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| Discussion on Rear limb weight shifting | |
| Author | Message |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 18, 2006 - 4:47 pm: Hi Dr.O. My older mare 26 yrs. for the last few mos. constantly shifts her rear legs when standing. She tries to rest them by cocking them the way horses do and can't. When she walks she drags both hind feet. When she canters (which isn't often) she bunny hops. I have been putting this off as arthritis but now am not so sure. It is both rear legs affected and bute does not help it. She can not cock either leg to rest it. When the farrier does her rear hooves she pulls them up under her belly and they seem to go into spasms. She actually seems more comfortable moving than standing. Both legs seem affected equally. I searched symptoms on the net and emnd seemed to fit accept she is not losing alot of weight. They are getting older hay. She also holds her tail out from her body, but it is not cocked, straight out. She does have a sway back. Otherwise she seems very healthy. Any ideas? |
| Member: Lilly |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 18, 2006 - 7:20 pm: Hi Diane,Your mare sounds A LOT like my gelding, Sebastian. He has DSLD. His back fetlocks are severely DrOpped and he constantly switches from foot to foot. I belong to a DSLD support group and their website to the public is www.dsldequine.info . I know that one of the members has a video clip on the website that shows her horse doing the bunny hop like you described. My horse does not do this. My horse also has not had a weight loss problem like a lot of other DSLD horses. I hope this helps. Ann |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 18, 2006 - 9:34 pm: Thanks Ann I am open to any ideas. I went to the website and it doesn't really match her symptoms. She doesn't stumble, have DrOpped fetlocks, walk wide behind, ect. Out of curiosity can your gelding prop his back legs in a resting state. you know the toe is on the ground type thing. She can not do it and it seems to irritate her. |
| Member: Lilly |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 18, 2006 - 10:52 pm: Diane,Yes, Sebastian can prop his foot on his toe. I guess what really caught my attention and made me think of the DSLD was the 'bunny hop' description. I tried to access the video again tonight but the link wouldn't work. Actually, if it's not DSLD, that's great! This is not something you want to have to deal with. There is no cure and not many treatment options. It all boils down to keeping your horse comfortable until the pain is too much to bear. |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 19, 2006 - 7:03 am: Dr.O. I also forgot to mention 3yrs. ago she quit coming in heat and also stopped sweating, just in case that makes a difference. Thanks |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 19, 2006 - 9:30 am: Other than she does sound uncomfortable your post does not localize the problem or even clearly suggest pain is in fact the problem. Certainly the 2 that come to my mind are mild founder secondary to Cushings or one of the Tying Up entities is possible. Occasionally you see founder bothering the rear worse. But bilateral bruising or bilateral arthritis is possible. So you should explore each of these then get the veterinarian out to help localize where the pain is coming from or if incoordination or weakness might be the problem. By the way, what are doing to make up for the poor nutrition offered by the hay?DrO |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 19, 2006 - 11:19 am: Thanks Dr.O. I know it is rather vague but the symptoms are present always. I did have vet look at her & checked thyroid which was normal. He said she was just old, but I don't think that is it. She passed field neurological exam. She has never foundered before, this is just rear limbs for sure. I will check for pulses and hoof test her to be sure tho. As far as the hay it is good quality but 2 yrs. old so of course the vitamin content is probably gone. She gets manna pro sho-glo which is an all around vit. & min. supplement. I just ordered E-5000 for her. It has 5000mg of E and was thinking of adding 1 mg of se. we are supposedly se insufficient here. I can not get into expensive diagnostics with her, and besides they aren't available anyway. Any idea as to why she can't cock her legs to rest them? Is there any joint that would make it more uncomfortable? My untrained eye thinks it is her hip area. Thanks |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 19, 2006 - 11:32 am: I forgot in you emnd article it said something about looking at the eye for some things. Is that something a vet needs to do? |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Monday, Feb 20, 2006 - 9:49 am: Well I checked her pulses this morning and they are slightly elevated. I will check them again tonite just in case that is normal for her. I usually can not detect a pulse on this mare, but I usually check them in the evening. The ground is hard now so that may be the problem, as my other gelding were slightly elevated also. The one with shoes on was normal. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 22, 2006 - 8:20 am: What was the purpose of the thyroid function tests Diane? You list what he did not find, but what we need is what did he find wrong?Ideas yes, but they are not a diagnosis: pain, weakness, incoordination can all lead to the symptoms you give. From the vets exam it appear incoordination can be crossed off. Hind limb lesions do not localize well by appearance. The reciprocal apparatus means pain anywhere effects the appearance everywhere. One interesting thing to do might be to see if her medial patellar ligaments have been cut, your vet should be able to palpate this. It requires an ophthalmoscope and experience to detect the changes in the retinae for EMND. DrO |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 22, 2006 - 8:56 am: The reason for the thyroid test was lethargy, I guess. I have owned her since she was 2 so I know nothing has been cut. I think my next step will be a glucose/ins test. I believe you may be right about foot pain, and am starting