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  Discussion on Iron overload?/
Author Message
Member:
Lilly

Posted on Saturday, Dec 31, 2005 - 1:21 pm:

Hi Dr.O,
I recently had the iron levels in my horse tested. He is being considered for a study on DSLD. The vet leading the research is trying to connect iron levels in horses with the occurrence of DSLD. His blood sample was sent to Kansas State University and the results are:

IRON: 102 UG/DL
TIBC: 275 UG/DL
FERRITIN: 344 NG/ML

Anyways, I have been told by the vet doing the research that Sebastian has an iron overload. Is this correct and if so what should I do concerning his care? The blood sample was taken about 5-6 hours after his morning meal of sweet feed and a few hours after having his teeth floated.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jan 1, 2006 - 11:42 am:

Very unusual Ann,
he is absolutely correct. This is unlikely do to grains or grasses and most likely do to some type of supplement. Have you fed any supplements in the past 6 months? If not what is your horse eating, in detail, including pasture situation?

You will find a discussion about deficient and toxin amounts of commonly measured minerals at Care for Horses » Nutrition » Minerals and Nutrition.
DrO
Member:
Lilly

Posted on Sunday, Jan 1, 2006 - 12:23 pm:

Sebastian's turnout is strictly dirt. There's no grass to eat. His hay is a nice looking timothy hay, very sweet smelling. The horses are given hay to eat in the field and some for breakfast and dinner in their stalls. He is fed Blue Seal Sweet Feed every day. His supplements are Focus SR and Cosequin and he also gets daily wormer. He also gets about 1 carrot a day and 2-4 horse treats a day (nicker makers or Mrs. Pastures cookies, maybe stud muffins). Sebastian is very full looking for a 19 year old gelding. I always interpreted his roundness as healthy but could it signal something bad like insulin resistance?
Member:
Lilly

Posted on Sunday, Jan 1, 2006 - 1:00 pm:

Dr.O,
The vet doing the DSLD research is Dr.Eleanor Kellon VMD. She is the veterinary editor for the Horse Journal. She is the vet who said Sebastian has an iron overload. Here is something she said about iron in horses:

"One other thing I should have mentioned in the last post is to avoid vitamin C in iron overloaded horses, probably vinegar too. Vitamin C increases iron absorption in the small intestine, and so do the organic acids in vinegar. Higher levels of vitamin C inside the body also increase damage from iron. It can liberate iron from storage sites."

Does this sound right? I checked the ingredients in Focus Sr and it contains 300ppm iron and 8,000 mb/lb of Vitamin C per daily serving. I also looked up Blue Seal Vintage Sweet feed on the internet and it says it has added vitamin C. Could the iron overload be coming from his Focus SR supplement?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jan 1, 2006 - 3:44 pm:

Yes vitamin C and organic acids do enhance absorption but I am uncertain they are a primary problem, but they do contribute. 300 ppm of iron is not high for a feedstuff but perhaps something happened in the mixing or your horse has an unusual sensitivity to its presence. You certainly should discontinue all supplemental sources of iron. Can you supply us with a list of ingredients and their concentrations in the other feedstuffs?

If there is no other supplemental source of iron I would have the horse retested and if it comes back high again I would have the feedstuffs tested for excess iron.
DrO
Member:
Angel77

Posted on Monday, Jan 2, 2006 - 12:02 am:

Dear Ann,

Just a crazy thought could it be the water source?

My horse is on Cosequin, Focus SR, Vita Plus, Mirracoat, StrongidC2x daily wormer, Apple cider vinegar, Electrolytes, Raw flaxseed, Vit E & Selenium, and Amerdons Rapid response,

After my horse had an allergic reaction to bad hay I bought my own hay for the grooms to feed to my horse. At this time we found out my horse was anemic. His hemocrit level was 25.2 in October 2005.

So the vet recommended Red Cell, AccelLifetime and Redmonds salt for a total of 325grm of iron daily.

I took him off the Focus SR and the Vita Plus and replaced these two with AccelLifetime. His Hemocrit two months later(December 2005) was 24.

So we are back on the Focus SR and the Vita Plus and will test again in Feb 2006.

He was also off alfalfa for 1 1/2yrs as he has horrible behavioral problems on alfalfa. Biting, grinding his teeth and pawing while I brush him, etc.

He is back on alfalfa at one large flake in the evenings. Timothy in the morning and oat at lunch. I am slowly incorporating the alfalfa into his diet as not to colic him.

His energy level is back in fact the second day back on alfalfa he bit me, not hard, but just enough to leave a nice bruise.

