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  Discussion on Joint supplements
Author Message
Member:
Gwen

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 27, 2005 - 9:42 am:

I am sure that this has been discussed, and I have read as many prior posts about djd. However, I was wondering if I could get some input about the latest in joint supplements that are working well for people. I hope Dr. O doesn't cringe when he sees this post! I have posted so many times about my qh. He is a very high maintenance boy with a ton of various issues. I have gotten the muscles feeling better with a diet change for epsm. Now, I think I need to address his joint troubles. The hard footing has taken a toll on him and he seems sore. He has confirmed diagnoses of arthritis in his neck, as well as changes in the joints of his feet due to improper shoeing in the past. I think I should start an oral supplement. I just thought I would start a new thread to get the latest information possible. Thanks!
Member:
Lilly

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 27, 2005 - 10:08 am:

Hi Gwen,
Thanks for starting this thread. I have actually been wanting to ask a question about joint supplements too but haven't gotten off my lazy butt to do so. I myself feed my 19 year old thoroughbred Cosequin. He has DSLD or SLD. I am not sure which - yet. I have been reading a lot about hyaluronic acid lately. It sounds like good stuff! Should I add that in to the Cosequin or switch supplements altogether? What about MSM? It sounds like some pretty good stuff too but SmartPak recommends that it is only given for short periods of time. Does that matter when your horse is 19 and given a prognosis of 2-3 years to live? Can I give it all the time? SHOULD I give it all the time? There are sooooo many choices when it comes to joint supplements that it can be confusing Gwen.
Member:
Gwen

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 27, 2005 - 10:40 am:

Hi Ann, I actually read/heard somewhere recently that new studies are showing that MSM actually increases degeneration. That is part of the reason I posted. I wanted to see if anyone else heard about that. I can't remember where I saw it. Maybe it was even on this site!!
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 27, 2005 - 10:52 am:

Hi, Gwen,
I posted to the last discussion about this, and mentioned that my vet had told me that recent research at Davis had shown that MSM can be detrimental in horses over 20 years old. I have tried to contact both the vet and Davis to get more specific information, but haven't gotten any response. I just sent an e-mail to the vet again this morning to ask him for a reference for the research information he sited. If I hear anything, I will post it here.

I do know that the owner of the old mare got a glucosamine supplement (NUFLEX) that had 7500 mg of glucosamine per scoop, recommending 3 scoops a day for the first 21 days. This puts the loading dosage above the most beneficial amount which the vet told me is at LEAST 10,000 mg of glucosamine per day. The supplement also contains Yucca which, I think, the vet said helps with reducing pain.
Member:
Lilly

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 27, 2005 - 11:51 am:

Gwen,
My horse, Sebastian, just had ultrasounds done last week. The vet that performed the examination is of a very high caliber - he was one of the vets at the '96 Olympics in Atlanta. When I asked him about MSM he said, "Go ahead and give it to him. It won't hurt anything." I have lots of magazines and other resources at my house. I will see if I can find some recent info on MSM. I want to say it was mentioned in either The Horse Journal or Equus recently.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 28, 2005 - 7:19 am:

Hello All,
Our articles on joint treatments (and all other subjects) are updated daily as new information is published and when it comes to degenerative joint disease (arthritis) that usually means once a month.

Having just attended a seminar that was an overview of where we are with DJD today given by Dr. McIlwraith of CSU, the foremost researcher in the world on equine and possibly human non-rheumatoid arthritis, I don't think you will find more current work than in Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » The Joint Protective Treatments and our other articles on DJD.

We look to update the articles after a thorough review of the text version of his lecture but from a practical treatment perspective there is nothing I heard during the lecture to change the recommendations we are now giving in the articles.
DrO
Member:
Gwen

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 28, 2005 - 8:05 am:

THanks Dr. O. I am constantly amazed that we can access such current and thorough information so easily on this site. I thought you had said that you update it frequently, that is why I wanted to begin a post about this. I didn't see anything regarding the MSM issue and knew that I had seen something about it, so wanted to see if anyone else had info about it. I also wanted to get others' thoughts on specific brands of oral supplement they are using and are happy with. As informative as the article is, I just thought that my horse (as so many do!) had some unique circumstances that didn't necessarily fall into any "norms". For example, he has two areas of djd that are bothering him rather than just one. Thank you!
Member:
Lilly