to wonder about cushings. I will also have him check her eyes when I have him come. Thanks for pointing me in the foot direction as it doesn't really present that way, but as I know from experience presentation means nothing. Thanks again |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 23, 2006 - 8:05 am: Dr.O I have the vet coming today, is there anything else I should have him check? symptoms- weight shifting, can't rest rear legs, lethargy, heat cycles ceased, anhiDrOsis, somewhat depressed, bute doesn't help except at high doses. I am going to have him do lameness examine, blood test, and check her eyes. anything else? Thanks |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 23, 2006 - 9:32 am: Have you read the article on thyroid disease and testing in horses Diane?Presentation is important Diane and a generalized stiff way of going is a common presentation for bilateral foot pain but it is not the only cause so a general exam is important so as not to overlook anything. A general physical exam will be the most important part of the visit Diane and the findings from this exam should lead to further diagnostic tests. DrO |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Friday, Feb 24, 2006 - 8:11 am: Hi, Dr.O. The vet thinks the mare's arthritis has been aggravated by muddy slippery conditions. He didn't flex her as she is in quite a bit of pain. It does seem to be worse in the hip area. The weird thing is she has a elevated pulse in rt front and left rear, hoof tests neg. He drew blood to check insulin/glugose and a cbc, I think. What do you think the elevated pulses are from? He said the pain from the arthritis would do it. I am thinking it may be from weight bearing as left rear is worse. Very odd. Thanks |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Feb 24, 2006 - 10:13 am: I don't think arthritis further up the leg would increase the pulse but certainly believe bearing extra weight on a foot might cause increase circulation. By itself it is not a diagnostic indicator however. If I have a lame leg and the foot is distinctly warmer I am interested if there is an inflammatory disease in that foot.DrO |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Friday, Feb 24, 2006 - 8:39 pm: Actually Dr.O. He believes her whole leg has arthritis, with the hips seemingly the worse. Her stride is very short in back and she doesn't extend either leg behind. Very short steps. Have you ever zinged you tailbone and walked really tight? That's what it reminds me of. Her front stride seems ok considering everything. It just seems this has become alot more severe in the last few days. This mare was never used hard, just a kid pony ride giver. At this point I can't decide whether to stall rest her or let her move. The vet felt if footing was ok to leave her out. Our pasture is all hills and she has a hard time going up them. I just wonder if she didn't slip and fall in the snow/ice we had. Vet palpatated and she seemed sore in hip area (both sides) Does holding her tail straight out indicate anything? She never use to. Thanks for any thoughts. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 25, 2006 - 10:13 am: No the tail thing does not have any meaning for me. I would be reluctant to turn a horse out on ice that is having trouble getting around. You still should pursue what ever it is getting worse rapidly. OH I had forgot to mention that you should look at our Overview of Nutrition for recommendations on vitamin supplementation. You may find our ideas better AND less expensive than what you are doing now.DrO |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 25, 2006 - 4:43 pm: Dr.O. I have gotten some grass hay from this year that is very nice. She also is getting a vit. E & sel. sup. now. Once in awhile I give her some alfalfa, but she is a very easy keeper and fat so I am trying to take weight off her also. I did not see anything in the article that I should do different?? When we had our winter storm I did keep them locked in their lean-to/paddock for a few days, but their are still some slippery spots. It just can't be avoided altho it's not bad. Today she seems better and maybe the blood tests will show something. Thanks |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 26, 2006 - 10:46 am: I think there is a problem with equine vitamin supplements, in the article it refers to them and gives you a link to follow. Also I want you to be careful with the selenium, it can be toxic.I reread all the posts above and it seems that we still have these 4 possibilites: Chronic founder Chronic tying up DSLD (note that just because you do not have DrOpped fetlocks you can't rule it out as pain is the first sign) Arthritis Considering the age a combination of the above is possible. The blood test will accurately rule in or out the muscle problems, unless your horse lays down a lot. There are several other pieces of information that would help: What breed is this horse? How does the horse trot in a straight line? What were the results of the rear leg ankle flexions? DrO |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 26, 2006 - 3:54 pm: Dr.O. She is getting 1mg of se. She is a welsh/arab 13.3hh, 875 by weight tape. chronic founder is not at the top of the list no heat, hoof test fine. Feet don't seem sore on hard ground, etc. Chronic tying up...maybe blodd tests should help there. dsld I don't know. For sure she has arthritis, but my gut feeling (for what it's worth) it is not the PRIMARY problem. Vet did not want to flex her as she is very sore and didn't feel it was the right time to do it. (I agreed). She wouldn't trot if you beat her with a whip. Before this snow storm she was leading the boys out to pasture, cantering and trotting. Which looked good for her anyway. I had to remove bute as she was getting watery diarrhea and stopped eating. That cleared up shortly after bute was stopped. I jsut don't know at this point how to make her comfortable. I think the lock up not the snow made her worse, before I turned them out she was showing this problem. I don't want to give up on her, but she is hurting. I have even rapped her back legs, but that didn't help. Thanks here's a pic of her.
