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  Discussion on Biopred
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Member:
mhorse

Posted on Friday, Sep 20, 2013 - 10:08 pm:

Hi, My horse has had increasing problems with itchy mane and tail to the point of hair loss, sores and inflammation. After exhausting all possible treatments with no success I enlisted the expertise of my veterinarian. He thought it was a bacterial infection on top of a fungal infection. He prescribed Biopred 20cc IM BID and a special medicated shampoo. The problem is I HATE giving IM injections as much as my horse hates getting them. I finished day 2 but not sure I can keep this up for 3 more days. My fear is this may be a recurring problem. I looked up this particular medication and could find very little info. My question is... is there an oral alternative that would be as effective? Years ago I went to a vet for a horse with heaves and he gave me an injectable Dexamethasone but told me to give it orally. Is that an option for this? Thank you in advance for your advice:-)
Member:
juliem

Posted on Saturday, Sep 21, 2013 - 12:07 am:

Nothing to offer on Biopred, but read Dr. O's article on behavior modification. I believe he uses the needle shy horse as an example. Follow his article TO THE LETTER! I do that with all my horses, although only one has been needle shy. They see me with that needle and politely present their butt for the poke they know precedes a treat!
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Saturday, Sep 21, 2013 - 4:13 am:

Hello mhorse,
I can't say much about the Biopred, but was anything you tried related to worming him for neck thread worms. I could not figure out what was making my own horse itch. I had started him on a 5 day Panacur Powerpack treatment and on day three, his neck topline looked like wavy lumps. I had never seen that before. I started doing research to see if there was anything that presented with these symptoms and neck thread worms came up in the search.

There is a protocol that calls for doubledosing by weight every two weeks with Equi-max which is what I did for my guy. His itching stopped. Different horses present with different symptoms. You can not get rid of the adult threadworms, its the microfilia that presents the problems with the itching.

I hope you can get to the bottom of your horses problems.
Member:
mhorse

Posted on Saturday, Sep 21, 2013 - 11:48 am:

Hi, Thank you for your quick responses. I wasn't expecting any overnight!
First, the hatred of giving shots is more related to my aversion to causing the horse pain without being able to explain to him that it is for his own good. I have been working very hard to gain this horses trust that came to me about 6 month ago with some serious trust issues. It is more the THOUGHT of inflicting pain on him that is causing me such high anxiety. I did read the behavior modification article and it is basically my philosophy and how I work with my horses. This particular horse also doesn't have a ravenous appetite for treats like my other horses do so he could careless about my bribes. He is fine if I am calm but I get very anxious and he is pretty sensitive so he picks up on that easily. Sooo.. if there was an alternative I would trash those needles and never poke him again unless absolutely needed!
rtrotter- My horse does have the waving lumps on his neck. I thought maybe summer itch but my vet and others have said that is not something we get in this part of the country. I had read about the double dosing with Equi-max. I don't remember it being for neck thread worms. I mentioned to my vet who had never heard of such a thing and even advised against doing it! I have actually never heard of neck thread worms and so have been researching them. I just gave one dose of Eqimax yesterday. Wonder if I could go ahead and give him another dose today?? Willing to try anything to get this guy more comfortable.
Member:
juliem

Posted on Saturday, Sep 21, 2013 - 12:35 pm:

I've heard the same thing from my vet, but when my gelding rubbed his mane out and the skin raw I tried it and as advertised, the initial reaction was frantic itching. I guess from the die off. The second dosing two weeks later didn't increase itching and then it stopped completely. Also had a wavy bump along the base of the mane. Equimax lists threadworms as one of the species treated.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Sep 21, 2013 - 2:33 pm:

Some have had great results with that kind of treatment for thread worms.

I had kind of a similar-looking thing going on with my Arab who has EMS a couple of years ago and suspected thread worms but when the Vet cultured it the lesions turned out to be ring worm.

As to the antibiotic shots, I have had about every kind of skin problem known to the horse over the years and have always had just as good luck simply treating all of the conditions without resorting to the use of antibiotics.