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 28, 2005 - 8:47 am:

Hi Gwen,
I found the article I was looking for. The Horse Journal recommends a product with high-dose MSM, hyaluronic acid, or anti-inflammatory herbs when you are dealing with an acute condition or if the horse is prone to flare-ups with heat and swelling.
Member:
Gwen

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 28, 2005 - 9:31 am:

Okay Ann, thanks so much. I wouldn't say that he is prone to flare ups. However, his neck tends to be warm frequently. He even sweats there at times. With the feet, he just gets "ouchy" when on hard ground.
Member:
Onehorse

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 28, 2005 - 9:47 am:

Gwen:

In your last post you asked specifically what products other members are using and our experience. So ....

In regards to joint supplements for horses, my experience with my own horse (as well as combining experiences with friends and fellow horse owners) is that no brand of supplements works effectively on ALL horses. Since the supplements themselves are a combination of different ingredients and dosages a lot of experimentation may be required to find a joint supplement that works with your horse.

In my case, I noticed signs of joint arthritis in my 15 year old gelding, which was confirmed by X-rays. I first used a supplement obtained through my vet, Chondrycite (a liquid supplement). A certain level of effectiveness was observed, but not enough for my satisfaction. He was on Chondrycite for about 9 months.

We then added Adequan to the regiment and further improvement was noticed --- again on and off stiffness remained.

Some of my friends started using ChonDrOycite and saw no improvement. Based on their experiences, I substituted Next Level and Cosequin for the Chondrycite over the next two years searching for improved results, but they seemed to offer about the same results. Finally, I tried a product called Joint Discovery (by U.S. Animal Nutritionals -- I have NO affiliation to the company). The Joint Discovery, in combination with Adequan shots, seems to have done the trick for my horse.

He's now 19 years old and I trail ride him quite regularly on long 3 to 5 hour trail rides with no stiffness or 'day after ' effects. In fact, he seems more lively and the 'spring' in his gait has returned.

I have recommended Joint Discovery (pellets) to all my friends, and those who have seen the results in my horse (and are quite amazed) have tried it. Vast improvement in their horses occurred, but for ONLY some of them. Other friends saw no difference or improvement over what they were currently using.

That is why I feel that lots of experimentation with different brands is necessary.

The regiment for my horse is: Joint Discovery twice a day and an Adequan shot every 10 days (IM). My gut is that the Joint Discovery would probably be enough on its own since I sometimes fail to administer the Adequan for weeks at a time. I should also point out that recent X-rays show that his 'arthritis' has not progressed, i.e., recent pictures look about the same as previous ones.

That's my experience.
Member:
Lilly

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 28, 2005 - 10:03 am:

Gwen,
My article in the Horse Journal tested 60 different joint supplements and gave a review for each, along with cost. If you want any more information on a particular supplement, feel free to email me: aswit@verizon.net . It seems like the cheapest supplements are sold in the Country Supply catalog: www.countrysupply.com

Ann
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Dec 29, 2005 - 7:37 am:

Two comments and a question:
1) Concerning the Horse Journal I was a charter member many years ago. I loved this journal back when Michael Plumb covered issues of equestrian interest but in the examples I have researched I do not think that the experimental design of medical research in the Horse Journal leads to conclusions that are significant.
2) Concerning MSM there is no work of which I am aware that shows an effect on DJD or any other diseases process.

Rick can you tell us what is in the Joint Discovery, its concentration, and dosage rate?
DrO
Member:
Gwen

Posted on Thursday, Dec 29, 2005 - 7:51 am:

Thanks Rick, for your thoughts. I ended up going with Cosequin for now. We'll see how it goes...
Member:
Equus75

Posted on Thursday, Dec 29, 2005 - 10:15 am:

Hi Gwen.
I have to add my two cents to this issue, as my mare has very bad arthritis in both of her hocks. I had her hocks injected in April, and by August I was thinking I should have them re-injected, as she was starting to look very short-strided once again. I began researching various supplements, and came about a supplement called Recovery...a couple of people in my barn are using it and note fantastic results.

