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  Discussion on Odd behavior and ulcers?
Author Message
Member:
Dsibley

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 3, 2006 - 10:07 am:

Well, I had just a wonderful start to the new year! My almost 4 y/o QH, Mister, is at it again. If you recall, he is the one who kicked the snot out of his stall...two-inch tongue and groove, and he went right thru it. We covered the hole with a rubber mat, and there are no signs that he had done it since.

Yesterday, there was a lot of activity at the barn...eighteen horses in the arena for roping, lots of kids running around, etc. The boarded horses couldn't get out because of the weather, so were standing finishing their breakfast. Mister has a tendency to weave a little if left stalled too long, so he gets a dose of Quietex at night if he's going to be inside.
Anyway, I got a call from the barn, saying he was acting 'funny'. When I got there, he was biting his sides, his flanks and his front legs. He was obviously in distress, but it was sporadic. He would quit this and go on eating. There were two piles of poop and a pee spot in the stall that had been 'deposited' since 7:30...this was at 11:30. I gave him a dose of Banamine and turned him outside with my mare to keep him company. No food. He just stood around for about two hours, then started getting agitated again. He started picking on the mare (nipping her butt, eating her tail, butting her with his nose), then began biting his flanks and sides again. He started acting like there was one of those big 747 horseflies on his butt...bucking and violent kicking. I went out to get him while on the phone to the vet. There were, in my estimation, good bowel sounds. I started walking him, and everything was fine. No more biting, etc. The only strange thing he did was if we touched him on the belly or sides, he would bend his head and look at us. But no adverse reaction.

By the time the vet came, Mister was fine. The whole time he kept trying to eat anything around him...rags on the stall doors, straw, hay, anything lying around. The vet examined him...good gut sounds in all four quadrants, no fever, no evidence of an acute colic. He agreed that there was something going on, and suggested either an ulcer, or a kidney stone, although there was no 'parking out' or other signs of that.

So, I guess I have several questions. First of all, does this sound like an ulcer? His last 'episode' was about six weeks ago just after he had a dose of Bute for a cut/swelling on the foot. That was when he kicked thru the wall of his stall. About four weeks before that, he was noticed biting his sides and being quite agitated in an outdoor pen at night, but once I got there, he seemed to have no problems, and we thought he might have been scared of something in the pasture. (remember he is pretty insecure). He had been out on pasture all day, and no Bute or other meds, and hadn't been ridden for a few days.

Any other suggestions? Sorry so long, but I wanted to give as much of the story as possible. He has shown no signs that he's been off his feed, has DrOpped no weight...in fact, he's been growing quite a bit. No coat problems. I have noticed him grinding his teeth a couple of times when I ride him in the arena, but this goes away. Only other thing weird he does is he yawns more than other horses.

Thanks, all.
Member:
Eoeo

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 3, 2006 - 2:00 pm:

I would be interested in what everyone thinks too. Our 25 year old stud snaps at the air out in front of him on occasion. This summer I thought maybe some gnats were bothering him, however I saw him do it a couple of times about a week ago and it is COLD here so that isn't the reason. I have seen him yawn once after he did this recently. This summer he didn't yawn. EO
Member:
Dsibley

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 3, 2006 - 8:17 pm:

Mister yawns a lot with the bit, but he is green, so I thought he was just getting used to it (I use a three-piece Mylar snaffle, so it's not too harsh). Teeth have been floated, so that's not the trouble. When the vet was there yesterday, he must have yawned ten to fifteen times. But I don't see him doing it when he's just standing in the pasture/pen. Maybe it's me?
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 3, 2006 - 10:48 pm:

I've had a couple of older mares that would grind there teeth as a warning (I took it to be at least) to other horses when they were really irritated about something. They'd put their ears back and grind their teeth while looking at the horse they were mad at; sometimes they'd also threaten to kick at the same time.