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| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 26, 2006 - 7:09 pm: Neither pulse nor hoof testers are reliable with low grade founder but not being worse on hard ground in a pretty good indication it is not founder. Let us know what comes back on the blood work. If it is arthritis I would have thought the bute would help. I do think the pony looks a bit overweight in the image, what is the pony's condition on the 9 point scale described in Care for Horses » Particular Situations & Procedures » Weight, Condition, and Eventual Height Estimation.DrO |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 26, 2006 - 7:44 pm: Dr.O. I have been observing Flash most of the day and the lameness has now seemed to localized to the lr she was laying down more today and when she is up she is constantly lifting her left hind. she'll put it down pick it up and hold it up, then put it back down. That has been the one with the pulse. I imagine the right rear is getting as sore with the weight bearing. O.K. now if this is a low grade laminitis would putting styrofoam supports on them (the rears help?) What about an abscess possibility. I still don't feel any heat at all in any of them. I think my husband would kill me if I have the vet out again so soon. I have a hoof tester and will test her tomorrow again. Ideas? Sorry I am being such a pain. Oh and she is about a 7 on your scale. She has always been heavy, but has never, ever had problems with her feet. What in the world would cause laminitis in the rear (if that's what it is)? |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 26, 2006 - 7:55 pm: Also I want to thank you so much for helping me think thru this. This site and your advice is greatly appreciated. It keeps us goofy, over reactive (MOMS) feet planted on the ground. Again many thanks. |
| Member: Juliem |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 26, 2006 - 11:58 pm: Diane, given the crest on your mare, I think laminitis is a possibility. It's a systemic disease process, which means her hind feet could certainly be affected. If it is laminitis, it's possible it's in all four feet and it's anyone's guess why she shows more pain in the rears. She doesn't have a typical laminitis stance, but that doesn't always accompany laminitis, especially if it's in the rear feet also. Putting the styrofoam pads on might give some relief and that would seem to say the pain is coming from the hoof area and if she had an abcess, I wouldn't think they would give any relief, so maybe you could at least narrow down the possibilities. How are her feet trimmed and how knowledgeable is your farrier about applying the styrofoam? There is a specific way to do it. Good luck, I know this is frustrating. Julie |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Monday, Feb 27, 2006 - 6:59 am: Thanks Julie, I am experienced in the styrofoam unfortunately. I agree as from different experiences with other horses it helps laminitis but not abscesses. She has been fat and cresty all her life actually right now she has been on a diet and lost almost 100# so far. That pic is from Dec. before her diet. She has never foundered. If it is laminitis I have to wonder what the trigger is, possibly cushings. Her feet are squared off on the rear toes to help with breakover, because of her arthritis. When I had the vet out I asked about it being founder and he said he didn't think so. I looked him in the eye and said I don't want it to turn into it either. She remains on her diet, about 8#'s of grass hay and 3oz. (measured) of safechoice pellets +supplements. I will apply the styrofoam on all feet today and see if it helps, Thankfully it is suppose to be warm. (for here). Thanks Julie. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Feb 27, 2006 - 7:40 am: With a 7 I too think it ups the possibility of laminitis but still there seem to be few other symptoms. Your mare, as do many ponies, appears to suffer from EMS which may just be a synonym for easy keeper. You can go to the article to read some of the current theories on why these horses founder. The rare horse I have seen that founders worse on the rear had unusual conformation: light front ends and heavy butts. I think it is simple physics, there was more weight on the rear.It is not that you are being a pain Diane, it is just that there is little I can do with the information you provide. If the left rear hurts and bute does not help you have to find where before you can address the problem. DrO |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Monday, Feb 27, 2006 - 4:52 pm: The vet called and the blood test showed nothing significant he said. I don't have the values but he said her wbc was slightly low, Potassium slightly high, glucose slightly low, and lymphocytes slightly low. everything else was normal. He said her cpk was very slightly raised like normal is 600 hers was 640? Say anything to you Dr.O? I padded her feet today and it didn't help. Thanks |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Feb 27, 2006 - 6:32 pm: No, I agree with your vet that mild a change is insignificant and could easily be the laying down. Diane if you continue to not be able to identify the cause, consider joint supplement replacers and increasing the amount of bute.DrO |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Monday, Feb 27, 2006 - 7:10 pm: Thanks Dr.O. Thats what my vet said to try giving her 3 grams bute for a few days then taper down to see if it can knock the inflammation down, If she can tolerate it. I changed her joint supp a few days ago and have been doubling the dosage. Vet asked if I can think of any changes at all since this started and when I was talking to him I said no, however after thinking about it, it's about when I switched from the 2 yr. old hay to this years. I don't know if that could have something to do with it. Both are pure grass hay. Just to be on the safe side tho I am going to feed them the old hay for awhile and see. The only other thing he said was testing for lyme, but like you he said he has never seen a case in a horse, he said that the low wbc could point to the white blood cells going to the joints (or something like that). He also agreed it doesn't seem to be her normal old aches and pains & he knows her pretty well. Thanks |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 28, 2006 - 6:19 am: I forgot to mention Dr.O. he said we could treat her with doxy and see if it helped. I have read your lyme article. As a side note a few years ago I posted on here about this mare, having what we thought was potomac horse fever.