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  Discussion on Rain Rot
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New Member:
Dirigo

Posted on Friday, Mar 3, 2006 - 10:44 am:

I have an 8-year old QH who is battling a horrible case of skin fungus brought on by a skin injury. The vet told me to shampoo the area everyday with a betadine shampoo (active ingredient: povidone iodine 5%). He said the hair should stop falling out after 5-7 days. After 6 days the hair continued to fall out. The bald spot doubled in size and the surrounding hair could easily be pulled out. I took her back to the clinic and saw another vet. The new vet told me that iodine shampoo is not strong enough to treat this skin fungus. She gave me a prescription shampoo called Dermazole. The active ingredients are Miconazole 2% and salicylic acid 2%. I am to shampoo the area daily with Dermazole and then spray with tinactin. It's been 3 days and my horse continues to lose hair. I read your article about treating rain rot, and now I am concerned that I'm not treating the area properly. Last night I ran out to my horse and sprayed the bald spot and surrounding hair with betadine. I'm not sure if the betadine irritated her, but she must have been itchy last night because I could tell she'd been scratching the area on a fence post. I have several questions for Dr O.

1. Should I go back to the iodine shampoo, or should I use the prescribed (and very expensive!)Dermazole?

2. I read that you're not sure if Tinactin is effective. It seems to help relieve her itching, so I'd like to continue using it. Can I spray her with Tinactin and Betadine after I shampoo her? I want to make sure that one won't neutralize the other.

3. The latest vet told me to throw out my horse blanket, saddle pad, etc. (approximately $500 worth of items). Is this necessary, or can I safely disinfect these items? I will throw them out if I have to, but I thought it seemed rather extreme.

4. This is a long shot, but I have to ask. My horse has been on Gastrogard for ulcers. She is finishing up the 4-week half-dose treatment. Could the Gastrogard have weakened her immune system and made her susceptible to this fungus?
Member:
Cpacer

Posted on Friday, Mar 3, 2006 - 11:31 am:

Hi John, I've had great success with Shapley's MTG for just about any scab or bald patch--you can practically see the hair grow.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Mar 3, 2006 - 12:29 pm:

Hello John,
Before we answer your questions on treatment what fungus did your veterinarian say your horse has, rainrot is a bacteria.

Concerning the Gastroguard, no I don't think it has anything to do with the skin problem.
DrO
New Member:
Dirigo

Posted on Friday, Mar 3, 2006 - 12:43 pm:

Neither vet ever identified it. They both just said it was a skin fungus. However, I noticed the hair loss picture in your rain rot article looks exactly like the hair coming off my horse, with skin attached to it.
New Member:
Dirigo

Posted on Friday, Mar 3, 2006 - 12:55 pm:

Her hair loss covers her entire flank, and is now creeping up her back and towards her stomach. Five days ago I felt little scabs on her rump. I bathed her rump with the iodine shampoo, pulled off the scabs, and haven't seen them return.

Thanks very much for your prompt reply. I feel like I'm racing against the clock to keep her from completely going bald.
New Member:
Dirigo

Posted on Friday, Mar 3, 2006 - 1:26 pm:

I'm glad to hear that Gastrogard is likely NOT a cause. However, I'm perplexed about how she developed such a horrible condition and wonder if she has an immune deficiency. She is given first-rate care--fed 8 times a day with quality timothy hay plus alfalfa, corn oil (thanks to your ulcer article!), multi-vitamins, brushed daily, ridden 5 times a week. Her initial skin trauma occurred when she and another horse tried to race out a stall door at the same time. She got part of her flank scraped in the process. It scraped nearly every layer of skin, but never bled. Interestingly enough, the initial injury is growing hair back beautifully.
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Friday, Mar 3, 2006 - 3:21 pm:

John,

I agree with cp! I'm a huge fan of Shapley's MTG. We had the beginnings of what we self diagnosed as dermatophillus on 3 of 4 horses and treated it by picking off the scabs and throwing them away, then using betadine scrub and then MTG. Whether it was that combination that worked or not, I guess I can't say 100% for certain, maybe it would have gone away on it's own untreated, but it did go away, whatever it was, and the hair grew back unbelievably fast.
New Member:
Dirigo

Posted on Friday, Mar 3, 2006 - 4:17 pm:

Thanks cp and Sherri for the advice on the Shapley's MTG. I noticed that Valley Vet sells it, and it sounds like something I need. I appreciate it!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Mar 4, 2006 - 7:48 am:

I don't have any experience with the MTG and so suggest you use the therapy described in our article on rainrot, after all we have treated thousands (really thousands) of cases over the years. We prefer chlorhexidine for the difficult cases and bought by the gallon, I bet it is much cheaper than MTG.
DrO
Member:
Dirigo

Posted on Saturday, Mar 4, 2006 - 9:56 am:

Thanks, Dr O. I think my horse is FINALLY starting to kick her immune system into gear. This is the first day I have not been able to pull huge clumps of hair off her. For the past two days I have been spraying the area with betadine.

