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Discussion on Colic vs Enterolith
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Member:
Joann
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Posted on Monday, Nov 14, 2005 - 6:05 pm:
Hi, I've read the topics above and I guess I am looking for an answer that will prevent the final straw for my 24 y.o Arabian gelding. He has for five weeks now been colicky and yesterday I gave the 3rd strike rule here. The on call vet came out did a tubing of mineral oil, electrolytes, water; a rectal; and took blood. This was a bit more then the last vet visit. I have a small supply of Banamine which I give when he starts to look in pain. We think its a stone and he is not a candidate for surgery. I've been reading the post on euthanasia and I think I will want to be there for him. It's my husband's horse. My question is I had grass hay available and the vet said give him alfalfa. Confused now. I think we can only pray he will get better. He goes up and down and has rolled a few times but nothing violent. His vitals were perfect. On a scale of 1-10 for pain he's a 4. I'm letting him go with the others since they are all bonded. Do I let the others "see and smell" him if I put him down?
I don't think there's any chance he will get better but praying.
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Member:
Angel77
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Posted on Monday, Nov 14, 2005 - 9:02 pm:
Dear Joann,
Personally I am not sure if I would allow the other horses to smell him after he is gone. Many horses take it very badly when a friend dies right in front of them. It can be too stressful for them.
Think of how you are going to feel. Maybe, if you can spare his friends the heartbreak that may make you feel better in the long run. I don't know.
It is obviously your decision. I hope you have longer than you think with your horse. We love our animals.
Good Luck,
WTG
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Member:
Brandi
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Posted on Monday, Nov 14, 2005 - 10:01 pm:
Joann, my gut reaction is yes, let them see and smell, but I never even considered WTG's thought that it might be stressful. I think you have to gauge that yourself based on your animals. I know my older gelding would need to see his "herd boss" and friend of 16 years in order to "let go" without undue separation anxiety. He would be very upset if Moon were to just leave, never to be seen again, but I trust that he would understand if he saw him having already passed (I would only expose them "after the fact" never during). However, after listening to WTG, I might consider that my younger, more emotional gelding, who is not necessarily as attached to this one horse, might be more upset by death than by separation.
I've always considered the strong bonds when it comes to putting an animal down, and even paid my large animal vet to make a ranch call for my dog, because my dog had a cat who lived with him, in his house, slept on top of him at night, and I just couldn't bear the thought of taking the dog away and having "his" cat wonder when he might return. My decision was exactly right in that situation. I can only hope that future decisions are close enough. Thanks to WTG, I have a better chance.
Good luck Joann, I'm sorry that you're having to consider making this decision, but your gelding knows you will make the right decision for him.
Brandi
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Member:
Joann
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Posted on Monday, Nov 14, 2005 - 11:36 pm:
Thank you for your mail, not sure what we will do and will just put off as long as he is out of pain. I'm giving him Banamine but only small amounts to get him through the day and night. He eats after the medicine takes hold. I'm still hopeful that he will bounce back. We have a 20+yo donkey who is his best friend (they came to me together) and I have a mare who has not left his side when out in the pasture. Thanks for all the response.
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Member:
Angel77
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Posted on Monday, Nov 14, 2005 - 11:43 pm:
To All,
The idea is for you and the heard spend as much time together until that horse has to walk into the sunset and into heaven never to return again. The others know it is happening believe me. I'd bet they knew he was sick before you did.
If you have a situation where there needs to be a companion it is always good to hunt for one before the horse has to be put down. So that the other horse won't be so anxietious.
Personally I have lived through my 61y/o stepfather, my 23y/o cat, my 18y/o cat, 14y/o cat, 15y/o 100lb dog, 17y/o 60lb dog, and my 30y/o TB horse, as well as numerous friends' animals. I was there for every passing which was life altering. Special in an indescribable way. It was a wonderful few moments that bonded me to each soul individually in an ethereal and eternal way.
The only animal I was not there for was my 14y/o cat(she died before I could get there). It still haunts me today. I feel guilty for not being able to be there. However, I take comfort in the fact that my mother who lives 5 min from the vet was able to be there for her.
When I am gone I know I will be welcomed to the Kingdom of heaven by all of my animals as well as all of the people who's lives I have touched and or saved.
One example of me saving a life would be our 82 y/o neighbor of 40 yrs who nearly DrOwned in his hot tub. All I could hear was a funny gurgling sound. He weighs 230lbs but I was able to pull him out, give him the Heimlich maneuver, clear his airway, get him onto one of the lounge chairs, keep him awake-lucid, and keep him on his side. So by the time the paramedics arrived they were clearly impressed that I could accomplish all of this in my soaking wet robe as it was 10:45pm. My neighbor spent three weeks in the hospital. The Doctor said if it wasn't for me he wouldn't be here. After his recovery, he and his wife were able to go to Europe for 2 months. They went to New York for several weeks. They got to travel a lot together. It has been almost three years and he is still going. 