I put my mare on it in August, and I noticed within about 2 months, she was moving ALMOST as well as when she first got injected. She definitely seems to feel better, at any rate. She also gets Adequan shots and one bute/day, but it wasn't until I started using Recovery that I noticed any significant difference. You can research this for yourself at https://www.recoveryeq.com/recovery_eq.htm.

On a different note, my sister uses the human form of Recovery for her arthritis (she actually recommended it to me...saying "it'd be nice if they made a horsie version") and noted a definite benefit. I just find that there are so many different supplements out on the market that choosing one for your horse is downright intimidating...I struggled for a while trying to figure out what supplements would NOT be a huge waste of money, and I'm pretty confident that this supplement is worth every penny. Just thought I'd offer my input.

Happy Hunting!
Dawn
Member:
Lilly

Posted on Thursday, Dec 29, 2005 - 10:16 am:

Dr. O,
Thanks for the information about the Horse Journal. I like most of the information they provide and I love the fact that there are no advertisements but I have had some doubts lately. My horse may be included in an article soon and it seems like his test results are being interpreted in a way to work best for the article.

I like to use the SmartPak Equine catalog when I shop for joint supplements. I don't buy them out of that catalog, I just use the information to sort out the pros and cons of each supplement. They provide easy to read charts which compare the supplements side by side. That way you can see the ingredients of each supplement and the ratio of ingredients. I believe this chart is accessible at their website: www.smartpakequine.com .

I just looked in my dictionary to find "accessible" and I passed by "bridle path". Webster's dictionary describes a bridle path as: a path for horseback riding. That's funny, I have never heard it used for anything other than clipping your horses mane for the bridle.
Member:
Lilly

Posted on Thursday, Dec 29, 2005 - 10:41 am:

Dawn,
I just looked up the Recovery EQ in my SmartPak catalog to see what the ingredients are. It has a very nice amount of Glucosamine in it and a lot of MSM. You may have just answered my question about MSM! Thanks for sharing your experience.
Member:
Miamoo

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 3, 2006 - 10:55 am:

I love the recovery products (Equine and small animal). They are the most complete I have seen. My navicular synDrOme mare has been sound on the Eq for several months now (since she started on it). She has magnet boots too so I don't know if it the chicken or the egg or just good luck!

Ella :-)
Member:
Equus75

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 3, 2006 - 8:30 pm:

Not a problem, Ann. Like I said I have nothing but praises to sing about Recovery...I wonder if I can make a commission off my mare as the Recovery poster child?

Dawn
Member:
Onehorse

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 3, 2006 - 10:34 pm:

Dr.O,

Sorry I took so long to respond to your request. I was a way for the New Year period. The Joint Discovery ingredients are:

JOINT DISCOVERY™ EQ
Formula:
Active Ingredients Per Scoop:
Methylsulfonylmethane . . . . . . . . . .4,500 mg
Glucosamine HCl . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2,000 mg
ChonDrOitin Sulfate . . . . . . . . . . . . .1,200 mg
Manganese AA Chelate . . . . . . . . . . . 50 mg
Inactive Ingredients: alfalfa meal, apple flavor, cane molasses, sorbitol, wheat germ meal, propionic acid, Vitamin E complex.

There's a 'load-in' dosage of two scoops twice a day for about 30 days, then 1 scoop twice a day.

The company also has a Joint Discovery for Senior Horse that has higher doses of the active ingredients, plus Vitamin C.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 4, 2006 - 6:27 am:

Happy New Year Rick,
This is not bad Rick. The MSM and manganese are a waste of time and money if you are feeding your horse correctly, but the glucosamine and chonDrOitin are recommended and in commonly recommended dosage ranges. We are starting to hear from the experts that higher dosages may provide more benefit, for more on manganese see:
Care for Horses » Nutrition » Minerals and Nutrition. For more on the active ingredients see Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx).
DrO
Member:
Angel77

Posted on Thursday, Jan 5, 2006 - 6:36 am:

Dear Dr O,

Today I spoke with Sharone from Amerdons Rapid Response. www.amerdon.com She mentioned I could find 3 separate articles about Rapid Response in the Horse Journal. They are not paid advertisements.

