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Discussion on Bute or Banamine?
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Message |
Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 29, 2006 - 3:12 pm:
Dr. O, Levi has been doing great with his new farrier, life has been wonderful. This morning it was raining so, i gave horses grain, then threw in some hay in the stall to keep them in for the day. Levi was acting fine in his stall, eating etc. I went out around 10 am to let him roam in the barn, and he was short stepping on the front. His hooves were slightly warm, moderate pulse, but definately sore on the left front, the bad club foot that we had the rotation with in 2004. I had the vet out and he used the hoof tester, right foot seemed fine, left foot was sensitive all over. I had called my farrier and he did not want the shoes removed, his hoof wall has always been thin, and chunked off the last time we had a problem. This vet made a pad out of foam insulation, and gave him 10 cc of banamine. He said to wait it out?
My farrier and from what i have read in the overview is to give him bute? Which in your opinion would be better to use. The vet that came to day said to give him 10 cc orally 2 x day today and tomorrow?
Also, he will need to be confined obviously, but is it Ok to give him just dryed stemmy grass hay for something to do, No grain or little grain????
It has been so nice not having to worry for a while.
thanks
suz
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 29, 2006 - 5:40 pm:
Hi Suz. My horse that had enteritis 2 weeks ago was given banamine instead of bute, and when I asked, I was told that lidocaine had been administered for a different issue and I was informed that lidocaine+bute=siezure (possibility). Maybe something else was given in addition to the banamine which made the banamine a better choice.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 29, 2006 - 6:11 pm:
Hi Ilona, I am so sad! Levi has been doing soo well, I am just glad this did not happen while we were in Arizona. I just can't figure out what happened. Nothing has changed, he did not get into grain, food amount and quality did not change. We have had lots of rain, and the grass did grow, but it is so short. The 4 boys have been on pasture all winter, so I was not worried. I quess with Levi's predisposition to the Laminitis, I should have watched him more closely. Who Knows . . .?
As far as I know he only gave him the banamine. He seems to be feeling better. I just hate confining him while the others can run free. Thankfully it raining hard, so they are all stuck inside. The next day or 2 it is supposed to rain.
Have you ever used a grazing muzzle. I may need to try one on him when we get through this mess.
Look forward to giving you a call. It has been total catch up since we got back. Now just a little more stress!!!!! Whatcha gonna do?
thanks
suz
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 29, 2006 - 9:28 pm:
Suz, The vet also told me that benamine is very effective for laminitis treatment and too as a preventative measure. When I asked them about the bute versus benamine plus some other questions they eventually asked if I was in the medical field! That's how much I learned from Dr O's articles. Have to confess I felt a little proud and a lot grateful for this site. Espiritu is on stall rest for 30 days with 2 walks a day. He is not a happy camper.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 30, 2006 - 8:59 am:
Susan either bute or Banamine would be acceptable in this situation. If a horse is lame in one foot this is probably something besides founder.
DrO
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 30, 2006 - 6:18 pm:
We still have the styrofoam on his foot, but he was much better today. Do I still need to give him the banamine if he does not seem to be in pain? I did not know if this was just for pain, or for it's anti-inflamatory blood flow aspect of treatment. I am going to take him to a vet on Wed and have x-ray done, and meet with my farrier there to see if we have rotation going on again, or what.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 6:36 am:
If this is founder, I would wean off NSAID's by trying 1/2 doses for several days.
DrO
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 10:43 am:
Hi Dr. O, I know it is difficult for you to help without seeing a horse, but in general, I would like your opinion. You have to understand my concern with the opinion of the vet that came to see Levi on Sat. He is the same one that I had called a year ago about a dog that was staying here with a classic bloat, he told me on the phone to try to roll him over, and that I had an hour or 2 before he could meet me, and that it was not a problem to wait that long. Another vet did emergency surgery and saved this dogs life.
That said, he was very vague on what could be wrong with levi, but said that he was not sore in the right foot, as indicated by the hoof tester. Levi would wince when he placed the hoof tester all over the sole of the left foot. He said to do the banamine, and pad and rest for 2 days.
I have kept him in for 2 days, this am I needed to clean his stall, and let him out with the boys for a 1/2 hour. When I opened the door, he zoomed out of the building, running on all fours. he trotted about, played with his buddy, then stopped and grazed. They all have been locked in because of the rain. So were a little wild, running and playing. I only kept him out for a 1/2 hour, called him in and gave him some hay. The pad had fallen off in his antics. He is putting even weight on all four and does not seem to be in any pain. I guess what I am asking, would this possibly be just an isolated incident, or should I be concerned about letting him out to graze again? I am still taking him in to x-ray that foot, since we need to keep an eye on that club foot. I just would like to let him out to graze, and play if it is not a problem with overload of spring grass that was this issue. Like I said he has been on this same pasture since winter, nothing new in feed stuff, the horses have kept it very short, it is only about 2 acres for 4 horses.
Sorry to be confused, but we have very little local resources.
thanks
suz
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Member:
Djws
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Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:00 pm:
Susan,
I, too, have a horse that is predisposed to Laminitis.