I can't even mention how many times I have saved my grandfather's life.
Life has its ups and downs. Sometimes going with the flow of spiritual energy instead of fighting the inevitable will help one to grow knowledge and courage that comes from within. Something many people do not realize they possess until their power is tested. I am sooo not religious. Not that there is anything wrong with religion.
I am so so sorry you are faced with this decision. My heart breaks for you. Your horse will let you know when it is time so watch for the signs carefully. He will let you know. Let us hope you have more time with him than you think.
Good luck!!
WTG
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 15, 2005 - 12:12 am:
Joann,
don't give up so quickly. Just last spring i went thru a 10 day bout of colic. With my 23 year old mare. i posted here the daily antics...Vet came out no less than 5 times, treating each time. She didn't actually look better for a month. and i just micromanaged the heck out of the situation. Even Dr. O gave me a chiding about checking the manure piles daily. water intake daily. urine color daily. It was exhausting and heartbreaking. You do what needs to be done for your kids, right?
My vet was pretty sure it wasn't an enterolith. And they really don't know for sure until they ultrasound or go in. So i am curious what makes your vet think he has one. I would just keep doing what you are doing. He is older and might just need more time than a younger horse.
He will let you know when he can't take it anymore. Watch the other horses are they treating him different?
As for the grass hay and alfalfa. some grass hays are much finer, horses don't chew it up as good, hoovers it down, and it becomes a tangled mess in their gut. While alfalfa is stemmier, and maybe forces them to chew it better, digests it better and helps move it thru the gut... but this is only my take on it. I did read in this months Horse magazine, about the finer stemmed hays like coastal and why they think it causes more colic than other hays. make some bran mashes, with oil and pedialyte, check the old posts for other ideas. he might just pull thru this. And its just a wake up call for you to start him on geriatric feedings.
good luck
joj
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Member:
Angel77
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 15, 2005 - 12:38 am:
Dear Joann,
I agree with joj of course keep doing whatever you feel is helping your horse. He may surprise you.
I also agree with the alfalfa. The older horses seem to prefer it on our ranch.
Keep you spirits up and who knows what can happen?
Good Luck!
WTG
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Member:
Frances
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 15, 2005 - 7:29 am:
Hi Joanne,
I, too, feel it is surprising that your vet preferred you to give alfalfa rather than grass hay, since alfalfa has been implicated in the formation of enteroliths in horses in many studies. Let's see what DrO thinks.
Meanwhile, I wish you and your horse all the best, and truly hope things improve.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 15, 2005 - 8:37 am:
Hello joann,
Your post really leads to more questions:- Why is it thought that the horse has a enterolith?
- Why has the veterinarian recommended a change to alfalfa?
Concerning the question about the other horses and euthanasia of this one, they really do not understand what is happening and my own experience with hundreds of such scenarios suggest they will not react one way or the other about the actual death. Yes a single horse that is tightly bonded will behave as though his buddy is gone, just as if it had been ridden off the farm, but there is no mourning or sadness among the horses. This is left up to the humans who are aware of the loss. That said I agree with all the voices above that say, why would you put down a horse with normal vitals? It suggests the pain is not remarkable and if you need to lay in a 250 ml bottle of Banamine while you carefully go through the various treatable causes of chronic colic. If no one has palpated a enterolith, what about recurrent food impaction and treatment for that? Have you given him several dewormings with ivermectin and praziquantel?
DrO
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 15, 2005 - 9:44 am:
... as always, DrO is the voice of reason. Thank goodness we have him here to keep us from going off the deep end ... I
I have to agree with DrO. In fact, to let other horses smell and see the dead horse, unless in a very controlled situation might surprise you. The other horse(s) will probably paw at the body, which I think is nature's way of keeping a herd horse moving when it wants to lay down with colic! This can become quite aggressive, and really of no benefit for either the remaining horse(s) or YOU. Horses are herd animals and are,of course quite bonded to each other, but do not usually mourn (in the human way). I know many of our horses are bonded in a very spiritual way to us, and we, to them, and sometimes to each other,of course, but, I think we should be careful not to attribute "non-horsey" behavior to our horses. I love these animals too, but, I love horses for what they are... horses ...not people!
