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Member:
Donna7

Posted on Thursday, Apr 6, 2006 - 11:15 pm:

Last summer we lost our 7 yr old gelding to founder which seemed to be caused by the farrier cutting the sole too short and other underlying problems. Our other gelding had the same occurrence after being shod last summer and is rapidly going down hill. The degree of rotation in both front foundered feet is far from DrOpping, however, the pain meds (bute) is causing him to stay off his feet and stare at his stomach. We are giving him 2 gms/day of bute plus ACE and Gastro-gaurd, as well as Malox which helps him temporarily. We tried decreasing the bute per Vet's instructions though I'm concerned about pain management since he may have an abcess in one hoof. The bute is essentially affecting him and we do not know what to do. All vets are at the point of putting him down but his appetite is good and he's passing manure with no problem. He's eating/drinking lying down and maybe on his feet one hour out of 24. He does have ringbone in one of the foundered hooves which has made shoeing a problem. He has a glue-on shoe on one foot and a foam pad on the other (the lamer of the two feet). He is in pain, but if we continue to give him bute we're back to square one. The Gatro-guard (one tube a day)and antacid aren't cutting it. His stomach does have sounds, his breathing is shallow and he's in pain. Is there any other pain meds to try? Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks, Steve and Donna
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Apr 7, 2006 - 7:32 am:

Hello Steve and Donna,
This is a difficult situation but one we have been able to successfully manage in the past by taking a holistic view of the problems.

First I want you to be sure you are managing the founder as aggressively as possible which includes opening any suspected abscess immediately, for more study, Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis » Founder & Laminitis an Overview.

Next I want you to manage the ulcers as aggressively as possible. For this problem study Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Gastric Ulcers.

Notice the word manage in the above referrals, I am not talking medication I am talking about the way the problems are managed, study the articles closely and repeatedly, even small points can be important and I will be glad to answer any specific questions you have. Concerning the question of alternative pain relief, we have an article that addresses this along with recommendations on monitoring long term use, Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » An Overview of NSAID's.
DrO
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Friday, Apr 7, 2006 - 4:13 pm:

Steve and Donna, I remember your heartrending story and long struggle with your other dear horse and hope that this episode will turn out much differently.

So much information was given in the previous discussion, and I'm certain there is no more that I can add to it. I hope you find relief and healing for your horse.
Member:
444444

Posted on Friday, Apr 7, 2006 - 7:33 pm:

Dear Steve and Donna, I have lost two horses to laminitis (one in 1999 and one in Nov 05 who after cutting the deep digital flexor tendon (having fantastic results) and then finding it necessary to do a hoof resection on her left hoof as the frontal blood flow wasn't returning in that foot she ended up with an infection that attacked the bone (osteomyelitis) and we lost the battle). I had one who the vets gave up on and I didn't in July 2003 who is also my cushings pony. The vets all said there was nothing more medically that could be done...he is here today and back in our children's program. As a result of my experiences I am compiling a laminitis manual of information from every source available...It may become a PhD thesis! So that there might be a list of things to try from a wide variety of experts and those of us in the field who have both won and lost the battle.
I am presently reading Founder! Hope for Refractory Laminitis by Matthew Frederick AFA CF, and Susan Tierney Frederick. Much of the information was presented at the 2001 Bluegrass Laminitis Symposium which Dr. Rick Redden hosts annually. In his opening remarks Frederick, a farrier from Napa Valley, CA says, "refractory laminitis is laminitis that does not respond to conventional medical treatment or shoeing of any kind. Today, most refractory laminitic cases are considered "hopeless cases," and most of the refractory horses are put down. I believe that most refractory laminitic cases, in the field, can be saved; that they can achieve some level of soundnesss(without Bute) and many can go back to some level of work. Keep in mind that I am not addressing osteomyelitis, which is a different story."
He goes on, "In this talk, you will see that I believe that MOST laminitis horses share a common problem, which we suspect is insulin resistance, and that the most common cause of insulin resistance (in the horse) being a "Cushing like" or Cushingnoid synDrOme> I believe that most refractory cases are Cushingnoid horses, and simply that most are put down before they are diagnosed. I believe that MOST refractory horses will respond to Permax (pergolide mesylate)REGARDLESS of the results of "cushing's tests," and that successfully dealing with refractory laminitis is a "Two part approach:" addressing the underlying systemic problems with pergolide, and shoeing them with EDSS, Dr. Redden's advance equine shoes or a similar shoeing system."
If I ever have a laminitic episode again the very first thing I would do having read this study is to begin a PERMAX treatment...there is nothing to lose.
Frederick's study and results with PERMAX is quite remarkable --- if I had had this information...who knows.
I have added PERMAX to my drug supply on hand in my stables.
Now, before having this information what I did for Little Man includes what DrO said in his email "taking a holistic view of the problems." I immediately put LM in Redden rubber boots which gave him the correct angle and support. I went to what I use as a guide to healing DR. Mary Brennan, DVM's Complete Holistic Care and Healing for Horses. I used acupressure (she gives you all the points) I used Bach Flower remedies, aromatherapy, massage therapy, and I am TTouch Certified and used all the TTouches to ease pain, get the endorphines flowing --- ear and mouthwork, Racoon touches around the eyes. I found that LM had TMJ symptoms (I believe from gritting his teeth from pain)I did lots of massage on the jaw connections. I play wonderful music in the stables and I spent untold hours with LM rubbing oils on his feet. I used Yucca and a variety of homeopathic remedies. All in all it took a full year to get LM well enough to go outside in a sand paddock for half a day. Today, two years later he is allowed out with the herd two hours a day and when the grass is up will wear a grazing mask the rest of the day he is in a paddock when not with the children or training in the round pen. He went from Redden boots to hand made shoes from the farrier which replicate Redden shoes except in steel as he reacted to the aluminium. I also gave him Rapid Response. He gets bee pollen, yucca, calcium, nutribalance, soft rock phosphate, echinacea, vit C, and chaste tree berry daily. I muscle test and douse for anything else he might need.
Today his vets still find it "unexplainable" why he is still here!
I used GastroGuard for my mare I lost, it caused her not to want to eat. I tasted it and understood why! Put a dab on your finger and then on your tongue, you'll taste the horrible taste for hours. I stopped giving it to her and she went back to eating well.
I know how heartwrenching laminitis is and I know that we all need to share anything we have done that has helped or not.
If I can do anything to help please let me know.
Sue
Member:
Donna7