It is very difficult for me to watch him hang his head over the fence longing to graze our lush green spring grass. I just keep telling myself that it is what's best for him.
I was told that unless he was getting regular exercise that he was not to have any grain. He gets hay (not much alfalfa). This guy was overweight and our vet is now happy with his current weight.
Anyway, I use a grazing muzzle. He despises it. He doesn't attempt to get it off though. He WILL try to head butt me or anyone that he thinks is responsible for it being on him!
A few times I have had to put a little grain, carrots or grass in the muzzle to get it on him (he KNOWS what it is)!
I thought it would be good for him to be out in the pasture to run, roll and graze a little. Instead, he follows me to the gate, glares at me and takes off at a full gallop to the paddock (dry lot) where he stands and pouts with his muzzle on!
He knows he can eat and drink through it but, he no longer will even attempt it. He just gets plain angry. If it wasn't so frustrating, it would almost be funny. Seriously, he will return to the paddock and not even venture onto the grass with the contraption on!
If you buy a muzzle, I wish you better luck than I've had! I have a friend that has had much success with her 2 muzzled horses. I just keep trying.
No matter what...I don't ever want to see my guy in that pain again. It was terrible. (My vet had him on Bute, 2 times a day for several days and then we tapered it down as Dr. O suggests).
I read that short grass left by mowing or overgrazing can have high NSC (nonstructural carbohydrates) levels. Dr. O, what do you say?
When the grass isn't so rich and I return him to free grazing, I start with 15 to 20 minutes a day. I will increase the time 10 minutes every 3 days (always watching for foot soreness and heat in his feet and neck). I also rotate his pasture areas.
For now, I hand graze him on overcast days early in the morning (lower NSC??) for 10 to 15 minutes. It seems to appease him. It is a constant struggle. I am always worried that I will find him "rocking" when I return to the barn in the evening.
Good luck! I know what you're going through!
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:51 pm:
I let Levi out this morning again for about an hour. I had a friend over to see what she thought about how he was walking. He runs, trots and walks, with a bit of a throw out on that left foot. No head bobbing. I walked all around the pasture, and the grass literally is not 1/2 inch long, they have munched it down that low. I don't know if that is good or bad???
My horses are whistled trained, so when I blew the whistle to bring them all in Levi was leading the pack at a full gallop. I did feel his feet and legs. His left leg was warmer than the right, not hot, but definately warmer than the right. I put on his big mac, and stuffed it with rolled cotton. An hour later I felt his leg and it was the same temp as the right foot? Walking pretty normal, not at all like he was on Saturday? Wish I knew what to check. I guess I will have to wait until Wednesday. I am going to let him out for a short time again later, to clean stalls again. I think I will leave the boot on, in case it is sole bruise or abscess. I wish they could talk.
thanks for your input DJ, I wish I could borrow a muzzle to try out before I order one. I will sometimes use muzzles in my dog training. Some of the dogs, will go sit in a corner and pout also, so I know what you mean.
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 6:08 pm:
If he is sound there is little that you can look for Susan: whatever was causing the lameness is not there. I am not sure what I recommend at this time. Let's turn the horse out and see what happens.
I have seen the thoughts on afternoon vs morning, long vs short grass, and really don't see how they change much since we cannot monitor the levels of NSC's including fructans, nor do we know what levels are acceptable. If would appear these numbers are different for different horses. Horses prone to grass founder need to be kept off it during the times of year it causes problems and what will work and won't is experimental. Around here on cool season grasses it is the spring and fall for most horses.
DrO
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 12:12 pm:
Well, he is limping with a head bob today. Put the pad back on, in the stall, waiting for what the x-ray shows us tomorrow. I guess I can only hope for the best 
suz
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Member:
Djws
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Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 3:27 pm:
Suz-
There is a muzzle on www.countrysupply.com, item number BRK61 for $16.95 (was $29.95). It looks identical to the one I use. I wish I had an extra...I'd send it to you to try out.
You and Levi are in my thoughts and prayers.
Stay positive!
DJ
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 6:51 pm:
Thanks DJ, I will check that out. He is always a bit on the hefty size, so I think it would be a good investment. He is an easy keeper, and pretty much lives to eat.
He is very lame tonight, still eating, but walking at a step - stop - step -stop. Still seems to be just that left foot. Dreading the vet trip, but looking forward to an answer, so I can worry about something more concrete I guess.
Thanks for your prayers and good wishes!
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 10:34 pm:
Lameness that worsens over a day or two this way are frequently abscesses.
DrO
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 3:38 pm:
Not good news. Levi has about a 10 degree rotation in his left foot. It looks very similar to how it looked when we started this saga, in august of 04. By October of last year he was looking really good on x-ray. We got lax on the x-ray and trimming. This vet thought we were leaving too much toe lately, but that he had no idea what could have caused the sudden lameness and rotation. Nothing new had changed in Levi's life. The only thing is that over time I had noticed that he was flipping his left foot in the last month or two. and the frog was deeping. WE are back to square one, they cut off the toe, moved the break point back, stall rest for a week. The only good thing is he does have more sole than last time when we went through this.
Basically this vet said that when they have had laminitis before, it can take looking at the sun wrong to bring on another bout. Just have to not get lax in managing.
