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  Discussion on Can carrots cause impaction colic???
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Member:
Nonie

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 - 6:32 pm:

A woman at a barn where I used to board had her 11 year old TB colic the other day, and when he was tubed, lots of pieces of carrot came up in the reflux. The vet (a very experienced man who has been in practice for years) said he had never seen a case where carrots could cause an obstruction, but that they were not easy to digest and even a chopped up small piece could get lodged in the small intestine and block it. No one at that barn is feeding their horses carrots anymore. Dr. O and others, what are your thoughts/experience on this?
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 - 8:54 pm:

I've known of people giving their horses whole TRUCKLOADS of carrots without a problem (unless they were turning moldy)! Some of these people believe this helps push sand through the gut, though I've never personally used it as a sanding method. I give my horses plenty of organic carrots as treats with no problems, and think how they handle it depends upon whether their system is accustomed to carrots as a part of their diet. I HAVE been considering cutting down and giving more T & A cubs instead, wondering if the carrots contain too many carbs or sugar. With 3 horses I have a rather large carrot bill!
Member:
Shirl

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 - 10:52 pm:

HI Vicki,
I can only tell you of my experience and those of others that have horses with Insulin Resistance and Cushings. Carrots and apples, anything full of glucose and sugar are big no, nos. I was shocked out of my shoes when my vet told me carrots have more sugar than apples! I had to gradually lower the amount of treats Sierra got until she was down to one tiny slice to put her Pergolide capsule in. I substituted low fat/calorie pellets for treats, and she loved them. She was diagnosed Cushings and I.R. at 20. Passed at 23 from Laminitis, coffin bone sunk. Best of luck, Shirl
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 - 7:10 am:

The reflux from the stomach is not representative of what is causing an intestinal impaction Zoe. It represents what the horse ate in the last few hours. Are you sure this was not a choke, an esophageal obstruction, where the reflux is representative of the obstruction. To answer your question directly, carrots do not carry any increased risk of intestinal impaction.
DrO
Member:
Nonie

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 - 7:21 am:

I have to go look up "choke," Dr. O, thanks. I heard the information third-hand, so it's possible that was the diagnosis. It makes sense.

Zoe
Member:
Nonie

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 - 10:22 am:

Some further info:

My friend who was there emailed me this clarification when I asked her if it could have been choke:

no, definitely wasn’t that...they tubed him 2 times before taking him in and then several more times during the night. When they got the tube down and were getting the fluid out of his stomach, apparently that’s where he found a large amount of carrot, but not necessarily big pieces, in fact the pieces could only be as large as the tube, right?

Just a really strange situation, I guess.

Zoe
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 - 11:05 am:

Thanks Shirl -- I am going to stop feeding all those carrots and find a lower sugar/calorie treat.
Member:
Shirl

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 - 11:36 am:

Vicki, I don't mean to scare you, but I used to feed carrots to Sierra by the bag full, being ignorant about it. Once you've experienced what can happen, it scares the devil out of you. If I ever get another horse, non-carb stuff will be the treats. Sierra did learn to like celery and of course the low carb pellets. Your horses may never be bothered, just wanted you to know what can happen. Take good care.
Shirl
Member:
Cpacer

Posted on Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 - 9:33 am:

Just for clarification, carrots would only be considered harmful if your horse is affected by above mentioned ailments (Insulin Resistance and Cushings), correct?

btw, my horse is prone to choking on pellets but has never (knock-on-wood) had an issue with the many carrots I feed him.
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 - 10:59 am:

Just as humans are inclined to develop type 2 diabetes if they eat too much sweet stuff, I suspect as horses age they may have a similar tendency. I heard a very interesting veterinarian (Karen E.N. Hayes, D.V.M., M.S.) speak at an equestrian event last year who has a book called "Help Your Horse Live a Good Long Life." I never heard her single carrots out but she does seem to believe that as horses age they are prone to develop insulin resistance. She suggests annual blood tests starting at 10 years of age to test three things: Complete blood count (CBC), "Chem screen," and serum insulin test. If there are signs of insulin resistance, she believes in a low carb type diet.
Member:
Cpacer

Posted on Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 - 11:12 am:

What about the molasses in sweet feed? Is that something that could be harmful in the long run? What about for their teeth, does it cause cavities? Does hay kind of brush their teeth?
Member:
Shirl

Posted on Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 - 12:17 pm:

CP, Yes it could in the long haul. I'm not sure about the cavities, but Dr. O will chime in. You will find a lot of info regarding I.R./Cushings in the Equine Diseases file. Had I known some of the information prior to the fact, Sierra may have avoided I.R. altogether. Often times I.R. and Cushings go hand in hand. Low carb pellets and rinsed hay was recommended to me when she was diagnosed. Shirl
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 - 5:29 pm:

cp,

I switched from a sweet feed with molasses, to
Safe Choice by Nutrena and I am very happy with it even without thinking about cavaties, cushings, etc. Calmer horses, nice sheen to their coats, nice weight.