I always thought that a horse that yawned a lot had something wrong in his mouth, not necessarily something wrong with it's teeth, but maybe a foxtail or something else that was irritating. I've also known young horses that yawn when the are getting used to the bit, or an older horse will yawn if the bit doesn't fit right.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 4, 2006 - 7:38 am:

You describe pretty typical behavior for some horses faced with prolonged stall time and a lot of excitement going on. Does he have ulcers? That I cannot answer but I would return him to his normal routine and see if things don't improve.

I have never found products like Quitex of any benefit. Why not have acepromazine on hand to be given during times of stress, I think you will find it much more beneficial once you get the dose titrated right. See Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals » Sedatives & Anesthetics » Acepromazine.
DrO
Member:
Dsibley

Posted on Thursday, Jan 5, 2006 - 7:59 am:

I should have asked if it sounds as though a scope to check for ulcers is the next reasonable step. Last night I gave him 12 peppermint Tums before I rode him. There was absolutely no yawning or teeth grinding. We didn't ride hard, but he seemed very compliant and actually wanted to canter a little on his own. If the Tums keep working, I think I'm leaning toward having him scoped to see if there's an ulcer there. Your thoughts?
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Thursday, Jan 5, 2006 - 10:32 am:

Hey Dianne
If I were you, I would definitely have my horse scoped ... it is not too bad of a procedure, as far as being terrible for the horse to tolerate, and it will give you definitive answers (ie peace of mind)! Good luck, and please keep us posted. One of my horses has chronic gastric ulcers, and the treatment has meant all the difference for his health and happiness (and therefore, mine)!
Nancy
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Thursday, Jan 5, 2006 - 10:39 am:

Oh, Dianne, I forgot to say that we had to change a lot of things for my guy with ulcers, not just adding Gastrogard! He has a stall that opens up to a private paddock for him, three meals a day, and hay in front of him all the time! It was hard to get this accomplished at first, but he is sooo much better that it was worth all the effort. He, too, became very agitated at other excitement going on around him, any changes would get him painful, so he also has a friend to go out with when we have to do that, too. In other words, he is a lot of trouble, but I have a feeling you understand that it is worth it!
Nancy
Member:
Dsibley

Posted on Thursday, Jan 5, 2006 - 2:39 pm:

Oh, yeah. He is definitely worth it. Our immediate problem might be resolved soon...we're building our own barn, and Mister will have a 60' x 24' lean-to open to an outdoor turnout. He will be there with his ladyfriend Java and our two colts when they're old enough. I think he will be much happier. My brother is going to live with us and will be there to take care of the ponies for us...so three feedings a day won't be a problem. Will also have plenty of good pasture if the DrOught didn't burn it all up! He is such a love...all 16.2 of him! (Not my brother...the horse!!) He's not quite four, so still filling out and growing. I'll keep you posted in the meantime. I want to see if the Tums make a difference, then will schedule a scope if he seems better with those.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 6, 2006 - 8:52 am:

Yes if you wish to move this along a bit faster scoping is perfectly logical. I would wait to see if a return to normal routine does not get him back to normal within 3 days.
DrO
Member:
Dsibley

Posted on Friday, Jan 6, 2006 - 12:21 pm:

He was fine as soon as the vet got there. Go figure. I started using the Tums before riding him, and as I indicated before, the yawning and tooth grinding went away. I am going to schedule the scope, but if behavior resumes in the meantime with the Tums 'therapy', I'll have to look elsewhere. Thanks for all the good articles and advise.
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Friday, Jan 6, 2006 - 12:29 pm:

WOW, dianne, your plans sound GREAT! Remember, if it is ulcers, they do not always respond to the Tums treatment (every time), though your guy seems to be responding! And, as I mentioned before, your plans for his schedule, turnout companion(s), and stalling sound PERFECT! Good for you, also, to have a bro who can help with feeding!!! Keep us posted on how your guy(horse) progresses!
Nancy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Jan 7, 2006 - 11:34 am:

Nancy brings forth a very good point that I should have addressed. Not only will they not cure ulcers it seems unlikely the tums are effecting the behaviors you are seeing, at least from an ulcer standpoint, see the article on Ulcers for more on this. Maybe he likes them? I would like to hear if you leave it out if it starts the behavior again.
DrO
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 10, 2006 - 11:14 pm:

I've had a horse do the strange "snapping at the air" while at the same time, kicking the water tank and playing with the water. (colic signs with him). Led away from the tank, the snapping at the air continued. This was consistent with the fact he had ingested too much corydalis weed. The strange "snapping" is one of the symptoms of corydalis ingestion. The weed had significantly slowed his gut, which was too quiet. A dose of banamine fixed it (plus me removing the offending weed). Don't know where you live, but this weed is pretty widespread. In Florida it thrives during the coldest months of winter and will be green when nothing else is, after freezes. If enough of this weed is ingested it can (according to the book on toxic weeds for horse owners) cause sudden death.
Member:
Contilli

Posted on Friday, Jan 13, 2006 - 2:27 pm:

I have a similar stressful situation - I'm building an indoor.

I've been looking at GastroGard at 4mg per day of Omeprazole (Prescription Required)
and
UlcerGard at 1mg per day of Omeprazole (NO Prescription Required)

If both of these products are exactly the same, but one doesn't need a prescription, then why not use UlverGard at the GastroGard dosage? Aren't these two products the same?

Thanks,

Denise
www.BryantFarm.com
Member:
Martina

Posted on Friday, Jan 13, 2006 - 6:11 pm:

It's the same stuff. UlcerGard is marketed as a preventative, while GastroGard is marketed as a treatment. Just two different ways for the company (Merial) to make money.

I am just completing the 28-day treatment with my gelding (using a full tube of Ulcer Gard 1X/day) and he is a totally different horse (back to his old self). I now plan to continue on a maintenance dose (1/4 tube 1X/day) for the next 4 weeks.

Thus far the cheapest place I've found for UlcerGard is Medi-Vet in Louisiana.
Member:
Contilli

Posted on Friday, Jan 13, 2006 - 8:15 pm:

Hi Tina-
Thanks for the answer -

I am building a 72x200 indoor. My builder set trusses and that night they all fell down. Like dominos! My horse has been terrified since (5 weeks ago). Even the workers whom don't know horses say he is defiantly different since the crash. Anything the builder does around here totally terrifies him. He has become head-shy and flighty! Poor BABY! I want to start him on this because of the stress. More of a preventative measure - or possibly he already has them! He has gone off grain in the mornings and at night comes in and takes a bite then walks out of his stall to look around. This continues to eat this way until he is finished then he stands outside 'at attention'. Today I gave him Calm and Cool and it helped tremendously! Will dose him with that each morning when the workers are coming. They finally finished with the sheet metal so that noise is done - yeah! They are taking two weeks off then will be doing my stirrup rail inside.

Glad it is the same as it is slightly cheaper and I don't need a prescription. I also, I found the same site you mentioned, BUT, eBay has it for 22 per tube! Can this be right? Would you buy it there? The person selling it has sold over 5000 items with 100% feedback. That is great stats! I'm afraid to buy meds there for some reason..... how about you?

Thanks again,
Denise
www.BryantFarm.com
Member:
Contilli

Posted on Friday, Jan 13, 2006 - 8:38 pm:

This is the photo of the crash - Max is just 30 feet from the building. I can't move him anywhere on my farm as I have mares due to foal in March. I don't want my mares near this project.Barn Crash
Member:
Dsibley

Posted on Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 - 9:27 am:

That is awful! I'll have to show my builder!

Mr. has been doing well. I give him Tums only when there is a situation that has seemed to make him upset in the past...such as when there are 20 horses roping in the arena just outside his stall...Maybe my theory is flawed, and I am open for suggestions, but I thought if the behavior came back while on the Tumtherapy, that would indicate there is another problem. Given that this has seemed to help, I am looking more and more toward having him scoped.