In the Horse Journal the December 5, 2005 issue for Nutraceuticals(which is currently posted on Amerdon's website), March 2005 for Ulcers, and October 2003 for other problems such as ring bone.

All of these problems were either reversed completely or immensely improved by Rapid Response.

I have no affiliation with Amerdon beside the fact I have been purchasing and giving it to my horse for three years as an all around supplement for my 11 yr old TB jumper who previously had hock problems(had to inject 2 yrs in a row before Rapid Response).

Rapid Response has been the answer to my horses continuous soundness and all around great health. He has not had to have his hocks injected for 3 yrs.

Apparently the ingredients are listed under the human section of their website. I asked about the patent. Sharone said no one can patent an herbal remedy, or a vitamin that already exists.

My new shipment will arrive tomorrow. I will post any pertinent information for everyone to view.

Rapid Response has helped ten of thousands of horses with a various range of problems across the world.

Considering Rapid Response has the ability to heal so many different problems horses face today. I would think this alone would have everyone clammering to at least research Rapid Response if not buy it in volume.

There are so many supplements for coat, joints, energy, muscle, etc on the market today. It is hard to know what to believe.

Every horse reacts differently to various supplements. So what ever is working for your horse stay with it.

If you are still searching for the greatest overall supplement give Rapid Response a try. It may be the end of searching and wondering.

I found Rapid Response through researching my horses hock problems. Many of my friends at the barn recommended this product as a mysterious miracle.

Upon further inquiry I found several Dressage, Hunter and Jumper barns using Rapid Response, as well as countless celebrities. I gave it a whirl and never looked back.

So I have decided to stay with Cosequin, Legend, Rapid Response 2 oz daily, 1 1/2 lb Senior Equine daily with 1 lb of alfalfa pellets and get rid of all of the other supplements.

As you know my horse has been on a plethora of supplements because I am a worry wart horseaholic.
And I also thought supplements were just normal protocol.

As to the MSM I never saw a difference in my horse during the 90 days he was on it.

I will keep you posted as to any changes.

Thank you for a wonderful forum!

WTG
Member:
Eoeo

Posted on Thursday, Jan 5, 2006 - 11:35 am:

Rapid Response is an excellent product. The only draw back to it is it needs to be refrigerated which is the kiss of death if you wanted to use it on a horse in race training. The trainer isn't going to go to the refrigerator every day and get the Rapid Response to put in the grain, or orally. A horse we have here has been on it and it worked wonders for him while he was HERE. EO
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jan 5, 2006 - 5:18 pm:

Hello All,
The Horse Journal is not a peer reviewed scientific publication and I have found their past research on medical products...wanting of adequate controls, see above.

Rapid Response is an example of another supplement with a large number of what appears to be randomly selected nutrients which are found in adequate to excess amounts in a good diet. There are also other things in there that there is no work on horses on their value making evaluation difficult. There is some chonDrOitin - glucosamine listed as ingredients but I cannot find the daily amount provided.

If you are seeing a response to it's use you are either addressing some deficiency in your feedstuffs or more likely the improvement was incidental to the other good care you provide, other than arthritis perhaps. But not knowing the amounts even this is hard to judge. I have not found a need for such a supplement inspite of having tended to thousands of horses over the years.
DrO
Member:
Angel77

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 - 1:41 am:

Dear Little King Ranch,

They use Rapid Response at the track all the time. I will post some of the testimonials from the case studies. There are refrigerators at the tracks in the barns. I used to exercise for two different tracks in California.

I am glad you have also had success with Rapid Response.

God Bless all the animals and the people who care for them!

WTG
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 - 8:21 am:

Hello WTG,
Having worked the Miami racetrack circuit very early in my career I find they do many things at the track that are not efficacious, and some even detrimental. It is the one place where superstition was worse than in a A circuit hunter barn.
DrO
Member:
Eoeo

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 - 10:50 am:

WTG, did they use it externally as well as internally? EO
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Friday, Jan 20, 2006 - 3:15 pm:

Hi, All,

I finally heard back from my vet here in California . . . I had asked him about his statements about avoiding MSM in supplements for older horses. This is what he told me today:

My experience is annecdotal. After attending a workshop/talk in San Diego, at which a well-respected vet presented a talk on joint supplements, it appears that her experience has yeilded a high incidence of light cases of laminitis in older horses (over 20 years old)that are supplemented with MSM. As soon as the MSM is removed from their diets, the laminitis disappears. Thus, she has found that it is advantageous to avoid MSM in horses over 20 years old, and if joint supplements are indicated, just use the ones that don't have MSM.