(colic or teeth problems) was the post. She lost her zip after that and shortly after was when I started her on joint supps, due to what appeared to be hip arthritis. Could the doxy hurt? Of course I am going to try the bute etc. first. I suppose I am grasping at straws, but she is going downhill a little every day. Thanks |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 28, 2006 - 8:56 am: Of course there is risk with any medication, we have an article on doxycycline at Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals » Antibiotics and Antimicrobials. Tetracyclines do have some antiinflammatory for arthritis though I am uncertain if doxy has the property, it may be in the article.If I were going to try something besides the bute, or if the bute fails again, I would consider a month long course of pergolide as it will address the most likely cause of the depression, pituitary adenoma. DrO |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 - 3:16 pm: Hi, Dr. O. a little update on this mare, we decided to give her a shot of legend. It is now day 4 post shot and what a difference. Her depression is gone she is moving around more and even giving the geldings dirty looks again. She is by no means 100% but much better. One thing still puzzles me tho is she is still lifting the lr way up under her belly and shaking it as if it is in a spasm. The weight shifting has improved and she can rest her back legs for a minute but thats about it. This is an awful expensive treatment, but my vet said they give the first 2 shots 2-3 weeks apart and has seen it last up to 90 days for a horse that isn't used much. He also said I don't need to give the oral supps anymore (which weren't working) and skip the bute so the cost is about the same. I did read your article regarding legend and realise his statements are a little contradictory. We shall see I guess. Right now the improvement is remarkable. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Mar 13, 2006 - 7:48 am: Diane, I always have problems with posts like this and as you note the vet's comments do not make much sense. From what we know about IV HA it is hard to attribute such remarkable changes to the HA alone.First, Legend does not have such remarkable effects when given, particularly systemically. In fact the effects are subtle enough that it takes good double blind studies on many horses to demonstrate an effect and a lot of experts are arguing whether it does any good at all. This is compared with the effects of bute which can take and old arthritic cripple and dependably make him good for light use for a day. Second, if the problem is arthritis, the effects of the daily oral supplements would probably be additive to the injections and not replaced by the hyaluronate. After all once given the exogenous hyaluronate disappears from the blood stream and is gone completely in 3 hours and joint levels, which do not perceptibly rise following IV injection, but extrapolating from IA injection return to normal in 24 hours. The change in mental attitude suggest your horse may have been going through some systemic disorder (a mild virus?) that has now passed coincidentally following the use of the HA. DrO |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Monday, Mar 13, 2006 - 8:27 am: I don't know Dr.O. but nothing has changed in her routine. These horses haven't left the property in mos. and are not exposed to other horses. She never was running a fever when I checked it, and it would seem like a long time for a virus to run its course. Bute was not agreeing with her. (diahrea) and loss of appetite. My vet also said he didn't understand how it helps, but has seen it work in some horses in his practice. Her joints don't crack and pop half as much as they were. I am going to give the second shot and see if it ever wears off. I guess if it don't we will know it wasn't the legend. Hope is eternal I guess for our old equine friends. Thanks. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Mar 13, 2006 - 9:52 pm: There is a famous Latin saying, "Time heals all wounds" though my memory is not good enough to remember it in Latin. To say nothing else has changed ignores the clock and the bodies ability to heal itself with time. But at least you know the facts as best as science understands them and I wanted you to know my own experiences support the scientific results. Let us know how it goes.DrO |
| Member: Dyduroc |
Posted on Monday, Mar 13, 2006 - 10:30 pm: Haec olim meminisse iuvabit.DrO, is that the phrase you were trying to remember? D. |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 - 7:58 am: I hope you are right Dr.O. as this treatment is expensive. I am still giving her the orals, because I have it. Yesterday she trotted and cantered up a hill. Haven't seen that in awhile. My horse hating husband (he likes me to believe that) has even remarked on the difference. I will update after 2nd shot should wear off. I did mention the pergolide to the vet, he doesn't believe she is cushings from appearence, tho said we could try it if I wanted to. The legend was a last ditch effort as she was very quickly going down hill with the pain. The bute didn't seem to help. Thank You for everything. |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 - 10:17 am: I think I found out what changed in their routine, the weather. It has been raining and very spring like since her shot. In other words the ground has been very soft. Winter is back and the ground is frozen and guess what so are her symptoms. SOOO I suppose it's her feet. I am going to skip the legend and try the pergolide. I'll let you know if that helps. I am also going to get a copy of her blood tests. When I was reading the cushings article she did have some of the factors that help diagnose cushings. I will post them when I get them. I should have listened to you Dr.O. If the pergolide is going to make a difference how long does it take? Her pulses are bounding again. Thanks. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 - 10:21 am: D, no much simpler like a proverb...how about "Tempus sunat vulnera" (I admit to looking it up).Diane, it is the cost of the Legend along with that I cannot come up with a good reason for such a remarkable response that I question the cure. This problem has me feeling like a dog with a bone, I just can't seem to let it go and if you don't mind I would like to pursue this a bit further. Let's look at the problem stating absolute facts:
This leads us to 3 conjectures about the Legend: 1) The Legend was coincidental and what ever was wrong finally healed. 2) You had a arthritis that had unusual symptoms of spasticity and was not bute responsive but remarkably responsive to Legend. 3) There is some other unknown disease process that is responsive to Legend. I feel there is about an 80% chance the first is the explanation and we still don't know what it was but agree with your plan. 2 questions come to mind: when the blood work was run were any of the other muscle enzymes run: LDH or AST? Are you still giving vit E? DrO |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 - 12:08 pm: Hi, Dr.O. here are the blood resultsResults Ref Range Glucose 51 (low) 60-125 urea nitrogen 13 8-26 creatine 1.0 1.0-2.2 Tot protein 6.8 5.4-7.8 albumin 3.8 2.3-3.8 tot. bilirubin 1.4 0.8-3.2 alk phos 147 50-250 ast(sgot) 281 180-380 cholestrol 80 50-140 calcium 11.2 10.8-13.5 phos. 3.3 2.0-5.0 sodium 139 132-146 potassium 5.4(hi) 2.4-4.7 chloride 97 97-108 globulin 3.0 2.2-4.4 cpk 361 (hi) 100-300 ggtp 11 1-35 Comments Lipemia 1+ the following results may be affected by this degree of lipemia hemoglobin 13.5 11.0-17.0 hematocrit 37.6 32.0-50.0 wbc 4.7(lo) 5.5-12.5 rbc 7.56 7.0-12.0 mcv 50 34-58 mch 17.9 12-19 mchc 35.9 31-39 platelet count 110 100-400 platlet est. adequate neutophils 2914 62% 2600-7500 bands 0 lymphocytes 1457(lo) 1500-7700 monocytes 282 0-1000 eosinophils 47 0-1000 basophils 0 0-290 bile acids 2.4(lo) 5-2.8 fibrinogen 100 100-400 There it is maybe you can tell me what that lipedemia comment is. She is still on vit.e& se. Should I try the pergolide? |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 - 12:22 pm: Gosh Dr.O. I just looked up lipemia in here does this mean she has liver disease. She hasn't lost her appetite. Would that be why her glucose is low? |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 - 5:33 pm: Just one more thing for today Dr.O. The weight shifting seems worse today and her pulses are quite elevated, however with a check of my other 2 horses they are elevated quite a bit also. Front and rears. The grass is starting to turn greenish could this be the problem. She still moves much better but the weight shifting is quite remarkable. Time to lock them off grass? Thanks |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 15, 2006 - 6:33 am: Oppps we crossed paths in my last post and mine should be read as though your previous one did not exist. I cannot replace the eyes and senses of your veterinarian, they should always be the last arbitrator of diagnosis and therapy. Bounce my thoughts off them and see if it makes sense from their perspective.The hypoglycemia is easy: the blood sample sat in the truck a few hours before the test was run and the RBCs metabolized the glucose. Their is little evidence of liver problems in your panel and the lipemia could happen following a high fat meal or in the case of a fat horse, if the sample was taken while the horse was fasting or not eating well. Let's be careful here about again making conclusions from temporal events: the ground harding back up and the horse being stiff again. Can you find soft areas to carefully test this observation? DrO |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 15, 2006 - 7:06 am: Dr.O. she is not stiff, actually her movement has greatly improved. It's when she stands still. Her back legs are constantly shifting. Then she will move a front forward to take weight off the back one and just keep shifting. she eventually is moving forward just from the shifting. She can not stand in one place. Moving she looks really good. I have been bouncing your thoughts off my vet and honestly he thinks alot like you. He is willing to try the pergolide or anything, cuz actually he's stumped also. I have printed out articles from here and he thinks that,s great. Since the legend shot her forward movement is good even on hard ground. When she is still is the problem, she can not cock her leg to rest it. (both) altho lr seems worse. Sometimes she lifts the lr up under her belly and it just shakes as if in a spasm,(this happens when shes moving(usually) I can see she gets very aggravated and depressed. She is not lying down as much. I don't know is it worth trying a mo. of pergolide. Any other avenues to investigate? My vet is very willing and helpful, but really don't know where to go from here. As far as the legend there is a big improvement in her gait, but I have always suspected this is not related to her arthritis Thanks |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 15, 2006 - 8:12 am: Also I wanted to ask about emnd again, what caught my eye in that article was these horses seem to move better than stand. She is getting 5000 mg of vit E and 1mg of se. for about a mo. now. Thanks |
| Member: Paul303 |
