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  Discussion on Abdominal Pain
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Member:
Dsibley

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 28, 2006 - 4:00 pm:

I know this is getting old, but I still need help. My 4-y/o Quarter Horse gelding, Mister, is still having episodes of abdominal pain. He will show no signs of distress and then suddenly begin biting at his sides, flanks and front legs. He will mule-kick violently (nothing behind him), and if in his stall has actually kicked thru the side of the stall. This will last from 30 seconds to several minutes. Then it passes and he is fine.

I initially thought ulcers might be the cause, as he is on the nervous side and will weave in his stall on occasion. I had him scoped about a month ago, and his gut was clear of ulcers. At that time, the vet said he thought he was maybe getting just a mild bellyache that would pass...kinda like gas pains in us. He had me put him on a scoop of wheat bran along with his regular feed, and also a small amount of electrolytes to ensure enough water. I also put a couple of squirts of sweet oil on the bran, as it was sifting thru the grain, and he would leave most of it. Vet said that was fine, just watch his weight.

Six days after the scope, he was down in his stall. No thrashing, but he would groan each time I walked in, and would shift from one side to the other frequently. I haltered him and got him up, led him to the arena where he pooped (good sign) took three more steps and laid out flat. He stayed down until about 30 seconds before the vet got there. By the time Doc came in the barn, Mister was up and waiting for him. Grrr...normal gut sounds, respiration and temp. He did a rectal, plenty of poo left there. No obvious impaction or anything.

Sorry for the length of this post, but I wanted you to get a good idea of what is going on. The behavior occurs both indoors or out. It got much better after the laying-down episode, but now has recurred, with no change in diet. They have not been on pasture, he's drinking plenty of water (and I am very careful about not too much electrolytes) no one else has problems with the hay. He gets a good alfalfa, Strategy and oats which have all been approved by the vet in quantity and quality. Mostly outdoors except sometimes at night, or bad weather. Well-ventilated barn, plenty of interaction and herd-thing with others. No other physical problems we can find. I have never seen one of the episodes associated with urination, nor is it timed with meals. Last night's performance was just before dinner, and sometimes he does it during, or after meals.

Help!!
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 1, 2006 - 2:05 am:

Diane, if you find out, let me know. My 11 yr. old QH mare ( large dose of TB ), went down last Sat. about 2 hrs. before dinner. She refused dinner, so we called the vet. She called back in about 1 hr. at which time, Lola, my mare was down, on her belly, pinched nostrils, and grunting moans with each breath. Her heart rate was elevated ( 48 ). She occasionally looked back at her side. She did not roll or thrash. Just lay fairly still on her belly. Vet was busy at track,and felt, as we did, that it was colic ( horse has never, ever, been ill - I know her whole history ). Administered Banamine - horse up and comfortable about an hour and a half later. Soaked some soft hay, and she began to nibble - heart rate and breathing normal. Checked and comfortable thru the night at 11:00PM, 2:00AM, and 4:00AM. By 7:00AM, on Sun. vet arrives, mare not eating, pawing, elevated heart and resp. Vet tubes, examines, rectal - good stool, no abnormalities, mare passed normal stool and "water" during night. More Banamine, mare good all day, but only nibbles at hay. Down again 6:00PM. Vet: Banamine again, and watch all night. Horse comfortable again, nibbles hay but painful again by Mon. AM. Vet tubes again, horse still passing and stool normally. Resp and heart rate elevated, palpates normal, no temp. Teeth fine. No sweating during this whole episode. Banamine again - mare OK all day. Early evening - down again, on stomach no thrashing or rolling - still. Hydration good, gingiva normal, feet fine - no heat or tenderness. Vet comes and arranges for hospitalization. That's where she is now. She went in Mon. eve. They've been all over her like glue - they can find nothing. Prelim. CBC - normal. Sonogram, normal. Extreme palpation - normal. She's been up the whole time while there...but she RARELY lies down. No pain meds. She did spike a temp. of 101.6 during the night - but it came down without meds. Resp. and heart normal and they are super hydrating her - I think to help her gut to move. By the way, when in pain, extremely diminished gut sounds. But they returned with pain meds. on board, when she was home. Of course, at the clinic, gut sounds are normal. This AM, they gave her a small bran mash, her first food, basically since Sat. AM. They are planning a scope tomorrow. I don't like this. I'm terrified to bring her home without a diagnosis. I hope the scope shows something. Horses can go bad in an instant.

So...like you I wait for an answer. Good luck, Diane, to you and Mister, my thoughts and prayers will be with you both.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 1, 2006 - 6:21 am:

Hello Diane and Lee,
I went and read your previous posts and there is a lot of pertinent information in there so I will see if I can get it moved to this discussion so folks have the whole history.