But I washed the skin/lesions daily (sometimes twice) with either Betadine scrub or Rain Rot Relief and then in some cases treated with antibiotic ointment, Banixx spray or other remedies depending upon the type and location of the problem.

A couple of times when I used oral antibiotics that were chosen to kill the type of bacterias found on the basis of biopsies, it took just as long for the problem to go away as the other times when I just treated similar problems locally.

It is not too good to start a course of antibiotics and then stop after a day or two as you could encourage stuff to grow even more that way. If you are not up to giving the shots, don't start with it and always request oral drugs instead.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Saturday, Sep 21, 2013 - 2:35 pm:

When I was doing the research for the neck threadworms, I also researched the toxicity of the Equi-max( and several other wormers) The double dose by weight of the Equi-max is a very safe dosage. It needs to be done every two weeks for six weeks, because the life cycle of the microfilia is three weeks and this is meant to keep that population under control. The fact that you have only had this horse for 6 months and he was in bad shape makes me think that his worming program was not at all ideal. Here is a blog link that has some really good information on it. You will be amazed as to how many people's horses were misdiagnosed with all sorts of things and it wound up being a relatively easy solution of being wormed. https://thehorsesback.com/

Look for the blog link for neck thread worms.
Member:
mhorse

Posted on Saturday, Sep 21, 2013 - 9:52 pm:

Hmm...Thank you for the responses. Has me wondering. I've had a hard time keeping weight on this horse all summer also. I had pretty much ruled out worms because I have all my horse on a 2 month rotation and have never had problems with worms in the 20 years I have had horses. I thought I was doing pretty good considering I know people that only worm once a year!
I had held off on worming the horses until the vet came out thinking he might want to take a fecal sample but he didn't think it was needed. Now I'm wondering.
Well I survived day 3 of giving those horrible shots since no one told me an alternative. I still found him rubbing his neck along the post itching intensely. I suspect if it is worms the steroid will help with the post wormer intense itching but I'm not sure the antibiotic was really necessary. I see no signs of infection other than the inflammation which is the rippling in the neck. Vet said the infection was under the skin and that is why the topical medicated shampoo wouldn't help. I'm skeptical. Dr O what do you think?
Vicki- My vet knows how much I hate giving shots and I think would have given an oral alternative if there was one.I couldn't find exactly what Biopred is. I would think anyhow. That is why I was asking if anyone knew of one.
Julie- Did the waving bump on the base of the mane eventually go away?
Thanks Everyone!
Member:
juliem

Posted on Sunday, Sep 22, 2013 - 12:09 am:

The bump is still there, but it doesn't itch. I too have been extremely diligent about worming, but threadworms aren't killed by most wormers at the prescribed dosage apparently.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Sep 22, 2013 - 9:06 am:

In the case of my horse the wavy bumps went away after about a week. Threadworms do not show up in fecals either.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Sep 22, 2013 - 5:26 pm:

Not familiar with the Biopred but was given oral antibiotics for skin infections that one of mine had a couple of times.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Sep 22, 2013 - 6:32 pm:

Hello mhorse,
I do not know what Biopred is and a quick search of the internet does not help. What medication is in Biopred and what is the concentration? If it is a steroid as the "pred" in the name suggest, yes there are oral alternatives and you can read about these at HorseAdvice.com » Treatments and Medications for Horses » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » Steroids, Overview of Antiinflammatory Use.

As to the diagnosis the information you give is contradictory, or at least what you say the vet is saying is. If by "Summer Itch" you mean "Culicoides Hypersensitivity" then I don't know where in the US, except deserts and mountainous areas, where this is not fairly common and then the treatment, if Biopred is a steroid, is consistent with an allergy like CH and not with primary infections as your veterinarian has said. You can read more on CH and its treatments at HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Hair and Coat Problems / Itching / Irritated Skin » Culicoides.
DrO
Member:
mhorse

Posted on Monday, Sep 23, 2013 - 11:19 am:

Hi Dr O,
My vet said Biopred is a combination steroid/ antibiotic. There is no strength on it. Just instructions to give 20cc IM 2X day for 5 days. My vet said the horse had what started as a fungal infection and now had a secondary bacterial infection. I had been washing with a fungal spray and chlorahexadine. I asked why a topical solution wouldn't suffice and he said the infection was underneath the skin. I'm scratching my head as I see no signs of infection other than the waving bumps on the neck.
I think the steroid was given to calm the scratching.
I live in northern Indiana and everyone I talked to said we don't get summer itch around here that it is found in wet, humid climates. Maybe they just don't know it by that name? I have read the articles on the steroids and was really wondering about the dexamethasone inj being given orally as I mentioned another vet had given a horse I had for heaves. I will now go read the one on Culicoids. Thank you!
Member:
shirl

Posted on Monday, Sep 23, 2013 - 2:59 pm:

Hi mhorse,
Not true that summer itch can't happen unless it is damp and humid. I live in very dry, hot Tucson, AZ. My now deceased horse had summer itch horrible. Was treated with dex when it got really severe, she had the bumps, peeling areas under her mane, neck, etc. I think whether a horse gets it or not depends on what the horse may be allergic to, as she had severe allergies and rec'd injections for them also (was skin tested). She also was Cushings and their immune system isn't great. Just my thoughts.
Shirl
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 24, 2013 - 5:05 pm:

One of mine had a horrible case of hives last summer and the Vet gave a steroid shot and then I gave a steroid orally for a prescribed period of time. No antibiotic, however, as there was no infection.

Hope your horse is better soon!
Member:
mhorse

Posted on Monday, Sep 30, 2013 - 12:12 pm:

Thank you for all your advice and insight. Thought I would update everyone with what is going on with my horse. I finished giving the 5 day coarse of Biopred with not much relief from the itching. I called another vet who also said they don't see sweet itch around this area. I made an appt but then 2 days after I finished the shots I read on this site about mixing zinc oxide with Swat and it said dexamethasone but I mixed the rest of the Biopred instead. I worked it into his mane and tail and the next day there was NO SIGN of itching for the first time in a couple of months!!!!! His skin is slothing off and it makes a gooey mess but something has calmed the itch down and his skin is looking better....less irritated and the ripples on his neck are better.
So...what does this mean? Coincidence?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 2, 2013 - 7:06 pm:

Hello mhorse,
There continues to be too little information for judgements. The ingredients of the Biopred [there are many types of antibiotics and steroids], the concentration of these drugs, and a firm diagnosis or even list of likely rule outs would help.
DrO
Member:
mhorse

Posted on Thursday, Oct 3, 2013 - 9:29 pm:

Biopred= Procaine penicillin 240000iu/ml and prednisolone 10mg/ml. Dr O - From everything I have been reading I keep thinking it sounds most like summer itch but I have had 4 different vets tell me that it is not something they see in our area. I am looking for a firm diagnosis. My vet said bacterial infection on top of a fungal infection but I am not convinced that that is what is going on. I gave him the 5 day coarse of Biopred and have been washing him with the medicated soap my vet gave me to use. The itching didn't stop until I applied the zinc oxide/ Swat/ Biopred ointment mix which was 2 days AFTER the injections were complete. I have not completely ruled out worms. After reading your article I wish I had insisted on a fecal count. I wondered if it would be prudent to go ahead and double dose him with Equimax again this weekend since it will be 2 weeks since I gave him the first dose. I found him itching his tail again tonight so what ever is bothering is not cured. I think the ointment I have been applying is just controlling the itch. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Oct 6, 2013 - 10:15 am:

The doses of procaine penicillin is low for effectiveness against all but the most sensitive strep but the pred dose (400 mg daily) is pretty good. However I would not expect complete relief from the pruritis from allergic reactions over a five day course if the horse were continued to be stimulated.

If you are at odds with your veterinarian for the diagnosis and treatment, why not treat for both? Culicoides hypersensitivity, what I think you are calling Summer Itch, treatment is largely a management problem. Discuss your concerns with your vet and get both of you on the same page. You should also ask him for his advice on deworming.
DrO
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