My vet said that documented research on this MSM component hasn't been done, and that it may be difficult to find funding for research due to the use of MSM by many, if not most, of the companies that promote supplements.

My vet says that he is recommending that people with horses over 20 years old avoid MSM in their horses diets because he trusts the San Diego vet who has an excellent reputation.

I will say that I have a friend whose older Arabian mare foundered consistently in her final years. She was put down this past winter at the age of 23. The owner was a very strong believer in MSM for her horses and used large doses of it in the daily feedings and is EXTREMELY anal about micromanaging every aspect of her horses' diets. She lives on the phone with the vet, and was trying to do everything "right" for this older horse. Whether or not the MSM was a factor in the laminitis episodes is unknown, but worthy of further study.
Member:
Lilly

Posted on Friday, Jan 20, 2006 - 4:09 pm:

Holly Wood,
Thank you so much for posting your recent information on MSM. I have a horse that is around 20 and has DSLD. Much of the research I have done on DSLD recommend MSM. I just purchased 4 lbs of it! I am going to try it out. If I notice any problems that I believe are associated with the MSM I will post my results on this thread. I have been noticing my horse standing in weird positions lately and I think the pain of the DSLD is starting to get to him. That is why I am trying the MSM.

Ann
Member:
Scooter

Posted on Friday, Jan 20, 2006 - 4:43 pm:

Hmm that is very interesting as I have a 25 yr. old mare that I was giving a joint supp with quite a bit msm and she seemed worse with it. I even had vet out and had blood tests done. When he was here I told him she was weight shifting alot almost like founder, but not. Anyway I have my older gelding on a different joint supp (Sho-Flex)no msm and he is doing great. I switched the mare to this 2 weeks ago because of his results and truly there is a remarkable difference. She actually moves now. Could be a coincidence of some sort but VERY INTERESTING. Thanks for the info
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Friday, Jan 20, 2006 - 4:59 pm:

You are welcome, Ann. Does your horse all ready get 7,000 - 10,000 mg per day of glucosamine with or without chonDrOitin?

From what I understand, it isn't the MSM that is the joint supplement, but that it helps in the metabolization of the glucosamine and/or chonDrOitin. I need to reread the article here on joint supplements. I do know that the vet here recommends a minimum dose of 10,000 mg per day of glucosamine in order for it to do anything constructive, if it IS going to do anything, (I think the article on HA states a lower dose) and the NuFlex provides 7,500 mg per scoop, and recommends 3 scoops per day for the loading dose for the first 21 days, and it doesn't have MSM . . . so that is what I have used with the last couple of horses as I've tried to follow the vet's recommendations.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Friday, Jan 20, 2006 - 5:07 pm:

Interesting, Diane, and you are welcome, also. I posted to Ann's response before I got yours.

Since so many of us are using joint supplements with our horses, maybe those of us with older horses can keep a watch and see if the removal of MSM from older horses' diets reduces any tenderness? It wouldn't be a perfect study, but if nothing else in their diets changes but the MSM use, it would be food for thought . . . and maybe a springboard for future research.
Member:
Lilly

Posted on Friday, Jan 20, 2006 - 6:20 pm:

Holly Wood,
My horse, Sebastian, gets 2 scoops of Cosequin every day - mixture of glucosamine and chonDrOitin. He spends a lot of time with one of back legs cocked up - trying to get the weight off it. Lately, I have noticed him standing with his back legs touching from the fetlock to the hock with one foot slightly lifted. He then separates his front legs about 2 feet apart with the knees bowing toward each other. I don't know if it's a sign he's uncomfortable or it just looks weird. While in this stance he usually hangs his head a little low.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Friday, Jan 20, 2006 - 6:38 pm:

Just my two cents...last year I did up my horses' cosequin to 6 scoops a day (3 in the am and 3 in the pm) to hit the 10,000 mark, helped immensely. May give that a shot instead of the msm...if I read correctly, you are still considering giving msm a try?
Member:
Lilly

Posted on Friday, Jan 20, 2006 - 7:56 pm:

Hi Aileen,
Yes, I am still planning on using the MSM. Why? The Horse Journal lists it as effective against active inflammation. Smartpak Equine lists it as effective against inflammation. My chat group has some members who claim it helped their DSLD horses. The vet who did Sebastian's ultrasounds said "it wouldn't hurt". Dr.O just said it was a waste of money. Who's right? I don't know. I have also been told my horse should be kept in a small paddock by one person (vet) and told to be on 24/7 turnout by others.