So Sad!
Suz
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Member:
Lilo
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Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 6:44 pm:
Dear Susan,
I am so sorry to hear about this diagnosis. Wishing you and Levi the best of luck in managing
this.
Lilo
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 9:19 pm:
Susan, I continue to remain confused over what is happening. Are they saying this recent bout of lameness is founder? Was the horse lame in just one leg or both and is there rotation in the right? How much?
DrO
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 10:04 pm:
Unfortunately, I am just as confused. The first vet gave me no information, just confirmed what I knew, he is lame. This vet did a hoof test on his left foot, he was sore on all points, even when he squeezed on the sides. He used a hoof tester on the right foot, and absolutely no reaction at all. He did 2 pictures on the left, but none on the right. He just told the farrier to cut back on the toes on both feet, and move the shoes back. He did a thyroid test to rule out any thyroid problems that could have caused this. They did not call it founder. This vet more or less indicated that his toes got too long. My gut tells me that when my farrier DrOpped him into a regular flat shoe, this may have put gradual pull on that shortened tendon. He started with the foot flipping shortly after the flat shoes. He was in these about a month, a week ago I told him that he was flipping his foot and felt we should put him back in the raised heel shoes. A week to the day he came up lame? This vet did not think that it was a grass founder, since he was not sore on both feet, and no change at all to his feeding or stress level. No one has an answer for me. I am only left with trying to figure out what to do next. The vet said to x-ray in 4-6 weeks. My concern is that he is still sore, and limping, even after the adjustment of the shoes. Is this normal to still have pain for a few days or week, or should he have had immediate relief upon the shifting of the breaking point? I am to give bute 1gm 2 x day for the next few days, and stall rest. Unfortunately, he paces back and forth in the stall, where if I could put him out to graze with his friends, in a small area he would relax more? I only wish I had confidence in the advice I receive here locally.
Because we have not had a change in feed or schedule, they don't think it is food, but don't know for sure. I want to wrap him in bubble wrap. He needs to eat, if he is confined, I need to give him something to do. Aaaarrg. I don't want to make a mistake, and worsen his outcome.
I don't know why they did not x-ray both feet, but the farrier said they did not feel the need to.????
thanks
suz
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 12:45 am:
Suz this sounds quite distressing. I am following the thread closely and have nothing useful to say at all at this point. My horse is just being a pig with stall rest and our other efforts to prevent laminitis that can show up as a consequence to enteritis. So I do understand the challenges of that.
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Member:
Frances
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Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 7:24 am:
Sorry to hear this Susan. It must be so frustrating and disheartening for you.
I too often wonder if confinement in a small outside area right from the start would not be an acceptable alternative to complete stall rest. They get so upset when kept in, and behave in ways such as pacing (as with Levi), or stall wall kicking (as with my horse) which frequently cause other problems/injuries.
Just being able to gaze into the distance and watch the world go by keeps their mental state much closer to normal.
All the best,
Lynn
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 10:54 am:
Susan, I too am so sorry to hear this. You've been through so much! Positive healing vibes to you and Levi.
Do you have panels? Could you set up a small enclosure for him in a pasture where other horses are? ... with no/or minimal grass of course.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 9:47 pm:
Thanks for all of your kind words. They really mean alot! I do have panels, and was thinking of roping off a small section. The first time this happened I was out of town, tending to my sick mom, so I do not know how long it was that he was really limping. But he could be walking funny because they did a drastic angle change as well. His eyes are bright, he is hungry and acts pretty normal, just anxious when kept alone. I am making his pasture buddies take turns being locked in with him for now. I just wonder how long he will be sore, a week, a month a day. Should he be walking better since they fixed his shoes? How do I know it is correct? The last time it had been 2 month before I found a vet and farrier that even diagnosed the rotation. The day they shoed him, I brought him home and worked him in the round pen. But he was in real pain while at the trainers after the initial lameness for probably 2 weeks. He was confined to a stall at that time. This was after a horrible trimming.
Perhaps a nice glass of wine is prescribed! Just need to relax and not worry too much I guess.
thanks again
suz
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Member:
Dyduroc
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Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 10:39 pm:
Susan, I was so sorry to read that Levi's had a setback. You've really been through a lot!
There's nothing I can add except to say I'll keep you in my prayers.
Please keep us posted.
D.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 10:41 pm:
Susan without knowing what is wrong specific advice is difficult. Concerning diet you should feed as per the instructions in the article for the possible founder since there is rotation. By feeding a stemmy hay you can offer it free choice and that should keep the horse quieter. There is an article for what to do when you do not know what is causing the lameness and I do not have better advice at this time other than seeking another opinion, see Equine Diseases » Lameness » First Aid for the Lame Horse.
DrO
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Friday, May 5, 2006 - 1:02 am:
Susan, I've been following this closely; as you may know, I've had my problems with laminitis, also. I feel for you - and Levi. I am lucky because I have large turnout area which is mostly dirt, that I can put him in along with one of his buddies. It is so hard to keep them separated from everyone, and to see them standing in the dirt while all the other horses are nose to the grass in the fields. Poor Levi, and consequently, poor you. Best wishes. Hang in there.
