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Discussion on Learn from my lesson......
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Member:
Twhgait
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 20, 2005 - 7:36 pm:
I thought I would post this for all of us who might think "smoky" hay is something you can get away with feeding.......I'm starting to feel like everything bad that can happen is going to happen to me! In fact, I'm sure of it!
My old grandma mare and my young weanling gelding live here at home with me. I had been trying to contact my hay supplier for a few weeks and she wasn't returning my calls. I knew she was pregnant and thought maybe she had the baby or ???. Long story short, I needed hay and I needed it now (I barely had enough left of the old stuff to mix it to switch them over). I found a dealer close by who swore up and down he had excellent quality grass hay. I made it very clear to him that I had a baby and a senior horse and it needed to be at LEAST good quality hay. He assured me it was great hay and he would be more then happy to sell it to me for 75 cents more a bale then I usually pay  Well, as I mentioned.....I needed hay. There was nobody else selling, I called three other locals before him. We went out to look at it and buy it and in the dark barn, it looked great; loose and green. I didn't smell anything off. I also didn't bother to open a bale....dumb, dumb, dumb! We got it home and unloaded it into the barn in the sunlight......smoke everywhere!!! Simply snapping the twine on a bale caused a puff of smoke. I had no other hay...so I picked out the best bales (which weren't really even considered "good") I shook it out, I spread it all over the ground outside, I did everything I could think to do. While shaking it out, even I got a stuffy nose and sneezes! Honestly, that's never happened to me before and I've been sniffing bales for 4 years. 3 days later....I had horses with coughs. Another long story short....I got a hold of my usual hay supplier and got my regular hay. I called the horse dealer and told him we were bringing his hay back.....he wasn't happy..swore up and down that he sold 25,000 bales of hay this year and I was the only complaint (yeah, right!). I'm just happy I got my money back. Switched the horses back over (more quickly because I wasn't about to give them another strand of that moldy hay). Now the weanling has diarrhea again. Both are still coughing 4 days after being on the good hay. Both of them are behaving like typical allergic coughers. I'm down to soaking the good hay (I read that doesn't really do much!) in hopes that I can soak any possible smoke out of IT and my vet said give it a few days to stop, soak the hay for a week; if it doesn't, he'll be coming out. Where's my checkbook?!? The funniest part (not really, but if you need to find humor in it...this is where it is) is when I told my vet who I bought the bad hay from he said "Oh, HIM!" And a swear word or two. Apparently this guy with the fabulous hay is nothing more then a notorious horse dealer who's horses are all underweight and ill-tempered. Wonder why? My vet said he won't even go to this guys farm any more to vet out horses....he just tells his clients not to buy a horse from this guy. He wasn't surprised about the quality of the hay at all!
Did I mention it's in the teens and all my water outside is frozen?! I'll be lucky if I can get them both to stop coughing. I honestly hoped that once I pulled the bad hay it would stop. Apparently my good hay must also have some smoke in it....I can't see it though-checked the bales....If not, I'll have to switch to alfalfa cubes. A weanling and a senior horse on alfalfa cubes?! I don't know how well that's gonna work. The mom of the gelding is coming back home in 3 weeks. What's SHE gonna eat?
I raked the barn floor, I've pulled the hay feeder out of the pasture in 1 foot of snow (thinking maybe it's got some of that mold from the chaf frozen onto it?), I think I've left no stone unturned. My happy house is in an uproar all because I figured I could get away with it at least until my other hay came in. I'm miserable, the horses probably have had better times. Learn from my lesson!! Just don't even try it. I'll let you all know if this coughing stops.....if not it'll be a vet visit for Christmas  Thanks for letting me rant. I really needed that. 
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Member:
Angel77
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 21, 2005 - 1:19 am:
Dear Kim,
Oh my God you poor thing! I feel so sorry for you and your horses! I hope they are better right now. Feed can be such a problem!
Sometimes I feel that the bad people in the world do not get their Karma fast enough.
