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Discussion on Upward fixation of the patella
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Member:
Sully
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Posted on Monday, Jan 16, 2006 - 4:06 pm:
Hello all
I have with interest been reading about stifle lock and with great excitement found the article on the newer treatment for it. About 10 days ago, I and my sister each had a horse treated using the splitting method. Both horses had been internally blistered with iodine (twice for my filly) with no lasting results. In case anyone is thinking of using this treatment for their horse, I will keep you all updated. They did it a little different than the article suggested in that they put small slits the whole length of the stifle. The Dr. said that they had been doing this for approx. 3 to 4 years and that treating the whole stifle seemed to give better results with 90% no longer catching after the procedure. Anyway, they suggested rigorous trotting for 30 to 45 minutes per day for the 1st week, then they could go back to their normal routine with riding at least 5 to 6 times per week. The 1st 6 weeks seem to be the most critical and results will be seen within this time if it is going to work. They are both in training for cutting, so if this does not work I guess they will have to be put to use elsewhere as even an ever so slight hitch makes a huge difference in working position and whether they can bring home a check and help pay their way!
Nancy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 - 10:16 am:
Super Nancy, I can't wait to hear how this works out.
DrO
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Member:
Sully
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Posted on Monday, Jan 23, 2006 - 1:34 pm:
Hello All,
Just an update on the 2 horses that were treated on 1-4-2006. It has been almost 3 weeks now, and in talking with the trainer neither one has shown any signs of catching. He had already been riding 1 of the horses and the other one was new for him. The horse he had been riding, he had called to say that the horse was very talented, but without 4 good legs under him, (meaning the stifle catching) he did not think it payed to keep him in training. Since the surgery, the trainer is very pleased with the results. So far everything is favorable!! The other horse (who he had not rode before the surgery) he called to say she can really move her feet and he really likes her! This is from a man who does not waste any words. To say I am excited would be an under-statement. If anything changes, I will let you all know.
Respectfully,
Nancy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jan 23, 2006 - 8:19 pm:
Thanks so much for the update Nancy, be sure to keep us up to date.
DrO
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 24, 2006 - 11:25 pm:
Thanks, Nancy, it's the kind of first hand experience so many want to hear. Good luck!
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New Member:
Cletus
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 25, 2006 - 12:34 pm:
Nancy-we have been doing tendon splitting for about two years (n=4) and the results are excellent. The technique is much better than using medial patellar desmotomy, and it is easy to perform. I think you will be happy with the long term results.
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New Member:
Twig
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 4, 2006 - 7:14 am:
Hi , thanks for these up dates.My foal may have this condition so I am very interested to see how you get on.
Any more news please ?
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Member:
Sully
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 5, 2006 - 12:11 am:
Hey Rachel....nothing but good...both horses are still in training with the older one almost ready to be shown...no more problems whatsoever!! My trainer puts me on cloud 9 when he talks about my mare...says she can really move her feet...she can get herself stopped and that he thinks she will be a "great horse" and a "super mare" when she starts showing...he is working on overcoming 1 problem she has and that is not always holding her hock to the ground and following her nose through the turn...he said she is probably 70% better than when he 1st started riding her. I asked him if he thought maybe something was stinging her in the stifle or hock and he said NO. She was not initially trained to follow her nose and reverts back to leading with her shoulder. I even found out that he rides her in the pasture and spends a lot of time with her. He said she intrigues him and that he has not had a horse for many years that has shown so much talent! She is in the top 3 of any horse he has ever ridden, and he just got done placing 2 in the world show for NCHA. Guess you know how excited that has me! The other horse which is owned by my sister, he is getting ready to start showing. This is the horse that caught a lot, and not always when going slow. He also had fallen over in training before. We always thought it was cause he stops so far under himself naturally(more than any horse I have ever seen) and that he lost his balance. I wonder now if he might have locked up and could not help himself. Hope this helps. Both horses are doing fantastic and only had to take a week off of training.
Nancy
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Member:
Sully
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 5, 2006 - 12:17 am:
Rachel...just wanted to add that this is soooo much more humane than the internal blistering which never seemed to last long and might cause arthritis for her later in her career along with the long layup time when she could not be trained. She got very sore from the internal blistering, and didn't show any soreness with this treatment!
