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  Discussion on Toxic Levels of Aluminum and Iron
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Member:
Aannk

Posted on Thursday, Feb 23, 2006 - 10:56 am:

That is what came back from Lilly's hair analysis. She had 5 times what a normal horse would have for both those. I have a consultation included with the analysis and I will ask what could have caused that, but the symptoms describe her. The only thing I saw from a web search is that the most common cause in humans is overusage of anti acids. Lilly IS on an anti acid, TractGard. I wonder if this is the problem? I am going to ask my vet to do a blood workup on her too, to see if that also shows this.
Alicia
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Feb 24, 2006 - 7:42 am:

We have had some very odd reports over the years of what folks have gotten back on hair analysis Alicia. Which symptoms are you talking about and what are the ingredients in the TractGard?
DrO
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Monday, Feb 27, 2006 - 10:34 am:

Dr. O.,
Well, basically she is a very hard keeper and seems depressed about 25 percent of the time. She also is constantly stiff in the hind end. Not to the point of lameness, but too much to be "just her". Plus, she IS not ideal in her hind conformation in that her angles are straighter than perfect (maybe 10 percent straighter than perfect) and that she has a long weak loin (probably about 25 percent longer than it should be). She has EPSM and gets alfalfa pellets, alfalfa hay, and pellets for her food, she hates grain unless it is sweet feed, so she gets no grain. She is in good weight right now, probably a 6 on the condition scale, but she never seems to build a really nice muscle mass on her topline, except for her neck, which is nicely muscled. She did race, 21 times between the ages of 2 and 4, then was fox hunted for another year before I bought her.
She also seems to get skin conditions easier than other horses at our place and seems to just get sick more often in general.
This may all be related to her EPSM, but I just wanted to try this analysis to see if anything blaring came out, and it appears something has. The thing is, she gets the same water and hay as the other horses at our place, and not everyone has the same symptoms. Of course, there are only 4 horses at our place who have been there for more than a year. Of them, three are in similar shape to Lilly, but one is totally different. The other two are a lot older, though, and one has an old hip injury which makes him depressed.
So, I don't know if this is something in the "air" at the barn or maybe the supplement I am giving is causing it. Guinness was fine and he lived there for a long time too. We did have one horse die in a strange way there who had lived there for a while a few years ago. He just went from being fine to dead from something neurological in about 4 days. No one else got sick, though.
I could forward you the analysis if you want.
Alicia
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Monday, Feb 27, 2006 - 10:36 am:

Oh sorry, the ingredients in the TractGuard are as follows. These are the amounts in 1 ounce, the daily dosage.
Calcium carbonate – rough 5700 mg
Diamond V yeast – rough 5700 mg
Magnesium sulfate – rough 560 mg
Potassium chloride – rough 5700 mg
Sodium sesquiscarbonate – rough 5700 mg
Alicia
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 28, 2006 - 7:53 am:

No aluminum products at all, so where is she coming into contact with this stuff? I don't need the whole report, what were the levels of Al and iron? Be sure to include the units.
DrO
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 28, 2006 - 2:12 pm:

The level of Iron is 11.5 Mg/100g and the level of Aluminum is 5.5 Mg/100g. Normal for iron is between 4.2 and 7.8 and normal for aluminum is 1.5.
Alicia
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 28, 2006 - 6:23 pm:

Do you give any other vitamins, Alicia? Too much folic acid has been reported to cause iron retention, and seems I read something about too much Vitamin C as well. Do you give large quantities of any treats that could be high in folic acid (for example, oranges?) There is a human disease where iron builds up to toxic levels with just ordinary intake. It sure sounds like something being ingested could be causing this imbalance. When excess iron builds up in the system it can take quite some time to get it out. The aluminum sounds like a true mystery and have to wonder about contamination of some product being ingested.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 1, 2006 - 8:22 am:

In the research I can find on levels of these in healthy horses both iron and aluminum can be considerably higher than 15 mg/100g and your levels fall well within the ranges of this report. J Vet Med Sci. 2002 Jul;64(7):607-10. Concentrations of toxic metals and essential minerals in the mane hair of healthy racing horses and their relation to age.

There are some age effects on levels but if there are healthy horses out there with levels of these minerals 3 times (300%) higher than what your horse has it seems unlikely that this is a cause of illness.
DrO
Member:
Brandi

Posted on Thursday, Mar 2, 2006 - 10:23 pm:

Don't anyone think I'm crazy, this is just a question, but Alicia, does your horse happen to wear Aluminum shoes? I know some folks (start with George Eby, the "gallium nitrate for navicular" guy) who feel very strongly that Aluminum ions from shoes can "be absorbed" in some sense, into the feet and cause problems, that it can affect bone density as the Aluminum binds with other ions, preventing their use in bone formation or remodeling, or something like that. If this is true in any sense, the leap to it affecting blood levels of Aluminum can't be that far out, right? What do you think Dr. O.? Too much of a stretch?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Mar 3, 2006 - 12:31 pm:

Too much of a stretch, millions of horses have worn Al shoes with no such problems reported.
DrO
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Friday, Mar 3, 2006 - 8:02 pm:

Brandi,
No, she has never worn al shoes, she wears front steels. Those are some of the issues they reported with the high levels, though.
Well, to all, I had my consulation this AM. They said most horses have aluminum and she probably gets it in the air, but she isn't able to wash it out as easily as others, and her ratios are really the problem, not just the Al. The values were actually parts per 100,000, not what I said. The chart was confusing.
They of course recommended a vitamin, and I am going to try it, as well as stopping her current vitamin. Comes to about the same (their supplement is custom, so I won't have to give her the vit E selenium and probiotic either). We will see if she changes. If she doesn't I will probably go back to what I am doing now, as it is a bit cheaper.
Thanks!
Alicia
New Member:
444444

Posted on Saturday, Mar 4, 2006 - 3:22 pm:

Brandi,
I have a cushings horse who foundered when he was able to have shoes glued on we used Nanrics Alum rail shoes, within one week he had alum toxicity. I immediately pulled the shoes put him back in his rubber boots then the farrier made him steel shoes to replicate the Nanrics shoe. I believe because of his compromised immune system the alum became toxic in his system. He has been in his steel shoes for a year and doing great...just reset yesterday and the farrier commented on how great he's moving, turning, stepping over... Sue
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Mar 4, 2006 - 5:32 pm:

Sue what were your signs of toxicity? The immune system would have no effect on metalotoxicity and any absorption of aluminum into the blood through the keratin of the hoof is very hard to understand.

As millions of others did I grew up on food cooked in aluminum pots and pans and stored in aluminum foil and although some question the practice now a days, I don't know anyone who becaume ill from the practice. I don't think horses are more sensitive than humans to exposure to aluminum and the exposure from food stored and cooked in aluminum would be much greater than worn on the foot. The idea of horses being poisoned by their aluminum shoes is...how can I be diplomatic here...very unlikely.
DrO
New Member:
444444

Posted on Saturday, Mar 4, 2006 - 6:56 pm:

Thanks for jumping in DrO. I too grew up with Alum pans (still use some!) He became very ouchy on his front feet, lethargic, walked like he was drunk and wanted to lay down a lot. It all started a few days after shoeing, within a week he was much worse. The shoes and the glue + filler were ONLY change in his care AND once they were pulled he was better within two days. When he was well enough for the hand made steel shoes they too were glued on with the filler, there was no reaction. So the shoes became the only thing that seemed to be the issue.
It really doesn't matter if you think this is unlikely... it is what I believe happened to my Little Big Man. I will dig through my files and find the tox report.
It is also my belief that if a human, horse or dog has a compromised immune system they can become hypersensative to a whole lot of things that may not otherwise bother a human, horse or dog with a healthy immune system. He is an extremely emotional equine (very different than my other five) a difficult keeper with a heart of gold. I am grateful for every day he is with me as his vet had given up on him when he foundered and rotated so badly. A new vet, expert farrier and lots of tlc he is not only here but seemingly glad to be!
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Mar 4, 2006 - 7:51 pm:

Both sides of this conversation make sense to me but do sincerely believe individuals -- human or otherwise, can have more extreme reactions to small amounts of metal in their systems, and aluminum is one of the worst to cause problems. It can be like "the straw that broke the camel's back." With humans, if you have a lot of metal in your mouth, copper and lead in your water pipes, health problems to begin with, and maybe a garage built-in under your house that sends toxic fumes into your environment daily, you may not be able to tolerate any more overload, even if you are basically healthy. There are trace amounts of toxins in almost everything we use -- food (even our breakfast cereals contain trace amounts of benzene), all soaps we put on our bodies or in our wash waters, toothpaste, deoderant, mouthwash, building materials, things we never even question or think about, but they all have a cumulative effect, though in each product it seems miniscule.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Mar 5, 2006 - 11:09 am:

Sue, I agree the shoes were the problem but it had nothing to do with the aluminum and everything to do with either the fitting or nail placement. Researching all the veterinary literature for the last 50 years I cannot find any cases remotely like this but I will see many horses this year that are sore because of poor trims or ill footing shoes.
DrO
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Monday, Mar 6, 2006 - 3:09 am:

My Navicular mare had some Aluminum Egg bar shoes put on years ago that were horrible on her. But it wasn't the Aluminum, it was the shape of the shoe that was bad. I can't count the reiners with Aluminum sliders that do fantastic.
She had regular heart bar shoes also. She did just as poorly. It just happened that her heels couldn't tolerate ANY bar shoes. Her flexible degree rim pads suit her perfectly now.
I have a nickel allergy. To me, nickel is an evil metal. Yet I can't claim that people should all wear only stainless steel or platinum jewelry.
Working as a dental hygienist since 1968, I've encountered the mercury controversy. There was a time when many people demanded composite fillings to replace their amalgam fillings. People were frightened by news reports that amalgam fillings were causing nearly everything. Especially MS. Dentists stood to make a fortune replacing amalgam fillings with the more expensive composite. Well, after studies were done, it was found that larger amounts of mercury were aborbed by drilling out old mercury fillings and creating mercury dust in the mouth, than by leaving old fillings alone.
I guess I'm one of those people who has to see the research. Others will have to do what makes them comfortable.
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