Why do they continually take advantage of people when the truth will come out eventually?
I will never figure that one out.
Please have a Happy Holiday!!!
WTG
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 21, 2005 - 7:15 am:
Hello Kim,
Considering how short the exposure your horses should stop coughing but it may take 3 weeks. Sorry for the bad experience and hopefully others will learn from your experience.
DrO
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Member:
Canyon28
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 21, 2005 - 12:17 pm:
I would not use hay cubes,either or both of your horses may choke on them. instead use hay pellets, and mix them with youth feed for the foal, and senior feed for the mare. I am feeding my 31 year old stallion only hay pellets, senior and grain now, actually the pellets he is getting are timothy pellets, made by standley feeds. I had to take him off of alfalfa completely because it was making his liver readings go up out of the normal range. He is eating about 2qts of each, timothy pellets, three way grain, and nutrena senior feed in the morning, and three quarts of the pellets at night plus about 2 qts each of the nutrena and grain. The timothy pellets are 9% protein, and also the grain, the nutrena is 14%, but mixed all together it brings it down to about 11 percent, i am guessing. I put hot water I bring from the house in 1 gal orange juice jugs onto his feed everytime I give him some when it is cold like this. Older horses need the extra water, sometimes they dont drink like they should, and it is sure cheap insurance that he is getting the fluids he needs. He actually loves it. He has no back teeth, so he cannot chew dry pellets or any hay what soever. He is in great health and fat and sassy you would never know he cant eat pasture or hay. In the summer and during breeding season I give him soy oil, about a total of two cups per day in several feedings on his feed. This keeps the weight on him without making him unruly. If you use the oil, you need to start slowly with small quantities and work up to the larger amount over a period of several weeks or more. Oil is one of the easiest ways to keep weight on an older horse or hard keeper.
another thing to worry about by putting moldy or damp hay into a shed or barn is FIRE. I get my hay brought in by the truck load, a stacker truck, I dont cover it or put it in a barn unless it is really dry. I use the top bales for my cows and calves I have, so there is no reason to try to cover it. In the past I tried to cover it and found that it got way moldier and damp covered, if the tarp has any leaks in it, it makes the hay worse than if it was not covered at all. I sort the hay out as I feed it. Hope your horses stop coughing soon. BTW, Cutter, my stud is still going strong and still very fertile, amazing for a horse his age! Chris www.canyonrimranch.net
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 22, 2005 - 7:42 am:
Christine I have known hundreds of horses that lived on cubes with no problems and dozens of horses who choked on pellets. Pellets should not be used as a replacement for hay, baled or cubed, unless a horse is unable to chew the hay because it does not regulate the bowel as well and the lack of scratch factor may result in horses chewing wood.
DrO
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Member:
Twhgait
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 22, 2005 - 6:47 pm:
Thanks everybody for the thoughts and suggestions! I read what I wrote and I sounded like a raving lunatic, but I was MAD! It's been a long 24hrs:
Last night Grandma (still coughing, as I expected) decided she now didn't want to eat either. She wasn't acting colicy, just no interest in food. She had a "concerned" look in her eye. I've had this mare for 10 years and I know her inside out. I took her temp which was 100.4 and called the vet. We decided to give her banamine and recheck. 1hr later her temp was down to 99.4, heart rate 40, still not eating (and no interest), no nasal flaring and resp. rate seemed normal for her, hyperactive gut sounds, pooping and passing gas. We pulled all the soaking wet hay (I think I have frostbite) and put her up for the night and the vet came out this morning. She was much more animated this morning and wanted to eat. He said she had an extra expiratory effort but no wheezes. He put a re-breather mask on her (not sure what that is, I do on humans, not sure if it's the same thing) and being the wonderful mare she is he said she probably would have stood there until she passed out, but he could see she was failing that. Diagnosis is a probable Heaves attack. He pulled blood to check what was going on there with ? infection. Did this hay do it? Maybe not but it was probably the straw that broke the back. Seeing as though she is 25 and very complacent and never sick, she may have had this off and on for awhile and we just never noticed it because she wasn't coughing. Regardless, she is on SMZ's, steroid taper and I have to soak their hay for a MONTH!!! The cubes are looking better and better, hahahaha! But I won't do that right now. If soaking will help her, then I'll do what it takes. After a month he said MAYBE we can try her back on dry hay and see how she does. The baby doesn't mind although when his mom comes home, it might be a different story. Besides, the extra water will probably be good for them all in winter. The baby is doing fine-vet checked him over too and he has no concerns. He coughed once for him and he tested his trachea? and otherwise, all systems go. My vet is PISSED at the hay guy, but of course there is no recourse or anything. Thanks again and I'll still keep you posted! DrO, I hope this treatment all makes sense and you can help me with this "re-breather" mask? If the baby is still coughing in 3 weeks, I'll just DIE!!!! He said grandma should stop coughing with the steroids.