Nancy
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New Member:
Twig
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 5, 2006 - 3:22 am:
Hi Nancy ,
Thanks for your quick reply.Can I ask at what age your horses first showed signs of having this problem ?
I have to admit the internal blistering does sound ,aaarrrgghh.My filly is a Lusitano so when she's older she will hopefully naturally take more weight onto her hinds as they are known for their collection abilities.However I doubt that I will be able to get her graded at 3 if she still has this problem.My vet seems to think it's best if we leave her well alone , but at what age would you intervene and operate.She is a very nervous girl at the moment and we can hardly get near her so the last thing I want to be doing is grabbing her and forcing her into having god knows what done to her....Am I in danger of allowing the problem to get worse if I leave it? She is on very varied turnout which include hills ect but I would say her condition is moderate all ready as it affects her stride every 3 to 4 strides?
Any advice gratefully received
Thanks
Rach
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Member:
Sully
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 5, 2006 - 3:14 pm:
Dr. O I am sure could answer you better as to the age question.My mare was considered a 4 yr old and the gelding was a 6 yr old when they had the procedure done. Both horse showed this early in their training and being conditioned did not help tighten the stifles. I do remember when the Doctor was examining them by having them move on a lounge line, that I could not tell anything was wrong and he said she was doing it on both legs every stride. He called it a momentary patella fixation. He had to show me what to look for, and then it was easy to see. When they move, you watch their hocks and its like they hesitate before the foot hits the ground. After the hesitation, its not a smooth move like the rest of the stride looks as the foot continues to the ground. Best way I know how to describe what I saw. She only stuck with her leg behind her once that I know of. The gelding would do it often coming out of his stall and would have to be backed up to release it.
Hope this helps.
Nancy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 6, 2006 - 7:16 am:
Rachel, the one risk you run is that she will become stuck and remain that way for hours and thereby damage the joint. It is not much of a risk but I have seen one this happened to. Otherwise many of these self resolve with time and waiting does not have any down sides I am aware of.
DrO
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Member:
Sully
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 - 4:09 pm:
Hello Dr.O and fellow Horseman's Advisor Addicts!!
Here is an update on the 2 horses mentioned above 1 year after surgery. The gelding has had no problems (and he seemed the worse of the two, his leg would lock up behind him right after coming out of his stall often before the surgery) The trainer has started to show him at small shows to season him and he has done very well. He is qualified for the NCHA Eastern National Championships held in Jackson in March. There is a good chance he will be campaigned for the World this year. I will keep updating you of any news.
My filly started to catch again in July, six months after surgery. I don't think she was doing it while being ridden, but in her stall. The Vet was contacted by phone and recommended hormone shots? to see if that would make any difference. It did not help. I wanted to take her back to the Vet for an evaluation, but the trainer had given up that she would ever be sound enough. I picked her up in MS and took her to CSU to have her evaluated. She had the surgery again and needed to get back into training within a few days. I was sooooo lucky to get her in with a trainer not more than a couple of hours away. It is going on 6 months now, and so far no problems. In talking with the ranch manager, he said they have had horses treated for this and have done the surgery up to 3 times before getting lasting results. I am happy that they have dealt with this before and know that if it happens again, at least she will see a Vet and get professional advice on how to proceed or not depending on an examination.
Sully
PS Dr O....I LOVE the new look of HorseAdvice!! Next time you update, could I request that along with the highlighted possible spelling errors, suggestions of how the word should be spelled would be nice!
PSS lol also wanted to mention, when they took x-rays of her hocks at CSU, they said her hocks had ACTUALLY IMPROVED from her last set 6 months earlier. She is only on 1 supplement, COULD THIS BE a result of the Cetyl M? She has juv. arthritis in the lower hock joints(?) and I was told at some point she might have to have this fused when injections no longer helped.