Posted on Friday, Apr 7, 2006 - 10:46 pm:

Thanks Dr. O on the info on the articles, will take a look at them definitely. To our surprise, our gelding made it out of his stall and walked about 30 ft. out to nibble on some grass hay. It looked like he ate all of his breakfast and drinking fine. We tried just a while ago a natural pain reliever called "BL-Paste" along with "Equine Bene-Bac" to try to get the cultures going again and lastly "Pro CMC" gastric relief. Our horse has been off bute now 24 hrs from this post and the last dosage was 1 gram. In terms of stomach pain, he seems to be handling things better w/o the bute...not staring at his stomach and groaning in pain. He appetite is good this evening and I hope this natural stuff works....any success stories with this stuff? Thanks, Steve and Donna
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Apr 8, 2006 - 8:57 am:

Are you feeding grain to this horse? If you will list the ingredients, concentration, and dosage rate of these products I will be glad to comment.
DrO
Member:
Donna7

Posted on Saturday, Apr 8, 2006 - 3:15 pm:

Dr. O: This is the history of what he has been eating since he became laminitic:

Before laminitis, 1 flake timothy and 1 flake alfalfa, 1/2 of a 1 lb coffee can of equine senior including Joint Combo Hoof and Coat (JCHC), Yucca Saponin (YS) and Acculytes electrolytes (E) AM and same w/o the JCHC and E in the PM. All changes to feed/supplements made gradually except stopping of alfalfa hay.

Got laminitis mid-May and diagnosed 5/31/05. His weight was good and estimated to be 1150 at 16.1 1/2 hands and 19 years old. Kept feed the same, but eliminated the alfalfa and increased the timothy.

Added MSM in June/July. In July I found LMF Low Carb Complete food for my other laminitic/diabetic horse. Began feeding this instead of Equine Senior in August/September and worked up to 3.5 pounds 2x/day.

August added Neigh-lox.

September added the Hylamotion (Hylaruronic acid), which I stopped feeding in January.

August stopped feeding JCHC and switched to Majesty's Flex Wafer's until mid-December.

Late December could no longer get LMF Low Carb Complete and switched to Triple Crown Low Starch (which can be fed as a complete feed). Slowly brought this up to 3.5 lbs (weighed) twice a day plus his timothy.

Mid-January 2006 he began also eating bermuda hay (he wanted it) and I added a new hoof supplement and joint supplement, Grand Meadows Grand Hoof Pellets with MSM and Grand Meadows Grand Complete.

February started lying down a lot and not eating very much. February 21, 2006 re-x-rayed, rotated more (never been told how much) low ring bone worsened in RF and diagnosed with ulcers based upon symptoms. Vet gave him Legend and Adequan, began Gastro Guard daily. Added a cup of senior to his meal to get him to eat it because he did not take in much of his supplements for 1-2 weeks because he would not eat. Also added a cup of alfalfa pellets to each meal for ulcers despite being told by some (not all vets) that he should not have alfalfa.

