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Discussion on Diarrhea problems in weanling
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New Member:
Twhgait
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Posted on Friday, Nov 11, 2005 - 12:02 am:
Let me start by saying, excellent articles!! I got more info from them then anything I've found on the web! I have a long story, which I will try to make as short as possible:
I own a 5.5 month old foal who has had cow-pie manure off and on since mid-September. Here's his story:
He had surgery at 8 days of age (June 8th) due to a large scrotal hernia (he was gelded also). Recovery was complicated by post op infection 3 weeks after surgery. He was treated for the postop infection with SMZ x 5 weeks until the swelling was gone. After that he did very well. Fast forward to September 14th. We moved them home from the boarding barn where he was born - same grain, different hay and new grass pasture(which him and his dam were weaned onto). 6 days after arriving home the foal coliced with watery diarrhea. Vet was out and we treated him with IV fluids, IV banamine, gastroguard (questioning if he had an ulcer from surgery exacerbated by stress), yougurt and IV gentamycin. Blood work was normal. No temp. He recovered very quickly and did well until Sept 21st when we noticed cowpie manure. He was still on his gastroguard and yougurt at this point. We wormed him (he was coming due again) and I was also to try Sand clear but he wouldn't eat it no matter how I presented it to him. I also started him on Fast Track probiotic by this point. Manure became normal again although he continued to cowpie 2-4 times a day-usually only during the day. I could watch his manure soften until it was like pancake batter, then the next one would be back to normal. I was finally successful in getting him to eat the Sand Clear and he had normal manure that whole week he was on it and the second week after it. Last week he began having cowpies again and they were increasing in frequency. I called the vet and we are back on the sand clear again for 2 weeks and then I am to call back on Nov. 21st for a progress report. During this past 7 weeks, my foal is growing (He's gained close to 100lbs since being home), he's active and he looks healthy. Now that he's back on the sand clear, he's got normal manure again. Getting him to EAT the sand clear is another issue, but I can usually get him to do it. His dam is leaving on Monday so we can wean him. He'll be staying here with his granddam. I already have 2 tubes of gastroguard and I'm starting him on that on Saturday and he will get 8 doses. This will hopefully ward off any problems if it is an ulcer. My vet doesn't feel it's an ulcer because he still had the diarrhea while on the gastroguard. I'm wondering if maybe it's a lactose intolerance he developed after his colic episode. My hay is a grass/alfalfa mix-good quality. He was on straight alfalfa before he came home so I don't believe it could be the alfalfa causing him any issues. He's always been wormed on time - never missed any - as is his dam. Outside of his bellyache in Sept, he has shown no signs of abdominal discomfort. He eats, drinks and nurses regularly. He has never had a fever with this. I'm hoping that once Mom leaves and he's done nursing I will see improvement even off of the sand clear. We have NOT done any fecal tests at this point, although this will be a bridge to cross next if weaning doesn't seem to help. I'm curious to know your thoughts on this whole situation and if anybody else has dealt with anything like this before? Sorry it's so long 
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New Member:
Twhgait
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Posted on Friday, Nov 11, 2005 - 6:28 pm:
Just wanted to add that he had several cowpies today-even on the sand clear  I'm not sure why that's not working this time around.
I guess I'm at my wits end!
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Member:
Angel77
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Posted on Friday, Nov 11, 2005 - 8:58 pm:
Dear Kim,
My horse had diarrhea for 4 days. He will be 12 in Jan 2006. Called the vet. She gave me Biosponge. Apparently made for babies with the squirts. It comes in tubed paste. As well as powder so that it can be administered either by top dressing feed or mixed into paste and given orally by 60cc syringe. It really worked for us.
I gave it to my horse for two days instead of the recommended three days because after two days he was fine. So there was no need to further clog him up. The vet said this may happen. 2 days worked just as well.
With the prior colic incident with your baby Dr.O would be able to advise you further.
I also use sand clear once a month purge. This seems to work very well clearing sand. I definitely believe in this product.