She has not had her hocks injected for over a year, tho CSU recommended to have it done 3 weeks after surgery. When I talk with the ranch manager, he said they have not seen any signs that she is sore but did have their Vet flex her, but no new x-rays were taken. The Vet (based on the flex tests) did not recommend hock injections. The ranch manager said he had also read an article recently that injecting the joints for maintenance reasons without a positive for pain showing up in her training or a flex test of her hocks, could cause more damage than good. In other words if she shows no soreness in training or when the Vet flexes her hock joints, not to inject her hocks just because its been a year. What are you thoughts on this Dr. O? (Should I be starting a new thread? or can you answer it here?)
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jan 19, 2007 - 6:37 am:
Sully most likely the improvement is the more natural movement of the leg now that it does not catch. Can you tell me what all is in the Cetyl M? I need the ingredients, concentration, and amounts fed daily.
DrO
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Member:
Sully
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Posted on Friday, Jan 19, 2007 - 9:51 am:
Dr O.
Here are the ingredients..
Each 2-scoop serving contains 4500 mg CM, 3000 mg glucosamine-HCl, 3000 mg MSM, 1000 mg vitamin C, plus other vital nutrients in a palatable apple and molasses-flavored base.
The above is the loading dose. Now she gets 1 scoop per day.
That makes sense too, that the more natural movement is allowing her body to repair itself.
Now I do take the human form of CM, and do think it has helped with nagging aches and pains of getting older. Most days now, my knees do not burn when I climb stairs anymore and my hands (below my thumbs close to where my wrist connects) has greatly improved. I can still make them hurt with a lot of pressure applied, but don't feel the need to protect them anymore when the grandkids grab my hands and they don't ache like they used to. Could be this product works cause I think it works, but either way I will take it to keep the aches away for a while longer 
Thank You,
Sully
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Friday, Jan 19, 2007 - 11:13 am:
Sully, As far as your second question goes. . . .
I have heard that injecting any joint has the potential to cause any where from low level irritation to joint infection, depending on how skilled the vet is or how quietly your horse stands.
I know that these days, EVERYONE injects hocks, but I still think there is a risk. So, that being said, you need to weight the risk with the potential benefit.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jan 19, 2007 - 8:41 pm:
Sully did you begin the use of CM in combination with other ingredients like described above? You can find evidence for decreased pain with its use in several poorly designed studies. As such it use is still considered questionable, run a search on cetyl myristoleate for more.
The glucosamine is probably helpful but I would prefer a mixture with chonDrOitin at higher levels than this supplement provides, see Treatments and Medications for Horses > Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) > The Joint Protective Treatments.
DrO
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Member:
Sully
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 20, 2007 - 12:26 am:
Thank You Dr O,
I am not sure I understand your question...the other ingredients are all part of the same supplement. I think they also have another product that would be a step up from this one. I just did not want to spend any more money until I know that this helps her. I am not sure if any of the ingredients are different or just higher levels. Thank you for your opinion. I appreciate it!
Sully
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 20, 2007 - 8:02 am:
I am sorry I meant the product you, personally, are taking.
DrO
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New Member:
Denise
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 20, 2007 - 1:09 pm:
Sully,
I also give Cetyl M to my arthritic horses. I love it! Within the first week they are moving more fluidly and with less pain. It is expensive but worth every penny. I have a bad shoulder myself, maybe I should start using the human version. The only down side to Cetyl M is that is seems to make loose manure in a few of the horses.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 21, 2007 - 9:49 am:
Denise, I want you to consider what are the chances that a product that has been on the market a good while, has been researched, and that clearly makes arthritic horses (or people) move better, but would not be better known? I want you to consider the thousands of products available on the market, including "magic homeopathic water" and that have horse owners make claims made about them just like your claim on Cetyl M.
In experiments with arthritic's and cetyl methistolate, improvement is not clear and of uncertain significance. Before you go broadly recommending expensive products based on personal experience I want you to read Member's Services members_only » The Lounge: Kick back and relax. » Alternative Medicine and Epistomology » DrO's Big Mistake. I make mistakes too. The other articles on that menu on alternative medicine are also worth reading.