Note: he's been on anywhere from 1-3 cc of acepromazine and 1.5 grams of bute 2 times a day almost exclusivley since diagnosis 5/21/05. Tried to wean him off bute in October (per vet and farrier), got down to 1/2 gram 2 times a day be he was too uncomfortable. Occasionally he has had 2 grams twice a day (abcessed in October).

March 7 noticed he would look at belly a lot while down. March 7-12 weaned off bute and no bute for 10 days (13th - 21st), but hoof pain increased after 4 days of no bute. Began bute again March 22, per vet instructions. Began 1 cup of aloe vera juice on March 25 half hour before giving bute.

March 23, switched from Grand Meadows Grand Complete to Grand Meadows HA Synergy (all supplements purchased thru SmartPak in case you need to see ingredients you can check all labels on their website www.smartpakequine.com).

So to recap what he is now eating AM and PM:

-free choice Timothy and Bermuda
-about 1-2.5 pounds (depending on his appetite) of Triple Crown Low Starch
-1 cup of Purina Equine Senior
-1 cup of Alfalfa pellets
-2 ounces of Neighlox
-1/2 scoop of Grand Meadows Grand Hoof (biotin, methionine, zinc, copper,MSM)
-1 1/2 scoops of Grand Meadows HA Synergy (has Glucosamine, ChonDrOitan, Hyaluronic Acid, MSM, Yucca and Vitamin C in it).

Up until we stopped the bute on Thursday night (last dose of 1 gram) he has been getting bute with Malox, and 2 cc of ace.

We started the Absorbine Pro CMC last night (60 cc) and this morning. He got 10 grams of B-L paste (Yucca and Devil's claw) and 10 grams of Bene-Bac probiotic last night. I also gave him a syringe of Gastro Guard this morning.

Farrier has been using the Ric Redden Equine Digital Support System on him which he has had this shoeing on since 12/22/05. Changed the pad on bottom to a beveled pad for break over on 2/21/06. Was to be re-shod on the 27th but rain prevented glue on shoeing and became lame on the 28th. Took off right shoe on Tuesday (unable to reshoe) and put on soft foam pad w/duct tape. Still has shoe on LF.

He was up and around a bit this morning and seems to be eating/drinking. Went back down by mid-morning still looking at his stomach. Seemed to be a bit better after giving the Nalox although after a few hours he's back down looking at his stomach. Any ideas would be appreciated. Many Thanks, Steve and Donna
Member:
Donna7

Posted on Saturday, Apr 8, 2006 - 10:12 pm:

As of noon our gelding Southern was down this time with feet in pain. The Nalox and BL-Paste was easier on his stomach (not staring at stomach as much) but pulses in feet were throbbing. We iced him down this afternoon but hasn't gotten up at all. We decided to give him 1 gram of bute since we didn't see any changes with the BL-Paste and he was suffering quite a bit. If this continues we may not have any other choice but to put him down. Steve and Donna
Member:
Lsweeney

Posted on Sunday, Apr 9, 2006 - 12:48 am:

Steve and Donna - I have been through several bouts of laminitis with a small Arab that I have. While it just totally sucks, do not despair.

Several things that I learned. We can't do alfalfa at all. As she got older, I had to be more and more careful with feed, and I'm not talking grain, just hay. I just bought some bagged feed that is supposed to be good for laminitic horses that LMF makes. I'm going to see if she likes it, and I can give her that if she is looking for a treat.

The other thing I discovered that was my real nemesis was acorns. This was what was really triggering her last laminitis bouts. I now pick up every last acorn on 3 acres during the fall, and this has helped significantly.

When she went through her acute episodes, I think the bottom line now was:

Very, very soft bedding - shavings on top of straw. I think they make these styrofoam shoes that are supposed to help.

Anti-inflammatories.

I didn't have a problem with her laying down. She did this a lot. I'm sure icing her feet would be soothing.

I have kept her barefoot, and followed the natural horse trimming recommendations for foundered horses. This has been very good for us. I do the trims myself, and can touch up the feet as they try to repair themselves.

I use horse boots for her if we go out. She has been rideable through the years, and quite comfortable with boots.

https://www.naturalhorsetrim.com/
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Apr 9, 2006 - 9:08 am:

Steve and Donna, I really don't think this is simply being cut to short even if cut until the horse bleeds they should be well by now. After reviewing our article on founder overview do you or your veterinarian have any other ideas as to why you are having such problems with founder? By understanding the cause perhaps we can more directly address the problem.

Steven ALL concentrates and rich hays should have been removed from the diet of a foundering horse until the horse is comfortable. Even if they become thin, this helps with the recovery stage of founder. A slightly stemmy timothy/coastal would be perfect. I would add back in some vitamins as described in our article on vitamins in the nutrition section. Read the article on founders again carefully and any treatment / management you are not following post and we will discuss this.

