|
|
Discussion on Advanced Ringbone / DJD struggles
|
| Author |
Message |
Member:
mysi
|
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 23, 2014 - 12:32 pm:
I though I would start this as a new discussion instead of adding it on to my one from 3 years ago.
My horse Moose is 23 now and his ringbone has advanced significantly (visually and clinically) but he had stayed fairly the same over the past few years with a few days here and there of bute (usually every 8 weeks pre and post trimming) , until late this past October when I noticed him in the pasture struggling to get up. It was hard to watch but after alot of flopping back down and struggle he managed to get up. I started him on a regimine of adequan and bute but he didn't bounce. I decided it was time for daily NSAID treatment and decided to go with previcox due to it being less harmful, although he did great with bute. He got 2 x 57mg daily, it was the only dose that was effective and worked great, he was a new man, until about 3 weeks ago when I noticed he was losing all of his muscle in his one butt cheek and dragging is hind toes. When he would go to get up he would sit like a dog and struggle to pull himself up as he swung his hind out behind him. This became harder for him as the days went on. Then last week he laid down in his stall and got stuck with his butt in the corner and after removing a wall in his stall we (6 people) were able to pull his butt to the middle of the stall. We went to get the tractor to pull him out of his stall and when it got there he popped up and bolted. Once moving he is happy and walks around all day. After discussing this with my vet she suggested switching him to bute for a while and see if he improves and its ok if he lays down for long periods as long as its not everyday. So...Sunday he was laying down when I got up to feed at 7AM, it had rained and it was slippery and he couldnt get any traction to get up and I let him lay there. At 2pm I couldn't stand it any longer and got my mower and started spinning around him, he got up in a frenzy but it was SCARY! I changed him to bute immediately and he has been able to get up with a little struggle Monday and Tuesday. He's on 2gms 2xday and I will lower it tomorrow to 2 in the AM and 1 PM. He's about 1700-1800lbs. I started looking into a harness to lift him with the tractor and have someone who will lease me one to pick him up when he's down. He's a super calm and level headed horse so I think he would be fine with it. I'm well aware that he's on that road... but he's so happy and mobile when he's up, he has such a will and he is the love of my life. I can't justify putting a horse down that is so happy and lively 95% of the time. They cant get in the joint to inject anymore, the last 2 times were completely ineffective and the vet said it was too calcified.
Questions Dr. O.,
What would you think a safe amount of bute is for a 1800lb horse?
Should I switch back to Previcoxx at a certain point? What would be the max dose for previcox at his weight?
Is the harness idea completely unreasonable?
Any other tips to make him more comfortable?
I had read about a drug called gabapentin (SPELLING?)is that something helpful?
Any advise would be GREATLY appreciated. I would do anything for this horse to make his life better.
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 23, 2014 - 3:31 pm:
good idea to start a new discussion , as you would have been told to ..
I have no answers for you but feel your pain for your horse ... i have seen a neighbors horse struggle with getting up to the point that she could no longer get up and the vet was called out later that day ... a horrible experience to witness ..
Your horse knows you love him ..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted with spots ..
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Saturday, Apr 26, 2014 - 7:44 am:
Hello Melissa,
I am sad to hear about your horse. Taking your questions one at a time:
1) At that weight the dosages of bute you are discussing might be tolerated long term but no one can predict what would be safe. We have a article that discusses this in detail including early detection of possible toxicity at HorseAdvice.com » Treatments and Medications for Horses » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » Phenylbutazone (Bute).
2) Concerning the firocoxib you should use the drug that seems most effective. You will find direct comparisions with bute (effectiveness and toxicity) at HorseAdvice.com » Treatments and Medications for Horses » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » EQUIOXX (firocoxib).
3) The harness idea is workable if you can find equipment that can handle that much weight. We managed a Arab stallion with a fused knee in this manner for several years but he weighed about 1000 lbs.
4)Loosing weight to a condition of about 4.5 could be very helpful.
