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  Discussion on Chronic Founder/Feed and supplements
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Member:
Lsweeney

Posted on Sunday, Apr 2, 2006 - 6:50 pm:

I have a mare that I have been battling chronic founder with for about 10 years. We had several recurrent bouts over the last 5 years, which I now attribute to the acorns on our property. I have been careful with her diet on grass hay. There is a little bit of grass in her pasture, but what she was getting into were acorns.

Right now she is looks pretty good. I do her feet, which always need some frequent adjustment to keep them on track.

My question right now relates to feed. I have to get some new hay. The general consensus is that Alfalfa in CA in bad, Grass Hay = Good. However, in reading the articles over on www.safergrass.org, there is a lot of conflicting information. It appears that there can be more sugar in grass hay than one would expect, and low in alfalfa, and yet, the protein can be too much in the alfalfa. It looks like the best would be crummy grass mixed with crummy, stemmy alfalfa. Also, several sources site more protein to be good for the foundered horse.

I usually will go get several bales of different kinds of grass hay, and then let the horses pick which one they like the best. Now I'm sure, they are picking the hay that is the sweetest, and probably higher in sugar content.

Then I check out the supplements which are pretty expensive, and I ask myself, is it really the supplement causing the improvement in the horse's feet, or is it really the natural state of healing that a foundered horse goes through. My mare's feet after a laminitic bout, will grow very rapidly, and you can see the body trying to compensate for the damage - and this is without any supplementation.

So I'm looking for a rational feed recommendation that doesn't buy into the hype and is practical.

There appears to be some pelleted feed mixed with the foundered horse in mind, but then I lose the hay eating activity, which I think is healthier for them.

Any comments/thoughts?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Apr 2, 2006 - 9:50 pm:

We have reviewed the safegrass site several times and the last time fairly recently, if you run a search you can see more detailed discussions. I think if you will follow our suggestions for grass associated founders this will fix your problems, assuming that is the cause. As to whether you should be using alfalfa that depends on your horses diet and condition. If it seems your horses condition less than optimum and the diet a bit protein deficient you could try some but I don't think I would buy poor quality unless you need to increase the roughage content of the diet.
DrO
Member:
Bluedog1

Posted on Sunday, Apr 2, 2006 - 9:53 pm:

I have read that if you soak/rinse the hay, it removes a lot of the sugar. Hay is definitely the best food for a horse, but there are several brands of low starch/low carb feed. Check out the web sites of feed companies such as Buckeye and Triple Crown.
No offense, but are you a trained farrier? Perhaps you could get a professional's opinion on how you are trimming the hooves? Very small adjustments in angles etc, may make a big difference.

Hope all goes well with your horse.
Member:
Lsweeney

Posted on Sunday, Apr 2, 2006 - 10:39 pm:

I will go check out the grass founder pages.

I went through several farriers that were not trimming her the way I needed her feet trimmed. They left her toes too long, and really didn't know how to deal with a foundered horse. After a lot of discussions with my vet, I told him that I would take care of her myself, and he grinned and thought that would be a good idea. That was many years ago, and I have been doing them ever since. Recently, I had her down at another vet clinic for another reason, and I told the vet about her founder history, and he was very impressed with her feet. So that said, I think I'm doing pretty good. My vet has also x-rayed her feet, and they look good and the coffin bone position and state look good given her history. She has always been barefoot, so there was not a lot of repositioning that needed to be done. More of just making sure her heels are low, and the toe doesn't get out of control. I always leave her sole alone. She is also out on 3 acres of decomposed granite, so even before her founder issues, the farrier would tell me that she didn't need to be done. So my pasture does a pretty good job of wearing her feet down on its own.

The upside of me doing her feet are that I don't have to wait for appointments and can touch them up every couple of weeks. The foundered feet grow fast, and to really do a good job with them, you would have to have a farrier out very frequently - especially if she was shod.

She is ridable and we use boots on her front feet.

She is sound enough that I couldn't catch her this afternoon when I was trying to do her feet, and this was through mud with rocks in it.

I pick up every acorn on the property now and this has gone a long way in preventing any inflammation. Her last laminitis bouts were in the fall, and I kept scratching my head as to what she was eating (no grass out there), kept blaming my husband for feeding too much, and then he finally pointed to the acorns. And sure enough, those horses were nose to the ground gobbling them up, and the timing of the laminitis bouts were in synch with the acorn season.

I just know that I have to watch her feed and caloric intake like a hawk, and I'm looking for good recommendations on diet. I think I'm purchasing good hay for her, and then find out that it may richer or really not the best choice. I'm also just suspicious of supplements as I think sometimes they are a racket and really not necessary if you are feeding good quality hay.

This is a 14.1 backyard Arab - not a racehorse, or an endurance horse doing 25 miles a day.

I feel that she is intolerant to certain feeds. I've had three other horses over the years, eating the same thing she has with no issues.

I supposed the ultimate answer is to have the hay analyzed before purchasing a lot of it.

Any truth to the magnesium being protective?

