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  Discussion on Swollen legs, itchy skin, rain scald and urticaria
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New Member:
Mutley

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 12, 2005 - 5:15 pm:

Hi - I'm new and would be very grateful for some advice. I have a mare at grass in SW France with a history of allergy problems (?). I'll keep the information to bullet points.
Over-weight pony (14hh). Merens breed (like a English Dales). Shinny black coat when not having all the other problems and otherwise healthy. Living at grass. Bought 1 1/2 years ago in April 2004. Immediately had coat problems upon arrival (and had severe behavioural problems - she was barging, rearing, etc - use natural horsemanship methods and she is becoming lovely now). Hard to get history on mare. she's 11 years old and all I know is that 'not to give her lucerne as she fell down once'. I tried finding more, but got a brick wall - the old owner is hiding something? This first coat problem was itching and hair loss on top of quarters - skin still connected to hair shaft when pulled off. Vet said not ring worm. Possible rain scald (it had been a very, very wet spring and she had been out all the time and not cared for properly for a year). two months later in May of 2004 I moved her to new pastures. No problems apart from being VERY bothered by flies... until the autumn and heavy rain which bought rain scald again (if this is what it was?). I bought her a water-proof turn-out rug and caught problem in time so it did not get worse and got better on it's own (I used 'udder cream' as vets here are very rural and help is hard to come by - no criticism intended). During begining of this spring her coat was always itchy - I bought herbal supplements, used garlic and bathed her in tea tree and neem shampoo - this seemed to help. I also bought her a fly sheet and mask as she is covered in biting insects (the other horse is bothered a little, but does not seem to attract them or react as she does). She has many itchy areas in her heels (like small points of exuding puss) and under her chest - scabby). April 2005 she had front right fetlock and rear left fetlock swollen - I called the vet as it seemed bizarre. he said mild laminitus and gave anti-inflamatory. farrier said the next day that there was no sign at all of laminitus. she was in field 1 with lots of grass so moved her to field 2 and put 'bucket' on her to restrict her grass intake (just in case). the swelling went down in a couple of days. in july i put her back in field 1. seven days later she gets urticaria - extreme swelling of head (couldn't open eyes and difficulty breathing). the swelling continued to behind shoulders; getting less swollen and becoming like raised wheals (there was however two large 'bumps' between her thighs and her vulva was swollen) with 1 degree increase in temp. called vet as emergency - he said not snake bite but allergic reaction to insects or 'she's stuck her nose in something'. he thought not something eaten as it was not all over body. Since Sept both her and horse have had harvest mites (they had them last year). she is much worse than him. I tried a chemical parasite killer, but it did nothing. I use camrosa cream which seems to be like petroleum jelly (vaseline) and it has cleared it up fairly quickly, but she has really suffered with itchyness to the point of having bleeding sores on her face. It is much much better, but this evening she had both hind legs very swollen upto hocks. no apparent pain, but heat. I have read your articles and will investigate more tomorrow morning (it was getting dark) to see if it 'pits'. she seemed stiff, but could walk. she's eating and has a good appetite.
that's all for now. sorry for long history. By the way, she's on a herbal liver tonic, had prebiotics over this last month and is on indian ayuvedic medicine for itchy coats. where shall I start? The vet said not to bother with a blood test when she had urticaria (if that's what it was). what should I look for? I feel like problems are all very linked. Do you need other information?
thank you for being here.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Oct 13, 2005 - 8:09 am:

The skin condition you call rain scald is definitely Dermatophillus see Equine Diseases » Skin Diseases » Hair and Coat Problems / Itching / Irritated Skin » Rain Rot and Rain Scald: Dermatophillus. I agree that did not sound like founder and for more on harvest mites see, Equine Diseases » Skin Diseases » Hair and Coat Problems / Itching / Irritated Skin » Lice and Mites of Horses.

Yes there does seem to be some consistent thread: 1. You seem to have a lot of parasitic bugs.
2. Your horse does seem to fairly sensitive to antigenic stimulation resulting in a lot of allergic conditions.