It seems you and I are on the opposite sides of attempting to meet in the middle. Your horse needs to lower his iron as my horse needs to increase his.

I have used Focus SR for three years and at 300parts per million(ppm) my vet said it would not be enough iron to make a difference yet when my horse was off of it for two months his Hemocrit level went down by 1.2 points.

Food for thought I guess.

Good luck, keep us posted in your findings as I am interested in what you may discover.

Happy New Year!

WTG
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jan 2, 2006 - 7:53 am:

Mmmmmm if 1.2 pts was significant perhaps but it falls within the error margin of most tests for HCT and is not significant. WTG's problem probably has nothing to do with supplements and much to do with the low to marginal protein feeds (timothy and oats) she uses. Hopefully the horse will tolerate the alfalfa better and the HCT improve as the diet improves. The point about the water is good, if this is water that is approved for human use probably has been tested for iron, but if you don't find the source elsewhere it is worth a check.
DrO
Member:
Lilly

Posted on Monday, Jan 2, 2006 - 8:30 am:

Thanks Dr.O and WTG,
I had to laugh a little when I read your post WTG. I feel like Sebastian and MYSELF are fighting opposite wars. I always have low iron when I go to give blood.

I will have the water tested as well as his hay. Sometime today I will get out to the barn and get the ingredients to everything he has been consuming. How serious of a problem is this Dr.O? How concerned should I be? He LOOKS and acts healthy - except for his DrOpped fetlocks. He has a very pleasant attitude and is a joy to be around.

Ann
Member:
Canter

Posted on Monday, Jan 2, 2006 - 7:10 pm:

Just a thought: Is it possible that there is a rusted old something that perhaps the frost heaved out of the ground that your horse is licking that may cause the excess iron?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 3, 2006 - 7:48 am:

Unlike foals, adult horses are quite resistant to the toxic effects of iron. In foals it causes an acute hepatopathy resulting in liver failure. The main effect of high iron on adults seems to be decreased resistance to infectious diseases. I would do all I could to get serum ferritin levels below 250 ng/ml. Elevated liver enzymes may give you a feeling if there are any ill effects yet but will not tell you how serious it is.
DrO
Member:
Lilly

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 4, 2006 - 3:21 pm:

Thanks Dr.O. I have verified that Sebastian's water source is city water. I have discontinued his Focus SR. Here are the ingredients in his feed and his Focus supplement.

Blue Seal Vintage Sweet:

Crimped oats, Coarse Cracked Corn, Soybean Hulls, Rice Bran, Ground Corn, Corn Distillers, Dried Grains, Wheat Middlings, Wheat Flour, Calcium Carbonate, Monocalcium Phosphate, L-Lysine MonohyDrOchloride, DL-Methionine, Calcium Sulfate, Magnesium Oxide, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Cobalt Carbonate, Calcium Selenite, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, Riboflavin, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Niacin, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine HyDrOchloride, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate, Oat Mill By-Product.

Crude Protein (Min) 12%
Crude Fat (Min) 8%
Crude Fiber (Max) 7%
Calcium (Min) 0.60% (Max) 1.10%
Phosphorus (Min) 0.60%
Copper (Min) 50ppm
Chelated Copper 12ppm
Manganese (Min) 120ppm
Chelated Manganese (Min) 20ppm
Selenium (Min) 0.55ppm
Zinc (Min) 145ppm
Zinc (Min) 40ppm
Vitamin A (Min) 5000 IU/lb
Vitamin E (Min) 85 IU/lb


Focus SR:

Flax Seed, Dehydrated Seaweed Meals, Yeast Culture, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, Dried Streptococcus faecium fermentation product, Dried Aspergillus oryzae fermentation extract, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Corn Distillers Dried Solubles, Zinc Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ascorbic Acid, Pyridoxine HyDrOchloride, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Natural Flavoring.

Crude Protein (Min) 14%
Crude Fat (Min) 8%
Crude Fiber (Max) 12%
Calcium (Min) 0.5%
Phosphorus (Min) 0.4%
Magnesium (Min) 0.45%
Zinc (Min) 3500ppm
Manganese (Min) 3000ppm
Copper (Min) 1100ppm
Iron (Min) 300ppm
Iodine (Min) 230ppm
Ascorbic Acid 8000Mg/Lb
Pyridoxine (Min) 2000Mg/Lb
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jan 5, 2006 - 6:32 am:

Good steps but have you considered having your horse retested by a different lab just to be sure a mistake was not made? You can get the iron levels in your water from your city water utility but I wonder if local factors like pipe might cause problems, I bet they will test for free. And finally if all this does not turn up the problem consider having the forage tested.
DrO
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Sunday, Jan 8, 2006 - 7:22 am:

We have very high levels of iron in the soil and water here - but not in excess of the WHO limits for humans - it's just annoying as everything goes orange that comes into contact with the water except for the house water, which we trickle-filter through sand to oxidise the iron and precipitate it as iron oxide (very cheap third-world treatment method, works brilliantly).