Posted on Thursday, Mar 16, 2006 - 2:31 am: Diane: I have a 26 yr old QH mare. She's 14.2 and is built just like your mare...round and heavy in the front end - she is not cresty, tho. She weighs about 975. A couple of years ago, she was getting really stiff - since she's been Navicular for nearly 20 years, we were blinded by that "tag". I buted her more, and watched her feet carefully. Truthfully, this has not been a horse for the past 20 years, this has been two very touchy and expensive front feet - and I wasn't seeing past that.It was in the fall of 2004 that my farrier said her feet were hot. Now, I had thought they seemed warm, and she was lying down a lot...but I'd feel the front, then the back, then the other mare's feet, and I'd confuse myself. When he said hot feet, POW!...a light went on. I came right to this site and CAREFULLY read everything on Cushings. Duh, duh, duh. My vet insisted that she strongly doubted she had Cushings because of how great she looked. My NIECE, who was brought up showing this horse, and is now an Equine vet in Mass. dismissed the idea for the same reason. I was all too ready to not look for trouble. So, yes, despite her "good looks", she DID have Cushings. At that time she was heading for laminitis, and she was FLOODED with anything and everything available to treat her...the guilt thing, you know? Some things I can tell you: 1. Her eyes brightened and her attitude got better after about 2 weeks on pergolide. Not a BIG change, but a change an owner will notice. 2. We put her on Safe Choice and she's been on Farrier's Formula. Check the label on the Safe Choice. There are a lot of supplements in this feed already. Don't oversupplement. 3. Like you, I tried Legend to see if it would help her symptoms - BEFORE the Cushings diagnosis, all I noticed, was, like you, the cracking and popping noises REALLY subsided. That's about it, though. Once on the Pergolide, she began to move around a lot more ( not so lethargic ), and her joints seemed to benefit. I still do the Legend about every 3mnths. - for ME. The noises her joints make don't seem to bother HER, but they make MY knees buckle! 4. Since last summer, I've noticed a similar situation with her lr. It started with what seemed like a drastic stumble of her rear end during light riding ( at a slow jog - the fastest we ever ride her ). Like your horse, her rear toes are squared to ease breakover. Last fall, I was watching when she "lost her rear end" at the slow jog while being ridden. When she righted herself, she could not lower her lr. It was held up, flexed toward her abdomen. I could see the muscle spasming in the back of her thigh. She DID extend it after about 3 minutes and many tries. In watching her, I see that there are certain times this happens - jogging in a circle. She is OK if she jogs straight ( this is with a rider ). I've seen it happen a few times when she hauls herself up after laying down. It has happened a couple of times when her pasture mates instigate a "charge" through their woodlot pasture - this "charge". while dodging trees, sometimes causes a "hang-up". I've felt that it was her stifle. Since there's some muscle wasting with Cushings, and some wear and tear on the ligaments at 26 years old, it just seemed logical. Prior to this, she has never had any stifle problems. I might be wrong on this, but perhaps the good Dr.O will weigh in. 5. Overall, I'm pleased with the Pergolide. I'd advise researching the medication. I use a source recommended by a great person on this site. Since it is compounded, I also incorporate "human Pergolide". It helps to ease the economic bite, and helps "hedge my bets" on the less expensive compounded drug. Sorry for the length of this. Best of luck, Diane |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Thursday, Mar 16, 2006 - 7:20 am: Thanks Lee Your mare does sound alot like mine except 3 points She is not stiff at all. There is absolutely no heat in her feet. She has never had any problem with her feet.She may be cushings I talked to my vet yesterday and he said we could try the pergolide. He also said to maybe try to excersise her more.(lightly) So I lunged her some and ran her around the pasture a little and actually she looked pretty good. She has been a pasture potato for a few years now and maybe she just needs to get some muscle tone. If this mare could stand and rest her back legs I would say she was doing GREAT. The vet felt it may have something to do with her stay apparatus? Dr.O.?? what do you think of that. Your mares stifle thing sounds the same and actually I haven't seen my mare do that now for a few days. For right now I am going to hold off on the pergolide and try an exercise regimen. She continues on her diet and has lost 140#S and still needs to lose more. I just hope she is losing weight because of the diet. She is DrOpping more than the boys, but then again she is low in the pecking order. The reason for putting off the pergolide at this point is maybe I can control it with management if indeed she has cushings. DrO could the stay apparatus have anything to do with the weight shifting? He also said he could palpate her to see if she had any masses that might be causing this. She is Not lying down more than usual, she seems much brighter,(even bucked), I honestly don't think this is founder, but I have been wrong before. Her pulses come and go, but so do my other horses. 3 grams of bute does not help the weight shifting. Thanks Lee I feel better about the stifle thing. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Mar 16, 2006 - 7:50 am: What happened to the idea that she was much better on soft ground? Have you tested to see if this is true? Some horses with founder will shift weight back and forth.Diane the first question to answer is why is she shifting weight back and forth. Only then can you really form a workable rule out sheet. Shifting can be caused by pain, weakness, or incoordination and most often the physical exam and lab will give you a good idea. Most painful conditions would respond to bute and your veterinarian does not seem to feel this is incoordiantion or weakness. Either you have a very unusual problem or something is being missed. I think some mild form of EMND is still on the list of possibilities now that depression does not seem to be part of the problem. What does your vet think is wrong with the stay apparatus and why? DrO |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Thursday, Mar 16, 2006 - 8:47 am: Dr.O. I guess I should have been more specific as far as the hard ground she moves the same, her weight shifting seemed worse when still. It could have just been a coincidence. I talked to the vet on the phone and that is what he said. "I don't know why her stay apparatus isn't working" I am not real familiar with the stay apparatus, but maybe he thinks that's why she can't stand still, is it a possibility? Even when she is eating her hay she pretty much keeps moving around it. Where the boys cock their back legs and munch. Her back legs are pretty much in perpetual motion. She will stand with them square, but it only lasts about 10 secs. then they are moving again. He thought it was a way out possability that she could have some kinda mass pressing on something from the inside. I don't know Dr.O. I had the physical 2xs, did the labs, when I lounged her yesterday I pulled on her tail at the trot and she pulled back real well. She even side passed cuz' she thought I had lost my mind that she actually was being lounged. (I haven't made her do much for quite awhile) I don't think she is weak. She cantered and bucked when I ran them in the pasture, her rear stride was a little short, but it has been. I would have thought with that amount of bute she would be able to stand still, but no. So I don't think pain is a big factor. It just tires her out tho I think. The padding of her feet did not make a difference, maybe I should just let her be and see what happens. I think I have tried most every rule out. except expensive diagnostics and that just isn't possible. There is one other thing that has developed on her, it looks like a heave line, but is a very hard ridge in her abdominal muscle, I showed it to vet last time and we think it is from the way she stands or should I say don't stand. He thought it was possible that's why her cpk was slightly elevated. She does not have heaves. He did listen to her lungs just to make sure and they were good. I don't know if that makes a difference I could take a pic of it if you'd like. She almost looks as if she's gant up. I don't know Dr.O should she & I just grin and bear it. Is 5000i.u. of vit. E enough? |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Thursday, Mar 16, 2006 - 10:58 am: Well Dr.O. we are having a winter storm here today so I have extra time today. So I was investigating stay apparatus and came across a few articles that said high heels can interfere with it. The last time the farrier was here (march 7th) I told him to please take the heel down on her as she was starting to look club footed. Coincidently this was the day before the legend shot and when the vet came out to give her the shot he remarked on how she was moving much better. (before the shot). I can almost understand how high heels COULD cause this. I cropped a pic of her rear feet from feb.14th and they do look horrible. See what you think. Could this be my problem. He did take off some heel, but they still don't look right to me. If you'd like I could get a pic of how they look now. When I cleaned her feet yesterday her bars looked weird also I did have him trim those also as they looked overgrown to me.
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| Member: Juliem |
Posted on Thursday, Mar 16, 2006 - 10:40 pm: Diane, in the photo the hoof with the white looks as if the hairline along the coronet is "wavy" as opposed to straight like the one on the black foot. Is that correct? I think sometimes that's an indication the hoof isn't properly balanced, but I don't have any solid basis for that. I have seen it straighten out pretty quickly with better trimming. The hoof/pastern axis on that foot looks "off" in this photo as well.Now, as an aside, I have a gelding that has lately presented with an abcess in his right front. I mention this only because he showed his discomfort by shifting his REAR feet back and forth much like you descibe and sort of swishing (not really switching) his tail. Either just odd or a coincidence, but it stopped when we addressed the abcess. I know, it seems like we're all throwing out senarios here, hoping something makes sense, however unlikely! Sharing your frustration, Julie |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Friday, Mar 17, 2006 - 6:21 am: Thanks Julie, she does do the tail swishing. I have considered an abscess, but she is neg to hoof testers and no heat, plus this has been going on for mos. It is very frustrating. Thanks again |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Mar 17, 2006 - 7:44 am: Because of the obliqued angle and that we cannot see further up the leg it is very hard to judge these photos. The pastern on the horse's right seems to have an anterior swelling and the left appears to have a broken hoof pastern axis and if we assume this is not artifactual yes it is because of long heel/short toe wear or trimming. How about some good conformation shots from each side and the front with the camera close to the ground as the feet are now. Be sure to include the cannons in the shots.DrO |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Friday, Mar 17, 2006 - 8:06 am: Thanks Dr.O. Can a high heel interfere with the stay apparatus? The stinkin snow and mud is back so hopefully I can get some decent pics. I'll try Thanks again |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Friday, Mar 17, 2006 - 9:40 am: The 2nd pic is a close up of fetlock that seems to have swelling, sorry the pics aren't better but it is hard to get pictures of a shifting horse.   
