This is an archived Horseadvice.com Discussion. The parent article and menus are available on the navigation menu below:
HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Colic, Diarrhea, GI Tract » Colic in Horses » Discussions on Colic in Horses not covered by the above »
  Discussion on Question of colitis
Author Message
Member:
Ccet

Posted on Thursday, Nov 6, 2003 - 12:39 am:

On Monday morning I went out into the pasture and found one of my horses lying dead. Later that day there was another horses looking restless I took him to the vet for a check up and they ran a bunch of tests coming up with nothing. They were going to send him home with me but I insisted that he stay there - considering the days events I wanted to be on the safe side. A couple hours later I got the dreaded phone call. Before I got to the clinic they decided to put him down. He went into muscle tremors and was sweating buckets - the clinic floor was soaked. I had lost 2 horses in the same day. The only thing that had changed was the pasture - I rotated pastures on Wednesday - I put my three horses in with 4 othere and 2 of my three died. The other horses already in the pasture before I added mine have been in that pasture for a good couple of weeks - and there was no problem. We did an autopsey and nothing - we send blood work out and nothing. Now we are waiting for results from the tissue samples. The three vets working on the second horse I put down are baffled. There is something very mysterious happening in that pasture. Could it be colitis X. Do we need samples of the intestines to rule that out? Do you have any ideas? I miss my friends and I need to know what happened! I don't understand why the 4 already out there are fine! I'm am devastated and I don't feel the vets are in the right direction.

Maria
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Nov 6, 2003 - 8:55 am:

My condolences Maria, nothing is harder than the unexpected loss of loved ones and this is a shocker. Important information needed to accurately create a list of possiblities is to know what the physical findings, particularly the vital signs, were in those last few hours of the horse in the hospital. Do you have a complete report?
DrO
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Thursday, Nov 6, 2003 - 10:21 am:

Maria-I am so sorry for your loss. The only thing worse that losing a horse is not knowing why and therefore worrying about the rest of your horses. I will be following this discussion closely. I have been concerned about our horses because due to the extremely dry conditions we haven't been able to water as much as normally and also had a lot of wind last summer so have strange and different things in our fields. I hope you are able to find out the exact cause of death.
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Thursday, Nov 6, 2003 - 7:12 pm:

I am so sorry for your loss. Its frustrating not know how or why. I hope you find your answers soon.
Katrina
Member:
Westks

Posted on Friday, Nov 7, 2003 - 7:20 am:

When I lost my beloved Gelding earlier this year I was devastated , I can't imagine losing 2 at once. My prayers are with you for the healing that will come. I pray that a reason can be found so you aren't left with no answers.
Member:
Lilo

Posted on Saturday, Nov 8, 2003 - 9:54 am:

My condolences,
Lilo
Member:
Suzym

Posted on Saturday, Nov 8, 2003 - 11:26 am:

Oh, Maria ~ I am so sorry for your loss. I can't even imagine how devastated you must be. I just lost one last year and could hardly bear it.

I will be hoping and praying you find the answers you need to help you deal with this.

If you need help, please visit us at The Healing Rainbow at https://www.healingrainbow.com

Suzy
Member:
Ccet

Posted on Thursday, Nov 13, 2003 - 11:48 pm:

I would like to thank everyone that replyed. I appreciate all your long distance support. I am doing better and the tears have finally stopped. I am trying to be positive but I defintley have my momemets - right now I feel sooo sad but yet so angry.

QUESTION FOR THE DOCTOR
I have finally received some info from the biopsy reports. They took samples from the liver, kidney and heart. They found edema around the heart wall - they believe this is consistent with rumension poisoning. Just because there is fluid around the heart doesn't mean they can conclude this right? Can't there be many reasons why they might be fluid around this organ - perhaps shock, stress, and how about all the medications they gave him - might these be reasons that one would find this in the biopsy? What are some reasons that you would find this? I have not ruled out that this horse was over medicated could this happen if he was over medicated? If a horse was given to much sedative and pain killer what might be the signs? Perhaps he had a allergic reaction? I know there is more to this story.If it was rumenson poisoning wouldn't we be able to find that in a blood test or some kind of toxin test or what about the organs couldn't you tell from testing or acessing the kidney or liver? My entire heart and soul is telling me there is a whole piece of the puzzle that is being overlooked. Is there a way to confirm forsure forsure it was rumenson poisioning?? How much rumenson does a horse have to consume for it to be fatal? The chances are so slim that it is rumenson we ahve not fed cattle in that pasture since early spring - there is virtually not chance that this is what it is. Please help because I know wew are in the wrong direction. I realllllllly think he couldn't handle the amount of sedative (rhompin - given 2) and zorp (given 1) The moment those drugs went into that horse I knew it was too much - he could barley stand up. the situation went from us taking him in the vet saying very very mild colic posibly (tests all negative)The even said i could take him home and pick him up in 12 hours and less then 2 hours later he went straight down hill and we put him down then. we had three different vets working on him and noone knew. The orinal vet woring on him even said he couldn't believe it was the same horse and that was only 1.5 - 2 hours after he tryed to send him home with me. There is more to this I know it?

Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Nov 14, 2003 - 10:41 am:

Since Rompun and Torbugesic are heavy sedatives it is normal for them to appear incoordinated when given and not a sign of overdosage. It is important to understand that your horse may have had mild signs of colic as a much more serious disease process was at work.