The reason for my horses problem was the changing food at where I board. I have fixed the changing food problem by buying my own hay. This has made a tremendous difference in my horses overall health. Our barn just recently filled up to 125 horses about three months ago. Apparently it is difficult for the owners to keep the same hay quality all the time.
Anyway, hope this helps.
Good Luck!!!
WTG
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 12, 2005 - 10:09 am:
First Kim as long as your baby is healthy and receiving overall good care the cow patty stools are not all that bad and should not be looked upon as something that needs immediate or aggressive therapy. Most of these problems are self resolving and your first step is reviewing the total management with an emphasis on environment, nutrition, and parasite control. The immediate questions I have is why did you figure Sand Clear was needed in the first case and second is there a reason to believe he would be exposed to a high level of parasites?
DrO
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New Member:
Twhgait
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 12, 2005 - 5:15 pm:
Hi DrO, I was just out watching the foal attempt to "beat up" his granddam and I agree with your reply totally! I think I'm making myself crazy for a whole lot of nothing right now. Nutrition is one of my weak points, but I have been reading your articles and I am re-assessing that! Otherwise, because I am so anal about my horses, I think I'm on top of everything else.
Regarding the sand clear: I really think initially my vet was convinced "Legs" had an ulcer; he fit the profile perfectly and certainly his move here and the new hay would have been triggers. When he started with the cow pie manure he was still on the gastroguard so when I called my vet he said maybe not an ulcer, maybe sand or he needs to be wormed (he was coming due by then-he gets monthly ivermectin). I checked his manure with the rubber glove test and it did come back with a very small amount of sand. Because the sand was present, my vet said do the sand clear. I think he was hoping that would be the end of it too. This second round of sand clear was started a week early because the cowpies were increasing in frequency again from the usual 2-4 day.
Regarding parasites, I think yes, it's possible. He was born at a boarding stable with horses coming and going frequently. He was only turned out with his mom, but the paddock they were in was a heavily used one and I know she didn't strip out any old manure first. Both mom and granddam were wormed regularly along with the entire barn (the barn owner did it for everybody so it got done). Otherwise here at home I keep up with the same worming schedule, there are horses next door but not within touching distance and my property used to have pigs on it (over 3 years ago) but never horses. I pick the pasture daily. I have a feeling I better go read your articles on parasite control!!
Other then this information I would only add that it seems like he cowpies during the day only (don't know if that has anything to do with anything or not) and literally he will cowpie one and the next will be normal and then he's normal until the next day. When it starts again, you can watch the manure get softer and softer until finally it's back to cowpie. He usually does 2-6 day; sometimes small and frequent, sometimes not. His mom had a few cowpies here but that may have just been from her being excited. The granddam has been normal. You can see how much time I have on my hands to analyze every single poo in my pasture (and who's it is)!!
Are you thinking parasites? I can certainly have my vet run a fecal test; I'm leery because I've read that most come back negative and you still don't have a clear answer. My vet also had mentioned that sometimes it takes these little guys awhile to adjust to a new diet...I could buy that, but it's been almost 2 months!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 13, 2005 - 11:48 am:
Fecals can be misleading if you do not know the life cycle of the parasites well. The article on Overview of Deworming explains how to interpret them. The history of possible high exposure is important.
Why not do 3 treatments of ivermectin 2 weeks apart overdosing by a couple of hundred lbs after the first one. The ivermectin is very safe and we know all dewormers are not as effective in foals. Remember though without a firm diagnosis you should continue further evaluation of management.
DrO
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New Member:
Twhgait
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 13, 2005 - 7:26 pm:
Thanks DrO! I'll be sure to post an update. His dam leaves tomorrow so that will be one major hurdle to get thru this week (for both of us!). Once we survive THAT, I'll be ready to proceed. I'll read thru the deworming articles in the meantime.
