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Discussion on Hind end weakness along with ringbone
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 8, 2006 - 6:17 pm:
Dr. O. - A little over a month ago our 14 yr. old gelding was standing and walking like he had laminitis. He was x-rayed and diagnosed with ringbone on his right front, and just slightly beginning on his left front. Since that time he has been on bute, usually 2x/day, plus ChonDrOitin sulfate, glucosamine, EsterC, msm, and yucca. He also gets a daily multivitamin which has Vit E and selenium (2.4mg/day) (Our vet suggested he should have the selenium at a previous vet visit.)
Two years ago this gelding was ill with what was then thought to be hairy allisium poisoning. He contracted laminitis at that time, and had another episode about 6 mos later. It seems he hasn't really been healthy since then. He was diagnosed as pre-Cushings, and is getting only grass hay with some beet pulp which has his additives and meds. mixed in it.
He is reluctant to move and very stiff when he moves and walks like he has laminitis, but has no heat, rapid digital pulse, or tenderness in his feet. This morning I noticed he seemed very weak in his rear legs and hips, and maybe a little uncoordinated in the rear. He seemed to be extra careful as to where he placed his feet when he did move.
He has another appointment with our vet tomorrow afternoon. Do you have suggestions as to what to test for, types of tests, ideas as to what could be wrong with him, etc.? I have a hard time believing that all of this is from ringbone.
I spoke with our vet over the phone the end of last week and he felt it was just the ringbone and said that it could be very painful. He felt the gelding's prognosis was poor, and as much as said I needed to mentally toughen up and resign myself to putting the horse down as he would never be useful again. This was before the problems with his rear end. I don't want the horse living in constant pain, but I do want to be sure I know what is going on with him and know that I have done everything possible to help him, so any suggestions will be appreciated.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 8, 2006 - 6:44 pm:
First of all, many ((((Hugs))) to you, I'm so sorry you're dealing with this.
Second, I know you know (because you've told me  ) that if a horses' foot hurts it could cause pain all over his body.
Have you tried massage? joint injections? Sometimes, if you can get the joint lubed it may help. You may have to go to adequan though to keep it up.
My personal opinion on the tests. Make him test for magnesium levels and if he hasn't been blood tested before, also test for selenium. These I suggest only from personal experience...it may not have a thing to do with your horse. But my horse was experiencing very tight muscles and was very stiff. Tested for magnesium (after he had been on a double does of magnesium supplement for two weeks) and he was below normal. To this day, he is still on the supplement and he does now have a normal magnesium level...and you can tell. He's looser, moves free-er. He'll get tested again in the spring to keep him monitored.
I hope you can figure this out Sara...these comments are strictly from my personal experience.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 8, 2006 - 7:35 pm:
Thanks for your thoughts, and good wishes, Aileen.
Blood work about a year ago showed him low in selenium. (which puzzles me, as none of our other horses has had this show up.) I did ask the vet about joint injections and he said he'd try anything I wanted him to try. My thought was to get some more x-rays and maybe blood tests, and to try adequan or Legend then Adequan. The way he was moving this morning just made it hard to believe that it was all due to ringbone. Now this evening, once he gets going, he's moving quite a bit better than this a.m. This a.m. he seemed uncoordinated and wobbly with his rear legs, as well as generally stiff. this evening he's just generally stiff moving.
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 9, 2006 - 1:15 am:
Sara, I'm so sorry...14 is so young. I can understand why you want to dig deeper. I would. I am a bit unsettled by your vet saying that he'd try anything you wanted him to try...after all, you are the layman who is paying him for his guidance....I don't see much guidance in that statement. Is he telling you he is out of ideas?
Do you have a college near you where you could get a complete diagnostic work up?
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 9, 2006 - 9:41 am:
The closest would be CSU which is probably 8 hrs. away. I'll see how this afternoon's appointment goes and go from there. There is a very good clinic down in S. Calif. that I've been to in the past for surgery; I may call them depending on what the vet says today.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 9, 2006 - 9:49 am:
Sara, from your description I think you are right and your horse has a low grade founder or possibly tying up. He may have ringbone too. Ringbone by itself looks like lameness in one foot, unless there is bilateral ringbone, a very rare condition.
If the vet needs proof of bilateral lameness you should have him block the foot with the ringbone (above the ringbone) and if the horse goes sound you should listen to him. If then there is lameness on the other side you should have convinced him. BE CAUTIOUS, the horse should not move around a lot with a blocked foot that is foundering because of the potential damage to be done. If the block does not fix anything again I think you ought to test for tying up as described in the article.
If you cannot get a satisfactory explanation you should have a second opinion done.
DrO
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 9, 2006 - 10:14 am:
Thanks, Dr. O. I'll read that article on tying up again. Just read it last night, but want to know what I'm talking about. I hope we can save this guy. I could care less about whether or not I can ride him again. He was a pre-mature foal that I slept with for a week so I could feed him every 20 mins. I'm very attached to him - hard luck case that he is.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 9, 2006 - 10:50 am:
Oh Sara...I'm sending positive and healing thoughts to you and your boy.
Where is the ringbone, is it in the joint? Can you put xrays on line?
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 9, 2006 - 11:32 am:
Thank you for your thoughts, Aileen.