There is not enough information yet to decide if this hind limb problem is a further extension of these 2 problems or something else but a thorough exam including body temperature should help. As you posted in the hot, painful leg topic I am assuming you have read the article, it will give you ideas and clinical findings to look for.
DrO
New Member:
Mutley

Posted on Thursday, Oct 13, 2005 - 12:25 pm:

Thanks very much for your reply. I have been trying to get hold of vet today, but no joy. This morning the other horse had also got one swollen hind leg and the other hind is showing signs. Please would you advise as to the likelihood of it being stocking (and is this also termed lymphangitis? - a friend said it sounds like it and can be caused by too much protein) - as it seems to be as per the symptoms but they are out at grass and I am a little confused by the terms despite my reading. The mares temp is normally 37.4 but is now 37.7. she is a bit depressed and wasn't terribly interesting in eating. I am cold hosing and will take her for a little walk but am not sure if this is good or not. She is stiff and uncomfortable but not lame (though hard to tell). Her mucus membranes are slightly less pink than normal. Could this be from eating too much rich grass?(there is clover, fescue, cocksfoot and 'lotier' (french word that I can't find in any of my dictionaries) in that field (this year the local farmers had four cuts from their lucerne fields - last year only 1 cut). I have put them onto a starvation paddock, but without the vet am worried it could turn into laminitus - especially the pony. should I ask for a bloodtest? any other thoughts gratefully received. thank you
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Oct 14, 2005 - 7:14 am:

There is no condition like this caused by too much protein or too rich a feed etc... however the article describes some toxic weeds that might.

Not being able to examine the horse Jenifer, I cannot diagnose the condition but the increased temperature and the systemic signs certainly suggest a systemic disease and not a local one and that you have several horses effected suggest a infection or toxin.

Lymphangitis is a active inflammatory process while stocking up is a cool passive pooling of fluid. To read more about the difference try this, Equine Diseases » Skin Diseases » Swellings / Localized Infection / Abscesses » Diagnosing and Assessing Swellings in Horses.
DrO
New Member:
Mutley

Posted on Saturday, Oct 15, 2005 - 4:51 am:

The vet is finally coming today. The horse's leg had gone done near back to normal and the pony is slightly better, so we'll see. I have noticed they are eating acorns. This is their second year in fields surrounded my oak trees and acorns, but there there were no problems last year. Could they have got a taste for them? How many is a problem? Could their kidneys be damaged? Their faeces and urine look normal and their mucus membranes fine. Any thoughts from anyone gratefully received.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Oct 15, 2005 - 10:53 am:

Unfortunately no one has studied the amount of acorns that cause poisoning and in our area there are horses that seem to grow fat on them in the fall. We discuss acorn poisoning and there is a description of a case of acorn poisoning in a horse in the scientific report section of the article. You will find it at Equine Diseases » Poisons , Venoms & Poisonous Plants » Topic Poisons, Poisonous Plants, and Venemous Animals.
DrO
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Sunday, Oct 16, 2005 - 1:56 am:

Just a guess but not eating lucerne "because the horse fall down" might be laminitis? Not necessarily related to your current problem.

All the best

Imogen
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Oct 16, 2005 - 5:10 pm:

Some species of acorns are more toxic than others and the green ones are much more toxic than the ripe ones. My three horses gorge themselves each year, and now and then have had some reactions, in addition to getting fatter! Acorn season usually brings some sores on the legs of one of my horses, and have also had a mild colic in another (a dose of banamine fixed that). The horses pick up a lot of extra sand while eating the acorns off the sandy areas under the trees in my Florida pasture. I do the 7 consecutive days per month of psyllium for this and monitor the sand load in their manure because sometimes find I must do some extra "sanding" beyond those 7 days during this season. It is thought the acorns may cause colic, laminitis, and possibly kidney and liver damage if enough are ingested. If your horse is eating many of them you should be able to see some undigested pieces of acorns in the manure. Some Vets around here tell you it is a good idea to rake them up if your horses eat many of them, and though I have picked up bags of them some years, it is simply impossible to keep up so I now just watch for signs of illness. It has been suggested to give the horses about 3,000 units of Vitamin E to offset the toxic effect, and some years I have done that. Signs to watch for that I have read are excessive urination and later a rough looking coat. Of course, if your horse gets colic or laminitis, those are other symptoms! I have heard of Vet. diagnosed cases of both due to acorn ingestion in our area. As with other toxins, reactions can vary widely depending upon the individual horse. (One year when the crop was very heavy one of my horses did show excessive urination and a rough coat but this cleared up fairly quickly.) If you find your horse is eating lots of acorns I think it is a good idea to cut back on their grain/concentrates, or anything that is very high in protein or energy.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Oct 17, 2005 - 8:57 am:

Vicki I disagree strongly with the last statement in your paragraph above. If the horse is eating a lot of acorns that are potentially toxic and then you cut back on other feedstuffs you will stimulating them to eat more potentially toxic acorns, right?
DrO
Member:
Mutley

Posted on Monday, Oct 17, 2005 - 11:00 am:

Dear Imogen
thanks for your thoughts. yes, i agree that it may have been laminitis when the old owner said 'the horse fell down'. Unfortunately he is clearly reluctant to give me any other background information. e.g I had serious behavioural problems with her when I first got her a year ago and he would just keep saying she has 'du caractere' which means 'strong willed' (understatement if ever there was one). Some of her problems were due to a bad back and teeth problems - both of which are now sorted. the others were due to dealing with fear by using dominance - most problems are nearly sorted (apart from if I need to inject her). the remaining mystery is her skin/allergy problems. I gave her a natural liver cleanser and prebiotics and ayrvedic medicine, but then this problem with the legs arrived. she and my horse are much better today - hardly any signs. so fingers crossed. I am tryig to identify every single grass and plant on the land, but it's hard. onwards and upwards!

dear vicki
thanks for your help. would you tell me how you feed the vitamin E - is it a powder bought from the pharmacy (I have problems getting horse supplements in france). And do you know if there are any side affects? Is is safe? The horse is eating a lot of dark acorns and with the recent problem I am very worried. Like you, our land is covered with oak trees so to rake them would be impossible.
Thanks DrO I would agree that to cut down on other feedstuffs could cause more problems and encourage them to eat the acorns.
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Monday, Oct 17, 2005 - 11:14 am:

That has been something I also have wondered about, but do you think they will actually eat fewer acorns if given more grain? Though my horses have ample grass available, they still think acorns are delightful. Because it is acorn season, I have begun putting hay into all the hay racks in the barn in the hope this will satisfy them in addition to their bit of grain before they leave the barn, which is when they begin foraging for the acorns. Since I did this I DO believe they have decreased the amount of acorns they are picking up, but the novelty of the hay seems to be waning and they are mostly wasting it. (Two are FAT and the other who has been perfect was fatter when I returned from vacation due to eating acorns and not being worked.) My thought has been that they are going to eat the acorns anyway, and I don't want to risk laminitis because of over-eating. Do you think their searching for the acorns means they need more protein? In part, I think it is a yummy novelty, like humans overeating peaches or apples in season. The odd and nasty things I have seen some horses eat in spite of ample, available grass is amazing. I have considered boarding my horses through acorn season and letting cattle into the pasture to eat the acorns, but a normal acorn season is rather lengthy. I know people who have cut the oak trees down in their pasture areas, but I hate to do that. I suggested to my husband that we put up some additional fencing to keep the horses from under the oak trees but he thinks he has put up enough miles of fence, plus the shade is a good thing. Last year the acorns blew off the trees when green (my guys don't like them green), which was one blessing of 3 hurricanes! Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this matter.
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Monday, Oct 17, 2005 - 11:40 am:

Hi, Jennifer -- You and I must have been posting at the same time, or I missed your post! It is possible here to buy the Vitamin E (usually plus selenium) specifically for the horses, but I have also bought the 1000 unit gel capsules that are manufactured for human consumption. I don't know for sure if it actually helps, but do not believe it can cause any harm, and my Vet. did suggest this. The reasoning is that it will act as an anti-oxidant. I just add the 3 gel caps right into their grain ration and they eat them. Though many would not agree with me (and maybe it does not matter)I purchase the D-Alpha rather than the Dl-Alpha Vitamin E because it is from a natural source, and some feel better absorbed because of this. The dosage of 3 - 4 thousand units (3 - 4 capsules) was suggested daily for an approximate 1,000 pound horse. When acorn season is over, it is always a huge relief!
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Monday, Oct 17, 2005 - 11:59 am:

Final thought -- we DO cut down black cherry or cherry laurel trees from our pastures in Florida. I have been told of horses whose legs have blown up due to eating cherry leaves (most toxic when wilted and somewhat when new, young and green). A friend of mine also gave a whole truckload of carrots to her horses once (some of them were beginning to mold) and this caused leg swelling. A dose of banamine cleared the problem up. As Dr. O said, there are many possible toxins out there, and you are on the right track by studying your pasture, and all the sites on toxic plants to learn about the potential hazards.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 18, 2005 - 6:52 am:

Energy is one of the things for which there is an absolute appetite and when it goes down in one part of the diet the horse will respond by increasing it in another part of the diet. Most plant poisonings in horses do occur because of limited amounts of alternative non-toxic foodstuffs. If your horses are growing fat on acorns it is a tricky situation and what I recommend locally is raking or vacuum up the largest portion of acorns twice weekly with one of the lawn mower vacuum systems. Since we do not get reports of acorn poisoning locally, I don't know anyone who has followed my recommendations. An important point about acorn poisoning is that it can be an accumulative toxin, slowly killing the kidneys over time and I am not aware if the vitamin E will lessen this.
DrO
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 18, 2005 - 11:25 am:

Thanks, I will try this. One of my boys had another mind colic last night and suspect it again relates to his foraging.
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