Will Biotin really make a difference?

Any opinions on:

Glycocemic-EQ https://www.uckele.com/shopping/agora.cgi?product=emetabolic

Quiessence https://www.foxdenequine.com/quies.htm

Laminex
https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=39664ac2-f285-439a-8e55-06b872623 c83
Member:
Lsweeney

Posted on Sunday, Apr 2, 2006 - 11:10 pm:

PS I guess my lingo is probably a little strong with the word "crummy". I guess what I'm saying is that if you could get stemmy alfalfa with no rich leaves, that would be better. Now I probably will never buy alfalfa for my horse, however, I thought it was interesting the remarks regarding how it is lower in the carbohydrate that they were testing for, as well as recommendations that foundered horses need more protein, which alfalfa is higher in.

Also, as a general observation re: safergrass.org, which plays into my suspicions: Basically, all of the hay is iffy and dangerous, so please go buy the feed that we have formulated and "approved".

So do you also have an opinion on LMF Low-Carb feed products?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Apr 3, 2006 - 7:49 am:

The problem with soaking is that is also removes vitamins and other nutrients so I have not been a proponent of this management technique nor have I had cases where this was essential to control the founder. If there were any products or feed additives that helped I would include them in the articles. Neither have I found hay analysis essential to managing this common problem.

It sounds like your horses are doing well but because of things you have read, you are questioning your management. I don't think the answer for your horses is in any of these products Laurie, but by managing your horses condition to the moderate side and exposure to forages rich in rapidly digestible carbohydrates and fructans you will find your bouts with founder will disappear.
DrO
Member:
Scooter

Posted on Monday, Apr 3, 2006 - 9:07 am:

For what it's worth my foundered horse can't tolerate alfalfa, sends him right back into laminitis within a week. He is on pure grass hay, a handful of safechoice pellets twice a day, plus a vit. & min. supplement and he is THRIVING. The best he looked in years.
Member:
Lsweeney

Posted on Monday, Apr 3, 2006 - 11:28 am:

Thank you Diane and Jackie. Thank you Dr. Oglesby. I think you answered my question superbly, and is exactly right. My gut is usually good, however, it is hard when you are presented with miracle cures for a difficult problem. This mare is 18 years old, and I think would have been put down long ago, but we have worked hard to give her quality of life. So I think I'll go find some grass hay, and stop surfing the internet. ;-)

I just bought another horse to ride, so she is going to be turned into our spoiled pack horse that will carry carrots and wine coolers while we ride. I bought a 3 horse trailer so that she can still come on our camping trips. Her grandmother was 33 when she died. I stopped riding her at just under 20, and then fed her for another 13 years. So I think she will be around for a while......
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 7:33 pm:

Hi Laurie, I apologize for jumping in on your post, but I am looking for some encouragement, and I see that your horse has made it to 18 with the founder problem. Levi is 6 and we are experiencing his 2nd bout with laminitis. He does have a rotation again. We were able to correct it before, but I think we let the toes get too long, or something, and now we are starting over again. Did your horse have rotation problems as well? I get so discouraged when this happens, worrying that the horse that I have raised from a baby, will have a shortened life. He is the one I wanted to grow old with. We don't ride much anyhow, he is more of an expensive lawn ornament, but I hate to see him in pain, and also, this confinement ritual is so hard on him and me!
Any words of encouragement will be greatly appreciated!
Suz
Member:
Scooter

Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 10:53 am:

Susan I feel your pain! I think the big thing is getting the weight off. When Hank foundered last year, I believe the long toes were a contributing factor. He is trimmed every six weeks. During his initial founder last year I built him a pen out of corral gates that came off the lean to. He was able to socialize with everyone and was pretty happy. When he stabilized, the abscesses came. After all of that and 200#s thinner I allowed him to graze again for short periods of time. he did fine until his toes got long and I gave him alfalfa. This winter he again had a slight bout with laminitis because of this. He went back on a diet and NO alfalfa. I put shoes on him and it took a few weeks for him to stabilize again. We have been good to go since then. His whole saga is under shoeing bruised feet. I too had battles with farrier. Actually I still am. The vets best and adamant advice was GET THE WEIGHT OFF. Good luck!
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 11:40 am:

Thanks Dianne, I just ordered a grazing muzzle, so we can acclimate him to it. I am hoping that this will be acceptable so that I can allow him to have a normal life. He is a happy guy, who likes to frolic and play fight with his brothers, so confinement is difficult. He is a very big horse, the one I can't keep weight on, and this guy lives to eat!
I have a smaller fenced in training yard, that I was hoping to turn them out in. They can't really kick up their heels and run amuck! I just noticed that we had gone 8 1/2 weeks between trimming. The farrier checked them and said his feet had not grown, so he was left in the flat shoe for too long I am afraid. The farrier that I have found to work well with Levi comes from Nebraska every 3 weeks. The others are 2 hours away. His schedule got messed up that put us off of our schedule, so I can only think that is what happened. Who knows. I will definately work on the weight issue. Thanks
Suz
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