I read in your article about disinfecting brushes, etc. Is there a safe way to disinfect blankets without causing potential skin irritation?
New Member:
Jewel318

Posted on Sunday, Mar 5, 2006 - 5:07 pm:

Hi had a similiar problem in my yard with several horses. Vet did not diagnois Rainrot. Did biospies on one horse but not all horses had exact same symtoms. Skin was scabby on all and in those areas hair fell out in tufts with skin tags usually attached. What we did do that seemed to work was to supplement them with up to 60ml of RAW (not boiled)Linseed Oil available in most paint or hardware stores. I know this did cure the problem because when I took my one mare off of it for a week it came back!! I was told that the Omega fatty acids in the oil are very good for any skin problems. The horses in question have been on linseed for over a year now, I am planning on reducing the dosage in my own horses, (rest are boarders)and will see if the problem comes back... Have found that my mare lacks energy wonder if this calming effect is caused by the linseed?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Mar 5, 2006 - 6:46 pm:

Julie, horses have been poisoned with the use of raw linseed oil (Note there is a correction to this statement below) and I recommend you stop the process and do not recommend the practice to anyone. For more on how this happens see Care for Horses » Nutrition » Fats and Oils in the Diet of Horses. As horses receive adequate amounts of omega fatty acids in a good diet, if this helped it may indicate that your diet was deficient in energy or omega 3's. It is always important to remember that rain rot will cure itself in time making judgement of whether any particular therapy has really helped or not.
DrO
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Monday, Mar 6, 2006 - 4:36 pm:

Dr. O,
Lilly is still struggling with her scratches. Would you recommend the chlorhexidine for her too? I did a preliminary search on it, and it seems to be a dental product. Where could I find it by the gallon for cheap?
Thanks,
Alicia
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Mar 6, 2006 - 7:55 pm:

Alicia post this under where you have discussed this so we can see the history, it will make it easier to judge the next step.
DrO
Member:
Dirigo

Posted on Monday, Mar 6, 2006 - 9:19 pm:

Alicia -
Check out www.valleyvet.com - I think it was ~12.99 a gallon.

v/r
john
New Member:
Jewel318

Posted on Monday, Mar 6, 2006 - 10:10 pm:

Dr. O I am very concerned because the Linseed (RAW) was perscribed by my vet. She works out of the local University and is extremely knowledgeable and educated. I have sent her a copy of your email and the info on nutrition. Hope to here from her soon.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 7, 2006 - 7:31 am:

Julie does the linseed oil label tell how it was processed? When you use the term "raw" it suggests that the oil is pressed without heat inactivation of the enzymes that produce the cyanide. Heat inactivation is what has been recommended for feed additives. Please let us know what you learn from your veterinarian.
DrO
PS: Following my post I went and did some study this morning and found this study:

Adv Exp Med Biol. 1998;434:307-25.
Process-induced compositional changes of flaxseed.
Wanasundara PK, Shahidi F.
Department of Biochemistry, Memorial University of Newfoundland, St. John's, Canada.

Flaxseed has been used as an edible grain in different parts of the world since ancient times. However, use of flaxseed oil has been limited due to its high content of polyunsaturated fatty acids. Nonetheless, alpha-linolenic acid, dietary fiber and lignans of flaxseed have regained attention. New varieties of flaxseed containing low levels of alpha-linolenic acid are available for edible oil extraction. Use of whole flaxseed in foods provides a means to utilise all of its nutrients and require minimum processing steps. However, the presence of cyanogenic glucosides and diglucosides in the seeds is a concern as they may release cyanide upon hyDrOlysis. In addition, the polyunsaturated fatty acids may undergo thermal or autooxidation when exposed to air or high temperatures that are used in food preparation. Studies todate on oxidation products of intact flaxseed lipids have not shown any harmful effects when flaxseed is included, up to 28%, in the baked products. Furthermore, cyanide levels produced as a result of autolysis are below the harmful limits to humans. However, the meals left after oil extraction require detoxification but, by solvent extraction, to reduce the harmful effects of cyanide when used in animal rations. Flaxseed meal is a good source of proteins; these could be isolated by complexation with sodium hexametaphosphate without changing their nutritional value or composition. In addition, the effect of germination on proteins, lipids, cyanogenic glycosides, and other minor constituents of flaxseed is discussed.