I don't believe you can manage a foundered horse without NSAID's once inflammation starts you have to address it in order to restore normal circulation. If you believe ulcers are a problem you should begin once or twice daily Banamine (flunixin) and daily omeprazole. Antacids are not likely to be of any real benefit. I would not use the Devils Claw, I believe it does relieve pain but the mechanism of action uncertain and it is the antiinflammatory effects of bute or Banamine that is important in my mind.
DrO
Member:
Donna7

Posted on Sunday, Apr 9, 2006 - 11:53 am:

According to our vet and new farrier, the highly suspect that the founder was a result of being cut low. Our last horse Ravel did have pre-conditions (Insulin Resistance) which may have accelerated his case. Both horses were shod the same day and developed lameness within a day or two of being shod. I think what accelerated or made things worse for Ravel especially, was that we live in Arizona, and last summer we had the hottest summer on record. We are already near 90 degrees here and Southern our foundered gelding seems to be getting worse...don't know if there is a correlation. The vets here have no ideas or recommendations to give us. We've consulted four vets which have essentially given up. The current vet doesn't believe that alfalfa attributes to the founder and he has his other clients feed it....we don't. All of the meds that you mentioned (Banamine for sure) are being administered. There is something major going on since we discovered a new ring on one of his hoofs within the last week. Problem is, the vets don't want to come out unless it's an extreme emergency because it's breeding season. So our biggest problem is that we don't have any specific guidance and instead of taking the time to examine or research the problem, our vets just want us to put him down. Truthfully, I think this was the case with our last horse Ravel, everyone was tired of dealing with it and no one had any solutions other than just putting him down. None of the vets out here seem nor want to specialize in laminitis, just what I see with ours and other people we've spoken with that are going through this. I'll take a look at the info on vitamins..etc whatever it takes we are willing to do. Thanks, Donna and Steve
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Sunday, Apr 9, 2006 - 1:38 pm:

Donna and Steve - boy, do I feel for you! I remember your battle with Ravel, poor thing.

We have an Arab gelding that has foundered in the past, and had another episode this past winter. Our vet told me I should just put him down as he had several problems going on at once. He said he was a Cushings horse, he has ringbone, and now the founder.

I did a lot of research, including getting some good advice from Dr. O, his articles, and from others on this board. It has taken months, but I wish you could see this guy now. He is actually chasing his buddy around their pen! He still needs to loose more weight, but looks so much better than he used to look. He is interested in life once again!

I basically ignored my local vet, and put the horse on grass hay, and added all kinds of minerals and supplements to his diet, with just enough low starch senior feed to mix them in. I first padded his feet with styrofoam, taped on with duct tape, then put him in boots. He was kept in a deeply bedded stall, or a deep sand turnout until he was moving good.

The only thing I didn't do, that I could think of, was put him on Pergolide, as I felt he was Insulin Resistant instead of Cushinoid, and thought the Pergolide was for Cushings only. (However, after reading Sue's post I think I will put him on the Pergolide. Although he has shed out a lot, he still has a lot of very fine, long hairs he doesn't seem to be loosing, which makes me wonder if he is Cushings. Regardless, I don't see where it would hurt him, and from Sue's post, it might well help.) I did have this horse on bute for quite awhile. I was lucky in that it didn't seem to affect his stomach; at least there were no signs of colic, although it did seem to make him lethargic.

My advice would be to not give up until you have tried absolutely everything there is to try, unless it just gets to be too much for the horse to bear. I think you can tell when this point comes. It is a rough, emotional road, however.

btw - a while back someone posted a site where you can get Pergolide much cheaper than normal. I'm going back and look through posts to try and find it. If I do, I'll post it here for you.
Member:
Donna7

Posted on Sunday, Apr 9, 2006 - 2:15 pm:

Thanks Sara for the info, luckily he's negative for cushings although he does have ringbone. This has been a challenge for the farrier since if you adjust for the founder, it affects the ringbone. He was down most of the night and recently got up the last few hours and wandered into one of our other stalls...so he's making the effort. The footing (shavings) in the pens are deep so this helps tremendously. I'm wondering if the 1 gram of bute we gave him less than 24 hours ago is helping with the inflamation? With the 1 gram we gave him the other night, it seemed to help.....maybe more than 1 gram is too much and is irritating the suspected ulcer. Thanks for the help, my wife still needs to read more on Dr. O's recommendations on the article, she's been out giving lessons all morning and hasn't gotten home yet, I'm the "on-call nurse" this morning. Thanks, Steve and Donna
Member:
Lsweeney

Posted on Sunday, Apr 9, 2006 - 10:06 pm:

Steve and Donna - I agree 100% with Sara. I have been there. Feeling completely incompetent that my horse is in writhing pain. Actually, wanting to put her down, so that my and her agony could stop. However, like Sara, I wish you could have seen her when I had the vet out for the horse that is supposed to replace her as my riding horse. I have this lame 2 year old, and the 18 year old foundered mare is running around at a full gallop and we are yelling at her because she is making the 2 year old excited.