The ringbone is in his right ankle area, if I remember right. I'll try and get his x-ray from the vet's office and then try to post it. He said it was just starting on his left front, although it was hard to discern on the x-ray.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 9, 2006 - 12:51 pm:
(((Hugs))) from me too Sara, and best of luck in finding answers.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 9, 2006 - 11:09 pm:
Well, now vet says he has foundered again and that he is putting so much weight on his hind legs they are getting sore, thus the weakness and slow movement in the rear. He took x-rays of both feet this time, and there has been very little rotation. I left the x-rays there so my farrier can look at them and confer with the vet tomorrow morning.
Our vet was very negative about the entire situation. Previously he said Little Bit was pre-Cushings/metabolic synDrOme. Today he says he is Cushings. He seems to think, from what I gathered, that it is all the same. He didn't do any blood work today at all. From what I've read here and other places, I'm not sure about the Cushings without a blood test.
I asked about giving him Pergolide(sp?) and vet was pretty negative about that, too. He said he's never had anyone try it because of the cost. He called a vet in one of the big clinics up north and asked him about it, and that vet said he has 4 people with their horses on it, but he doesn't think it's really made much difference. My vet is still telling me I will need to put Little Bit down.
At this point, knowing he is foundering, I thought it best to treat the founder first and see if we can't get him comfortable. If we can do that, then I will pursue the Cushings more. It seems to me the founder is the most pressing as that is what is hurting.
I'm sort of confused and a bit bummed; I don't know if it's a lack of communication or if I'm just thick headed, but I got no indication from the vet before that founder was a problem at this point and instead understood from him that the ringbone was causing all the pain.
I've put Little Bit on 3gr. bute/day plus all the other stuff until farrier comes. I hope his stomach holds up. He is, and has been, in a stall with rubber mats and about 8" shavings. I have his door open during the day so he can visit with his buddy and go out in the sun if he wants.
In our vet's defense, most of the people around here seem to want to do what is cheapest, and don't want to spend money on a horse they won't be able to ride. I think that the vet has gotten into the habit of approaching everything from that angle.
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Member:
Lilly
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 9, 2006 - 11:27 pm:
Wow Sara! Your last paragraph could describe my local vet! Ann
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Friday, Feb 10, 2006 - 12:14 am:
btw-thanks for the hugs, Angie.
Ann - I hate to sound critical of the man. He really is a good man, way overworked, and fights an "up hill" battle with a lot of the folks around here. He saved this same horse when he was 6 mos. old by doing surgery on his leg in the middle of the night on a Sunday right after we moved here. He didn't know me from Adam then.
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Friday, Feb 10, 2006 - 12:15 am:
Sara, there are places to get Pergolide that are very inexpensive. Been there done that, and as other members have said: Just my experience - it does do a lot of good! Your vet is not up to date. No matter he is trying to do the best with the experience/knowledge he has. A LOT of vets don't think it's worthwhile to treat Cushing's horses because they do not realize there are cheaper places for their clients to get it. Hang in there, we're all hoping for the best. Shirl
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Feb 10, 2006 - 8:05 am:
I don't know Sara, 14 is a bit young for Cushings, do you have other symptoms of Cushings or is this horse fat?
DrO
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Friday, Feb 10, 2006 - 10:20 am:
Hi Sara, it sounds like this vet is trying...but for your sanity, I say to get a third *fresh* opinion (Dr. O being your second opinion )
Big (((hugs))) to you and Little Bit.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Friday, Feb 10, 2006 - 10:54 am:
Yes, this horse has a tendency to be fat. He is beyond "easy keeper." I had him on a very strict diet and no pasture at all ever since he was so ill a couple of years ago. However, during the time I was unable to make it to the barn due to my ankle, he was over fed, although the feeders did stick to only grass hay for him. He tends to have a cresty neck, and packs the fat along the top line, but although you can feel his ribs, you can't see their outline. He does have a "tummy" too. He gets a very long winter coat, but he does shed out in the spring. Last spring, however, he shed out before he had new hair along his shoulders and looked pretty strange until hair grew in. He was doing very good over the summer and I was riding him up until I broke my ankle. He looked good and felt good at that time.
He looks like he didn't lie down at all last night,although he usually does. He has an excellent appetite still, his eyes are bright, but he seems a little depressed this a.m. as he didn't whinny at me like he usually does.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 11, 2006 - 12:05 am:
Dr. O - I took some pictures this evening and I'll try and get one of them posted tonight.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 11, 2006 - 10:13 am:
I believe your horse is suffering from Metabolic SynDrOme Sara, see Equine Diseases » Endocrine Disorders » Equine Metabolic SynDrOme (Peripheral Cushings). Be sure to follow the links to the articles of founder and obesity too.
DrO
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 11, 2006 - 10:45 am:
Well, that was what I was thinking, too, but it's hard to disagree with the vet when I've never been to med. school, just read a lot. I have not only read the articles, but have printed them out.
I tried half the night to get a picture up, but will have to wait until later today when I am in the office and have my "real" computer. I don't seem to be able to shrink the picture with the program I have on this little one.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 11, 2006 - 10:50 am:
Neither condition (Metabolic SynDrOme nor Cushings) causes pain, does it? All pain would be from founder and ringbone?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 11, 2006 - 11:04 am:
EMS is not painful itself but greatly increases the risk of founder.
DrO
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 11, 2006 - 1:29 pm:
o.k. here's a try at a picture
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 11, 2006 - 7:01 pm:
The point is not to argue per-se but to try and understand why your vet thinks what they think. Having the facts available gives you points to discuss.
It is just a snapshot in time but the slightly rocked back appearance suggest founder, is this just this photo or a typical stance?