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Member:
Twhgait
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 22, 2005 - 8:48 pm:
I just wanted to post her picture, so you all know who we are talking about....she's the best mare I've ever had and I love her so much! I bought her daughter just knowing she would be just like mom and I wasn't disappointed. I know she's fat........she's been enjoying all this hay that baby gets....That will be my next lesson....founder in the obese horse
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/TWHGAIT/PDR_0102.jpg
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 22, 2005 - 9:28 pm:
She is beautiful with a so kind look in those eyes. Reminds me of Sierra, complete with white spot. Shirl
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Dec 23, 2005 - 7:45 am:
The only problem with this diagnosis is it does not fit your primary clinical signs: off feed that is Banamine responsive. Living in a humid area with frequent unexpected summer storms we see lots of smoky hay and therefore lots of heevy horses. Having seen hundreds of horses with heaves over the years, being off feed is not a common or even uncommon sign. Even those horses that are having so much trouble breathing that they are breathing very hard continue to eat well.
Be sure to review our article on heaves about hay management.
DrO
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Member:
Twhgait
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Posted on Friday, Dec 23, 2005 - 8:51 am:
Thanks DrO and Shirl (I agree, I LOVE her kind eye!)
DrO, I will continue to review the articles until I have it memorized; I've already found a place that sells alfalfa cubes and we can re-arrange the paddock to put her up by herself to eat that and where she can't get a hold of any hay. She's already outside 24/7 with a large three-sided shelter/barn. I did pick up on the fact that heavie horses do eat and still act bright in the article......and I really didn't think she was breathing hard or heavy the night she went off feed. Maybe it was an unrelated colic. I guess I'll never know. Her gut sounds were hyperactive-I even thought she might be starting some diarrhea, but nothing ever came of it. They did have two hay changes (one rapid) in 3-ish weeks, so that could do it.
Onward and upward and I will watch her and baby like a hawk. I'm sure it's the steriods keeping her quiet right now so I have no idea if the wet hay is going to help her or not but I will be on top of it to make sure. It did seem to help baby. Fortunately, hay cubes are a meer half hour away!! Hard to think she may actually be starting to get old and needing more time to recover and I have to start treating her that way. She's always been a "young" senior and never required any special treatment outside of senior grain which she really doesn't even need.
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Member:
Twhgait
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 27, 2005 - 6:36 pm:
Update-Grandma continues on her steroid taper-she's down to 2 pills a day thru tomorrow, then 2 every other day for 3 more times. He told me that he has her on a low dose. Her coughing has pretty much stopped. I did hear her this morning give two coughs but that was the first time since Saturday. She is still eating (fingers crossed) and I'm to finish her SMZ's, which should be done by the weekend. Her bloodwork was normal-no infection. The baby still gives one cough with exercise and at supper today really surprised me by coughing into his grain. He hasn't done that in awhile; but it's defintely less coughing for him too. I'm still soaking the hay and I guess I'll know for sure it's working once the steroids are done. I'm getting the feeling that the soaking hay isn't working for baby.....