So they can recover from this.

Keep him on the anti-inflammatories morning and night until you see some improvement in attitude. Take away the alfalfa. I don't care what anybody says about it, it is poison to my mare. I feed grass hay only.

Also, for what it is worth, I have had two trimmings result in a laminitis attack. I don't believe that it is the trim job itself that really caused the laminitis, it is just the catalyst. If you already have a horse that is on the edge, anything that you do that causes inflammation or thins the sole, I think, can push the horse over.

My mare's start with laminitis was the fact that she was a 14'1 Arab, who was dominant over the other horses, and I was feeding alfalfa. I'm sure she was overweight for her size. My kids left the gait to the barn with the hay open, and my mare ate her fill. I think it was shortly after this that the farrier came out and trimmed her, and then she had her laminitic attack. She went some time without any reoccurences, until I moved her to another pasture. The pasture with the acorns.

I think it took some time with one of her worst attacks to get her through it - Perhaps a week or two. Keep the feed down and small amounts spread out over the day.
Member:
Donna7

Posted on Monday, Apr 10, 2006 - 1:59 am:

I should have made myself more clear, the sole was cut extremely low on both horses to the point where they went lame, then the laminitis symptoms from there. We haven't given any alfalfa since the occurrence with the exception of a few pellets (less than a hand full)to get him to eat his supplements. He was a bit more active today with the bute, throttling back on the dosage to 1 gram a day...he isn't looking at his stomach as much plus the pulses in his affected hooves aren't throbbing and hot as much. Steve
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Monday, Apr 10, 2006 - 2:33 am:

Boy, you guys are sure having a terrible time with laminitis. I'm so sorry. I only slid down that road once with my 26 yr old QH. It was a relatively minor bout and caught early, but it was the laminitis that clued me in to the Cushings. Remember, that Cushings tests are not always reliable. I cut my mare's feed down to almost nothing. Most of her diet consists of stemmy timothy-grass hay 24/7. I don't know if others feel the same, but I've had the best results with Farrier's Formula hoof supplement. I don't know what body condition your horse is in, but I've certainly found that the lower the weight, the less foot problems I have.

Steve, is there any chance that we could see some pictures? It might help. I have to say again, that I'm so so sorry you're struggling once more. The last time nearly tore my heart out just reading your posts.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Apr 10, 2006 - 7:40 am:

We are fairly sure that the bute should be divided twice daily Steve, perhaps you could eak this up to 1/2 to 3/4 gram twice daily? I have never had a 1000lb horse that had problems with 1 gm twice daily even very long term, but it is reported.
DrO
Member:
Lsweeney

Posted on Monday, Apr 10, 2006 - 9:21 am:

I get the short trim. But I had another mare that was quicked by shoers several times, but it never resulted in laminitis. The same horse had gotten out and eaten a 1/2 a barrel of grain, with no ill effects. This was my first horse that I had for 30 years.

I still bet that the horse was prone to go there anyway.
Member:
Donna7

Posted on Monday, Apr 10, 2006 - 11:13 am:

We discovered an abcess on the more lame hoof this morning which has begun draining. It is located on the outer edge on the bulb on the heel. We are concerned since our last horse Ravel had this same problem which resulted in full separation along the coronary band and we had no choice in putting him down. In terms of comfort, Southern seems to be more alert and has been up for about one hour a day walking. His appetite and attitude are good. Should we use heat to encourage draining or let the abcess continue to drain on its own? We just don't want to have the same thing happen to Southern. Many Thanks, Steve and Donna
Member:
444444

Posted on Monday, Apr 10, 2006 - 1:04 pm:

I always feel as if it is good news when an abscess begins draining and gives relief. Once an abscess opens a really safe drawing agent is castor oil. I pour castor oil on a gauze bandage put it on the abscess, cover with cotton and lightly wrap with a polo to hold the gauze and cotton in place. I change the dressing twice a day. After two or three days, when you feel as if all the drainage is done I use honey on the opening for a couple of days, again putting it on gauze, some cotton and wrapping. You will be astounded by the healing power of honey.

Steve and Donna, I have read and reread this whole report from Matthew Frederick and the more than 60 horses who he reports on if they were cushingoid or not they gave pergolide. They used Permax as they had less positive results in generic brands of pergolide.

