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Discussion on Couging during exercise only
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New Member:
Peehead
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Posted on Monday, Jan 23, 2006 - 9:39 am:
Dr. O
I've found the right place! Thanks for the direction.
I am in the Las Vegas Nevada area, the ground he is on is blow dirt, powdery and dry, no vegetation although he keeps looking  When I first brought him home he had a photosensitivity problem while being fed alfalfa/grass mix. He now only gets timothy/orchard grass... NO ALFALFA, has been on this diet since October. He is on a supplement called Revolution which contains the product "Restore", recommended by my local veterinarian as a daily maintenance. The cough started when I moved him from one stable to the more dry dusty stable. I've read the information on COPD and it emphasizes moldy hay and mold spores in which he has not been been exposed. I am aware of a desert fungus and a condition called "Valley fever" in canines, perhaps I should consult with a local vet regarding the possibility of equine infection?
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, Jan 23, 2006 - 11:30 am:
Lisa, I'm just a few hrs. north of you in Cedar City. I've friends that moved here from L.V. area and they speak about a "valley Fever" in horses.
I know some areas down there have an almost talcum powder like dust. If a horse puts his nose to the ground it will surely make him cough. Is your horse being fed on the ground? If so, maybe you could make him some kind of feeder that would hold all the bits and pieces so he doesn't try and eat the "crumbs" off the ground. This might help. Another idea might be to get him a couple of stall mats to put under the area where he is fed.
Even where we are when it's really dry our clay dirt gets really fine and makes everyone's eyes water and noses run when the wind blows, including mine, and makes the horses cough if they put their noses in it.
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New Member:
Peehead
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Posted on Monday, Jan 23, 2006 - 12:44 pm:
Sara,
I brought Buckwheat home from Parawon and I am often in Cedar City to visit family.
Regarding his feedings, yes he has a feeder and yes he has stall mats. He was being turned out daily into a large round pen where the blow dirt (powder like) was heavy. I've reduced his turn outs and sweep his mats daily. Will be covering half of his 15' x 30' stall with mats as money permits, right now he has two mats directly under his feeder. I've also tried using a large, deep feeding bin but he still manages to throw it all over the place.
Thanks for the advice, I'll do more research regarding valley fever.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, Jan 23, 2006 - 3:11 pm:
Parowan? I know lots of people there. I used to help put on the Summer Games yrs. ago. Come by sometime when you're in the area again. Just email and I'll give you the phone number.
Sorry I'm not more help with the dust and coughing.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 25, 2006 - 10:48 am:
I don't doubt regular dust will make a horse sneeze if he sticks his nose in it but a chronic cough is not common. I think the fact that he started when moved to a new barn is significant however. Lisa, how long has your horse been coughing and are there other symptoms or fever? If not, see the article on the same menu as the COPD article entitled Equine Diseases » Respiratory System » Chronic Cough Without Fever.
DrO
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New Member:
Peehead
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Posted on Friday, Jan 27, 2006 - 1:47 pm:
DrO
Actually, I have read the articles you have referenced within this website, I did it before my very first post. I have also read many more articles found over the internet and I have reviewed the relevant chapters within a book I keep at home. I have read about roaring, asthma, allergies, COPD (heaves), IAD, Rhinopneumitis, and pulmonary hemorrhage. Aside from these things I have researched Coccidioidomycosis, a fungus found in the upper crust of dirt which has caused "Valley Fever" among human, canine and equine populations in Arizona and Southern California.
Buckwheat, my goofy gelding, presents with no other symptoms. The coughing started approximately 1 1/2 month ago and he coughs when you ask him to work. The coughing is sometimes dry but other times there is mucous production and what seems to be upper bronchial constriction (slightly audible wheezing). He eventually works through it and we can then continue our ride. He never coughs while standing around and he never coughs on trail rides. And, most interestingly, he did not cough at all during our last work out???? At this time I don't know if I consider his cough chronic?
Since my last post I have consulted by phone with two very well respected veterinarians in the area and they both suggest that it is our blow dirt, stating that they have several cases in the area and have encourage dust control measures. One veterinarian suggested an occasional steroid treatment for the swelling if the problem persists. He also stated that there has not been a single case of equine Valley Fever within the southern nevada area leading the equine medical community to believe that the fungus does not exist in the area considering the rapid growth and constant churning of dirt in the valley due to construction.