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| Member: Juliem |
Posted on Friday, Mar 17, 2006 - 4:31 pm: I guess I wasn't clear Diane. What I found interesting was that he was shifting his rears in response to pain in a front leg. I agree. you're definitely not dealing with an ordinary abcess. I just found it odd that my horse was standing quiet and square in front and shifting constantly in the back as a response to the pain in the front. Sorry I wasn't clear. Julie |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Friday, Mar 17, 2006 - 5:40 pm: No Julie I understood you, actually my gelding had an abscess that lasted all summer and he never hoof tested sore either. He did have heat tho. Her fronts have also been checked as I am well aware of sometimes compensation lameness is sometimes worse then the original lameness. When the farrier was here last week I told him to check for any abscess tracks(in all feet), he found none. I am fairly certain this is originating in her back end, but with horses who knows! Her left rear seems worse(the black one) BUT she does point her right front and move it about some too. Any thing is possible and I will investigate it further. I hope it ia as simple as an abscess, even tho they are a terrible pain. Also when my gelding had his abscess bute didn't touch it. It blew out his cornet band, his heel and his sole. Needless to say I couldn't ride him for mos. That's how long it took. HMMM well I will check in to it further and Thanks. |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Friday, Mar 17, 2006 - 5:45 pm: You know I just realised I have my left and right mixed up (my husband always says No your other right) So its her right rear that is worse and she points her left front. GEEEES sorry |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Saturday, Mar 18, 2006 - 7:58 am: I don't think this is an abscess but I am afraid in all this information there is nothing diagnostic for the cause of the weight shifting. But after looking at these photos they suggest that the fetlocks maybe DrOpped from weakened suspensories or flexor tendons so I would put that back on the list of possibilities. Diane you need to find someone who can examine this horse and give you better objective information than what you have now maybe it is time for a second opinion.DrO |
| Member: Lilly |
Posted on Saturday, Mar 18, 2006 - 10:50 am: Diane,Have you considered ultrasounds on those back legs? It seems like that would provide some information about the suspensories and tendons that Dr.O is concerned about. If you have already gotten ultrasounds and posted it above then I appologize for not noticing. Ann |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Mar 18, 2006 - 3:49 pm: Thanks Dr.O. just one more question IF theses are weakened susp or fetlocks DrOpping there is nothing that can be done anyway Right? IF that is the cause is exercise better or worse for her? I have been lightly exercising her and don't want to worsen anything.The closest ultrasound machine is 150 mi. and $800 away so ain't gonna happen. For now I will keep an eye on her, but I would appreciate an answer about the exercise and do what I can to keep her comfortable. It don't seem to bother her.(exercise) I don't ride her just a little lunge and run around the pasture. Thanks |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Mar 19, 2006 - 6:28 am: Sorry Dr.O. this will be my last post on this mare unless something drastic changes. The vet said we could x-ray would that show anything? Also I have looked back thru pictures of her from 2003 on and that swelling on the black leg was there. So maybe this is dsld that is just getting worse. On her first examine the vet said her suspensories palpated ok no heat or swelling, but that was a few mos. ago. I did bring up dsld to him, but he thought no. However with further investigation into the disease it is quite possible as she has gotten more post legged. I don't know if her weight loss is because of their diet or her not feeling well, her appetite is good accept when on bute. She still needs to lose more weight so will remain on the diet. I know dsld would affect horses differently, but on the website Ann provided earlier and other places suggest going downhill is hard for them, however uphill seems to be her struggle. Also in the pics of the dsld horses alot of them have a back leg propped, she can not do that. I know the diagnostics around here aren't the greatest. (vets just got an x-ray machine). Thank you for all your help and hopefully she can remain somewhat comfortable. She seems to be alright for now.(except the weight shifting) |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Sunday, Mar 19, 2006 - 9:20 am: Pasture rest is probably best.DrO |
| Member: Lilly |
Posted on Sunday, Mar 19, 2006 - 10:01 am: Diane,If you are starting to think this is DSLD then you may want to go back to the DSLD website that I suggested and join their Yahoo! chat list. The members have a lot of experience managing the pain associated with suspensory problems. I don't agree with all of their suggestions but you can pick and choose what you think may work for your horse. The group is also very active in documenting DSLD cases. Is your horse registered? You may be able to get funds from them to pay for x-rays or ultrasounds. They provided me with over $400 to pay for ultrasounds. Also, you may want to check out the current posts to the thread "DSLD and Patten shoes". I put a link to a story about my friend's thoroughbred who had DSLD. He was in so much pain that he was going to be put down until the vet suggested Patten shoes. The use of the shoes extended his life by 8 years! His feet were elevated and then gradually (over days) lowered. Eventually he went barefoot. She was even given the green light to ride again. This is where I disagree with the DSLD website. They say no shoes at all - barefoot only. I disagree. I keep my horse in four shoes. You may also come across different opinions when it comes to turnout. Some people will say that pasture turn out is best, others will say that being confined to a small paddock is better. I believe that what it boils down to is quality of life. How do you want your horse's last years played out? Running in a pasture and damaging his legs further or hanging out in a small paddock with restricted movement and less stress on his legs. It's tough but you have to follow your heart and do what you think is best for YOUR horse. Ann |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Mar 19, 2006 - 1:38 pm: Thanks Ann, I have been reading your thread. My horse(pony) actually is not registered. I believe I will allow her pasture with her buddies, actually she gets around real well. Consisdering she is 26 I am going to continue the legend shots, they SEEM to help, and manage pain with bute occasionaly and consider shoes I will see how it all plays out. Thank you for the websites and concern. |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Monday, Mar 27, 2006 - 9:20 am: Hi, Dr.O. for some reason I can't just ignore this mares symptoms so my research continued. Her profile does reflect many diseases, however I am really leaning toward epsm, after reading many articles, including yours. I studied a few case historys with pics. That weird muscle line, the way they rested their rear legs forward, rather than propping,tight butt muscles, slightly elevated ck, etc. seems to fit better than anything. I started the oil diet, she is already on a low carb diet. I know I am guessing, but can the high oil diet hurt if it is not that? Other than make her fat? Thanks |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Mar 27, 2006 - 6:46 pm: No, not as long as you follow our recommendations that help replace other important nutrients.DrO |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Thursday, Mar 30, 2006 - 7:32 am: Hi, I have carried on this thread under lameness> muscle and tendon diseases> EPSM as I believe that is what my mare has. |
| Member: Suzeb |
Posted on Thursday, Mar 30, 2006 - 9:49 pm: Hello Diane,Here is where you went. . I have been following your post and had the EPSM suspicion, but wanted to see how everything played out. Will keep following on your new thread and best of luck. |
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