Today was another "good" day but I guess between the sand clear and the ulcerguard (I erroneously said gastroguard in my earlier posts, sorry) and the 40 degree temps (my husband's guess on the diarrhea is that it was the unseasonably warm weather), it's anybodies guess. Wish us luck and again thank you for your time and this wonderful board!!!
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Member:
Twhgait
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 29, 2005 - 7:01 pm:
Just an update on Legs........his dam left us on 11/14 and guess what? Not a single cow-pie since. My vet thinks it may have been her milk the whole time. DrO, He is due for his next worming and I'm wondering if I should proceed with the Ivermectin plan? He's off the sandclear starting tomorrow and will remain on Probiotics until at least Friday, when he sees my vet again for Fall shots.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 30, 2005 - 7:53 am:
Was he a heavy nurser and she a big producer Kim? The decision to proceed with the plan should be based on whether you thought he may be at risk for a heavy worm burden otherwise just start deworming him normally. For our recommendations on deworming and vaccinating foals see Care for Horses.
DrO
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Member:
Twhgait
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 3, 2005 - 10:35 pm:
Hi DrO, sorry for the delay-I had to work a few double shifts and time ran away from me. Yes, he was a heavy nurser, always had been. I am not sure how to tell if she was a good milker or not, sorry, but I suspect there was no problems there. She always had a nice big bag and he grew well.
He is still doing fine today. He's off everything except the Probiotics. My vet feels we shouldn't have any heavy worm issues, so for now I will worm normally and hopefully that will be the end of it!! It's nice to not run outside to check manure piles! Thanks again for all your help and patience!
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Member:
twhgait
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 9:00 pm:
I'm posting this here so Legs' history can be accessed. I lost Legs to a rupture yesterday. He was 21 months old.
I fed dinner Monday evening and Legs ate with his usual enthusiasm. I went out to make my last check at 10pm and as soon as I opened the door to the barn, I noticed stall boards on the ground. Legs was down. It took us several minutes to get him up. I didn't know what had happened. From the looks of the stall and his door, I thought maybe he had casted himself and then panicked. We walked him and he immediately urinated and had a small pile of diarrhea. I didn't think "colic", rather he was maybe traumatized from being stuck and taking 3 boards and his door down with him in the process. I couldn't find a manure pile in his stall, but he had churned everything up, so I couldn't be sure either way. I gave him a 1000lb dose of banamine, didn't give him any more hay (just in case), cleaned his stall and rebedded it and went to bed..I listened to him on the baby monitor.
He was quiet until about 5am, at which point I could hear him thrashing around again. I ran out to the barn, and he had casted himself again. NOW I realized what I was dealing with. Obviously something was wrong in his gut. The vet came out right away. Legs was tubed and given mineral oil-the stomach had some gas, but no residual and it smelled sweet. The rectal check showed manure, diarrhea and gas and the large colon felt fine. No temperature. He was given more banimine and he took blood to check for a possible enteritis. We offered him a handful of hay to get his reaction, and, while he wasn't thrilled, he nibbled it. I put him back in his stall to let him wake up. I went in to clean up and was gone maybe 10 minutes. When I came back, he was casted again. By this point, he's getting cuts and scrapes on his legs and face, so I opted to put him out in his paddock where he had more space.
