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  Discussion on 3 month old foals Die suddenly
Author Message
New Member:
Echoval

Posted on Monday, Jan 16, 2006 - 3:51 pm:

I bred my mare twice and each time the foal died when it reached the age of three months If I would breed this mare again should I have her blood tested and what would I have it tested for ? Or should I try again and have the milk tested each time the foal acted very healthy up to 3 months and than it just got real skinny in just two days and died nothing helped
Member:
Traveler

Posted on Monday, Jan 16, 2006 - 4:16 pm:

Patricia, I am so sorry for you, that's a tough one. I have a few questions if you don't mind. Do you do the prenatal vaccinations on your mare? Did you check the IgG at birth? If so, what was it? Did you do a postmortem? Anybody else in the barn sick?
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, Jan 16, 2006 - 4:50 pm:

It is so difficult so see a young foal die - it seems like such a waste of a life.

Did the foal exhibit any symptoms other than weight loss? Fever? Diarrhea? No interest in food? Lack of energy? Was the foal getting anything to eat other than the mare's milk and if so, what?
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Monday, Jan 16, 2006 - 5:33 pm:

Gosh, Patricia, I'm so sorry for your loss. It must be heartbreaking. I hope next time will not have this awful outcome! The only disorder I could suggest you look into is a genetic disorder that can be carried in the Arabian breed by some that have a particular genetic defect. It is called SCIDS, and I really do not know if other breeds have the potential to carry it. It is an autoimmune disease that affects young foals ... sounds like this could be a possibility that you could explore. Of course, DrO can point you in the right direction here. I do not know much about the disorder except that an apparently healthy foal will suddenly become ill and die. The carriers of this disorder can be identified thru DNA work, and two horses who are carriers should never be bred to each other, as the result is fatal! But the good part is that thru testing, one can avoid breeding carriers. Good luck in your future breeding efforts ...
Nancy
New Member:
Echoval

Posted on Monday, Jan 16, 2006 - 6:17 pm:

no did not check IgG thought with first foal that maybe it was the weather then bred her again the second foal was a large foal just great looking full of life and mare was bred early so weather was good so I thought the first one died because of the nasty weather but when the second one died I knew something is"nt right we don"t have the best vet around here it is over a two hour ride to see a good horse vet and I have to depend on other people to take me their.no one else was sick so it has to do with the mare but what type of blood test do I have done.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, Jan 16, 2006 - 9:25 pm:

Were the foals Arabian? Were they from the same sire? If so, I totally missed that! And, if so, do check into the SCIDS. Most Arab stallions are tested now and the owners can tell you if he is a SCIDS carrier or not. You should also find out if your mare is or not. As Nancy said, if one or the other isn't, than the foal should be o.k (as far as SCIDS goes) but if both sire and dam are SCIDS, then the foal will probably die within 3 mos. of birth.

Young foals can go down hill really quickly from seemingly innocuous things, but it's unusual for three in a row from the same dam.
Member:
Gafarm

Posted on Monday, Jan 16, 2006 - 10:45 pm:

I hate to inject this here, but the previous posts regarding SCIDS are very inaccurate. Only 25% of the foals resulting from two carrier matings will be effected and die, not all of them as was stated. Here is a link to an article for more info. https://www.vetgen.com/scid.html
One way to eliminate this possibility with your mare is to go to www.foal.org where you can get a SCIDS test kit and test your mare. It costs less to get one from them because they get a group rate which is considerably less than what VetGen charges if you request one directly from them. The last one I got cost $100 and you can easily do them yourself. It's just a mouth swab/brush thing that you use on the inside of their cheek and send it back in to them.
New Member:
Echoval

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 - 5:23 am:

The mare was bred to two different studs each time Mare is also Grade Will check with original owners to see if the mares father was arabian I know he was a small horse mother was a large horse
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 - 9:58 am:

Unfortunately there is not enough information to answer your questions Patricia. Were there no other symptoms prior to death other than weight loss? As a first step I would like you to fill out your profile concerning your management programs for us to review.
DrO
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 - 6:22 pm:

...Really informative site, Donald. I was looking for more info in a site like that before I posted, but could not find it. Unless I missed it, does SCIDS affect ONLY Arabian horses? It does not look like SCIDS has anything to do with Patricia's foal deaths, but good to know, non the less! Thanks,
Nancy
Member:
Gafarm

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 - 6:40 pm:

Arabian horses have been used to develop and improve other breeds, especially Appys and Morgans so there is some chance that the SCIDS may crop up but very small chance that may happen.
Not enough research with the other breeds to say for sure.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 - 7:03 am:

Thanks for filling out your profile Patricia. Your history, description of symptoms, and lack of any real deworming program suggests your foals may be dying of intestinal parasitism. I would be interested in any other information you have about them.

I went to Frank Lampley's site and his statements about modern dewormers on the Basic Mineral Salt page is untrue. Also the information he implies about his Basic Mineral Salts is hard to document since he does not give the ingredients however the general gist sounds like..ummmm...let's say less than the truth also.
DrO
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 - 1:29 pm:

Donald, thanks for the SCIDS site. I've added it to my vet folder so I can go back from time to time and refresh my memory.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 - 2:12 pm:

Out of curiosity I looked up Frank Lampley's site and looked it over. I then did a search and found some very interesting sites re: Mr Lampley and his products. One is the following:

https://www.fda.gov/cvm/CVM_Updates/lampup.html

There are several others. Interesting. I wonder how many other supplement mfgs. are in a similar "boat?"
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 - 2:24 pm:

Yeah, me,too Sara ... "interesting" guy. I think I'll stick with the products and procedures I'm currently following. AND, thank goodness for our Horseadvice site!!!
Nancy
Member:
Echoval

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 - 3:50 pm:

At the time I bred that mare I was not using Frank Lampley"s products I used reg rotational dewormers foals had no temp stopped eating and just laid around they had been wormed at 10wks all I want to know is what kind of blood tests to ask for on this mare we only have a cow vet close to here. I have had other mares have foals with same conditions and they all had healthy foals just have problem with this one so what type of blood test do I ask for ?
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 - 5:54 pm:

How very weird, Patricia. I'm glad you're trying to get to the "end" of this. I'll be reading and learning. I'm very grateful for a good repro vet nearby!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 - 7:35 am:

There is no specific blood work that is going to diagnose a condition in the mare that causes sudden death in foals at 3 months of age Patricia. You can have the mare carefully examined to see if she has any health problems but with the gestation, birth, and first 3 months going well, it seems unlikely anything will show up. If you decide to breed her again you should carefully review your management program for the mare and foal, see the reproductive section for articles on this, and have the foal examined at birth and perhaps again at 2 months of age. Even if your vet looks at cows, there are some awfully good cow vets out there. He might be able to pick up something and perhaps bloodwork on the foal might be illuminating. If you do loose a 3rd foal a through necropsy would be in order to discover the problem.

Wow Sara, good investigative work but I see these FDA documents are 5 years old. Frank Lampley's internet site is still making claims that are nothing short of incredible for products for which he gives no ingredients.
DrO
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