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Member:
Twhgait
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 29, 2006 - 4:13 pm:
Hello All! I'm reviving this thread to ask another question about this mare and her heaves.
Since I originally posted this last December (has it been almost a year already?!?), I've been soaking hay pretty consistently. Occasionally I will throw hay outside and let them eat off the ground without wetting and Grandma's been doing well with both types. There were some humid days this summer (yes, I was watching the weather too!) where she would have a coughing spell during her grain maybe 1-2 week, but otherwise, very quite and calm. No heave line, no wheezing, no nasal flaring, although occasionally this summer I noted small amounts of white snot in her nose. As the weather is getting colder and my time is getting limited in daylight, I've been feeding more dry hay. Again, no changes with Grandma except that I notice about 2-3 (sometimes less, sometimes more)times a week, she will do a nose-blow (not associated with meals or activity) followed by one dry cough. It's nothing like when she was heaving last winter. Those coughs were wet sounding (and she chewed like she was getting up phelm), much more frequent and lasted much longer when she had a coughing "spell".
Is this still heaves? A milder version? Or is this within normal limits for her age and history of heaves? P.S. Grandson and Maude's 10 year old daughter are doing fine with both wet and dry hay, daughter also occasionally had white snot this summer, but no coughs. The hay I'm feeding now is pretty good, although not excellent.
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 29, 2006 - 10:53 pm:
I don't have any answers, I just wanted to say how really nice it is to be able to hear more on Grandma.
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 6:30 am:
Hey, I just happened to be talking to a man at the grain store the other day (I think he was my farrier from when I was eight years old!). He was buying denji for an older mare of his to reduce respiratory problems for her. I have NO IDEA what everyone's thoughts are on denji, but thought I would throw it out there!
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 6:57 am:
I feed Denji hay in winter. Love it as does my horse. I use the hi fi.
Katrina
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 9:08 am:
There is no way to differentiate this vs a mild cold however all the clients I have with COPD horses that start to cheat a bit on management usually end up with a full blown heaves episode in time and further permanent loss of lung capacity. The article explains about this.
DrO
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Member:
Twhgait
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 2:27 pm:
LOL DrO, yes, this is cheating on my part, so I'll get back on track and do the soaked hay all the time. I was hoping that maybe this was just something else but I guess if the other horses don't routinely make the noises she does, then it can't be "normal".
I tried to Google Denji hay but came up empty! Does anyone have a link to it? Is it something all the horses could eat (including a yearling)?
Lee, she's one tough old bird! Her grandson tried to "one-up" her and pin his ears back at her a few night ago at the hay pile. Let's just say he won't be making THAT mistake again  . Thru the heaves and the bone on bone arthritis in her knees, she continues to run the show at home. I'm hoping that means that she's comfortable and happy!
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 3:18 pm:
Hi Kim,
It is spelled Dengie, that is why nothing comes up on google. Try this.
https://www.dengie.com/home.htm
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 3:41 pm:
This is the US distributor:
https://www.lucernefarms.com/
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 5:48 pm:
Kim, I love your mares attitude!
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 6:13 pm:
I second (fourth?) the Dengie. My old man Morgan lives on it in winter. Expensive, but easy, and you don't waste any. Good for nearly toothless types too because it doesn't quid.
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Member:
Twhgait
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 7:26 pm:
Thank you Debbie! I've contacted them, so I'll hopefully hear something soon. I'm interested to learn more about it! I still can't believe I've been soaking hay for almost a year already. Geeeeez!
LOL Sara, she's the sweetest mare to people, but when another horse tries to cross her....it's war! I'm sure Legs will continue to try to assert himself with her, so..... too bad for him! I just hope she doesn't kick him in a leg (again...).
Thanks again DrO and everyone!! You all have no idea how invaluable you are to me. I'm giving the "gift of Horseadvice" to my good friend for Christmas and I know she'll just love it!