DrO
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 11, 2006 - 7:35 pm:
No, currently this is a typical stance. He also keeps resting his left rear. Vet at last visit says he has active founder right now, but there has been no more rotation than occurred when he last had founder, which was when he was sick.
As you can see, he's pretty "pudgy" He is small and short backed, which doesn't help. My thinking was that if we could deal with the founder, and get his weight back under control, he'd be relatively o.k. He's feeling better today, moving around quite a bit more and moving better.
Why don't supplement makers make supplements in the right proportions? I have given up finding one, or even two combined that have the right ratios of minerals, vitamins, etc. and am having to combine several different things. Pain in the neck!
Looking at him, do you still think he is EMS and not Cushings?
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2006 - 3:11 am:
Sara, your vet scares me. And your gelding looks just like my Cushings QH mare ( well, minus just the one um, part ). She's 14.2, short backed, and round...but NOT fat...anymore. Once we bought our farm, and got her home, we got the weight off. Despite that fact, she foundered on fall pasture. I know it's rich, but her grazing was really restricted to keep the weight down. Long story short: Vet said she didn't LOOK like she had Cushings, so first we treated her for Thrush, then abscesses, arthritis, injected joints, blockings for lameness exams, nerving ( for navicular ) discussed, Legend, supplements, Adequan...finally, we pulled her shoes and x-rayed. Compared to her x-rays in the nineties and the late eighties, her Navicular hadn't changed ( luckily, there was no rotation from untreated founder ). She was tested, she WAS Cushings, and she was put on Pergolide. YES, it was expensive. But, in about 2 wks., her eyes were brighter. She moved around more, and began to be "interested" in life again. In three months, it was night and day. The following summer, her shedding was almost normal. She began to backslide last fall, and her dosage was increased : She's coming along fine now. She's pretty sound now, Navicular and all, and not even a hint of founder. If her Pergolide doesn't work well, it's having one heck of a placebo effect.
I've found that after 10 years, I've cut out all her supplements ( Cosequin, Hyaluron, B vitamins, C, E and Selenium etc. etc. etc.) and switched to Safe Choice and Farriers Formula. They seem to touch all the bases. That saves money too. Her appearance, attitude, and health are all better than they've been in years. I would be inclined to say that if the Pergolide isn't working for someone, then the diagnosis may be what is at fault, not the medicine.
Expensive? Yes. But then, the 17 year old, deaf, arthritic, periodontal disease ridden dog is on Rimadyl and Baytril and gets her teeth cleaned every three months. She may be slow, but she's still the delirious brainless airhead she always was and can run circles around dogs half her age.
Your horse certainly doesn't look like he's at the end of the line. And, aside from x-rays, what diagnostic tests has the vet run that leads him to believe the horse might be at the end of his useful life?
I think I remember the hoary allysium event. Did he receive any steroid treatment then?
Anyway, Sara, get the weight down first, like Dr.O says. In the face of a lack of any substantive diagnosis, this is a step you can take that can only help him, whether he's got founder, sidebone, or EMS.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2006 - 10:22 am:
There is nothing in the photo that makes me lean one way or the other Sara so I stick with my earlier statements. The problem is there are no 2 horses that need the exact same type supplementation. We cover mineral and vitamins in our Overview of Nutrition that seems sensible and easy.
DrO
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2006 - 11:56 am:
Dr. O - thank you so much for your advice. I've read and reread and taken notes on all the pertinent articles to try and further educate myself (and to remember!) I agree his weight is his main issue, and we are working on it. It's hard when he can't be worked. I need to get our hay tested. I've cut back on his hay (grass) and am giving him a little more beetpulp with supplements. I've increased the GL & CS and am keeping him on the bute. Also bought him a mineral block which he doesn't seem real interested in. I'm going to continue to keep him in until he is a little more sound, even tho' our farrier suggested just turning him out to "be a horse." He has his favorite mare to socialize with next door. For the first time I saw some improvement yesterday. He was quite a bit perkier, moved around more, and even tried to tip over my wheelbarrow while I was cleaning. That's not acting like a horse that's ready to be put down!
Lee, thank you for your post. Indeed, Little Bit sounds a lot like your mare, just about the same size.
Yes, he did have steroids when he had the hoary allysium "event." Our vet did some blood work last fall. Nothing since then. At the time I wanted to get his selenium level checked as at one time vet had said he was low in it and I'd been supplementing him. He's never had a test done for Cushings or any other metabolic problem. Frankly, I think our vet would as soon turn and go the other way when he sees me bringing this horse in. He told me he was very frustrated by his condition this last visit, and didn't really know what to do for him. I think that most people in our area would just ask him to put the horse down if they didn't feel they would be able to get it sound again. Few people in this area want to spend a lot on their animals, it seems.
Like you the expense isn't a consideration (well..unless I had to mortgage the place, then I'd have to think about it) I manage to get the vet bills paid somehow. I just can't stand the thought of ending an animals life until I feel they are ready to give up. I sometimes feel we are running a rehab/nursing home for four footeds here as we not only have our own old and disabled, but seem to collect other people's as well. Lonnie call's the place "Sucker Ranch."
I appreciate all the encouragement as I felt I was fighting the vet, farrier, and even my husband to some extent. (He had the nerve to call me obtuse and stubborn!!) Don't know where he'd get that idea!
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2006 - 2:25 pm:
Ditto on Lee's post. Been there done that. Pergolide can be purchased at various compounding pharmacy's with your vet's prescription at very, very low prices. For numbers e'mail me privately. Try a plain salt block instead of the mineral.