At any rate, I'm still wishing the best for you and your gelding, so that, hopefully, you do not have to address the euthansia question at all! And, I'll be interested in why the vet suggested the Alfalfa hay. If an enterolith is not present, then,I think the Alfalfa hay is an excellent source of nutrition for an older horse, and also is great at keeping that gut moving(vs the grass hay)!
Nancy
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 15, 2005 - 10:41 am:
Several of the Vets I know of here in central Florida recommend alfalfa hay as horses grow older and tend to have more colic episodes. Some will recommend it during the period of the colic and some as a permanent diet. The thought is that as some of these individual horses age their systems can no longer handle the coastal grass hay well. With the aged horses they seem to worry less about enterolith formation, figuring they are already there or not, I guess, and even if they are that the alfalfa will push through better than the grass hay. If your horse is not accustomed to frequent bran mashes, etc., I (as a reformed once-weekly bran mash maker) would NOT do that as I personally believe it could do more harm than good.
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Member:
Joann
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 15, 2005 - 7:12 pm:
Hi all and thank you for your concern and prayers. Legacy is still with us and today is up and has been all day and doesn't appear in pain. Hope it holds up. Okay to answer Dr. O. All animals wormed over a week ago with Ivermectin paste. I hedged doing Legacy because of his illness but went forward thinking about parasites as a cause. My regular vet came out 5 weeks ago and did a tubing, banamine shot and left me with banamine paste thinking it was sand colic. He had numerous calls as during Santa Anas here the colics pop up. We monitored daily and he was sluggish and not playing around. He normally does with his donkey buddy. But he was not feeling well. His manure was loose more like cow patties.
I found him down last week and walked him etc. and took all his vitals. Gave him Banamine paste I had and called vet. That's when we talked about the big E thing and he lined me up with telephone numbers etc. Next a.m. he was under an oak tree and covered with dry leaves. He must have been rolling at night. I walked him about the property and called the emergency vet this guy that's all he does is weekend stuff. I gave him more Banamine and he started to feel better and wanted to eat. I gave him alfalfa and his senior grain (dampened)with a shot of psyllium. He made it thru the night as I monitored all night and he was lying down which is normal for him. How he has the strength now to get up and down I don't know. But the next day it was more of the same so we called vet to give him another chance. Rectal, Tubed, blood, all perfect vitals, some gut sounds but this vet said he didn't figure sand colic (he took samples of a better formed stool) but thought it a stone. He saw I had some grass hay and he told me not to give it to him but give the Alfalfa and chunk it up. He gave a Banamine shot and left me with two tubes. We saw him drink (he's isolated in the a.m) and he went down a few times not rolling just lying out. He did stretch out and that's the first I saw this (the vet asked about that)so not sure what that means. Okay, think you know what I know. I don't want to overfeed him. I give a bi monthly mash of Quaker oats, corn oil, warm water, flax seed, applesauce or natural brown sugar but stopped this and use the wheat bran in the a.m. on top of alfalfa for all and in the p.m. add the psyllium to grains and place on top of alfalfa. They pull the hay out of containers so stopped fighting that. Any help please keep me on track. Thanks have to go to work tomorrow but will check. p.s. my husband had knee surgery the same day Legacy got really sick so don't think he's a flake - he loves this horse. jo
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 16, 2005 - 10:07 am:
Hi, Joann You said your horse was under an oak tree is he maybe eating acorns? I'm not 100% certain but I believe they could cause his symptoms. Dr.O.? I had a horse colicing also and it turned out to be leaves off a certain tree he was eating. We fenced off that pasture and he was cured. Good Luck
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 16, 2005 - 2:43 pm:
Hey Joann
I was just noticing the same thing Dianne noticed ... some Oak trees have very toxic acorns, and, if not the tanin in the acorns(mainly the green ones in the Spring, I've read), the acorns could cause an impaction colic, too! I, too, have Oak trees in all of my pastures, and just hope they do not eat enough acorns to make them sick. They are such large, beautiful shade trees that I hate to cut them down or fence around them,so, I, too am faced with the acorn problem, though none have gotten sick from acorn ingestion, so far! Just a thought for you and DrO to consider!
Nancy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 16, 2005 - 4:56 pm:
Basically you have an undiagnosed colic Joann. Enteroliths are possible and there are some historical components (see the article) that make it more likely and yes, looking at your profile, you do have them including feeding alfalfa. And yes, oak tree parts including acorns can cause an enteritis and be kidney toxic. Is there a history of exposure to sandy soil and what deworming products do you use when you deworm?
Since surgery is not being contemplated I would both change away from the alfalfa and remove access from the acorns and leaves. Yet there are still other possibilities, review the article Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Colic in Horses » An Overview of Colic and see if anything else could be thrown in or out of the likely lists. The article Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Colic in Horses » First Aid for Colic gives a pretty detailed method for dealing with an ongoing colic.