All I know for sure is that there is no cure for my horse. All that I can do is try to make him more comfortable until it's time to say goodbye. Every time I go to the barn to see him (I board him about 4 miles from home), I am looking for signs that he's getting worse. He loves to stand under a tree in the middle of the field. I have to check and make sure he isn't leaning against it. If he is standing very close to another horse I check to see if he is leaning on the other horse.

When his ultrasounds were done in December, the vet said that Sebastian has 2-3 years left. That's not very long. I have never had to put down a horse before and it's going to be very hard for me. I have a lot emotionally invested here. I just want to ensure that these last few years are as pleasant as possible for him.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 20, 2006 - 9:15 pm:

The Horse Journal may say it, but there is no scientific evidence that MSM is effective antiinflammatory or antioxidant therapy when given orally.
DrO
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Friday, Jan 20, 2006 - 9:54 pm:

Ann, I understand the frustration and worry of having old horses who can't tell me "where it hurts," and seem to be not quite "right." We listen to vets, read, try different remedies . . . We experiement with different things to see if anything helps them feel more comfortable . . . and we worry that we might not be doing enough or might be doing something wrong.

It sounds like your horse is trying to find relief by holding his weight in a particular fashion. Is it obvious that he has changed his stance to the present position, i.e., did he used to stand in a more normal fashion?

I don't remember if you said he was receiving Bute. That may help him feel more comfortable.

It would be interesting to see if increasing the joint supplement, first, will help him . . . probably over the period of a few weeks' time . . . and if that doesn't help, then try the MSM and see if it helps or hurts? I guess it is not a good idea to increase both at the same time, 'cause then you wouldn't know which ingredient is effecting any changes in him, if there ARE any changes.

I'll be interested to see if you find something to help him feel better. There can be all kinds of things going on inside of him that you may never know. Some horses age more quickly than others, just as some people age more quickly than other people do. Aging and death are facts of life here on earth, and they are hard facts when we love . . . Best of everything to you as you continue to care for your horse.
Member:
Lilly

Posted on Friday, Jan 20, 2006 - 10:23 pm:

Thanks Dr.O! I am just glad MSM is really cheap. At least I didn't waste too much of my money :-) In a few weeks I am going to a podiatry clinic with Dr.Andrea Floyd in Virginia. She might have a few suggestions for dealing with Sebastian's pain.

Holly Wood, thanks for the kind words. Earlier this evening I started thinking about how my frustration really involves two individuals in my life. I have been so frustrated because I can't get a good idea of how long Sebastian has to live. It occurred to me tonight that I have a similar situation with my grandmother. She was diagnosed with liver cancer over Thanksgiving and I can't get a clear answer as to how bad off she is.
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Jan 21, 2006 - 8:27 am:

Dr. Karen E.N. Hayes, DVM, MS while talking at an equestrian event in Jacksonville (she is from Idaho, I think) suggested giving MSM PRIOR to giving Bute (and maybe Banamine too, but have to check back in my notes) to help prevent the effect of intestinal damage that though extremely minor, cumulatively may build over a period of years caused by the drug/s. I haven't ever used MSM with my horses, but this idea sounded interesting to me. I would have to look back to see how much she suggested and what the exact period of time (couple of hours?)was prior to the drug being given. Sorry, Ann to hear about your cancer concerns. I recently lost my 50 year old sister (she has two young children) to cancer and it was a roller coaster experience.
Member:
Angelvet

Posted on Saturday, Jan 21, 2006 - 12:11 pm:

I recall a study printed in the EVJ last year,I believe,where they followed a group of thoroughbreds entering training in the spring and racing through the year. Half the horses were supplemented with MSM and the rest were not supplemented. Routine thermographic scans were done throughout the training period and race meet, as well as comparisons of races run and money earned. The researchers were specifically looking at muscle pain and tying up,as I recall. They did find that the horses on MSM showed less muscle pain overall during training,with more races to their credit and higher earnings. I can't remember specifically when it was published,or even for sure if I have the right publication,but it is the only study I can recall that was done on MSM.
Member:
Savage

Posted on Saturday, Jan 21, 2006 - 6:05 pm:

Hollywood, who was the San Diego vet that did the talk about joint suppliments?.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Saturday, Jan 21, 2006 - 6:35 pm:

Hi, Linda,

I'm sorry. I didn't even think to ask, I guess, since the info was anecdotal and not published research.
Member:
Miamoo

Posted on Saturday, Jan 21, 2006 - 6:44 pm:

Ann,

I just read your post about a clinic with Andrea Floyd. I corresponded with her a bit earlier in the year and am still very interested in her work. I would love to hear about your experiences!

Ella :-)
Member:
Savage

Posted on Saturday, Jan 21, 2006 - 8:32 pm:

Hollywood, your probably right, thank you for letting me know. :-)
Member:
Lilly

Posted on Saturday, Jan 21, 2006 - 8:41 pm:

Ella,
I am really looking forward to my weekend with the ladies! I am going along with a close friend and my farrier will also be there. Dr.Floyd seems very laid back and comfortable to be around. Who knows, maybe I will want to be a farrier after the clinic is over! Just kidding - my back couldn't take it.

If anyone wants to learn more about Dr.Floyd and the amazing work she has done, check out www.serenityequine.com

Ann
Member:
Angel77

Posted on Sunday, Jan 22, 2006 - 4:20 am:

Dear Little King Ranch,

Yes Rapid Response T is used both orally and topically. I have only used it once topically for a wound that was 7 inches long and 1/2 an inch wide.

My horse had cast himself and scrapped his left hind with the right hind with brand new shoes. It did not need stitches but it was pretty nasty.

I wrapped the leg for 5 days so as not to incur infection and it healed up quickly. After that I used Rapid Response T for two weeks until the wound was scabbing. The Rapid Response T kept the wound pink and healthy. There is no scar at all. All of the hair grew back within 4-5 weeks.

Sorry I did not reply sooner, I would have loved to but HA is having a problem sending me my emails. I have not had an email from Horseadvice.com since Jan 2, 2006.

Is anyone else having this problem? I can log in and peruse the site and post emails but I do not have any current emails to reply to. So I am randomly searching. It is a pain.

I wish someone from HA can fix this problem soon as I have emailed several times to no avail.

This has never happened before so I am assuming it is a computer glitch.

Have a great day!

WTG
Member:
Angel77

Posted on Sunday, Jan 22, 2006 - 4:22 am:

Dear Dr.O,

You mentioned you worked at a racetrack. How many years ago was that?

WTG
Member:
Eoeo

Posted on Sunday, Jan 22, 2006 - 10:55 am:

You might go in and check your profile and see if the send repnses to your posts is checked. I wasn't getting responses to my posts, I had to come back to HA and check them. I checked that box and now responses to my posts are coming. EO
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Sunday, Jan 22, 2006 - 11:07 am:

Also, sometimes your local ISP will upgrade equipment and inadvertently block some of your emails. If this is the case, they just need to go in and change some of their settings re: your account.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jan 22, 2006 - 5:38 pm:

Hopefully WTG will read this response as we have been trying to get to her for 2 weeks now, both by email and replying in discussions that she has posted to. Wiley has it right, we have been sending emails to your, our emails to you are getting received by your server and we are getting 250 OK receipts back from your server. When this has happened with other members the problem has always been that their server is filtering out our email. Wendy, please quit flooding our email boxes and post to one of the help forums. While we are traveling our connections are very slow and it is making it difficult for us to get our email.

WTG, to answer your question to me, I worked on Calder and Gulfstream racetracks for Dr. George Burch back in 1984. I considered doing this for awhile so took on an internship under Dr. Burch. Though I loved the backside environment, I did not really enjoy some aspects of track work.
DrO
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jan 22, 2006 - 5:41 pm:

Hello Dr R,
I cannot find the MSM reference in EVJ or any of the refereed equine journals using a PubMed search. Do you have this in your library as I would love to review it?