5) I am not personally familiar with gabapentin use in horses. It does appear that bioavailability following oral admin is low in the horse. There have been some studies that might help you and your vet decide if this is possible for you:
J Vet Pharmacol Ther. 2010 Oct;33(5):485-94.
Pharmacokinetic profile and behavioral effects of gabapentin in the horse.
Terry RL1, McDonnell SM, Van Eps AW, Soma LR, Liu Y, Uboh CE, Moate PJ, Driessen B.
Gabapentin is being used in horses although its pharmacokinetic (PK) profile, pharmacodynamic (PD) effects and safety in the equine are not fully investigated. Therefore, we characterized PKs and cardiovascular and behavioral effects of gabapentin in horses. Gabapentin (20 mg/kg) was administered i.v. or p.o. to six horses using a randomized crossover design. Plasma gabapentin concentrations were measured in samples collected 0-48 h postadministration employing liquid chromatography-tandem mass spectrometry. Blood pressures, ECG, and sedation scores were recorded before and for 12 h after gabapentin dosage. Nineteen quantitative measures of behaviors were evaluated. After i.v. gabapentin, the decline in plasma drug concentration over time was best described by a 3-compartment mammillary model. Terminal elimination half-life (t(1/2γ) ) was 8.5 (7.1-13.3) h. After p.o. gabapentin terminal elimination half-life () was 7.7 (6.7-11.9) h. The mean oral bioavailability of gabapentin (± SD) was 16.2 ± 2.8% indicating relatively poor absorption of gabapentin following oral administration in horses. Gabapentin caused a significant increase in sedation scores for 1 h after i.v. dose only (P < 0.05). Among behaviors, drinking frequency was greater and standing rest duration was lower with i.v. gabapentin (P < 0.05). Horses tolerated both i.v. and p.o. gabapentin doses well. There were no significant differences in and . Oral administration yielded much lower plasma concentrations because of low bioavailability.
DrO
|
Member:
mysi
|
Posted on Monday, May 19, 2014 - 9:23 pm:
Thanks Dr. O for your reply and info.
Moose has been on Bute for almost a month now and I'm down to 1gm in the AM and 1gm in the PM and he has been doing well. He lays down every night at some point and when I get up at 5AM, I make him get up for breakfast. He wont get up on his own, I have to go out to him and clap telling him to get up, but he does and on most mornings on the first try. My boyfriend went out for me the other morning and tried the same thing and he wouldn't get up... he half heartedly tried several times and just plopped back down. I went out and he popped right up.
He's been walking around a lot now as because I have opened all the pastures for him to have access to, as I want to encourage him to move around more (to the demise of my strick rotational grazing). His rump muscle has not returned as I thought it would. Do you think it will come back?
I still have the harness available to me, but have not gone to get it yet because as you said, the equipment to pick him up is an issue. My tractor could handle 1000lbs but I'm afraid it would tip over with him.
I agree about the weight condition, he was a about a 5 at the end of winter... I was mortified with a 5 thinking he was too skinny. It was the first time I was able to feel his ribs since I've owned him, lol. He's probably a 5.5 now. I will really try to cut back. Where I get concerned is him loosing muscle and I'm not sure how to get a healthy balance in regards to feeding. By making sure he gets enough protein and nutrients. He is very picky and not a heavy eater. I could leave the feed room open and he would only nibble every few hours. He's refused many feeds and he is currently eating 3 lbs of Nutrena Safe Choice Senior 2xday, free choice pasture 24/7 and 4 lbs alfalfa cubes daily to nibble on. I feed this amount as I wanted to put weight on him because I though he was too skinny. (It's hard for me to see that) I'll cut back tomorrow!!! My other 5 horses eat pasture 24/7 and Enrich 32 ration balancer only (and they are all fat - 2 are muzzled on pasture). But I recently discovered a place you may know of -Reedy Fork Farm in Gibsonville that makes their own 100% organic horse feed that I may switch too (i will start a new discussion about that). My concern is him and his nutritional needs to maintain muscle, I know all of the statistical calorie needs but can you help me figure the least amount of calories with the highest amount of protein as far as feeds? Do you think a true grain mix would be beneficial? 16.8% protein,7.2%fat? Especially in winter? He had always been an easy keeper until the winter before last, and still considering his weight he is not to hard.