There are 2 points about your colic that need to be addressed:
1) There is not enough information in your post to even begin guessing what might be wrong. The only thing we know is his tummy bothers him and that there are dozens of possibilities that are not ruled out. To see a list of management and disease possibilities and some ways to differentiate them see Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Colic in Horses » An Overview of Colic. If your veterinarian continues to not find the cause for this I would make one recommendation. Even though the hay looks good as a experiment I would switch from straight alfalfa to a alfalfa / grass mix by substituting the grass slowly. And if that did not correct the problem substitute oil for the oats at the rate of 1/2 by weight. This should cut down some on gas production.

2) As long as the colic episodes remain mild you may be able to handle these without the expense of calling the veterinarian. For more on this see Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Colic in Horses » First Aid for Colic.

Lee there is not much to add to your post. The article on diagnosis may help you think of some of the possibilities too. Let us know the scope results. The periods of completely normal findings between the episodes suggest this may work out OK.
DrO
Member:
Dsibley

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 1, 2006 - 12:30 pm:

Thanks, Dr. O. I will read the articles again and see if I can find any hint of something there. I took him off Strategy yesterday, at the direction of the vet, and will gradually work him up to same weight of straight oats. He suggested that it might be the Strategy. The barn was feeding more alfalfa hay, but due to DrOught here they ran out of that and had to start using more grass-alfalfa mix. That started about a week and a half ago. Should I maybe try to find straight orchard grass/timothy? He had another episode last night. And has almost kicked down the front of his stall. It's a wonder he hasn't hurt his legs...I'm sure that's next. They're going to try to keep him out as much as possible.
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 1, 2006 - 9:42 pm:

Ulcers....riddled with ulcers. Thank God she's at the clinic. She was ( acting ) 100% up until Sat. afternoon. We've had her 3years. The clinic asked if we gave her Bute or Banamine long term: no, about a year and a half ago, we gave some Bute AM and PM for a lameness problem - but that was only for 4 days. Vets say ulcers are small, but numerous, and in both parts of the stomach. This mare is fit and in great weight. Since she is not in heavy work, just light arena work and long trail walks, she gets a half scoop Nutrena Kwik 2x a day, and Farriers Formula in PM. Psyllium ( we're in sandy area ) 1st week of the month. During fly season, they all get Equitrol. We just started the Quest year of worming. Of course, with Clinic, fecal was checked - negative. The horses are out 24/7 with free feed Timothy - grass mix hay. We leave their outside stall doors open to a 2acre "barn paddock" and they have automatic waterers in their stalls. In really bad weather, we lock their outside doors and open the inside sliders to the "indoor barn paddock". So, they always have hay, and can always move around. Spring, summer and fall, they also have good quality grass pasture on about 2 acres which is carefully rotated.

The only change has been a new mare we got in Dec. She has been an extremely well behaved animal, and we began to put them together in Jan. My two mares really got after her at first, but then she began to take the alfa position. Nothing really bad, mainly ear pinning, bouncy rear, and typical nips. Very mild. But still, I separate them whenever I replenish the hay during the day so they all can eat in a calm ( pampered ) atmosphere. When the interest in the hay wanes, they all "hang" together. There is no really aggressive behavior. I've SEEN bad behavior with the introduction of a new horse, this was really mild - not even "mare" screams. Could this have upset Lola enough to have her "riddled with small ulcers"? And it just hit her - Bang! Right up to Sat. afternoon she was perfectly normal.

No plans to bring her home yet, not until she's comfortable. Last I spoke to vets, they started her on ulcer guard - immediately after scope.
Well, now I guess it's wait and see. I know they want to see how things go with her eating. Since Sat. afternoon, all she's had is about 2 flakes of hay, and a bran mash. Not that she didn't TRY, but once she'd get the Banamine and get comfortable, she'd nibble awhile, and I guess - as soon as it hit her poor stomach, she'd go down.
Shucks, what a bummer. She suffers so quietly and politely.
I'll keep you posted.
Member:
Dsibley

Posted on Thursday, Mar 2, 2006 - 6:56 am:

I am so sorry for you/her! But at least you found the problem. I'm still stabbing away. These critters...
(I gripe, but last night I got a horsey hug, and it made everything all better for me. He is such a big love...even though he's driving me crazy. And believe me, the trip is not a long one :-)
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Mar 2, 2006 - 8:02 am:

It is good to have a hook to hang your diagnostic hat on. Good luck with the treatment, if this is the problem you should be fine as long as you treat long enough.
DrO
PS Sorry for the confusing earlier post (now deleted) we were doing some testing.
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Thursday, Mar 2, 2006 - 6:28 pm:

Lee
The Gastrogard has worked wonders for my horse with ulcers!!! AND, to let you know that your horse did not have to be "upset" at all for the ulcers to appear! I bet with the Gastrogard, and some feed routine changes, you will have a happy, healthy horse once again! I now pretty much keep hay in front of my guy (mornin', noon, night , and before I go to bed around 11pm), and split up his feeding of grain to three times a day instead of two. He gets much less grain now, and his weight is just fine, even though he actually eats less, because he eats more hay.
I bet you will be astonished at how quickly your horse comes around, BUT, be sure to treat the whole 60 days that I think the company recommends ... your vet will tell you, I'm sure!
Good luck and God's speed with your guy's healing!
From one with ulcers to another,
Nancy
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Thursday, Mar 2, 2006 - 8:35 pm:

Thanks guys, I really am glad it's something treatable. What really bummed me out was the fact that she was a bit girthy, and protective of her sides, from behind the ribs to the stifle. We figured it had to do with her show career and quick tack changes and we could get her over her touchiness. She's so sweet, that all her touchiness was just a swishing tail, clenched gut muscles and stamp a back foot ( NOT KICK - kicking is too unladylike for her ). Ulcers had crossed my mind last year....but she didn't seem to be bothered enough. Could I have saved her a year of suffering? Did she have to go down and stop eating before I woke up? I guess I just need some time to beat myself up......and to hear some good outcome experiences from all you great people.
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Thursday, Mar 2, 2006 - 8:57 pm:

Lee
DO NOT beat yourself up ... so many people cry ulcers that I really get tired of all that "claim" ulcers to be the culprit in so many instances from bad coat condition to the inability to canter correctly ( which actually can be signs of ulcers, but so can inadequate diet and/or training). SO, you did the RIGHT and TIMELY thing by scoping when the condition worsened! I'll be your one woman support group until all the others who have ulcerated horses chime in. I say, "way to go, girl." You figured out what was wrong, and now you can fix it!
Nancy
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Friday, Mar 3, 2006 - 1:34 am:

Aid gladly and humbly accepted! You warmed my discouraged heart!
Member:
Martina

Posted on Friday, Mar 3, 2006 - 8:37 am:

Lee, once the Ulcer Gard is started, you will see a dramatic change in your horse's attitude that continues to improve throughout the 28-day cycle. "Best practice" is to continue to treat another 4 weeks with a maintenance dose. The results are truly astounding. She is on the road to recovery, so now just give her time to come back. You can use the time to learn more about ulcers and prevention. Good luck!
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Friday, Mar 3, 2006 - 7:04 pm:

Thanks Tina - you betcha I'll be learning.

Today, the clinic says she is much improved. She may be able to come home tomorrow. The clinic seems to want to have her treated for the 28 day course and then bring her back for another scope. I'm assuming that they will probably tell me at that time, to continue the four extra weeks at 1/2 dose. I understand why they would like to confirm that the ulcers are gone, but I'm worried about dragging her all the way up there ( about 2hrs.) and home again just to look when we seem to KNOW that the 4 wks extra are necessary. I hesitate to put her through all that stress if it isn't imperative, especially now that I know about the ulcers. What do you think Dr.O? Should I take a chance and ask them that if Lola is comfortable, can we just continue on maintenance dosage and give her a few peaceful months? Actually, it was also terrible on my 26yr old Cushings mare. We had to give HER a couple doses of ACE because she kept screaming, running and sweating in 25 - 33 degree weather. I guess I should go mirror shopping, huh?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Mar 4, 2006 - 1:31 pm:

Considering the hassle/expense of rechecking and typical course of therapy I think it is reasonable to ask to do the 4/4 at reduced dosage course and skip the recheck.
DrO
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Monday, Mar 6, 2006 - 1:26 am:

Thanks Dr.O And Diane, I'm sorry for hijacking your discussion. The scenario sounded so similar.

Lola came home Saturday. So far, it's like Tina and Nancy said...she's much better. She's on Gastroguard and Sucralfate - 10 pills 3x a day. I can see how the Sucralfate ties in but I'm not exactly clear on what it specifically does. She'll be on it for 10 days. She backed off the trailer terrified - probably wondering what awful place she would find herself in THIS time. I don't think she could believe that she was home. When she got in the paddock, she took about 3 steps and then her knees buckled and she just rolled and rolled. The clinic had trouble getting her to eat anything but slowly, throughout Saturday, she began to nibble more and more. Today, Sunday, she ate well, although we're building her back to full ration slowly. She passed much of the day stretched out in the sun sleeping, with the other 2 mares close by. I don't know who is happier that she's home, Lola, the other two mares, or us. Thanks guys, the clinic helped Lola: you guys helped me.
Member:
Dsibley

Posted on Monday, Mar 6, 2006 - 11:13 am:

Lee, I'm so glad you found an answer. Sorry it's ulcers, but at least it is clear-cut. In my case, Mister seems much better since I've taken him off the Strategy. Maybe that's what it was...and if that is the answer I will never forgive myself. You think you're doing the right thing...