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Member:
Savage
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Posted on Friday, May 5, 2006 - 5:45 pm:
Susan, I am also pulling for you, I have been there and done that. Crossing fingers for you 
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Friday, May 5, 2006 - 7:10 pm:
I am so thankful for all of you. I woke up at 5:30 am entering anxietyville. Worrying about what if, what I should have done, what did I do wrong???? I came to my Horse Advice friends and there you all were. And thanks to Dr. O for providing such a great sight for all of us! Even at 5:45 am, I was able to find support. Thanks to all who understand! Levi is still sore, but he is up and walking flat footed,and screaming bloody murder, about the fact that his buddies are out and about! I am trying to stay strong, and keep him confined. It is soooo hard when it is a beautiful day outside.
Suz
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Member:
Lorid
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Posted on Friday, May 5, 2006 - 8:25 pm:
Susan, I am very happy to hear that Levi is feeling better, and you too. I can't imagine how hard it must be for you. Perseverance pays off!
Lori
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 12:04 am:
Poor Levi. I know just how he feels. Like being laid up with a broken ankle while your husband is out skiing! Glad he's feeling some better. Hope it continues.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 7:09 am:
Susan, for help with keeping him happy in see, Training Horses » Behavioral Problems » Stall Resting Horses.
DrO
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 2:49 pm:
I hadn't seen that article, Suz, I'm going to try the hanging-hay-net. Lets compare notes and see how our 2 currently stall-confined horses respond.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 4:30 pm:
Dr. O, Levi is still looking sore. The farrier will be back in town this next weekend. I am going to have our local vet come out and do x-rays to compare with the ones done on Wednesday, to be sure there has been no more rotation. I only hope they know what they are doing? The vet I went to last year is 2 hours and a gazillion dollars in gas away. So I am hoping we can resolve this locally.
My farrier, who really did a great job with Levi, and I trust him, up until we let him go too long this last time,was wondering about applying silicon gel inserts to help cushion his feet? What are your feelings on this? I was going to put his styrofoam pads back on for the day time while he is pacing about and taking them off at night to get air. Do You think that is ok? The most recent vet really scared me saying that if he moves around too much and the foot rotates, it could pop out the bottom, have to do surgery etc. etc. When do you know that the rotation has become stable??? Or are these questions for God??
The farrier will be up on Friday, so I will have x-rays done again on Thurs. next week. I am going to have him do the right foot as well.
thanks
suz
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Sunday, May 7, 2006 - 1:37 am:
Susan: I don't know if the gel has been discussed somewhere else, but I'm in love with the stuff. I certainly wouldn't put it on a foot with any thrush or abscess problems - white line disease etc., but when thin or sore soles are involved, it's like giving your horse a pair of sneakers.
My Navicular mare was so much more comfortable with the stuff. We did stop using it for awhile but only because in winter it was a little difficult to work with. The mare was miserable until we could arrange for the gel.
My mare with flat feet and thin soles is a new horse with the stuff.
My farrier uses a rim pad to help hold the stuff. The horses have had it on for about a year or so.
There are no snowballs in the winter, and no picking out the "gelled" feet. The Navicular is shod about every 5 weeks, and "flat-feet thin sole" is 6 to 8 weeks depending on hoof growth. So far, their soles look better than they ever did before, although I admit I hold my breath at each shoeing. I like the idea that the gel seems to be extremely non - reactive and seems to apply uniform pressure to the sole overall. No stone bruises, no calluses, no thrushey areas....I love it! Phtu...phtu...phtu...
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, May 7, 2006 - 11:23 am:
Lee, what gel? Did I miss something and need another cup of coffee to get my eye open? Is this silicone gel you're talking about? Thanks.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Sunday, May 7, 2006 - 11:29 am:
Thanks Lee, I don't know what to do. Levi is even lamer ( if that is a word) than yesterday. I put the pads back on his feet today, but you can see by his eyes that he is not a happy camper. I think I will have them come out to do x-rays tomorrow. If possible I would like to send them to the vet that is 2 hours away so he can evaluate them and see if he would advise my farrier as to what steps to take. I hate to put him through a 4 hour ride, with painful feet in a bouncy trailer, if I do not have to.
Dr. O - at what point do you decide to do the tendon cutting surgery? Is the timing crucial on this? It sounds like a final step.