Also, what about winter time, do I put weight on him before winter?
Again, thank you for your help. I didn't get an email notification that you replied and didn't see it until today.
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Monday, May 19, 2014 - 11:36 pm:
sigh , i wish i could help with the nutritional aspect of this ... . keeping him lean is best i would guess ... in the winter you can blanket him to help him stay warm ...
will be interested in what Dr. o has to say ..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Saturday, May 24, 2014 - 8:36 am:
Sorry for the mistaken post ID. I was troubleshooting an account and did not log out.
DrO
Hello Melissa,
You cannot push muscle on an animal by just feeding elevated levels of protein. It takes work done by the muscle to build muscle. As long as the nutritional aspects of the food are balanced, keeping the protein about 12%, you are doing all you can from a nutritional aspect to help with muscle growth. Your current diet looks fine and use the amount of concentrate to control overall condition.
Whether winter or summer I would keep him as light as is practical.
DrO
|
Member:
mysi
|
Posted on Saturday, May 24, 2014 - 6:29 pm:
I guess I knew that...I'm just over thinking everything. Despirate I guess. He actually look fabulous now, I just dont want to cut his feed back to keep weight off and have him lose muscle mass.
Yesterday morning (5:30AM) Moose was laying down when I got up as usual, but wouldn't get up. He struggled at first but eventually gave up. I let him relax and worked outside doing chores and tried every hour or so to encourage him to get up. He tried but not really hard. I tried everything to no avail. Finally at 11am I got the mower out and circled him engaging the deck and he finally on the 3rd try go up. He furiously ran to the barn. I went in there and he was unusually frantic, swinging his leg and tail, scurrying in circles. Moose is a very very very calm horse even with pain. I've never seen this behavior. I got his halter on and put him on the cross ties to examine him and when I got to his left hind (his ringbone leg), he had a very large (1/2 of a basketball) mass swelling that was sort of lumpy on his butt near the top of his tail and towards the crack. As soon as I put my hand softly on it he flipped out and broke through the cross ties and bolted, something he has never done or even came close to doing. I called my vet out and it appears he has injured his semitendinosus muscle, which was already significantly atrophied already. So...he is on dex 5cc 2xDay and bute 2gm 2xDay. My vet gave him 20cc IV Dex when her was here. Now I hope that he doesn't lay down again anytime soon. Today he is more comfortable but still noticeably lame and not walking around much. I know the situation is deteriorating for him, its not likely he will be able to get up again. It's so hard to see an unbelievable healthy and stellar horse (not to mention the love of my life) lose his life over this...if I could just keep him up. 
|
Member:
mysi
|
Posted on Sunday, May 25, 2014 - 10:57 pm:
well... at 10PM last night Moose laid down again. This morning he was still down and couldn't get up. Not even close... he was done. We spent the day eating apples, carrots and alfalfa cubes and I let him go this afternoon. We was my first horse, the love of my life and in the end I freed him of his pain.
Thank you for your advice Dr. O.
|
Member:
lucyc1
|
Posted on Sunday, May 25, 2014 - 11:12 pm:
Oh Melissa - I am so sorry for your loss. But I'm glad you had the time to share with apples and carrots and alfalfa and lots and lots of love. He surely knew how much he was loved!
It's so hard.......
|
Member:
juliem
|
Posted on Sunday, May 25, 2014 - 11:18 pm:
Melissa, I remember your earlier posts about Moose and his saga. You did the final kindness for him. Bless you and Godspeed Moose.
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Monday, May 26, 2014 - 12:18 am:
RIP Moose .... Hugs to you Melissa..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them spots ..
|
Member:
frances
|
Posted on Monday, May 26, 2014 - 1:52 am:
I'm so very sorry to read this news. It must have been exceptionally hard on you since Moose was in such great shape in other ways. My heart goes out to you and him.
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 4:58 pm:
My condolences Melissa,
I am sure you have made the best decision for him.
DrO
|
|
|