Here is another quote from his book this from a series of questions following his presentation; "So YES, we belive that pergolide will STOP to laminitis in MOST laminitis cases in the field. Even the non-refractory ones. In our study, we used pergolide on the refractory cases (horses with Obel grade 3-4 symptoms for 2-7 months). However, some veterinarians who were introduced to our theory years ago, will use it on any laminitic case (where they have reported excellent results). Many time these veterinarians will successfully "wean" these horses off the drug. So what harm has been done? Horses that might have lost their lives are alive today. Then, after the episode resolves, they can continue diet and weight control that they should have been following for years. We have no objection to the use of Mg++ and/or chromium supplementation as we have said in our presentation, our book and our posts. However, we suspect that all these alternate methods of achieving control, or improving insulin resistance will ultimately prove to be working on different aspects of the same molecular cascade of events that underlies the insulin resistance in these horses.
We think that our hypothesis perhaps hold more of the keys to the possible answers than any other research up to this point: at least for laminitis. Do we think that there are more Cushingoid (Cushing's-LIKE) cases than ever before? Yes, and no. We believe that more of them are simply being recognized, and being recognized earlier. If a horse/pony is Cushingoid/diabetic, he does not wake up one morning as a Cushingoid case or a diabetic. It is a Progressive synDrOme.
What is the earliest sign? We suspect that the earliest sign that owners, farriers and veterinarians would (most often) RECOGNIZE are early, subacute, self-limiting laminitic episodes. (There are, of course, in our opinion, earlier signs (e.g. unusual fat storage, being an "easy keeper," hyperinsulinemia etc...) Hundreds (if nor thousands) of horses have been put down one by one; small, private tragedies in small and large veterinary practices, by practitioners who have not even considered a Cushing's like synDrOme/diabetes as a possible cause of the horses' laminitis. As we said to Dr. Rick Redden in 1999, when we told him about our hypothesis and research, we suspect that MOST idiopathic laminitis cases are undiagnosed, unrecognized Cushing's-LIKE cases, it's just that many of them are put down to refractory laminitis YEARS before the classic symptoms that practitioners would recognize would appear (e.g. hirsutism, PU/PD, etc.) We believe that the proliferation of commercial feeds and supplements (since the 1960s) that are aggressively marketed to the horse-owning public are more "responsible" for idiopathic laminitis in susceptible horses than anything else. Often, these types of feeds are the "stressors" that push these "susceptible horses over the edge......"

I purchased the Frederick book and Dr. Chris Pollitt's book from Wild Horse Publishing (719) 784-1226. How I wish I had this research when my Delta foundered in '99 (a Morgan who was mistakenly given alfalfa hay)and my Gracie, Delta's 1/2 sister in '05 who with this info I would say was diabetic --- pergolide may have made all the difference!
My thoughts and prayers are with you.
Sue

Sara thanks for looking for the source "btw - a while back someone posted a site where you can get Pergolide much cheaper than normal. I'm going back and look through posts to try and find it. If I do, I'll post it here for you" Permax is the brand name. They are so clear that the generic brands aren't as successful.
Member:
Lsweeney

Posted on Monday, Apr 10, 2006 - 1:41 pm:

My Friesian is at UC Davis right now with a potential abscess that they are trying to draw out. They put a poultice on her foot with some special substance that is supposed to be particularly good for that. When the vet calls me, I will try to get the name.
Member:
Lsweeney

Posted on Monday, Apr 10, 2006 - 2:03 pm:

Some poultice info: https://www.equipodiatry.com/footsoak.htm
Member:
Lsweeney

Posted on Monday, Apr 10, 2006 - 2:05 pm:

Found the link you guys were referring to.

Hey all you Cushing's synDrOme owners, I found a less-expensive source for pergolide than the human prescription Permax. The difference in cost is significant: For my small horse it now costs me $1 a dose instead of $5 a dose. It comes in an apple-flavored syrup, making administration easier. The customer service people are great.

I originally learned about this company from the UC Davis horse newsletter:

Presription Specialties Inc.
www.rxspecialties.com
Email: info@rxspecialties.com

555 Highland Avenue
Cheshire, CT 06410

1-800-861-0933

Good luck to all you Cushing's synDrOme owners!

:-)
Member:
Lsweeney

Posted on Monday, Apr 10, 2006 - 2:15 pm:

Tim's Pharmacy & Gift Shop - Yelm, Washington is the least expensive place for Pergolide in the capsule form. I pay $109.00 for a 4 months supply which comes to about 27.00 per month + S&H...To get this price you have to order 4 months supply. I use .75mg Pergolide at this price. You can get to his web page at www.timspharmacy.com.
Member:
444444

Posted on Monday, Apr 10, 2006 - 7:11 pm:

Thanks so much for all the info Laurie. So many terrific articles on NVE website.
Appreciate you,
Sue
Member:
Lsweeney

Posted on Monday, Apr 10, 2006 - 8:19 pm:

Thanks Sue. I thought the soaking was pretty interesting since it contrasted with so much of what you hear, and actually makes a lot of sense. My foundered horse always has more issues and is more tender in the winter, and I know that this is because the horn in her hoof is soft and is "feeling" everything she steps on. When her feet are rock hard in the summer, she is always pretty comfortable.