DrO
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Member:
Joann
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 16, 2005 - 9:41 pm:
Hi all: I had to work today but rushed home to find Legacy roaming around as usual, not moving too fast but he never has. Fed as usual and he ate. I told my husband to keep him contained but the other animals were banging on the gates etc. and so Chuck let all mix about our property. I said tomorrow he MUST keep Legacy confined to check p/p progress. I am so thankful at this time we gave him a chance as he seems to be okay. I knew the oak tree thing would come up - they have been on the same property for five years and haven't been interested in the trees. I only mentioned that he was lying down by one and full of leaves on his coat. Sure he could have ingested something, but they have all been easy keepers. I come from a ranching family, our horses are "out" and I have corrals, shade, lots of room, and they have the run of the place going about their business. Legacy rules. I do not baby them, they come when whistled and behave properly (he does) but not riding him now because I have the mare which I love. So far no banamine today tune in. Joann
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Member:
Joann
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Posted on Friday, Nov 18, 2005 - 10:09 am:
Dr. O: I'm posting here but not sure if this is correct since I've been in the colic topic. Legacy has diarrhea that comes and goes. I am taking him off of Alfalfa even tho it was against the 2nd vets advice. His stool is loose, black, and smelly. This was last night. He eats his grain, etc. but is very larthargic which we understand. As far as the acorn issue, we are doing our best to clean it up but they don't typically eat this stuff (theyve all been on the same property same conditions for 5 years. Appreciate telling me more if there is any. Thanks.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 19, 2005 - 10:16 am:
Joann, you have diarrhea that is characteristic with oak poisoning (bleeding) and I am concerned about his kidneys. If I am correct you should call and get your veterinarian out right now with a plan to put him on intensive large volume fluid therapy.
DrO
PS I tried to reach you by phone Sat morning for a heads up on this but your phone number with us is no longer current. Please let me know when you get this message I will worry until you do.
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Member:
Joann
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 23, 2005 - 4:45 pm:
Hi, sorry I've been working alot and had company. Legacy is doing much better and the vet was out doing the tubing. After that he was doing better, eating and his stool is looking better. We've cleaned up as much as we could around the trees. They all congregate under the oaks when its hot, or someone goes by, or just because they like that end of the property. If we have to rope it off (electrical will be the only way) for me to get this done. I appreciate your concern and will stay ontop of this. Thank you - guess I'll call the vet this weekend and tell him what you suspect. I did add some cool aid to his water and we measured it out to make sure he was drinking - he is. Joann
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Nov 25, 2005 - 7:04 am:
Glad to hear you got the message and the horse is doing better. The black stools represent digested blood and called "melena". This is characteristic of oak poisoning and the history of access to a large amount of acorns makes this very likely, for more see the article on oak poisoning at Equine Diseases » Poisons , Venoms & Poisonous Plants » Poisons, Poisonous Plants, and Venemous Animals.
DrO
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Member:
Joann
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Posted on Friday, Nov 25, 2005 - 2:33 pm:
Hi Doc and thanks for the concern but we are back to a horse who is not feeling well, lying down alot but not rolling, just lying quietly. I have him alone and checking intake of fluids and quite frankly I don't think he is doing much. His stool is minimal and he has urinated I think. Last night I gave him 1000cc Banamine Paste and that helps but right now he is lying quietly. Ate very little grain, wanted some Alfalfa which I chopped up and soaked. He is not interested in much. We did vitals last night and gums are light pink and respond to testing. His temp was 101.3 and I took it 3 different times. Before the Banamine, 3 hrs later, and at midnight. Once the drug takes hold him seems better. I called the vet and told him about your observation. He still believes it to be a stone as the blood work was reviewed by both vets and absolutely no liver or kidney problems were present. He knows our area and does not think it is oak related. I've cleaned up as much as I can. My vet and I think we will be facing a bigger decision here or should I have him xrayed. I can't keep this up financially or for Legacy's sake. This is tough and vet tells me that it will continue. How much Banamine can a horse tolerate over the long haul? Sorry, I read the related topic on poisoning and it would be extremely possible, and we've done the tubing etc, and he's still not coming around.
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Member:
Joann
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Posted on Friday, Nov 25, 2005 - 7:58 pm:
Hi, thought I would get this in quick. Legacy is walking about, not eating his grain tonight but wants his Alfalfa. With all the problems I read about stones and alfa...should we switch to a pelleted grass? He is also drinking well and I've held back on the Banamine. Any help is always appreciated and thank all for being on line.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 26, 2005 - 8:51 am:
If stones are thought to be on the rule out list, yes alfalfa would be contraindicated. I would not use pellets however I would use cubes to provide adequate roughage. If the horse is not doing as well I would have the kidneys checked quickly, just to be sure.