He stabilized for the next few hours. He did lay down, but little rolling. He seemed to be spasming. We did short frequent walks and he passed small apples each time. I noticed the apples had some strings of mucus around them and reported that to my vet at my 10:30 update. The vet felt it was starting to sound more like an impaction. We were to continue the walks, let him rest if he was quiet and call if he got worse. The vet planned to come by for IV fluids. By noon, he started going south very quickly. His breathing got faster, his going down and rolling got worse. I went out to walk him but it was getting dangerous for me. He was started to just throw himself down. He almost walked right thru a fence and he did walk into a tree. He was searching out fencelines to lay against, and injuring himself more. The vet came back asap. He did another rectal and now he could feel dilated loops of small bowel. He was shivering, wet from the snow and very distressed. His heart rate was climbing to 60. His gut sounds were lessening. My vet put out the emergency call for the labs, but they still weren't ready. Meanwhile he got another emergency call close by and told me he really wanted to see the labs first, but felt euthanasia was probably our only option at this point. Legs was comfortable again from the sedation, so I opted to leave him in the barn and stay with him and the family (and his mares) came in to say goodbye to him. The vet was gone maybe an hour. As he woke back up, the rolling started again. Legs was more down then up. He was pawing and rolling. By now his heart rate was 80 and he had no gut sounds. His gums were pinker, but turning blue. People have often told me I'll see "a look" in a horse's eyes when it was time and I do believe I saw it in Legs in that hour. He didn't seem to be there anymore. He was just a bundle of pain. We walked him to the "spot" and waited for him to go down again. Once he was down, they administered the medicine. The look of relaxation was evident in his face. The vet slowly lowered his head to the ground and he was gone.
I asked for a necropsy, but on the farm that would have been difficult at best (we have small children and several pets here). The vet tapped his abdoman after he had passed away and he did have stool in his abdominal fluid. So, it was obvious he had ruptured. He called me this morning and the blood work showed some mild dehydration and a slight dip in his lymphocytes, but otherwise, normal.
On February 6th Legs had had a mild colic that was responsive to banamine. He also had a small pile of diarrhea with that. He had been fine in between then and yesterday.
I'm wondering if his colic earlier this month was maybe the beginning of this. I'm also wondering if the surgery for the hernia may have caused some scar tissue. The repair was apparently very extensive as scar tissue had formed all around it. I was never told if small bowel was involved, but now I wonder. My vet feels the rupture may have happened as early as 10pm on Monday and does agree there may have been some adhesions around the small bowel. Thinking back...I believe he was fine for dinner and ate everything (and drank water) and that's when the food hit the obstruction or twist causing the pain that was severe enough to make him tear boards off his stall.
I don't know if you will have any additional ideas to offer. I'm searching for answers I'll never get, but it helps me to heal and maybe understand. He was so young and so full of promise. I've never seen suffering like that. RIP Legs.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 9:49 pm:
Aw, Kim . . . so VERY sorry to hear of your little Legs's passing. How very awful for you. I think you must have stayed very strong through the ordeal. Be good to yourself, now.
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Member:
eoeo
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 10:22 pm:
Kim, so sorry. Have been there and it just tears a person up. Keep the faith.
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Member:
judyhens
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 10:34 pm:
Kim, my thoughts and prayers are with you.
Judy
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 11:55 pm:
Oh, Kim, I'm so sorry. It's difficult enough to loose an older horse, but to loose one so young and full of promise...I doubt there was much more you could have done than you did. It is just too impossible to always know what is happening inside them and to always be there at the right time. Don't blame yourself; you took excellent care of him during his life.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 7:37 am:
Kim,
I'm so sorry to hear of your loss. How very sad to lose such a young horse. Take comfort in knowing you gave him the best of care.
Fran
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Member:
twhgait
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 8:13 am:
Thank you everybody. Thank you for listening and letting me go thru this. This has been quite an ordeal to get thru. Some of you know about my 26 y.o., Legs' Grandma, who has been the one I've been fretting on for the last 8 months. I never in a million years thought we'd be euthanizing Legs before her. I'm trying not to blame myself or think I should have done something different. My vet said even if I'd have recognized it as a colic on Monday night, it wouldn't have changed the course of his treatment. I just wish I'd have spend more time assessing him instead of just assuming he was cast and just shook up. I'd of had more time to made decisions. I don't know.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 8:46 am:
So sorry, Kim. Sounds like you went through a terrible ordeal. Don't beat yourself up with "what if". It sounds like you did as much as you reasonably could. If the scar tissue was so extensive, there may not have been a solution after all.
You took the best of care of little Legs. What a tragic loss for you. Take care.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 10:00 am:
My condolences Kim.