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 11:07 pm:
What a great idea, HA for a Christmas present!! Thanks for the inspiration!
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 31, 2006 - 12:06 am:
I did try Dengie for one of my old guys that couldn't eat hay, but he did quid it. The length of Dengie "hay" (I think it has molasses in it, too) was just too long for him. Soaked alfalfa cubes worked well, though, as the alfalfa is chopped much shorter than the hay is chopped for Dengie. For a horse that can eat hay, Dengie would be even easier to chew.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 31, 2006 - 10:08 am:
What the heck is Dengie hay?
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 1, 2006 - 9:54 am:
Dengie is the brand name for Lucerne Farms, I think. They sell different types of hay that is heat dried, chopped, and of very good quality. Horses love it. But it does have a tiny bit of molasses added to it so some horses, I suppose, shouldn't have it.
It is more expensive than my local hay but I wonder if it more cost effective for some of you who have outrageous hay prices? I think I pay around $7 for a fifty pound bag, but I could be way off.
There's always so much on my delivery invoice that I seldom check anymore!
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Member:
Twhgait
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 1, 2006 - 10:38 am:
I did get a response for the Lucerne Farm and unfortunately, they don't have a supplier in my area. She said they're more then happy to ship pallets, but my cost, with shipping, would probably be $15/bag. I THINK I figured the math out right...if my mare weights 1200lbs, she would need 24lbs a day (2% of total weight a day)? So a pallet would only get me about 20 days worth for approx $600. I did ask her if they are looking into suppliers in my area, and I'll see what she wrote back when I can check my home e-mail.
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Member:
Choney
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 4, 2006 - 8:48 pm:
Kim,
The cheapest I have found dengie is 11 bucks a bag. Right now my heaves girl gets 130 bucks a month worth of it. Not cheap but better than seeing her in respiratory distress. She is on it year
Cher
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Member:
Kstud
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 5, 2006 - 5:20 pm:
Hi Kim,
Just a thought, keep an eye on your breathing after the hay incident too. Had noticed a pain behind my sternum for the past while and felt as if I had the flu and had no energy at all. Went to doctor, did tests and discovered that I now have farmers lung from one exposure only to dusty hay. Am on steroids and inhalers now and I never had any wheeziness or asthma symptoms....scary. If in doubt please get checked out too.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 5, 2006 - 8:22 pm:
Kim, the Dengie is of very high quality and there is virtually no waste if you feed it from a contained area. It isn't necessary to feed as much as you would regular hay, I find.
You might find that it isn't as expensive as you think, especially if your horse is relatively inactive. My Morgan doesn't eat anywhere near as much as your estimate (even if you adjust for his smaller size), but he gets senior food and grass, too.
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Member:
Twhgait
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Posted on Monday, Nov 6, 2006 - 10:47 am:
DrO, FYI, since I went back to wet hay 24/7, Grandma has pretty much stopped her variety of noises! You were right again! I'll be honest though, the thought of another winter of soaking hay is killing me!
Catherine, thanks so much for the heads up! I actually have had a upper respiratory cold for the last month now...I think I shook one cold and got another. So far, it's just feeling like a regular cold, but the way I've been burying my head in every flake three times a day DOES get concerning when we know it does damage to the horse. If I can't get rid of this cold within a week, I think I'll make a trip to the doctor's office!
Erika and Cher, I was wondering too, if 2% wouldn't be too much. This mare is a very easy keeper (and isn't ridden anymore) and I imagine giving her 2% of her body weight a day in any type of hay would be way too much. Really, $130/month isn't too bad. My next problem would be seperating her from the other two to feed only her the dengie....I'm going to check into this with my husband.....!
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 7, 2006 - 12:12 pm:
Kim I second what Erika says about the dengie. 1 % per body weight would be probably all you need as there is no waste , no stemmy parts. Thats all my horse needs and he is not an easy keeper. It really does not end up to be much more expensive in the long run.
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