Good luck, Shirl
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2006 - 3:03 pm:
Thanks,Shirley. He has a salt block, I thought if he had a plain mineral block also, he would "crave" anything he might be missing and chew on it. He's nibbled a little, but not much. He's much more himself today, head out his stall feed door watching everything going on. I opened his back door since it's warmed up, and he's even wandered over to his buddy's stall hoping for morsels that she may have missed.
Our vet can get the Pergolide for $265, and in one of the catalogs I saw it for about $30 less. Can you get it cheaper than that?
From what I've read, if a horse has EMS instead of Cushings, the Pergolide won't do any good. (I'll go back and double check that to see if I remembered right.)
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2006 - 4:15 pm:
You are right. If it's Insulin Resistant alone, Pergolide will not help, only low carb diet, no sugar, molasses, etc. No carrots, apples. You can use a few pellets as a treat, if they don't have a lot of molasses in them, or most horses even like sunflower seeds as treats, sugarless mints, etc. A lot of horses become Cushings that have I.R., but not necessarily. The only way to tell if they have Cushings is the Dex Text or ACTH test. Anyway, PetHealth Pharmacy is the cheapest for a lot of folks. My niece is getting her's there and for 3 months it's costing her a little over $100. I will check to make certain that's the Pharmacy if you are interested, and the amount.
Shirl
Shirl
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2006 - 6:11 pm:
Thanks, Shirley. I'll stick to diet for now I think; regardless he needs to loose the weight. I'll email if I need a phone number for PetHealth Pharmacy.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2006 - 6:50 pm:
One thing I caught above was the use of beet pulp, something we do not recommend in easy keepers because of its concentrated source of energy. Instead I would switch to a very stemmy hay and allow it free choice. It is thought coastal may have the lowest amount of fructans which is thought to contribute to the founder.
DrO
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2006 - 7:58 pm:
Oh, dear. I thought I could get by with the beetpulp combined with our grass hay. I have not been able to find any stemmy grass hay yet. In fact, the only grass hay I can find so far is hay that we raised. Most of our hay is three-way(oat-grass-alfalfa), but we do have some straight grass, but not much. Everyone raises and feeds alfalfa around here. If I can't find any straight grass, is there something else I can feed him?
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2006 - 8:02 pm:
Will soaking the hay before feeding suffice?
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2006 - 8:22 pm:
Do you have LMF feeds in your area? They have a super supplement grass formula with and without molasses. It gives all the vitamins and protein they need.
I put Brave on this and on Quiessence...for his magnesium deficiency...but they say it also helps to decrease weight.
You say his muscles are tight...it could be magnesium defeciency... Brave was so tight before he started this supplement, now he's a bowl full of jelly
Good luck Sara, I'm still sending you and your boy positive healing thoughts.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2006 - 9:08 pm:
Hi Aileen, no we don't. We have Nutrina, IFA, and also Purena if I drive an hour south. I'd forgotten reading about the Quiessence; I think I can get it down south,too, or if not from a catalog. His muscles aren't don't appear tight, he's just stiff moving all over like his joints hurt. That symptom seems much better, though.
I can see why Dr. O. says no to beetpulp. I just went back and reread on feed/forage qualities. I was worried our grass hay would be too rich, but looks like it's better for him than the beetpulp.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2006 - 9:25 pm:
Test him first for the magnesium, then if he is...visit www.foxdenequine.com they ship it to me...so I know they'll ship it to you.
I think nutrena has a low carb feed, but I'm not sure if its one of those feed 4 pounds of it for the horse to get all the vitamins. Maybe do a search for LMF equine feed, and ask them what/who they suggest. They are very kind.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 6:48 am:
Hi, I put my easy keepers on remission it is very similar to quiessence and much cheaper. You can order it thru valley vet.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 7:03 am:
What were you reading Sara? When I look at those pages MCal from grass hay is 0.9 to 1.1 per lb. Beet Pulp is listed as 1.2 per lb. This is 20% higher caloric content on average. If you have a straight grass hay and your horse has been getting richer diets try the straight grass hay to see if you can make progress. If he has remained fat on this you will have to find something stemmier.
Magnesium deficiency is extremely rare in horses on hay or grass and only cases in hospitalized horses have been reported, presumably from being off feed. The alfalfa you have been feeding is likely to have provided 5 times the amount of Mg needed for good health in your horse and the grass hay should provide adequate amounts.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 8:02 am:
Dr.O. I had my hay tested and it was low in mg. among other things, it seems since I am supplementing the correct vit. & min. the cresty necks have dramatically decreased. Of course they are on a strict diet also, so it could be coincidence or a combination.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 11:06 am:
While I was down and others were feeding, he was getting alfalfa or alfalfa mix. The last two months he's been getting grass only. I found some stemmy oat with very little head to it, although it's green not yellow. I'm headed south today to see if I can't find some stemmy grass or other feed that would be better. I'll also look for either the Quiessence or Remission.
I reread the article on forage values last night; it had been a while since I'd read it and I had in my mind that the beetpulp was lower in energy - I guess because it looks so bland. The kind we have here has no molasses, just the pulp.
Again, thank you all, and Dr. O for your input.
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 8:02 pm:
Triple Crown has a good Low Starch feed, and also a "Lite" that is good for easy keepers.