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Sunday, May 7, 2006 - 3:10 pm:
Lee, pray tell....what gel? I need more info, I may have 3 candidates at the ready! Thanx
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Sunday, May 7, 2006 - 4:59 pm:
Hi, susan I used the pour in pads (eqithane) on a mare that had foundered and the worked very well. The one thing we found out tho was to just use it in the heel area, so as to not put pressure on the toe. We rolled her toe applied the equithane and shoes and she went running off when we let her go! She could hardly walk beforehand. If Levi has an abscess brewing this is not a good idea unless you are well versed at pulling shoes. Is he just lame on one foot? Is there heat and a pulse in them? I ask because if he is very sore due to laminitis it probably wouldn't be a good idea to go pounding on his feet. That said I have done it when they are very sore by giving 2 grams bute 2- 4 hrs. before the farrier is due. Then have the farrier do the worst one first that way they can stand on it better with the support. I don't know if you have ever visited the website horseshoes.com but their is alot of information in there from farriers about founder. It is frustrating but hopefully with your good care Levi will pull thru this. Even a small bout of laminitis takes a long time for them to recover, be patient. (I know that is hard) Another thing I have found is you should leave the styrofoam on 24/7. USUALLY if it is founder it will help right away.(if applied right) If it is an abscess it will make it worse usually because of the pressure on the sole. This is all just my experience and every horse is different. Good Luck
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Sunday, May 7, 2006 - 10:42 pm:
Hi Diane & Ilona too. Ilona, I tried the hay net trick. Levi definately worked hard at getting the hay and kept him busy with it swinging.
I put the styrofoam on both feet, he definately had relief but still walking tenderly. I decided to take him out into the soft grassy training yard to work with his grazing muzzle training. Well I had him on a long line, and he just went bananas. He had been in for a week now. Before i could close the gate, He took off running and bucking, yanking the long line. Not a very big yard, but I still looked like an idiot running him down. I only hope he did not do any damage. It was the happiest I have seen him all week though. I only hope the pads protected his feet. He puts all of his weight on both feet, does not stand in the typical founder stance. I will leave the foam on until I can get another opinion on what is going on. I let move along, learning his grazing muzzle for a while longer, then returned him to his stall.
We are taking in all the good wishes, I hope they work.
thanks
suz
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Sunday, May 7, 2006 - 10:51 pm:
Dr. O or Diane? Anyone. How would I know if this is an abscess brewing? We know he has the rotation, but it really seems to be one foot. It was sore all over with the hoof tester. Even the side walls were sore. But when he removed and re set the shoe, he never winced much. It is a mystery.
Can't wait to sleep through the night again, will it happen?????
suz
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 7:10 am:
Well susan all I can do is speak from my exreriences with abscesses and laminitis, when Hank had his abscess last year the vets actually thought it was founder. He too tested sore all over his sole on left front. He went from being laying down in pain to galloping around the next day it was all very odd. After about 2 very long mos. it burst in 3 different places. Hank never minded the shoes being put on either. When we put a shoe with the silicon pak in he moved great, for about 3 days, then the abscesses decided to pop. He was in extreme pain because he had the pad and pack on and I don't know how to pull a shoe, and of course it was a weekend. We pulled the shoes finally and when the abscess finished (6 weeks) for 3 of them he was much improved. So what I guess I am saying sometimes it is hard to tell the difference. I would play it safe and treat it as founder until you know for sure. My gelding had foundered, which led to the abscesses. We are now galloping around the hills. This winter he lost almost 200#'s. and remains on a fairly strict diet, however since the weight loss and getting exercise I now am able to let him graze for 5 hrs. a day. If he gains an ounce of weight that will be restricted.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 7:14 am:
Concerning an abscess it is a diagnosis usually made from physical examination, the clinical signs of an abscess are in the article Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Hoof Abscesses, Bruises, and Gravels. Tendon cutting is done when there is an attempt to prevent ongoing rotation.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 7:15 am:
Susan how old is Levi?
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 9:54 am:
Hi Diane, Levi is 6 - his birthday is May 21! He is very lame today. I am hoping to get an x-ray done on both front feet today, and then try to figure out what to do. His lameness seems to come and go. Of course, I hope his short spin around the yard did not cause more problems.
I will read the article on abscesses again.
thanks
suz
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 10:37 am:
Good luck with the x-rays. Let us know what you find out. Hopefully it will turn out to be an abscess, even tho they are a big pain. It's better than founder.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 10:53 am:
Forgot to mention maybe you should pull blood for insulin and glucose when the vet is there. That could maybe tell you if he is sensitive to sugars. He may be insulin resistant considering he is a easy keeper, which can lead to ongoing bouts of laminitis if not kept in check. Just another thing to throw at ya.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 12:06 pm:
Thanks Diane, the vet on Wednesday pulled blood, but only told me that the thyroid was normal. Do you suppose he would have checked that as well, or would I have had to ask him to? When Hank had his problems did he have any rotation? How long was it that he was sore, before you discovered the abscess. I just talked with another vet who was to come out and do the x-ray here. He was a bit indignant about having to come out to do the x-ray and then having me send them to another vet for an opinion. He is the same vet that 1/1/2 years ago looked at Levi and said I should take him to a specialist in lameness. We are 2 hours away, and with gas the price it is, plus the discomfort a 4 hour trailer ride would impose on Levi, I am just trying to be attentive to the problem. I hope I am not being over neurotic, it may be that like you said I just need to be patient. The other farrier who first worked on Levi in 11/04 put him in a Rocker shoe. He was sound right away. Unfortunately it cost $190 for the farrier, + gas + vet call. Financially, I really need to find a way to work with my farrier here. He had done a great job, up until this problem, we have been sound for year plus.
I am so glad you are all here. My non-horsey friends don't understand and are probably tired of me whining.