I believe it is saying that there is not enough cyanide in the oils to be harmful to humans that only the non-heat processed seed left behind is toxic enough to cause problems. Perhaps your veterinarian knows more about this than I do. Again let us know what she says and thank you for keeping this alive.

Member:
Jockyrdg

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 7, 2006 - 3:47 pm:

Flax seed seems to be a hot commodity these days. I contacted the Canadian Flax council as Canada is one of the largest sources of flax in N.America. They are happy to discuss all aspects including the difference between golden and brown flax seed. I will try to attach their reply to the question of difference between Flax and Linseed oil, raw and boiled. We do a great job of shooting ourselves in the foot with our terminology.

Dear Beverly,

Thank you for your e-mail.

Flax and linseed oils can be differentiated by their production processes and uses.

Flax oil is an edible oil produced by cleaning, cracking and pressing flax seeds under controlled temperatures. Because the maximum allowable temperature during processing of flax oil is 35 degrees C, it is called a cold-pressed oil. Flax oil is usually bottled in amber or dark-coloured bottles, and refrigerated.

Linseed oil, on the other hand, is produced by using solvents to extract the oil from the seed during the crushing process. Sold in raw or boiled form, linseed oil is a main ingredient in paints, stains, coating and linoleum floorings.

You would not want to substitute linseed oil for flax oil.

I hope this information is helpful.



Yours truly,

Monika Haley
Executive Assistant
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 7, 2006 - 7:32 pm:

Thanks Berverly,
I had assumed that flax oil and linseed oil were synonymous but was aware linseed oil was typically used for non-food uses. I had assumed the reason was the cyanide problem but after reading the research paper in my previous post am uncertain and perhaps has to do with traces of solvent left behind. I look forward to Julie's response.

I love it when I learn from this site and one thing is certain any misconceptions I have cannot last long with the much appreciated scrutiny I get from you guys.
DrO
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 7, 2006 - 8:28 pm:

Flax seed has long been popular in my area to help a horse's coat shed out in the Spring -- just a pinch in their grain. In recent years it has been recognized as a help for skin and other problems. It supplies a great source of Omega 3 fatty acid supplementation, and is considered a natural anti-inflammatory that may reduce the requirement by a horse for anti-inflammatory drugs. You can buy the seed whole and grind it, serving it immediately or refrigerate it for short periods of time. You can also buy the oil, which must be very fresh and kept in the refrigerator and protected from light. It has a short shelf life once it is ground. Some commercial feeds contain it in a "stabilized" form. For humans, some nutrition experts believe flax seed is the new wonder food and they suggest grinding it and putting it on top of cereal or yogurt for the anti-oxidant and immune-enhancing effects.
New Member:
Jewel318

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 7, 2006 - 9:31 pm:

Dr.O sorry to say I haven't heard back from my vet as of yet (LOL). Did check the container but it doesn't say how the oil is processed. If I don't get anything from Dr. Ashburner by the end of the week I will call her again. Thanks so much for all the feedback, this is really great stuff!! I love to learn new things and hope others do too.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 7, 2006 - 11:00 pm:

Flax is great added to waffles and pancakes for humans. I've used it for many, many years. In California we were able to find a stabilized flax meal for the horses, but haven't seen it here in Utah. It's easy to grind in the coffee mill.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 8, 2006 - 9:28 am:

Hello All,
continuing to research the literature I have not been able to find any laxative properties attributable to flax in horses. While small amounts of flax may add significant amounts of fiber to a human's diet, and thereby increase fecal bulk and moisture, it is not likely to do much for a horses largely forage (high fiber) diet. I have seen where in humans flax oil is used for chronic constipation but there is no evidence that this is effective.

Also as far as we know the horses diet does not need supplementation of omega-3/-6 fatty acids. Attempts at inducing essential f.a. deficiencies have been unable to demonstrate a need for these in the diet of the horse. I wonder if microbial digestion in the cecum does not produce them in sufficient quantity for the needs of the horse.