It never occurred to me that horses might be worse affected than humans, I just assumed if it's ok for us it's ok for them.

Our horses drink from the stream and I'm now wondering if I should be piping the house water for them and blocking access to the stream. What are the limits for horses please Dr O and I will get the stream water tested...

Mind you they don't show any signs of any sickness including the 9 month old foal...

Thanks

Imogen
Member:
Lilly

Posted on Sunday, Jan 8, 2006 - 8:13 am:

Hi Imogen,
I would have never guessed that Sebastian had an iron overload before he was tested. He was only tested because he is being included in some research being done on horses with DSLD. He has DrOpped fetlocks but otherwise looks and acts very healthy. Yesterday morning when I let him outside he literally jumped out of my hands. It's funny how you have to protect them from themselves. I just stand at the gate yelling, "Stop running! You're going to hurt your legs!!!"

Dr.Kellon, the vet leading the research project on DSLD, said something about horses living in swampy conditions having high iron. I am not sure what about the wet ground causes the high iron. Is it absorbed through the hoofs or does it come into their body when they graze? It is something else for me to look into.

Ann
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jan 8, 2006 - 8:33 am:

Though I have no proof Imogen, I am of the opinion that if it is safe for humans it is safe for horses, see the article I reference above for recommendations on concentrations.

Iron is not absorbed externally and comes into their body by ingestion.
DrO
Member:
Lilly

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 - 9:42 pm:

Hi Dr.O,
Well, my search for the source of Sebastian's iron overload has been stalled while I deal with info I found in his old vet records. I finally got a hold of his old vet records, year 2000-2003. Aside from several lacerations that required stitching, most of the entries concerned chronic lameness, swollen fetlocks and stocking up. He was officially diagnosed with DSLD in May 2003.

Now that I know he has already been diagnosed with DSLD I have been spending most of my time researching this disease. It is very interesting and I have been getting a lot of support from the DSLD-equine Yahoo! group. One of the most common complaints among the group is the pressure put upon them by fellow horsemen to continue riding their horses even though the vet may have said otherwise. Take my horse for instance. I have now had two vets say to retire Sebastian and use him as a companion - based on physical exams and ultrasounds. But, the fellow boarders at my barn AND the barn manager think I am crazy and I am overreacting. It's very frustrating.

Also very interesting is the occurrence of death threats by the Peruvian Paso community. My vet claims that he received so many threats that he removed his name from a DSLD research paper wrote back in the 1990's. I am not sure if this hostile environment still exists or not. Hopefully it is not slowing down research because there is so much that needs to be learned.

Thanks for your help. Ann
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 - 11:44 pm:

Ann, Death Threats!???!!! Hopefully, not seriously!

Is DSLD something that only Paso's get, or other gaited horses? Or can any breed have it?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 - 7:23 am:

We have a number of discussions on DSLD that answer Sara's questions and some deal with the exercise controversy, Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Lower Limb » Degenerative Suspensory Ligament Disease.
DrO
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 - 2:37 pm:

Dr. O....Very interesting! I've had horses my entire life, been breeding for almost 30 yrs., and am constantly amazed by how much I don't know! Luckily, I love learning and love your site.
Member:
Lilly

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 - 9:48 pm:

Hi Sara,
Yes. There have been death threats. As I learn more and more about DSLD and sift through the messages posted on my DSLD group, I am beginning to understand why. While DSLD can effect any breed, it seems to hit the PP very hard and fast. There are PP owners that have witnessed very heartbreaking deterioration of their horses health knowing there is no cure available - only euthanasia when the pain is too much. I believe that it was these owners who witnessed the disease that frightened PP breeders to the point of becoming extremely defensive. After all, here were these people claiming something was "wrong" with their breed of horses. And if they were implying that it might be genetic, well that could totally screw over the breeding business.

I need to sit down and read everything that Dr.O has on this website concerning DSLD and then ask the questions I can't find answers to. While I am finding my Yahoo! group extremely helpful, I don't make a habit of following anyone's advice blindly. They recommend letting your horse go barefoot - Dr.O recommended eggbar shoes to me in an earlier thread. I agree with Dr.O. Sara, if you would like to learn more about DSLD, check out www.dsld.org and www.dsldequine.info and keep a look out for my future thread on DSLD...when I get my questions in order : )
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