The 2 hour away vet, just called and said he would be happy to review the x-rays. He is such a comforting guy!
thanks
suz
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 2:23 pm:
Hank had a bout with laminitis last April, he then started with the abscess around July I believe. They didn't stop until sept. He again had a bout of founder in Jan. I think due to long toes, getting too fat, and having alfalfa. He was x-rayed in Jan. and has around 5 degree rotation. I had 2 different vets look at my x-rays and also posted them here for Dr.O. to evaluate. My vet doesn't mind second opinions, he even welcomes them. The farrier on the other hand doesn't. The cheapest route at this time, which isn't always the best and sometimes the worst way to go would be to put the styrofoams on and change them when they get smushed down. Then put him on a major diet of absolutely no grass or grain. Stemmy hay or soaked hay to get the sugars out and see if he stabilizes. If he is overweight GET TOUGH and get the weight off, believe me they adjust and it is much easier for them to be in good weight to a little skinny if they are prone to founder. Hank can now graze grass, eat safechoice pellets and even tolerate a little alfalfa with the extra pounds off. He still needs to lose about 75#'s for me to be happy and it is still coming off slowly. He is never in a dry lot anymore. Sooo try to get tough, really tough with his diet and maybe he can go back to being a normal horse. It don't hurt them to go a little hungry just add a good vit/min. mix to his something that isn't grain. I talked with my vet over the phone quite a bit when Hank went thru this and he helped me alot. I hate to repeat myself but everytime I talked to him it was get #300"s off him and it won't matter what his feet look like. It was true, altho he has only lost #200's at this time. It is very hard for me not to just quit micro manageing him and let him graze all day, so I took a picture of him when he was sore and foundering and put it where I have to look at it all the time. It keeps me from over feeding and staying tough. He is the picture of health now and very happy looking instead.
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Member:
Echoval
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Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 4:01 pm:
I had two horses founder last spring really bad on grass because we had so much rain I used InflammaSaver by Figuerola labs. I got it from Valley Vet Supply phone # 1-800-356-1005 web sight www.valleyvet.com there you can check on what they say about the product before you order it Email me if any Questions farrier said their feet look great echoval@mwt.net
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 1:53 am:
Susan and Ilona: I'm not sure of the name, but it's more of an epoxy - two separate tubes are inserted into one, ummm, caulk gun thing with a common tip that mixes the two substances together as it is fed into the newly shod hoof. It hardens in about 30 seconds. I think it is called Equi-pak. I only use it on the front feet of two of my mares. My third mare, just purchased last Dec., is bare foot and has perfect feet - I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT TO DO WITH PERFECT FEET! AND GREAT LEGS! It's outside my range of experience.
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 3:59 pm:
Thanx Lee,
I'm going to look into that...and thanks for the giggle I had when you referred to absence of experience with perfect feet!
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 9:46 pm:
The vet came out today, and after 2 attempts got a set of x-rays. The first set he did not get the bottom of the shoe in, he came back and again did not get the bottom of the shoe in. He was leaving town, so that is all I was able to get to send to the doctor in South Dakota. I think that they are a little peeved at me for going to a specialist. I heard through the grapevine that this practice said I was "vet shopping". I guess my loyalty is to my horse, and if I am not getting him to feel better, then I have to keep looking - not settling, Right???
Anyhow, the right foot also has some rotation. I do not know if this is new since the incident on Saturday or what since the 2nd vet did not x-ray both feet. I am so frustrated.
I have over-nighted the x-ray to the vet who was able to help Levi become sound after his first bout with this, with hopes he can advise the farrier how to get him on the road to wellness.
Diane, I mentioned to the 3rd vet today about the glucose, insulin thing, and he said "well yeah, I have heard of that". He was in a hurry to go on a hunting trip.
I had a dump truck load of sand delivered and spread around the small paddock so Levi could get some sun. He was still limping, but walking a bit better today. I took the foam off for x-rays and will put it back on tomorrow, just want to be sure to get air in there.
Will probably know more on Friday aft. when the farrier comes.
Lee, thanks for the chuckle too! I heard a story about a little boy who told the veterinarian that he knew everything there is to know about horses. The veterinarian chuckled and said "you do, eh?" "Yup" said the little boy, "they have 4 dangerous legs and there's always something wrong with them!"
Thanks all
suz
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 1:06 am:
Hi Suz,
I have decided that we are not here to make nice with vets, they are there to do their job well, like DR. O and, if they don't, we must keep looking until we find one who does. It's no different to looking for a good doctor, dentist, attorney, therapist...what-ever. There is so much potentially dangerous mediocrity in the world and most people are either unknowing or simply willing to just accept it. Good for you. Its also harder if you are in a smaller community, choices are limited unless you are willing to expand the distance radius.