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Member:
Angel77
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Posted on Friday, Feb 24, 2006 - 3:00 am:
Dear Sara,
To begin with I agree with Dr.O, Shirl and Lee,
Be stubborn with your vet! Go for it. If you have a foundering horse and the vet did not correctly diagnose this problem within 24hrs to coin Donald Trump's saying, "He's fired!" Next please!
Your horse looks like mine used to. Long shaggy coat, lame, cresty neck, runny eyes, lethargic, overweight etc.
My mare was just recently clipped and looks great. She lost 75lbs the first year. No cresty neck after 8 months.
She grew all 4 frogs within the first year. The frogs are still growing healthy as we shoe every 5 weeks like clockwork.
Shoeing is everything when dealing with this type of situation. Before I came along she was lucky to be shod once every 3-4 months.
She is 30yrs old this year. She was 98-99% sound as of the first year under my care. To this day she is 99% sound. She has had Cushins for awhile maybe 6-7yrs.
After the first year children under 50-60lbs could ride her occasionally mostly walk with a little trotting. She loves the children and packs them around like precious cargo. She has come a long long way.
She is also happy with her new environment and new diet as of two years ago. When she came to me they had her on 12 lbs of Senior Equine sweet feed daily. She only weighed 750-825lbs at this time. Whereas now she weighs 675-725lbs.
Her feet were soft and crumbling. She had no frogs just holes where frogs should be. She also wore bar shoes on all 4 feet for many years. She came to me barefoot and lame on 2 or 3 legs.
Well that sweet feed quickly changed into 2 lbs a day, only because I could not stand to take away the one thing she looked forward to and made her happy.
She was in pretty bad shape when I began to care for her. I won't go into the many details as they are posted in other discussions.
All I can say is to look at her now one would never know how miserable she was. She looks like a spry 15yr old especially when she runs around the turnout with my gelding.
Her diet consists of 1 Flake of Alfalfa in the morning, 1 Flake of Timothy at Lunch, 1 Flake of Alfalfa for dinner and for her supplementation we have worked up to 3 lbs(from 2 lbs for the first six months with me) of Senior Equine, 2 lbs of Alfalfa cubes, 6 oz of Satin Finish a stabilized Rice Bran, 1 oz Red Cell, 1/2 oz Vit E & Selenium, 1 oz electrolytes(with no dyes), 1 oz of Source SR, and 3 Tbsp of Wheat germ oil daily.
Sara,
Am I reading the posts correctly in that you were feeding a foundering horse beet pulp and or a type of sweet feed or oats?
The vets here in California would cut off our hands if we were doing that. We were only allowed to feed hays, brans, A&M, or O&M. I do not know, maybe different schools of thought?
Maybe we are in different climates and it affects the horses metabolism in varying degrees?
I any case, this Cushings disease is like a mystery that only blood tests(which are different for each and every horse) and Pergolide can lend some relief. The blood tests determine what is going on medically with the horses so we can adjust certain foods, supplements or meds.
Shirl has a point about Pergolide. I would love to find out where I could buy Pergolide at a lower price. Sometimes I think corporations make these things so expensive because they know you need it to survive. Dirty rotten scoundrels!
I feel for your guy. He does look a little bummed out. Possibly just the angle of the photo?
However, he does not look like he is anywhere near ready to go to heaven. So hang in there. Let us hope for the best. We are all pulling for you both.
If you can get Alfalfa cubes in your area I highly recommend them.
In the last three months they have helped my 12yr old jumper to maintain a Hematocrit level of 32 up from 24 just 4 months ago. He was diagnosed anemic in October 2005. Believe me I tried every type of hay or forage I could get my hands on. Cubes rule.
Most likely he was anemic from the injury he sustained June of 2005 when he lost an eye. Suffice to say I was out of town and someone else was caring for him. Of course I came home with in 12 hrs and spent the next 23 days in two hospitals with my boy.
When I first got the cubes I thought the 30yr old mare might also benefit from them. She has had more energy. Her eyes are brighter. All around she just keeps getting better every day for the last two years.
I hope this can happen for your horse. I just know it is possible. So keep up the good work and research! It will pay off for you both.
Sorry for the lengthy post but history of others can often help. That is all every good person wants to accomplish, helping others.
Good luck and fight fight fight for the horse you love! He is really adorable!!!
Sincerely,
WTG
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 25, 2006 - 12:35 pm:
WTG - Thanks for your informative post!
Little Bit (aka "Pumpkin") is holding his own. I haven't had any bloodwork done recently as I was concerned about his foundering. I am of the opinion that Dr. O. is right in that he has EMS as opposed to Cushing's. Right now he is shedding like crazy and his new coat is shiny and very healthy looking. He is loosing weight on what I am currently feeding him, which is grass hay with the most stem I can find, Nutrena's Safe feed, and vitamins/minerals plus joint supplements and bute. I have been keeping his feet padded when he isn't in his stall, which is deeply bedded.
Our hay around here is very rich alfalfa and any other hay is almost possible to find. That is why I had started feeding the beet pulp (which has no molasses) In the past when I've had horses that have gotten too fat, I've put them on a Senior feed/beet pulp mix and cut way back on their hay and they've looked really good.
We have started growing most of our own hay, and it is mostly a 3 or 4 way mix hay. (grass, oat, alfalfa) I have gone through all the hay in the loft and pulled out the "worst" looking bales and set them aside.
I thought that alfalfa cubes would be too rich for him? Although, my stallions which show a lot are on cubes since it gives them something to do while hanging out in their stalls, and cubes are easy to haul to shows.