DrO
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Member:
denise
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 21, 2007 - 1:33 pm:
Dr. O,
I am certainly not or have any intention of becoming a sales rep. for Cetyl M. I understand that many people are skeptical of alternative medicines and with just cause, due to the fact that there is so little research on the products out there. I am simply sharing with Sully that I too use the product and am very happy with it. I also believe in trying new things and keeping an open mind. I think that if it works for you, go for it. From my observation my horses with obvious arthritis in shoulders and hocks have been more comfortable whether frolicking in the paddocks or under saddle since putting them on Cetyl M. I did take them off of the product for about 2 months (my own skepticism) and found that their freedom of movement had decreased so I put them back on the product and they are in fact doing better in my opinion. Again, although it works for me, others may not have the same experience or approve of the product as I do. I don't claim to be an expert in medicine or a vet. I do believe that there are alternative medicines that really do make a difference. If I can help my horse or myself without having to put chemicals into my body or or theirs or have surgery, I am all for it. Why not give it a try? There are risks in everything we do. I do enjoy your website and think it is a wonder place to share experiences and opinions openly.You are the professional and I hold your advice in high regard. Thank you.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 21, 2007 - 9:37 pm:
That is fine Denise. I am asking you to look critically at what you have posted and by exploring our section on alternative medicine I think you will derive a new appreciation of the difference of fact and opinion. It is a fact that there are literally "millions" of such endorsements on "thousands" of equine products on the internet for all types of product. Here we look critically at evey such statement and that is as alternative as it gets.
DrO
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Member:
sully
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 21, 2007 - 11:31 pm:
Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to your question Dr. O. Ingredients as follows for human version:
Cetyl Myristoleate Fatty Acid Complex.....1500 mg
Glucosamine HCL............................750 mg
Methyl Suffonyl Methand (MSM).............,300 mg
Hyaluronic Acid.............................10 mg
other ingredients: calcium phosphate, silica, steric acid, gelatin, and water.
I do not take anything else on a regular basis except a 1 a day vit.
Sully
PS the reason I am sooooo busy all of a sudden, is after finally reading the parasite articles. I seem to be spending hours a day going around picking up the piles so they do not re-infest my horses. I would love to hear that this is not necessary! But I would probably not be able to stop. I worry that my older horse is going to trip on a frozen pile and be hurt.
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Member:
sully
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 21, 2007 - 11:44 pm:
Shelley,
That is kind of what he said, that it causes damage even if done correctly?
Denise,
I feel like it does help me personally, but my 18 yr old mare has now been on it for 3 months, and I just don't see the results I was hoping for with her. She is arthritic in the front and I can't say that it has gotten better  She is not down right crippled, but seems ouchy and does not move real fast. Mostly walks...sometimes trots, but I have rarely seen her canter even when the younger ones are running like lunatics. She also has this weird habit of standing with her body up next to the tire feeder. First time I saw her, I thought she had her front legs in the feeder. She stands with her front and back feet right next to the feeder so that her belly is over the edge. I am not sure it this means anything or not. She is not leaning on the feeder and does not seem to have her legs stretched out to relieve pressure. Just seems weird that she does this a lot now that I have them in her pen. Anyone have any ideas about why I would sure like to hear them.
Sully
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jan 22, 2007 - 7:48 am:
Concerning the side issue of hock injections, this is one of the strangest things I have seen in awhile: about 5 years ago clients expecting to get their perfectly sound horses hocks injected with HA apparently because everyone is doing it. There is not a shred of evidence this is beneficial and yes, the potential for harm great. On the other hand, when there is inflammation in the joint, I think the benefit far outweighs the risk.
Concerning your human product it does contain ingredients that have we believe helpful but neither the CM nor the MSM are clearly one of them. Find a good glucosamine / chonDrOitin / hyaluronate product and I think you will be just as happy. There is a small pilot study suggesting MSM may be helpful with pain but not flexibility so I not convinced yet however that test was done with 10 times the dosage you are giving above. For recommended dosages for your horses see, Treatments and Medications for Horses » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » The Joint Protective Treatments.
Lastly, if your fecal float tests are clean picking up stools is less important but if there are a lot of stools in a small area that the horses are concentrated in, it makes good sense, whether the fecals look good or not.
DrO
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Member:
sully
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 1:13 am:
Thank you Dr O
I will follow that thread for my mare and check into the human product you recommended
The fecals were clean, but small area like you said. At least in the winter time I throw the hay, so can control pretty much where the piles will end up!
Sully
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