Hearing about Levi makes me so apprehensive about Espritu's future, he's just 5.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 6:19 am:
If I understand the situation right you have a horse that has been acutely lame for 10 days and the cause remains unknown or at the least uncertain. You are not veterinarian shopping Susan, you are looking for a diagnosis and those uncertain at this time should look forward to the help.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 7:35 am:
Hi Susan, Have you looked in Dr.O.'s articles under Endocrine Diseases >Equine Metabolic SynDrOme< it explains insulin resistance and it's relation to founder. I am not saying this is his problem, but it is a good read none the less. Lucky Levi, the sand is a wonderful idea. Have you tightened his diet up? Is he on any bute? If I recall on Dr.O."s founder article, bute is good for the acute phase. I kept Hank on 1gram 2x's a day, then weaned down when he stabilized. It made him alot more comfy, as long as you don't mistake the good feeling from bute and quit your management. He didn't get out with bute in him. Good luck with your new vet, I know how frustrating it is. I switched vets and it was the best thing I ever did. It was hard too tho.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 9:41 am:
Dr O. Levi is still lame today. Now I have a new symptom. I would call the vets here, but why? Levi has a red weeping skin condition from the pole of his head to about 8 " down his neck. It is hair loss, wet sticky. Could it be from boredom scratching his neck, or is this a symptom of something. I asked the vet yesterday to check his lungs, since he has been confined in sawdust and I thought I heard a weird breath every once in while when his head was down grazing. He asked if he coughed, I said no. He then went on to talk about my other horse who has heaves, and that was the end of the discussion. I assumed that the lungs sounded ok. Is this a symptom of the metabolic thing? I am so lost.
thanks
suz
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 2:57 pm:
I am going to try uploading. I have never had luck before. But perhaps you can look at Levi, he is a big boy, and see if he is a candidate, also the crusty neck thing is lower than I thought. I got human cortizone cream to put on it, because I don't know what else to do.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 8:20 pm:
Yep Susan I'd say he looks fat, from his neck anyway. I would definately get him on a diet. Maybe Dr.O. can give you advice on that. I know he has a good article in here about dieting fat horses, just don't remember where I saw it. He'll feel much better with the weight off.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 10:03 pm:
I am trying to post a whole shot of Levi, but it says it is too big, I don't know how to shrink it. Geez, if the rest of his body is too big for the picture then maybe he is too fat! I know that is just computer talk for too many something or others, I just don't know how to make it fit the requirements.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 11:37 pm:
Ilona, just out of curiosity, did you have a post on Espritu's problems? I missed them, and would like to catch up. I heard from the Vet in South Dakota and he is very concerned with the left foot. He will talk with my farrier and advise him, but would like to see him pour in some epoxy filling or something, plus cut back his heel to get the palmer angle better aligned???? Again he wants to go with the rocker shoe. I know that my farrier is not a fan of the rocker, and does not work with them, since they have to be specifically designed, so he will work with him on whatever my farrier is comfortable working with. He basically said that there is a lot of seperation of the laminia from the hoof wall, so even after he is comfortable, wants me to keep him confined for a few weeks, and hand walk. He also said they could do a test for the metabolic disorder, and has had good luck with something like "chromium" or something. I will find out more about that when we get through this crisis.
He basically said that Levi has 3 strikes against him, his weight, the previous laminitis and his feet loosing the proper trimming over time. So, we can work on this for now. Getting the weight off, like Diane said will be our first goal.
Boy do I envy those people that throw their horses out in the fields, barely spend any time with them, and seem to have no problems at all. I will try to sleep better, at least we seem to have a plan.
Don't know what's up with the skin thing. Seems like bumps on his under the hair on his neck that he is itching on the post?
Thanks again
Suz
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 7:14 am:
Hi Susan glad you have a diagnosis anyway. Hank has separation also and I am still working on that. It may never go away completely. With a good farrier you should be able to get it better tho. Supplements are not the cure, diet is. I do have Hank on a product called Remission, it has Magnesium, chromium, biotin, and amino acids in it. I don't know if it helps, but it makes me feel better. You can buy it at Valley Vet and it is actually pretty cheap. Good luck as I hope Levi starts his road to recovery. To post pictures, look in art and entertainment section under images. I use the picasa. It took me a day to figure it out, but I am not very puter literate. Good Luck
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 8:19 am:
Susan you should stop the steroid cream as it is worsen the skin condition and there may be a relation between this and your skin disease and though less likely even the founder. Your description of hair loss and weeping is not enough to diagnose the condition but certainly until you get a diagnosis you should give it a good antibacterial bath and treat it as a bacterial skin infection. For more on this see, Equine Diseases » Skin Diseases » Hair and Coat Problems / Itching / Irritated Skin » Overview of Hair Loss & Irritated Skin.
Personally I am not a fan of a supplement like Remission. I have seen the work on chromium and insulin sensitivity, which has recently been questioned, but even if so this supplement does not have anywhere near the doses that are consistent with the research and personally have not seen help with it. In a horse with a otherwise good diet there is nothing here that is helpful for EMS.
If everyone is going to insist this is a founder, Diane's question is a good one Susan: are you following our recommendations on treatment, feeding, and management? This horse does look obese to me and a candidate for Equine Metabolic SynDrOme.