A&M is chopped alfalfa with molasses in it, isn't it? What is O&M ?
btw-I'm jealous of all your jumping experience and training. When I was young I would have killed for it!! Too old now. I have two friends here that are madly into jumping. One raises warm bloods and the other TBs and TB/warmblood crosses. The one has a stallion, Arthos (sp?) that medaled in the Atlanta Olympics.
Thanks for your input. I will keep you posted.
Dr. O. am I wrong about the blood tests? From reading I had thought it might aggravate the laminitis. Should I do them anyway?
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Member:
Angel77
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 26, 2006 - 6:21 am:
Dear Sara,
Thanks for the kind words of my jumping experience. I do not know everything and strive to learn at least 3-5 bits of horse knowledge everyday.
Did you see the photo of my boy(pre accident)in my profile? Just click on my name in any discussion and scroll down to see us jumping. I had just bought in October 2002.
We took 2nd in that photo alone out of 45 entries at Indio Desert Circuit February-March 2003. I still cannot believe it. His first national at nine yrs old. My first show in 23 yrs. I am so proud. Sorry gushing over my boy. I have no children at 43yrs old and single so cats, dog and horses rule my life.
How is Pumkin? Come spring will he shed out or maybe clip him? Does he wear shoes?
My mare is so very happy with her new fullbody clip. She is the happiest 30 yr old horse.
O&M is oat and molasses instead of/just like A&M which is alfalfa and molasses.
Best Wishes,
WTG
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 26, 2006 - 10:31 am:
Sara, my feeling toward testing for Cushings is that it is rarely indicated. If he has symptoms of Cushings, manage them. If the management does not help, treat it with pergolide. If he does not have symptoms why test?
Occasionally you do run across a horse with chronic laminitis with no other symptoms of Cushings and no ready explanation for the founder. That groups might be worth testing. But even then, since no test is even 70% sensitive, don't you end up treating them anyway just to see if it helps? We deal with the testing and worsening laminitis in the article on Cushings.
DrO
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 - 1:11 pm:
Hi all, an update on Little Bit (aka "Pumkin")
He is doing much better. He is still shedding like crazy and has lost some weight, although he has more to loose. I just wish I could do something to condition him also.
I have had him out in the arena with some of his buddies every other day or so. The other day we had a big dust devil (whirl wind) go through and the horses all took off at a run...including Little Bit! First time I've seen him run even a short distance in ages! He is also kicking at his best buddy and glaring at her whenever he thinks there is a chance she will get near his food. So, he's acting much more normal.
He's still getting his minerals, vitamins, cinnamon, chonDrOitin, glucosimine and sometimes bute. I had him in boots for awhile, but he seems o.k. without them right now.
We've just had a couple of feet of snow (the first all year, just in time for spring!) so he's just going in and out of his stall right now. He calls to me again when I open the garage door in the a.m. I hope his improvement continues. It is so nice to have him "back."
Thanks again, Dr O., for all your advice and the many articles you've posted; and thanks to everyone for their experiences and support.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 - 6:30 pm:
What great news!! I've been wondering how you both have been...I am so glad to hear this Sara!!
May I ask what the cinnamon is for?
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 - 7:12 pm:
I've recently read in both horse and people publications that cinnamon is good for arthritis. Also, according to research I've read by the Beltsville Human Nutrition Research Center in Maryland, cinnamon helps to improve sugar metabolism by making cells more responsive to insulin. So, I figured it might help him. Plus, he likes the taste.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 - 9:18 am:
Good job Sara and wonderful to hear. We have recently briefly reviewed the use of cinnamon for insulin insensitivity in horses and it should be easy to find with a search.
DrO
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 - 3:04 pm:
Thank you Sara, I'll give him a taste and if he wants it, we'll give that a try. His arthritis has really been flaring up lately. Dang snow. If he doesn't want it...maybe I'll give it a try
Dr. O, I did try to do a search, but could not locate where the research is you speak of...
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Mar 13, 2006 - 7:11 am:
Use the "search on discussions" form and search on cinnamon. It is the second reference.
DrO
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Mar 13, 2006 - 10:17 am:
Thank you Dr. O, found it. I was searching on the other engine... I did do some research last night and it looks as though cinnamon *may* trigger cancer in animals. So it looks like I'll be the one using the cinnamon
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, Mar 13, 2006 - 11:04 am:
Aileen, where did you read that? (!!) And, if in animals, I wonder why not in humans? I would think a horse would have to have an awful lot of it to cause cancer.
I'm really hesitant to change anything, even something minor, with Little Bit as he is doing so good right now, even with the cold and snow.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Mar 13, 2006 - 11:56 am:
Sara, I'll search for it at lunch...I bookmarked it on my home computer, so I'll definately have it up this evening. They did say "MAY trigger" and did not elaborate...but remember, Brave already had a rare form of cancer...so I don't want to chance it.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Mar 13, 2006 - 11:58 am:
Found it:
https://www.myhealthsense.com/F040824_cinnamon.html
"One note of caution is that coumarin, a substance found in cinnamon, may trigger cancer in animals. Cinnamon also contains cinnamaldehyde, which is toxic. But these toxic components are fat-soluble, while the beneficial ingredient, proanthocyanidin, is water-soluble. Water-soluble extracts of cinnamon are available in which “all the bad components are left behind,” said Anderson. (Ground cinnamon does allow both water- and fat-soluble components to be absorbed, but at the doses recommended, it does far more good than harm, he said; cinnamon sticks placed in hot water release only water-soluble components.)"
