in the bottom of the pastern joint. And the most significant finding was that he had significant inflammation in the navicular bursae region of his feet, both front, the left worse than the right.

This would definitely explain my horse's propping of his feet. He had sore heels. There are no navicular changes present, but just a lot of inflammation.

One week ago, we injected the coffin joints, did a course of Tildren, and shock waved the foot. My vet didn't really want to inject the bursae yet.

My vet also recommended corrective shoeing, but I have a lot of experience with barefoot horses, and questioned whether I should have my horse get a proper barefoot trim and let him go barefoot so that his feet could get healthy, as they are not healthy looking...

I have recently consulted with Dr. Robert Bowker of Michigan--I sent him the history of the horse, all medical reports, and current photos of his feet (not in shoes since they got pulled for MRI). He agrees that the horse has unhealthy feet and that the best thing is to do a barefoot trim on the horse. He says that doing the navicular bursae is something to do as a last resort. Dr. Bowker says that my horse has underrun heels, and things that his frog is unhealthy. He says that studies show that prior to horses actually getting navicular disease, their frogs do not function properly and this contributes to the disease.....

Of couse, my horse's feet need the bars trimmed away, and he needs to gain a more level and greater weight bearing surface, etc..

Anyway, I have an appointment with the barefoot trimmer to come out. This guy will follow Dr. Bowker's recommendations, and also does the Pete Raimey style of trimming. I had success using this method with another navicular disease horse.

I would definitely say that after having spoken to several vets and had this experience, if a horse props his heels up and stands on his toes in the stall, he has heel pain. And, he is likely to move that way under saddle, i.e. landing toe first, which will compromise the way the ddft functions, etc.

I will keep you posted.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Jul 27, 2013 - 6:45 pm:

Hello Horstpia,
It is not diagnostic for heel pain. I have seen horses with founder also stand this way: it removes some of the pull of the DDF on the laminae.
DrO
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