Also, you get a lot more abscesses in the winter when the feet are soft, moist and vulnerable.

So it kind of does make sense that soaking might not be our best friend.
Member:
Lsweeney

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 11, 2006 - 1:26 am:

PS I forgot to mention that they did blood work, and everything is normal.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 11, 2006 - 7:33 am:

Steve and Donna,
I go directly after abscesses, as the horse will not get better until treated and there is so much relief to be had from good drainage.

Abscesses secondary to a founder form in the sole at the toe between the point of the frog and the wall and usually they form bilaterally. If this is true in your case your horse have been suffering for some time to pop out all the way back at the heel. Once this foot is draining well if the horse goes lamer in the opposite foot, I would bet it has abscessed also.

On those that have not ruptured, once I find purulence I start with a dime size hole and if I feel I am not getting good drainage I soak or enlarge the hole. I would be removing horn overlying the abscess until I got to the source of the abscess. For more on how I treat abscesses see, Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Hoof Abscesses, Bruises, and Gravels.
DrO
Member:
Donna7

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 11, 2006 - 2:31 pm:

Thanks, we've applied meds to the infected area this morning to draw out more of the infection. We're going to try to get a vet to come out to re-xray the lame hoof since we've noticed new rings around the coronary band. Our horse has been up on average 2 hrs a day and still has good appetite and is drinking. Thanks, Steve and Donna
Member:
Donna7

Posted on Thursday, Apr 13, 2006 - 12:39 am:

As of this afternoon the abcess had damaged the hoof wall causing the hoof to cave in and detach. All this within 24 hours. Southern our gelding didn't have an appetite this evening and was lying down by the time the vet showed up. The vet noticed the hoof wall which had begun to deteriorate to the same degree as our last horse Ravel. We had no other option but to put him down. Even if we removed the hoof as mentioned in some articles, the pain suffering coupled with the increase in temperatures here in Arizona this week...it wasn't fair to him. We put him down this evening just before sunset. The temperature had gone down and he seemed more comfortable. Love your horses, they're special gentle friends. Thanks for all the posts, Steve and Donna
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Thursday, Apr 13, 2006 - 12:57 am:

Steve - I'm so sorry for you and Donna.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Apr 13, 2006 - 7:44 am:

Steven, my deepest condolences. When you are able and with your permission I want to explore these two founders in detail. Something odd is going on here and I want to see if we can flesh this out.
DrO
Member:
Frances

Posted on Thursday, Apr 13, 2006 - 8:38 am:

Steve and Donna,

You must be devastated. I'm so sorry that you have had to go through this twice.

Lynn
Member:
444444

Posted on Thursday, Apr 13, 2006 - 9:27 am:

Steve and Donna,
My heart aches for you both. I know too well the raw pain and heartache of losing our equine family members. Southern was loved deeply and he knows. Now he is free of pain and with his friend Ravel.
Blessing to you both,
Sue
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Apr 13, 2006 - 10:54 am:

I am so sorry to hear about your loss. As Dr. O suggested, please explore the entire situation in greater detail with him when you are up to it. Perhaps you could help save other horses and owners from going through this painful and heartbreaking situation in the future.
Member:
Shirl

Posted on Thursday, Apr 13, 2006 - 12:33 pm:

Steve and Donna,
My deepest sympathy in your loss. His spirit will always be close in your life, watching over you.
Shirl
Member:
Donna7

Posted on Thursday, Apr 13, 2006 - 12:54 pm:

Many thanks for everyones support. Dr. O: Once my wife feels up to it, I'll have her put something together and send it to you on both cases. Donna always does an excellent job logging everything on our horses. I just wished we could have done something more, the acceleration of the damage was to say the least unbelievable. Again many thanks, Steve
Member:
Canter

Posted on Thursday, Apr 13, 2006 - 1:28 pm:

Steve & Donna,
I can only offer my deepest sympathy. I hope you take comfort knowing you did the all you could for both Ravel and Southern. I wish you both peace.

Fran
Member:
Dawson

Posted on Thursday, Apr 13, 2006 - 3:30 pm:

Steve and Donna this is a very difficult thing to go through, which I unfortunately can say from my own experiance. In the past year and a half we also lost two due to laminitis.