I too find it significant that the problem started when he was moved. The grass supplier has remained the same and he was literally moved across the street. The only significant change for him has been the very dusty environment, the blow dirt, which is like talcum power. With every step the blow dirt will poof up around your ankles. Buckwheat constantly has his nose in it looking for more to eat and his nostrils are constantly caked with the blow dirt. To make matters worse across the street the dirt is constantly being churned due to a 500 tract home project that is being constructed. The entire area is continually coated with a layer of powdery dust. Buckwheat is in an open 15' x 30' stall with only a shade cover, he stands in the wind with little protection.
After much consideration, conversation and research I am of the opinion that Buckwheat's airway structures are being irritated by the dusty environment causing inflammation and constriction. I also believe that without intervention this could lead to the more serious COPD conditions. My plan of action will be to make huge efforts to limit his exposure to the dust and possibly administer the suggested steroid by my local vet to reduce swelling. Do you think I should do anything else?
Lisa in Las Vegas
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jan 27, 2006 - 6:10 pm:
That's fine Lisa. But I still have questions. Does every horse in Las Vegas cough since they all are exposed to this dust? And if not how do these vets, who have not examined your horse, know what the cause is? Do they believe this is the only cause of cough without fever? How did you rule out mild URT infection or mold spores in the hay?
Being moved lowers his resistance and exposes your horse to new infections so it is common for horses who come into new barns to develop transient coughs. Also moving your horse exposes him to different management factors including hay that may be less than optimum. I cannot be sure these vets are wrong but I can be sure they cannot be sure. It strikes me as odd that if this dust is producing these symptoms by nature of irritation that every horse does not cough like you might see when horses are in a very dusty closed arena.
Steroids for bronchial irritation from any cause other than ongoing infection will help but I would like you to be sure the hay is not dusty as the consequences of ignoring this could lead to permanent allergy problems and the steroids may cover up the problem. I know you say you have read it but just to cover the bases there is a link to the article on COPD in the article I referenced above. It also discusses steroid use for lower airway irritation.
DrO
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Member:
Peehead
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Posted on Monday, Jan 30, 2006 - 3:50 pm:
Dr. O
I came to my decision by way of many different avenues including a long phone conversations with a local vet where much information was exchanged. I did not include all information associated with my conclusion and plan of action in my last post. Nor did I mean to imply that I had Buckwheat's problem all figured out? I really don't think I do, and I am open to anyone's thoughts.... that is why I ended my last post with a request for your further recommendation.
I will do my best to answer your questions.
Regarding your dust related questions. No every horse in Las Vegas does not cough, I have made this assumption only because I have friends whose horses do not cough, not because I am familiar with every horse in Las Vegas. I cannot confirm, however, I suspect that not all horses in Las Vegas are being kept in the same environment as Buckwheat. Although the entire valley has serious dust pollution and health associated problems, not all of the ground is the same. Many people improve their properties with custom landscape. Often people will import a better quality dirt to fill their stalls and arenas. I live in a tract home where roads are paved and lots are required to be landscaped. In my immediate neighborhood the only dust we are exposed to is that which is in the valley's overall air quality. On the other hand a mile away on the property where I keep Buckwheat no improvements have been made in the stall and turnout area, the natural crust has been destroyed and he is exposed to the talcum like dust that puffs up around him with every step. He lived in it 24/7 for 1 month and 2 weeks until I implemented dust control measures approximately 2 weeks ago.
Once again, I did not mean to imply that the veterinarians have made a dust associated diagnosis. It is more of an educated guess based on deductive reasoning after a long conversation and their familiarity with the area and local trends. This is my explanation, not theirs. I very seriously doubt that they believe dust is the only cause of a nonfebrile cough.
How did I rule out mild URT?
I have not ruled out URT. My understanding of URT is that it is viral in nature and may or may not have a vaccine. Once contracted it will run it's course and either get better or worse. It can lead to other complications including bacterial infections that can be treated with antibiotics, however, antibiotics for a viral infection are ineffective. Positive diagnosis of these diseases are often academic but could involve lengthy laboratory serological analysis? Even with a positive diagnosis treatment is usually directed at the symptoms and not necessarily the disease? I suppose we decided that it was less likely to be URT based on history? How do you suggest I rule out URT?