For years I have searched in both the human and equine literature for some evidence that MSM has some medical value and until this fall there just has not been anything other than occasional very subjective reporting in the alt med journals. We had used it a lot back in the 80s and did not notice help with arthritis and oddly we still find ourselves using it off and on as sometimes it is included in the chonDrOitin supplement we are trying. We do not notice a difference between the times their is MSM in there and not.

This fall I did come across this interesting study:
Osteoarthritis Cartilage. 2005 Nov 22;
Efficacy of methylsulfonylmethane (MSM) in osteoarthritis pain of the knee: a pilot clinical trial.
Kim LS, Axelrod LJ, Howard P, Buratovich N, Waters RF.
Southwest College Research Institute, Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine & Health Sciences, Tempe, AZ, USA.

OBJECTIVE: Osteoarthritis (OA) is the most common form of arthritis and the second most common cause of long-term disability among middle-aged and older adults in the United States. Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM) is a popular dietary supplement used as a single agent and in combination with other nutrients, and purported to be beneficial for arthritis. However, there is paucity of evidence to support the use of MSM. METHODS: A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial was conducted. Fifty men and women, 40-76 years of age with knee OA pain were enrolled in an outpatient medical center. Intervention was MSM 3g or placebo twice a day for 12 weeks (6g/day total). Outcomes included the Western Ontario and McMaster University Osteoarthritis Index visual analogue scale (WOMAC), patient and physician global assessments (disease status, response to therapy), and SF-36 (overall health-related quality of life). RESULTS: Compared to placebo, MSM produced significant decreases in WOMAC pain and physical function impairment (P<0.05). No notable changes were found in WOMAC stiffness and aggregated total symptoms scores. MSM also produced improvement in performing activities of daily living when compared to placebo on the SF-36 evaluation (P<0.05). CONCLUSION: MSM (3g twice a day) improved symptoms of pain and physical function during the short intervention without major adverse events. The benefits and safety of MSM in managing OA and long-term use cannot be confirmed from this pilot trial, but its potential clinical application is examined. Underlying mechanisms of action and need for further investigation of MSM are discussed.

It is interesting if I read this right: the patients report feeling better and doing more yet there was no improvement in stiffness and aggregate symptoms.
DrO
Member:
rgwromeo

Posted on Sunday, Oct 24, 2010 - 12:23 pm:

Has anyone tried Platinum Performance CJ? A vet recommended it for my 23 AQHA geldings arthritis as well as overall health. What were the results? How much did you give daily? How long did it take to see results?
Debby
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 27, 2010 - 5:15 pm:

Hello Debby,
I believe we can help you with your question but let me get you started off right so you can get the best answer as quick as possible.

You will get more responses if you start your own discussion rather than post at the bottom on another member's discussion. Each discussion is "owned" by the original poster and all replies in that discussion should either directly or indirectly address the concerns of the original poster.

To start your own discussion back up one page using the navigation bar at the top of this page. This will be a Article Page on this topic. Below the article you will find a list of already existing discussions on this topic. Under this list you will find the "Start New Discussion" button. We do have a better article covering your topic where you can start your discussion. You will find it at HorseAdvice.com » Treatments and Medications for Horses » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » Oral Glucosamine, ChonDrOitin Sulfate, and Hyaluronic Acid, their use in Arthritis. This will be a Article Page on this topic. Below the article you will find a list of already existing discussions on this topic. Under this list you will find the "Start New Discussion" button. You should first review the article as it will have important information on your subject. Next check the titles of the already existing discussions to see if your question has already been answered.

If your question remains unanswered, now is the time to Start a New Discussion. Select a short title that describes your specific concern. A title like "Help!!!" does not help others find your specific topic. Instead something like "Ace for Colic?" allows others to rapidly find and understand what your topic is about just by viewing the title. This is likely to bring more responses from those with some experience with your topic and allows members to find answers to their questions quicker. Something else that should be included in your questions in the ingredients, their concentrations, and dosage recommendations.
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