Our 12 yr old Saddlebred, who foundered initially during spring innoculations. She had two episodes during which she was sore when we let her out after breakfast which were several months apart. She was stalled for the day, and both times on the following mornings she came bouncing out of her stall. Five months later she walked out sore in the morning, she was stalled, but remained sore, and our battle began. Grain was slowly removed, Banamine & Isoxoprine for pain/anti-inflam. All four foot soaks 2X20min daily, these turned into ice wraps up to five times/24 hours-for 20 minutes. We initially did not use Bute do to her hx of colic surgery at 2, but as her pain increased we had to resort to it. We also applied styrafoam "slippers". Her feet were cut way back, an oval shaped very dense stra foam pad about three to four inches thick was duct taped to each of her hooves, not near coronary band. The following morning, the styra foam was taken off and trimmed leaving only the area which had pressed up into the sole of her foot, the flat outer edges trimmed away, and the styra foam was re-taped into the sole of her foot. Followed by a new second oval styra foam pad duct taped on, to act as a slipper to cushion her feet, while the inner styrafoam supported the sole of her foot. As she was VERY sore it was difficult to ask her to lift each foot so we could perform this awkward procedure, on occasion twice or three times a day as she removed them.(not all 4, just 1 or maybe 2) We tested her for Cushings but her range was undetermined whether she did or did not have it. The day before we placed her on Peroglide she had begun to improve, so we were never sure if the Peroglide helped or not. After a month we slowly withdrew her from the Bute, Banamine, Isoxoprine. The day we took her slippers off she pranced around as if she were in a parade, she looked great! The Vet told us to continue the ice packs 2X daily as a precaution and we could let her out in our small turnout for 1 hour as long as she walked. A nervious mother I hand walked her for fifteen to twenty minutes, for the next seven days, no heat, no rushing pulses. On the 8th morning I entered the barn to find her in "the laminitic pose" and we began again. Two months went by, we began a slow down adjust in meds, and followed the same procedures. Slippers were removed, she looked great, the next morning I hand walked her five minutes, no more. Back into her stall. (I should have mentioned when we applied the slippers we had to remove most all of her shavings for safety, when slippers came off we loaded her stall 6-8 inches deep)This time all was well, for ten days, when I went into the barn the next morning her nose was almost to the floor, and she could barely turn to look at me and had no interest in food. Her last set of xrays were taken two days later she had rotated to a degree it was no longer worth putting her through the battle.

Our 2nd mare was almost 27 yrs, very arthritic likely due to several years of severe abuse before we adopted her, she did not have Cushings.

In forty years of caring for horses I have never had a laminitic horse, Speaking with my Vet he had seen at least 20 cases at the same time as ours. Our mares were on different feeds, but they both received Purina hay extender in addition to hay, as it was mud season grass was nil.

I read two interesting atricles since. One recommended a complete circular shoe, which was reported to let the horse stand in it's laminitic pose,without stressing the feet. The second suggested putting a shoe on backwards to support the back of the foot, and take pressure off of the toes.(where my mare were sorest)
? Dr. O. I would be interested in your opinons of the Stryafoam procedure
Circular Shoe
Reverse Shoe
*Neither of our horses ever resulted in abcess. The Stryafoam slippers was done with a set of xrays, My Vet, and blacksmith, I did not want anyone to think I came up with idea on my own.

Steve when you are ready I also would appreciate you sending info. to Dr. O, to research into it further in hopes of perhaps saving someone elses partner and best friend.
Member:
Kathleen

Posted on Thursday, Apr 13, 2006 - 4:00 pm:

Steve and Donna,
There is nothing I can say that will make your pain any less. I am so sorry you and your horses had to go through this terrible ordeal. There is no doubt that something special is heading your way. Keep an eye out.
Kathleen
Member:
Warwick

Posted on Thursday, Apr 13, 2006 - 4:32 pm:

So sorry to hear the very sad news, Steve and Donna. Please try to take some comfort in knowing that Southern's suffering is now over.

Sue
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Thursday, Apr 13, 2006 - 5:43 pm:

Steve and Donna
I remember you from your previous posts on Ravel... you guys have really been thru it and have fought the good fight! Man, oh man, I am so sorry that all of you had to go thru this again.I am wishing and praying for your lives to be easier and happier, never forgetting what you have tried to do for your horses. God bless, and send you wellness for you and your loved ones. So sorry,
Nancy
Member:
Oscarvv

Posted on Friday, Apr 14, 2006 - 7:48 am:

Dear Steve and Donna,
I am so sorry for your loss. If only all horses had owners as kind and loving as you.
Take care,
Barbara
Member:
Corinne

Posted on Saturday, Apr 15, 2006 - 12:09 am:

My deepest condolences for your loss as well.
Let us know if you need anything. Always ears here to listen.

God Bless,
Corinne
Member:
Lilo

Posted on Monday, Apr 17, 2006 - 2:21 pm:

Dear Steve and Donna,

Sometimes this is the hardest thing of being a member of the Horseman's Advisor. You follow a story and hope for the best outcome, but, it ends like this.
My sincere condolences! You certainly did all you could for both those horses.
Lilo
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