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Member:
Kathleen
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Posted on Monday, Mar 13, 2006 - 10:25 pm:
Am I understanding it right: cinnamon sticks are as good or better for horses than ground cinnamon because they are water soluble? Does placing them in hot water (or tea) make them more soluble than just feeding them? Has anyone tried giving cinnamon sticks as a treat for horses? How many would it take to be beneficial? Just wondering, it's interesting.
Kathleen
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 - 10:34 am:
You will find dosage recommendations in the reference I give above.
DrO
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 - 10:42 am:
I thought it interesting too...and thanks to Sara for bringing this up
I'm guessing that if you had cinnamon sticks, placed them in hot water and waited for it to be released, then gave the water to the horse it would be ok?? I'm actually wondering if cinnamon oil would be better? I'll be talking to a health food store this weekend, I'll let you know what I find out.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 12:39 am:
An unhappy update on Little Bit.
He had a good summer and fall. He shed out and looked good, seemed to be enjoying life. I put him on Pergolide, and it seemed to really help him get rid of the cresty neck, etc. He seemed to really be doing good. Then in November the farrier came and trimmed him again. It seems like everytime he got trimmed, or any other little even happened, it affected his feet. This time he got a bad case of laminitis and we have been fighting it from then until now. He would have some good days; sometimes he seemed he was over it, then I'd go out in the morning and he'd be really sore again.
The last couple of month have been really difficult. He has been on bute constantly. For awhile all four feet were affected, then the hind feet got better, but his right front foot abcessed at the coronet band. He went on antibiotics and I treated his foot every day, and it resolved, only to have the left front do the same. The left front was much worse, however and no matter what the vet, farrier and I tried it just didn't seem to help.
Today when his xrays were taken there was so much sinking and rotation that the bone was trying to push through the tissue at the coronet band, which is what caused a bulge at the top of the coronet band and the abcess. The last week, although some days would be better than others, there was no relief from pain even with bute twice a day. I also added aspirin to his feed thinking it might help blood flow and pain both. When I groomed him before his vet appointment I just knew it would be the last time. After talking with the vet and farrier, reviewing all his xrays, etc. I decided to have him put down.
The tough thing was that he looked so good except for his feet. He was still trying to boss my old mare, his buddy, around, talking to me and the other horses, etc. But the spark was dying in his eyes and I knew he was tired of hurting all the time.
The vet offered to come by this evening and "do it" and my farrier offered his back hoe services and ours is broken. I brought Little Bit home and turned him loose on the grass behind the barn. I let his buddy out with him. It was a warm (low 70s) sunny day and he had a lovely last afternoon. When I heard the vet's truck coming, I went and fed him horse cookies and told him I loved him, then left. My sweet husband helped the vet while I hid in the house.
He was a special horse and I'll miss him.
He was a tough little horse from day one. He was born a month early and luckily I found him immediately afterwards or he would have died. He was still in the sack when I found him. His dam totally ignored him. I went in to clean the stall and at first thought he was a pile of manure! when I realized what it was, I broke open the sack and dried him off. The dam had no milk, was afraid of him and then wanted to kill him. Because she had no colostrum to give him, he had to have a plasma infusion. I slept with him in my office in Truckee the first couple of weeks of his life and fed him every 1/2 hour at first.
Finally we found a miniture burro to share a stall with him and he learned to drink out of a bucket. When he was 6 mos. old he injured his leg so badly he had to have 72 staples in it. That was right after we moved here. To this day we have no idea what he did. We went out to feed, and there he was with his leg all torn up.
He's always been little, but with the heart of a lion. He's always been a fighter with no idea of his size. He'd take on any horse and boss them around. Before he got sick he was as fast as lightening and could turn on a dime. We had some big horses boarded here, and he delighted in making flying passes at them, giving them a nip, and they could never catch him. It was funny to watch.
He always had a sense of humor. He love untying show laces, and running off with my cap. Lonnie and I both thought a lot of him and felt he was a special horse I'll miss him. But, I know I did the right thing, the best thing for him, and that give me some peace.
So now there's another grave in our field and another horse has crossed the "Rainbow Bridge" to join some of his friends. I hope he finds them quickly. He's probably missed old Nefthys.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 5:01 am:
My deepest condolences Sara.
DrO
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 7:34 am:
Thought you were rather quiet yesterday, Sara . . . Wondered if you were showing. So very sorry to hear of Little Bit's passing. He had a rough beginning, didn't he? He almost didn't HAVE a beginning . . . yet he DID have a great life with you, and a gentle ending. I picture him might dancing and jigging on NEW toes today . . . bursting with horsey joy that he can play "hit and run" with new and old bigger buddies in Heaven. And I'm sure he's comparing notes with all the other animals and telling them about you and how you love him.
. . . and the grass in Heaven . . . well! It is much more tender and has soooooo much more taste than our grass here on earth!
You have another horse story to add to the "Angel Horses" series. 
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 9:41 am:
My condolences, Sara. You know that you did the best for him - but, you will always miss that special horse. Without you, there would not have been a life for him to enjoy.
Thinking of you,
Lilo
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 9:47 am:
My condolences Sara, no matter how good life has been for our friends saying goodbye is always hard.
Jos
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 10:20 am:
oh Sara, the hardest part about taking good care of your animals is watching them be in pain..
LittleBit is no longer in pain and I am sure bossing the mares around in the greenist pastures ever..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 1:08 pm:
Sara,
So sorry to hear about Little Bit.