Perhaps you could start a new thread with your question? I'd like to hear from others about the molasses vs no molasses issues myself. And give DrO a chance to expand on your questions also.

Just a thought.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 20, 2006 - 9:45 pm:

Though molasses based feeds have been fed a long time cavities are a rarity in horses. And it certainly should be avoided in IR horses along with carrots but how much of a problem it actually is remains uncertain.

Without clinical signs of Cushings, IR, or any other disease I don't suggest yearly blood work as suggested above, after all if the horse is healthy why treat the blood work?
DrO
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Saturday, Jan 21, 2006 - 8:59 am:

Dr. O,
You're so funny sometimes...

I have an IR horse, and just tested for cushings, results out still. It's a terrible thing not giving carrots, you just associate horses, and carrots. LOL I know its a human thing. and no sugar... ever again...

One thing above confused me. It said they tubed the horse repeatedly in a very short time. "they tubed him 2 times before taking him in and then several more times during the night. "

to me this does not sound normal. Once a horse is tubed and stomach contents are removed (which is usually a bile or just a liquid) why then go back and do it again. But in a choke horse, would that help? does a horse keep creating the reflux even if there is no food in the stomach?
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Jan 21, 2006 - 11:04 am:

Obviously the idea is to practice preventative medicine before a condition progresses, and ward off problems before signs of damage are already apparent -- such as fallen top line or worse. Doesn't IR slowly cause damage to every part of the body? Certainly if a horse owner can afford blood work (which I realize many cannot) at any given age they may wish to opt for it. And when money spent up front saves a lot of money (and improves quantity, but first of all QUALITY of life), that is excellent.
Member:
Shirl

Posted on Saturday, Jan 21, 2006 - 11:32 am:

Vicki, I agree. If I'd had blood tests done when my former Vet kept saying, "Well, she doesn't look like she has Cushings", I'd have saved a bunch and she'd have had the care she needed sooner. Sierra didn't "look like she had Cushings". Beautiful shiny coat till the day she died, but had the fatty pads, frequent urination and was an extremely easier keeper. She ended up with both Cushings and I.R.
Wishing you the best, Shirl
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Jan 21, 2006 - 11:14 pm:

You cannot make a lot of assumptions about the above post JOJ because it is not first hand there are assuredly lots of incomplete information. But to answer your question directly if the small bowel where obstructed the stomach can fill very rapidly with fluid and gas requiring frequent tubing. Chokes sometimes require hours of tubing to get the food bolus to break down, both could fit the scenerio above.

Unlike diabetes in humans we do not see problems with the other tissues of the body with IR, the problems are those associated with obesity and founder. Often the IR is secondary to other diseases which do cause other problems like we see in the Cushings horse.
DrO
Member:
Shirl

Posted on Saturday, Jan 21, 2006 - 11:32 pm:

Dr.O.
What isn't first hand? It was my horse, my vet.
Shirley
Member:
Nonie

Posted on Sunday, Jan 22, 2006 - 8:45 am:

No Shirley, Dr. O was referring to my original post when he mentioned "the above post," where I talked about how the horse had been tubed twice, and indeed he is correct, it is NOT a first-hand report, as I only heard the details from my friend who was there.

Thanks for the info, Dr. O, and for clearing this up. The horse seems to be doing well, and none of the other horses at the barn are getting carrots anymore. :-(

I'm just glad he is okay. He has had a slew of problems in the last couple of years and his poor owner is pretty much beside herself.

Zoe
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Sunday, Jan 22, 2006 - 8:56 am:

thanks for clarifying. I learn something new all the time here.

joj
Member:
Shirl

Posted on Sunday, Jan 22, 2006 - 1:36 pm:

Dr. O, I apolgize for my hasty/snide remark. Yesterday wasn't a good day, Fibromyalgia kicking in - poor excuse, but hopefully you'll accept my 'sorries'.
Zoe, thanks for setting me straight. Thanks again,
Shirl
Member:
Kami

Posted on Sunday, Jan 22, 2006 - 10:41 pm:

On the IR topic (this is a conveluded thread), I'm dealing with foundered horses and have read there is evidence that cinnamon has a good effect on keeping insulin levels from spiking in humans. I've seen it recommended for IR horses (probably based on the human results).

I think this might be a harmless preventative measure for easy keeper or high risk horses.

The recommended dose I found was 4 tsp/1000lb, but I can't find the source now. But it isn't excessive and I haven't found anything to say cinnamon is dangerous for horses.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jan 23, 2006 - 8:13 am:

Hello Kami,
There does seem to be no doubt that cinnamon has beneficial effects in humans and rats with insulin resistance. Though the science shows significant effects we are not sure these effects are significant medically and the safety has not been evaluated. Best response in humans was seen at 200 mg/kg which for the average horse would be a dose of 90 grams or a little more than 1/5 lb daily. One correction to Kami's comments is that the cinnamon does not lower insulin levels but actually causes them to increase and that is one reason for the better glucose control.
DrO
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