IF you will post the whole necropsy report I will be glad to comment on it's conclusions, but you can read more about this specific toxicity and diagnosis at » Equine Diseases » Nervous System » Livestock Growth Promoters Poisoning. The most important question is, "why does anyone think the horse was exposed"?
DrO
Member:
Ccet

Posted on Monday, Nov 17, 2003 - 12:59 pm:

DrO,

The reason why rumensin is even a consideration is because we own a feedlot and our cattle are fed rumensin. However there have not been cattle in that pasture since early early last spring. When we feed the cattle rumensin it is mixed in with their silage (not fed pure by any means) We also feed it only in one spot and there was nothing left there. We have had horses on the pasture all year and every was fine. In the neuropsy they found "mild edema,heart". They also found quote "degeneration of the heart fibers that is quite extensive ...Also found a small focus of myocardial degeneration. Then it says that these changes would be consistent with recent exposure to monensin. Does consistent mean absolutley without a doubt this is conclusive? What about all the drugs they gave this horse can this cause the heart to have these findings?
When they describe this horses history they wrote"profuse sweating, hr increased, incordination."(no colic signs)The only thing the blood test showed is that muscle enzymes read at 900 and normal would be 200.
Do you have access to a fax machine? I have all the paper work on this horse from the beginning to end. Perhaps that will help you with feedback. I nor anyone involved in our operation thinks we have the right diagnosis!!! Perhaps we are wrong but I don't think so. They jumped at Rumensin because they weren't finding anything on any tests. Does this even make any sense - why our two when there has been horses out there all year?

Maria
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Nov 17, 2003 - 5:11 pm:

Oh Maria, I know this is hard. Consistent means, "this is what it looks like" and no it is not assurity. But the combination of
  • history of possible exposure even if to tiny amounts
  • the characteristic clinical signs
  • the very characteristic acute myocardial degeneration
  • and not finding any other causes

makes monensin very likely.

Monensin is so very toxic to horses that even putting horse feed in a bucket that previously contained runensin containing feed can cause toxicity. Because of this many feed companies no longer use Rumensin and instead use a very similar but much less toxic products. The whole farm needs a thorough going over with an eye as to where this might have come from so this is not repeated.

Concerning your worry about the drugs: one horse died with no attendance what so ever. None of the drugs you have mentioned cause myocardial degeneration like you describe as a primary pathology. They kill by depressing the CNS to the point that breathing and the heart stop.

You can fax me the information at 336-643-0833 and next time I am in the office I will see if I can put together a list of the most common causes of similar necropsy findings, but rumensin will be at the top of the list. Off the top of my head aflatoxin, a fungal toxin found in feeds comes to mind but there is also an associated severe enteritis that would not be overlooked on necropsy.
DrO
Member:
Ccet

Posted on Friday, Dec 12, 2003 - 2:25 pm:

DrO

Thank you so much for all your professional advice and support for my loss. I appreciate all your help. I will be faxing you a copy of all the results of the lab exams today.

Maria
P.S. One more thing that I wanted you to clear up for me "Would a biopsy of a part of the intestine been helpful in concluding rumensin?" - Also what other sorts of things would cause the heart fibers to degenerate like that?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Dec 14, 2003 - 8:37 am:

I don't think the intestinal biopsy would help Maria. I will get a complete list but the things that stick out in my mind would be Selenium, both deficiency and excess, and possibly vitamin E deficiency. You will find articles on all these in the nutrition section.
DrO
Member:
Ccet

Posted on Saturday, Dec 20, 2003 - 10:47 pm:

DrO.
Did you get the results I faxed you from the autopsey? I will read the articles you have suggested but I'm not quite following you - a deficiency can posion your body and cause such a suffering death?

Maria

Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Dec 21, 2003 - 9:49 am:

Yes selenium deficiency can cause serious problems and death. I am unsure if the fax has got here, I have not got through all the
this weeks mail and faxes yet, I will try to catch up tomorrow.
DrO
Member:
Eoeo

Posted on Sunday, Dec 21, 2003 - 11:38 am:

We live in the NW, in Washington State. Zilch selenium. We use feed with selenium in it plus supplement with Purina's 12:12 Mineral salt. This combination has worked wonders. Very seldom a sick horse of any kind. Our vets here said you can't overdose selenium per se in our part of the country. It helps all parts of the horse and the colts legs are great now. 20 years ago I didn't know how the deficiency of it affected all our horses but since I became educated about it, it is a number one item around our place. EO
Member:
Ccet

Posted on Friday, Jan 2, 2004 - 8:16 pm:

I will fax you the papers again. I did receive confirmation from my fax machine that it was sent successfully.

Maria
thanks again
Member:
Ccet

Posted on Friday, Mar 12, 2004 - 12:49 am:

This will be my 3rd or 4th posting asking you Dr if you received my autopsey results that I sent you months ago now. I am reallllly wanting to hear your thoughts. Please get back to me as soon as you can.

Maria
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Mar 15, 2004 - 10:37 am:

Hello Maria,
I have looked through my inbox and still do not see the papers Maria nor does the staff remember seeing these papers. Would you try again? I have asked they specifically look for them.
DrO
Member:
Ccet

Posted on Monday, Mar 22, 2004 - 12:04 pm:

I will send then again - thanks for yor reply.
Home Page | Top of Page | Join Us!
Horseadvice.com is a BBB Accredited Business. Click for the BBB Business Review of this Horse Training in Stokesdale NC