DrO
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Member:
Joann
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 27, 2005 - 12:11 pm:
Dr. O and all:
Thank you for the support given over the weeks of illness with Legacy. My husband and I made the big decision yesterday and the vet who has been caring for him administered the drugs professionally while supporting our emotional concerns. I see other support for a loss and know that others will be sharing that loss with me. It was very hard on us and his pasturemates too experienced and displayed emotions I've never seen. No more pain. joann
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 27, 2005 - 12:59 pm:
Joann, I'm sorry to hear about Legacy's passing. I know you loved him. Only you and your husband, who saw Legacy every day, know how much pain he was in, and you have made the best decision you could based on what you knew. There is a lot to weigh when making such a decision, and a lot depends on the age of the horse. It is difficult to put an older horse through a lot of tests, surgery, etc. when you can't be sure of the outcome. Often the horse's problem will be solved, but he might still not survive the surgery, when a young horse would recover easily. I respect your decision and know only too well how difficult this has been on you as I too have had to make such decisions and will have to again sometime in the future.
Legacy, as you said, is out of pain. I personally believe in horses in heaven and think Legacy is now romping around with some wonderful horses, included several that were mine. Best wishes to you.
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Member:
Corinne
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 27, 2005 - 6:03 pm:
JoAnn,
So sorry to hear about your loss...I am saddened for you. I can't imagine all you have gone through not knowing what was causing your gelding's pain.
As you said in the end of your post...No more pain...his life was a gift to you and in the end you gave him the gift of peace, the gift of no more pain.
Take care and God Bless and like I told Marcia about Truman, I am online doing school work a good part of each day, please feel free to email me if you need any support. My email address is LtSassy1@aol.com.
God Bless,
Corinne
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 27, 2005 - 6:34 pm:
It's a sad time for you, Joann, yet it is a relief to know that your Legacy is no longer suffering. May the memories you have of him be like balm to your souls as you go through the difficult times of missing Legacy's physical presence . . . and may another wonderful horse who needs your love and care find his way to you in the not-so-distant future.
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 27, 2005 - 10:49 pm:
Dear Joann,
My deepest sympathy. Words won't help but know we are all here for you, understand your loss, support and respect your decision, which put your beloved horse in a happier place. Peace and love to you,
Shirl
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Nov 28, 2005 - 6:43 am:
My condolences joann.
DrO
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Monday, Nov 28, 2005 - 8:26 am:
Joann,
So sorry to hear of your loss. You did everything you could for Legacy. Find peace in knowing he is no longer in pain.
Fran
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Nov 28, 2005 - 11:21 am:
Sending cyber (((Hugs))) to you Joann.
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Member:
9193
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Posted on Monday, Nov 28, 2005 - 6:07 pm:
Dear Joann,
My deepest condolences to you on the loss of your beloved Legacy. (I love the name.)May the good memories of him help ease the sadness and grief you feel today.
Hugs,
Debra
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Member:
Frances
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 29, 2005 - 8:25 am:
Joann, you're so right: no more pain. That's the thought to hold on to. You did what was best for him at all times, right up to the end.
Warmest wishes
Lynn
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Member:
Dyduroc
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 29, 2005 - 11:36 am:
Dear Joann, Heartfelt condolences to you and your husband on Legacy's passing. Wishing you the best during this very sad time.
D.
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New Member:
fordy15
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Posted on Friday, Feb 13, 2009 - 1:53 am:
joann
I mean no disrespect but I have a horse here who seems to be suffering the same thing quite possibly. Did you do an autopsy on him and if so did it show stones, I am doing everthing I can for my boy but heis only 7 and apart from exploratory surgery which I will not consider because I don't personally think he has a stone, there is nothing else I can do. IF you did conduct an autopsy could you please let me know findings as it may help Fordy. I wouldbe so appre3ciative. U can contact me on a.findlater@bigpond.com, if you would...
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Member:
littleon
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Posted on Friday, Feb 13, 2009 - 8:00 am:
Amanda.
I know DrO and the other posters will help you Also hang in there.
What about a ulcer? could it be this.
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Friday, Feb 13, 2009 - 11:34 am:
Amanda,
Sometimes stones can appear on radiographs. I think there are other options before exploratory surgery. I had a horse that had a stone removed surgically. It showed on a radiograph which is what prompted surgery.
Good luck
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