Feeding properly prepared flax and flax oil is fine if it fits into the nutritional makeup of the rest of your diet but it is the protein, energy, and (to the degree you cannot find other forages) the fiber that should be looked at when deciding whether this should be part of the diet. Yes there is some suggestion animals, including horses, with chronic inflammatory disease may be benefited from the use of flax oils but the scientific evidence for this remains weak according to a review of the subject by the Mayo Clinic.
DrO
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 8, 2006 - 3:56 pm:

Hi Julie,
Nice to see another Saskatchewanite on board!!! I live near Dundurn. If I'm not mistaken, I think I've even MET you!!!! At a gathering at my neice's (Jen)????
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Thursday, Mar 9, 2006 - 12:12 am:

Dr. O.,
Sorry for the breach of protocol, I will try to remember to repost on my original next week (on travel this week and have limited time on the web).
John,
Thanks!!! I use them a lot anyway, glad to know they provide this as well :-)
Alicia
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Mar 9, 2006 - 7:04 am:

It is not the protocol that is the problem Alicia, though it does help to not mix problems, it is that we can do a better job seeing the past history.
DrO
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Friday, Mar 10, 2006 - 5:37 pm:

Hello John,
I guess it's my turn to chime in here as my horse has gone through the same problem. You can read about it here https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/21052.html.

As you go through the post you will note that my gelding is on the "Raw Linseed Oil" with no ill effects that I can see. I too am eagerly awaiting the vets email about this substance and potential poisoning.

I did not blanket my gelding this winter as per my vets suggestions. I may have to toss out blankets or find some way to clean ???.

The area in which I live; (same as Julie and Sherri) has been plagued with a lot of wet and overcast weather. This is not usual for our part of the world and I feel that this has a contributing factor for the skin conditions that are popping up in this part of the country.

My gelding at present has a little spot here and there on him; but nothing like he had last year.
His hair coat is also longer and more abundant. This guy has a hairy sheath, if you can imagine, and his skin is also oilier.

I hope this helps and if you have more questions or concerns keep asking.

Susan B.
Member:
Dirigo

Posted on Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 - 11:31 am:

Susan,

Thanks for writing. Wow, what an ordeal you went through!! I'm glad to hear your horse is doing better. We can definitely sympathize with the no-neglect part of your post! We always thought this was supposed to happen to undernourished, neglected horses--NOT pampered horses!

An update on our horse, Dirigo. On March 4 we thought our horse was on the road to recovery because she stopped losing hair. Even though we never stopped the baths + daily betadine spray, within 2 days she started to rapidly lose hair again. We took her to our holistic vet who was unavailable at the start of this. He diagnosed an immune deficiency and gave her an immune boosting shot (not sure of the name) and put her on an antioxidant. I also bathe her every other day with Dermazole medicated shampoo. I don't know if it was a coincidence, but within 4 days she stopped losing hair, and "peach fuzz" started growing in her bald spots. This is not the first time this holistic vet has performed "miracles" on our horses/dogs.

Regarding blankets, he told us to disinfect with a mild clorox/water solution. You can't use Clorox II (bleach for colors), though. We noticed on the back of the container that it's not a registered disinfectant. As with you, Susan, we are not supposed to blanket our horse for the rest of the winter. Thank goodness it's almost spring!

By the way, Susan, I thought the comment on your post about vaccinations was interesting. Dirigo, had a bad reaction to Rhino last spring. It does make you wonder how things are connected.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 - 9:31 am:

Ahhh yes the miracle of spring time. John, right now it is the horses that are not loosing hair that are abnormal, at least in the lower and middle latitudes of the Northern Hemisphere and yes the summer coat is beginning to grow in.
DrO
Member:
Dirigo

Posted on Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 - 11:29 am:

Dr O

Yes, we all welcome spring. However, it was the large (approximately 1 x 1 foot) completely bald area on her hip that was continuing to grow across her rump and abdomen that had us concerned. We are happy that the rainrot appears to be curtailed and to see summer coat growth occurring in that area now.
Member:
Jewel318

Posted on Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 - 12:57 pm:

Hi Dr.O I have been in touch with my Vet Sue Ashburner at WCVM Saskatoon, Sask and she assures me the RAW Linseed is quite safe, although she has been out of the office and hasn't read the email you sent. As Sue Bilsky mentioned we have seen an increased hair growth and overall health of coat in all horses that are currently on the Linseed. I must mention again it is important that it be RAW Linseed not BOILED. }
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Mar 13, 2006 - 7:24 am:

Thanks Julie, the linseed oil you buy, is it labeled as a foodstuff? This may get down to differing definitions of linseed vs flax oil. Some further research reveals that the extracting chemical for linseed oil is hexane, not particularly toxic, and very volatile so should be completely removed from the final product. Also a correction to the earlier statement of death caused by linseed oil. I have looked far and wide for that reference and it appears the information in the article we have on this is correct: I cannot find a death caused by using linseed oil. I will edit the above post to reflect this.
DrO
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