Now question for Dr. O...two vets have recommended adding wheat bran to his ration to help 'fluff' manure and make it easier to work thru the system. Articles I have been reading indicate that this might interfere with the delicate phosphorous/calcium levels. He is currently getting one scoop twice a day. Is this enough to cause a problem long-term?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Mar 6, 2006 - 5:39 pm:

Diane the Ca/P balance thing is really very robust and not delicate at all, but with work you can get it can get out of wack particularly for the growing. Since you feed alfalfa hay (high in calcium) it is very unlikely this much bran will unbalance things. To study more on this see Care for Horses » Nutrition » Calcium, Phosphorus in the Diet. On the other hand bran's laxative properties are said to greatly overrated, alfalfa actually loosens more stools in my experience.
DrO
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Monday, Mar 6, 2006 - 6:15 pm:

Diane -- Have heard a recommendation using flax seed for this. If the goal is to make the manure softer you can feed the flaxseed whole by adding it to the grain ration. If you also want it for the other nutritional qualities, it is good to grind it daily. It has a very brief shelf life once it is ground. Bran is quite high in protein, and I think pretty overrated in many ways. During the past decade or so bran seems to have fallen out of favor with a lot of Vets and nutritionalists. My guys digestion (colics and indigestion) was better all around when I quit the weekly bran mashes. If you are interested in the flax seed approach, let me know and I will look up how much to start with and build up to as a dosage. It is good to buy the organic flax seed, and if the point of origin is Canada, which most of it is -- that IS organic according to what I've been told, whether labeled as such or not.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 7, 2006 - 8:15 am:

It seems to be a flax seed morning and having just researched this I believe I can get this right. You should only feed heat processed flax seed and not that which has been simply ground or pressed. For more on this see Care for Horses » Nutrition » Fats and Oils in the Diet of Horses.
DrO
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 7, 2006 - 8:16 pm:

The recommendation for softening manure, and thereby aiding digestion by the use of flax seed is to give a cup of whole flax seed twice daily. If I were doing this, I think I would work up to the amount gradually rather than all at once. The whole seed will pass through for the most part, serving as roughage without being digested that much. Also important is a continual source of fresh water and plenty of good quality plain salt (preferably loose as it is hard to get all needed from a block, especially as horses get older and have to really work on the block. Do not expect them to get enough salt from a block that also contains other minerals because they may get overloaded with the other minerals and quit eating before getting the salt needed.) Flax seed has other good qualities -- Omega 3 fatty acid supplementation, but to receive these benefits you must grind it and serve immediately or buy the oil fresh and store it in the refrigerator. -- 2 1/2 - 4 Tbs drizzled on the feed, twice daily depending on size of the horse.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 8, 2006 - 7:36 am:

Hello Vicki,
continuing to research the literature I have not been able to find any laxative properties attributable to flax in horses. While small amounts of flax may add significant amounts of fiber to a human's diet, and thereby increase fecal bulk and moisture, it is not likely to do much for a horses largely forage (high fiber) diet. I have seen where in humans flax oil is used for chronic constipation there is no evidence that this is effective.

Also as far as we know the horses diet does not need supplementation of omega-3/-6 fatty acids. Attempts at inducing essential f.a. deficiencies have been unable to demonstrate a need for these in the diet of the horse. I wonder if microbial digestion in the cecum does not produce them in sufficient quantity for the needs of the horse.

Feeding properly prepared flax and flax oil is fine if it fits into the nutritional makeup of the rest of your diet. But it is the protein, energy, and (to the degree you cannot find other forages) the fiber that should be looked at when deciding. Yes, there is some suggestion animals with chronic inflammatory disease may be benefited from the use of flax oils but the scientific evidence for this remains weak according to a review of the subject by the Mayo Clinic.
DrO
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 8, 2006 - 12:09 pm:

Thanks for the good information, Dr. O. If continually hard manure is not causing another problem for the animal, perhaps it should be ignored as "normal" for that individual? I've known some people to give a quantity of bran daily to soften hard manure though, and I would probably try the flax seed first, based on the idea of "do no harm." The cup of whole flax seed in the morning and cup at night suggestion is from Karen E.N. Hayes, D.V.M., M.S., book; and she says this "will add sufficient bulk to speed things up a bit in the intestinal tract." As you say, grinding it or giving the oil would be in conjunction with indications it might help fill a nutritional deficit.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Mar 9, 2006 - 6:36 am:

It is hard to say Vicki without looking at the stool and the horse's medical history. As you phrase it "it is not causing a problem" yes it sounds like you could ignore it. Excessively hard dry manure is not a problem I see in a horse that was not related to some transient disease or mis-management factor like making sure there was clean fresh water near the hay. And in such a situation my choice of a temporary stool softner is Epsons Salt. Another way to say it is I don't know any horses that require bran or flax to keep their stools an ideal consistency.
DrO
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