The clinical signs of slowly increasing pain ending in rupture of the bowel suggest a partial twist which blocked the bowel and became impacted and is supported by the mucous stained stools. I agree this could be related to adhesions from the earlier abdominal surgery but a definitive diagnosis would require necropsy. Based on the blood work I disagree with your vet's assessment of the time of rupture. With bowel rupture the blood work would almost instantly have had remarkable changes indicating sepsis.
DrO
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 10:15 am:
So very sorry to hear this Kim. Thinking of you.
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Member:
jd1947
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 12:30 pm:
Kim,
Just read thru these posts and I want to send my sympathy to you. I can well imagine how hard this has been for you, but don't blame yourself...we always start second guessing ourselves, but you did all you could for Legs and it's obvious how much you loved him.
I am so sorry, Kim.
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Member:
mcbizz
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 12:48 pm:
Kim, my sincere condolences. I know you were so excited about Legs and had such hope for good times ahead. Not to mention the winter you're having there...(we have "chatted" before...I have been in Dousman, have a sister in Waukesha). You did all you could.
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Member:
liliana
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 2:22 pm:
My deepest sympathy Kim
Having to euthanase friend to me is one of the hardest things to do, please go easy on your self; it is very hard but think that he is free in horse heaven now.
Liliana
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Member:
twhgait
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 6:52 pm:
I really appreciate you all being here and being a support for me. Honestly, it means so much! I'm so thankful I have you all to come to with this. My husband has been awesome, but I think he's in his own version of grief.
DrO, thank you for explaining it for me. My vet was talking alot during that day, but unfortunately, I only remember what I saw, not what people were saying. Stress, I guess. I don't even remember when he told me when he thought he may have ruptured..it may have been before the lab tests came back.
This gives me some closure, at least as to what may have happened. Surgery was never an option, so I know my vet treated him with that in mind. He's also going to call Legs' surgeon to update him on this. I think that doctor should know what happened, so if he sees something like this again, maybe he can do something different? Maybe not, but I'm sure he'll want to know regardless.
I've unfortunately seen lots of death in my years as a nurse. I've never watched a horse get put down and I had been very fearful of it (for Maude) and wasn't sure how I would handle it, or if I'd even want to be there. I know now that all my fears were for nothing. It was the most peaceful thing I've ever seen. My vet was very thoughtful in how he handled everything and I so appreciate that. I know in my heart that Legs could FINALLY rest and be at peace. I loved him and he will be missed.
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Member:
twhgait
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 8:13 pm:
I just wanted to leave this with pictures I'd taken of Legs last weekend (Feb 25th, 2 days before he colicked). We had a huge snowstorm and I wanted to get pictures of him and his mom playing. He's the one with the bridle on. He LOVED snow!
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/TWHGAIT/PDR_0093.jpg
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/TWHGAIT/PDR_0100.jpg
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/TWHGAIT/PDR_0104.jpg
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/TWHGAIT/PDR_0105.jpg
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 11:01 pm:
Cute! I'm glad you were able to get the pictures and have good memories of him.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 7:40 am:
Lovely memories to have - he looks so happy. You obviously gave him a wonderful life.
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 11:17 am:
Lovely pictures. So sorry for your loss. Life is so unpredictable. Colic is a horrible thing. We have lost a few to the same thing. You always go back to think what you could have done differently but its a fact that nothing would have changed the outcome. He was a cutie thats for sure.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 4:03 pm:
So sorry you lost your colt, Kim. Wonderful pictures. You did all you could ...
Lilo
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Member:
liliana
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 3, 2007 - 10:43 am:
May he live for ever in your heart Kim!
My prayers are with you!
Liliana
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 1:59 pm:
Kim,
My deepest sympathy to you on the loss of Legs. Loosing our beloved companions is so hard, and I think we all second guess ourselves when things like this happen. But in all honesty, we do all that we can to provide the best care for our horses, but sometimes, unfortunate things like this happen. Don't beat yourself up over it. You gave Legs all the love and care you could have, and did everything you could to save him.
He was lucky to have you in his life.
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