I wanted to take this slow with him, as he has had some very bad experiences with vets (sorry, DrO), and I wanted to use this as a last resort. I guess I could put him on the Ulcergard and see if that works. He's just such a 'woos' about meds.

The good news is that I found a vet that seems to be able to 'talk' to him. Mister has been treated so badly by vets in the past that he usually stands with his nose in the air, eyes rolled and starts trembling. Buzzy was able to lower his head and work with him almost immediately. Now that's worth a million! (No, not all at once...we'll pay it out in small increments...shots, scopes, etc. etc..)
Member:
Martina

Posted on Saturday, Jan 14, 2006 - 3:33 pm:

Denise, I wouldn't hesitate (personally) to get my UlcerGard on eBay, providing the expiration date is valid and the seller has a good rating. The tube itself comes sealed in cellophane (not like paste wormers, which are loose inside the box), so you'll know that no-one has tampered with it. I just paid $230 for 7 tubes because I didn't check eBay first (shame on me!)
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Sunday, Jan 15, 2006 - 9:45 am:

Hey Denise
WOW, you found Omeprazole on Ebay! I went to the site and checked it out, and it looks good to me. Good for you! I buy a lot of Omeprazole for a horse who stays on a maintenance dose during training and showing, and my next purchase will be on Ebay! You can email the seller for the exact expiration date before you buy it, too. Good luck with your horse ...
Nancy
Member:
Martina

Posted on Sunday, Jan 15, 2006 - 10:33 am:

Another way to save money is to visit https://www.ulcergard.com. There's a $2 rebate offer on each tube (up to 7 tubes), AND you can register to win a 28-day supply.

I'm also using APF (Advanced Protection Formula) from Auburn Labs on my guys but, I haven't a clue if it's working or what it's doing, if anything (just started it). Since I found the marketing/merchandising to be compelling, it's another one of those "well, I don't think it could hurt" purchases. I've got one horse with EMS and one horse who's a worry-wart, and it's supposed to be good for both. Once I'm through the first 2 bottles I'll make a determination of whether to continue or not. By the way, you can find APF on Ebay too.
Member:
Dsibley

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 25, 2006 - 2:43 pm:

OK...I have good news and bad. The good news is that Mister scoped clean today. The vet spent the better part of an hour looking at every nook and cranny, and the only 'abnormality' was a healed spot from an old ulcer (he said very old) and the 'band' (I can't remember the name) was slightly more red than normal, but he didn't think that was significant.

The bad news? We don't have a clue what's causing his behavior. The Tums seemed to help, but he has been having more and more episodes. Dr. feels that he is mildly colicking and wants me to add wheat bran to his diet, as well as small dose of electrolytes and some oil. He said to continue the Tums, as his getting upset seems to preceed the behavior. These additions should help things move thru easier and help with any bellyaches.

Any thoughts? Please help.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jan 26, 2006 - 7:06 am:

Have you started the omeprazole yet?
DrO
Member:
Dsibley

Posted on Thursday, Jan 26, 2006 - 8:33 am:

No, I didn't. I decided to have him scoped first to find out if there was anything there, or if we were looking at something else.
Member:
Dsibley

Posted on Friday, Jan 27, 2006 - 5:31 pm:

So, any ideas as to what might be going on, or am I doing the right thing with changing the feed to try to make processing easier for him?
Member:
Dsibley

Posted on Thursday, Feb 2, 2006 - 2:09 pm:

Thanks, all, for all the help and advice. Mister is doing really well on the add to his eats. Only one very short episode this week, and it only lasted for about thirty seconds. You have all been so helpful!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Feb 3, 2006 - 7:00 am:

I missed the 27th post diane, the last 2 weeks have just been crazy. I still think following the original idea of maintaining a quiet stable environment and increasing the amount of pasture time (a overall more horse friendly environment) is still the best but if you are finding something that seems to be helping great, keep us appraised to any changes.
DrO
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