Chris
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Member:
mcbizz
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 1:50 pm:
I just read your thread on Little Bit from the beginning for the first time, Sara. It began before I joined HA so was new to me. You certainly gave this little guy a life and now you've given him peace. Take it easy today...I know you need some time.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 3:51 pm:
So sorry Sara (((Hugs))) to you...
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 4:15 pm:
My deepest condolences, Sara. There's no doubt that Little Bit had a wonderful life because of you. Saying good by is always so heartbreaking. I wish you peace.
Fran
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Member:
shirl
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 4:18 pm:
Sara Dear,
Sending thoughts and hugs to you. I know how you are hurting, just remember you gave your baby a wonderful life that will continue on over The Rainbow Bridge.
Shirl
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 5:02 pm:
Sara my condolences too. There was a horse at our barn last evening, 32 yrs old, who was having an annual vet exam and when the vet was trying to remove the bean the horse freaked out, fell over, seized, when into respiratory arrest and his heart stopped shortly thereafter even after a few rounds of epi. The vet was so upset and his teenage owner and her mother who were with him were visibly shaken. He did a full life with the last two years of his life enjoying retirement. The owners did not have a chance to say goodbye, but he was off of forage, they were feeding him 18 lbs of grain a day to keep on weight, and he looks like he had developed Cushings. They also told us that he had been having mini strokes the past two years. I think a part of them, even though it was quick, wished they had provided a beautiful death for him but they just could not bring themselves to let go.
You provided Little Bit with a great gift, allowing him to go to a place where there is no pain. Thack will be there waiting to run over the ridge with him. I know you go on such amazing loving journey's with your animals and knowing when to say good bye is priceless. I respect you for being able to be strong enough to make the decision and I am sure he thanks you for the wonderful life he had the one great last afternoon.
Will be smiling as I think of him and Thack galloping away again...something I am sure both have surely missed!
Take care and hugs.
Corinne
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 5:24 pm:
Sorry Sara, you did all you could do.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 5:27 pm:
Sorry Sara, you did all you could do.
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Member:
ilona
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 6:45 pm:
Oh Sara, my heart goes out to you.
He sounds like such a special "Little Bit" (What a great name!) and how lucky he was to have one home for his whole life. Have a glass of wine for him, its a way of celebrating his life. If horses don't go to heaven I want to go to the place they go so I can be eternally enriched by them.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 10:35 pm:
Oh Sara, I am so sorry for your loss. I know your heart must be heavy, we are all here for you!
Suz
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 11:17 pm:
Thank you all for your kind thoughts. I slept very little last night, finally got up about 2:30a.m. and wandered out to the barn. It was so peaceful and serene out there. It was warm enough that I was comfortable in my robe. The air was still and the stars were brilliant. I stayed out there for an hour or so just listening to the soft snorts and snuffles of the sleeping horses. Shadow, the big barn cat kept me company. I finally went back back to bed but was up again at 7a.m. and spent the day working hard, somehow it helps me to do that. I know a lot of you know how this feels; the heaviness in your heart. He and I were very attached, I guess because I was his surrogate mom. Whatever the reason, I sure miss the little guy! But, it would have killed me to watch him suffer longer with no hope of recovery. Thanks again, all.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 15, 2007 - 12:51 am:
Sara, you realize when each one of us reaches the rainbow bridge there will be such a stamped of hoof and paw that it will be heard thru out the heavens !! Just think of little Bit bouncing around on GOOD hooves and wanting to know where the heck are my cookies ?? Cindy
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 15, 2007 - 3:04 am:
Each horse enriches our lives. They push us to go farther, reach higher and learn more. Each one we lose we will carry with us in our hearts for the rest of our days.....accepting this fact, I like to give myself permission to not grieve. I grieved for my first horse and have found that the grief itself has become a part of his memory forever...it makes his memory sad. I feel dreadful sorrow for a horse enduring pain or suffering, but once released to death, I now reach only for the joy, the good times and the endearing relationship. It sets the tone for the memories I will draw on for the rest of my life - they will be sweet, and because they are..........I will choose to go there more often.
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Member:
twhgait
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 15, 2007 - 10:39 am:
**Huge Hugs** Sara. I'm so sorry for your loss. I just read the whole thread and he sounds like he was a really good guy with a big heart. You saw him thru from beginning to end and he'll forever love you for that!
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 15, 2007 - 12:32 pm:
Wow, Sara, I just read this thread for the first time.
"Little Bit" sure made "Quite A Bit" of impression on the world, didn't he! Sounds like a wonderful personality. I'm so sorry you lost him so young.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 15, 2007 - 3:32 pm:
Sara Im so sorry. I wish you and lil bit peace and comfort.
leslie
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Member:
liliana
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 15, 2007 - 9:42 pm:
Almost spooky that exactly a year almost to the hour of the last post!
I am so sorry for your loss. At least he was very much loved
My deepest condolences
Liliana
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Member:
sonoita
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Posted on Monday, Mar 19, 2007 - 2:05 pm:
So sad for you Sara, hugs and best wishes your way.
Happy Trails
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Mar 19, 2007 - 5:23 pm:
(((hugs))) Sara from our home to yours.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 - 12:00 pm:
I'd like to add my condolences, Sara (have been away). It's so very sad to lose a friend, especially one with so much personality, and whose life has been so closely linked to yours.
So sorry.
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Member:
adriaa
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 - 9:03 pm:
My deepest condolences Sara, I've been away for a bit and just read your post. He will remember you always.
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