How did I rule out mold spores in the hay?
I have not ruled out mold spores in the hay. Once again it is one of those likelihood situations. The hay appears to be clean when observed with the naked eye. I have not taken a microscope to it and even if I did I wouldn't know what mold spores looked like. Below is a picture of the hay that have I tried to attach but I'm not a computer whiz either.
[URL=https://img296.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jan060777eq.jpg][IMG]https://img296.imageshack.us/img296/3712/jan060777eq.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
I will say that his hay appears dusty and when I started the dust control measures we started wetting his hay. However, I would like to positively rule out mold spores, can you explain how?
I will now try to address your statements regarding his move.
Buckwheat was in a "barn" (backyard) with three other horses in open shaded stalls. None of which were ill when I moved. He was moved across the street to another friend's backyard open shaded stall where there is only one other horse who appears to be healthy. Management factors have remained the same since I make those decisions. I purchase my own hay and have since I bought Buckwheat. I have been using the same supplier but I do realize that each load can be different nor do I claim to be an expert in recognizing hay quality. Which brings me back to the naked eye comment. Besides inspecting the hay what else can I do to ensure it is good?
Regarding the steroids. I do not plan on using steroid therapy, I prefer to identify the cause and eliminate it. I have started with dust control measures and frankly, he seems to be improving with 3 days of no coughing. But then again maybe he is just getting over an URT?
Finally, I would like to state that I am a person in seek of knowledge, not debate. I hope I have answered your questions with enough information for you to provide guidance, that is, if that's what you do? I am sincerely interested in knowing what else a professional like yourself thinks I should be doing? Thanks again for your interest in my situation.
Lisa
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 - 9:16 am:
Hello Lisa,
after 3 days of no coughing, my advice is for you to keep doing what you are doing. Often when you are not sure of what is going on, the best plan is review your management (as recommended in the references in my earlier posts), correct management problems (as you have partially done but I recommend more) and then watch what happens. Most often horses cure themselves if you just don't get in the way.
There is no easy way to rule in the dusty (mold spores?) hay as the cause of the cough. But dusty hay should never be tolerated as a management decision. It should not be fed and wetting has only limited effect as explained in Equine Diseases » Respiratory System » Heaves & Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease. Maybe it is enough for now but will not be over the long run. Careful inspection as described in the article should be enough to determine its suitability if your horse has not yet developed an allergy to mold spores.
Unless you believe that I should take every statement you make as absolute gospel truth, debate is an important component to knowledge. Debate has led me to significant information about your horses condition and possible management shortfalls: that is the wetting of the hay. As I review the above I see me asking questions and making suggestions with you debating the significance of my input.
Perhaps this misunderstanding occurs because you do understand what we do here. Since we cannot exam your horse we cannot diagnose and treat him. We can educate you about horse health issues so that you can make better observations and decisions. Looking at this discussion over all I think we have succeeded.
DrO
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Member:
Peehead
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 - 5:05 pm:
Dr.O
Once again, I appreciate your attention to my issue. Just to make sure, I have read the article you referenced again and considered it's advice and have more questions.
If it is true that all hay has some mold then I suppose I should consider mold spores even though the grass is free of any obvious signs?
How long does it take to develop a mold spore allergy? The reason I ask is because Buckwheat was eating the same hay for at least two months prior to starting to cough.
Prior to the change to Timothy/Orchard grass he had a photosensitivity reaction to alfalfa (or something mixed in with the alfalfa?) Is this significant when considering a possible allergic response that may be causing his cough?
Could dust be the culprit? It is the only change in his keeping just prior to him starting to cough.
I'm at work, gotta go. I'll check in later.
Lisa
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 1, 2006 - 7:49 am:
All hay that is dried by laying in the field and put up by baling has some mold spores. The important question is how much.
These mold spores are very antigenic, and experience teaches us that when exposed to levels of spores that are easily detectable with your nose and eyes that many horses will in time develop Heaves. Experience teaches us that the large majority of horses when exposed to levels below that easily detectable with your eyes and nose will not develop allergies. But allergies are an overreaction of the horses immune system so are very individual things. Every horse is different in the amount of time it takes: some days, some years. When you say dust it depends on what you mean, common dirt is a little too large to get past the defensive barriers of the URT, but if you mean the dust composed of mold spores it happens all the time.
DrO
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