Concerning managing images for upload see, News & Help » Uploading Images and Files Into a Posting.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 10:02 am:
Dr.O. What is the amount of chromium that is recommended? I do understand it is all speculative, but just curious.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 11:03 am:
Dr. O, I have been feeding him strictly grass hay, We only have a brome dry hay left to feed. I do have some alfalfa/timothy/orchard grass mix, but it is pretty leafy. They other is straight alfalfa, small stems and very rich and leafy. I feed him about 8-10 oz of safechoice pellets with Farnam's biotin + supplement. I have been putting the hay in a haynet to make it a bit more interesting for him. There is also some grass hay laying around in the stall for something to do all day long.
Unfortunately no one has diagnosed it as anything. The general consensus, is no one knows what caused the problem. I have not heard the word founder from anyone, just that the coffin bone has rotated and has pulled away from the hoof wall. I still think that we lost our way in managing his trimming schedule which could have been gradually working on weakening the laminae. Because all of sudden he was lame, perhaps he did a major trauma out running around on Friday night and came up lame the next day. Is that a reasonable explanation? He had been flipping out that left foot for about 3 weeks before he was put back into the raised heel. Maybe we changed the angle too severely so that the insides of the hoof just got all screwed up. I guess the reality is we need to DrOp the weight, regardless, get his feet back on to a less painful angle, and try not to have a nervous breakdown in the meantime. I am reluctant to give up the safechoice, because it has vitamins and minerals in it.
Will stop the steroid and work on a bacterial wash. We do dog grooming, and have medicated bacterial shampoos, would they work on the horse?
I hope to soon stop bugging everyone, and go back to just surfing the other posts, but do appreciate you continued support.
thanks
suz
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 11:06 am:
just found the part that says shampoos are not the best, will look for lamisil or some other anti-fungal stuff I guess.
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 12:48 pm:
Hi Suz, yes I did have 2 brief posts re Espiritu. They referenced Enteritis, laminitis and Orleander. Dr O. ,as usual, was gracious and helpful.
At last I have a visual of Levi. He is heavy and also looks so sweet.
Espiritu has slowly accepted his confined fate, and does enjoy the perpetual motion hanging hay sack. I have the opposite problem, he DrOpped significant weight during his 12 day hospital stay and we need to build weight without risking the development of laminitis. We have a fabulous farrier who's one liability is a touch of arrogance, so I have to manage him with the came attention I do my horses, however, like horses, with patience and repetition he is quite trainable. ( I hope he never reads this site, I will have just lost him for-ever!)
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 3:07 pm:
trying again I think I did it. This was yesterday. He seems to stand square. He has always been a big horse, I don't remember him ever being small.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 5:05 pm:
Good job Susan! He is very cute. Is it the pic or is that swelling by his shoulder and up around his neck on the front? It APPEARS his shoulder area is quite swollen.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 5:35 pm:
Great pic, Susan. I agree with Diane that there seems to be a swelling above the point of his left shoulder. I forgot . . . is he a Morgan?
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 5:35 pm:
I'm not dyslexic . . . really . . . I meant his RIGHT shoulder.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 5:37 pm:
You know I noticed that in the picture, but not on him personally. Weird. I just had a gal that works for me look at his skin, his whole neck and shoulder on that side seems affected. She thought it looked like small hives, and said her horse developed hives from being confined and nervous. Who knows. I really wanted a small, short horse when I got him as a baby. I am only 5'1", so getting on him is not done without assistance.
He is moving around pretty good today. Tomorrow we will re-set the shoes, add either pads or pour in epoxy stuff and go from there.
He does not now, nor has he ever had that founder stance everyone talks about.
I have the picture of his x-ray in my window, to keep me from over feeding, as you suggested.
Do you think that my feeding schedule is ok?
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 5:45 pm:
Thanks Holly, I really do love him to death! Unfortunately, he is big spoiled dog! He actually is a registered foundation quarter horse. Whatever foundation means??? His sire was a huge, muscular black stallion, momma was a buckskin, hence the silly nose! I know dogs obviously! Levi knows how to stay, come, come to heel and heel, he shakes picks the treat, bows, steps up on a huge rock. Does stupid pet tricks. The down side of his spoiling, we are experiencing now, i am afraid.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 6:00 pm:
Susan, Hank never took the founder stance either, he just walked very gingerly. My mare who WAS actually fatter than Hank had shoulders that looked like that. The vet said it was fat hmmm. Since her weight loss it has diappeared.(almost) Your feeding sounds alright to me. When Hank went on his diet he got 3 flakes of pure grass stemmy hay a day. 4oz of safechoice pellets watered down it poofs up and kinda makes a mash and it seemed like more, plus it's great to add supps to. He even ate his bute in it. I was just looking at pics of Hanks weight loss progress and it is quite amazing. I weight tape him every 2 weeks to make sure he isn't gaining.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 7:03 pm:
Susan, the way he stands over his front legs does not suggest founder or even pain at the toe. Using the condition scale in the nutrition topic what would you grade him? What are the chances you could post the radiographs, some scanners pick up the image on a radiograph pretty well. Others have taken digital photos of the radiograph on a viewer.
DrO
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 10:00 pm:
Dr. O, I read over the scale, and my uneducated guess would be a high 7 -low 8. He has a pretty flat back, slight dip, no fat on his tail head to speak of. I can feel his ribs by just pushing on his skin. He does have a cresty mane though. His neck and shoulders have kinda dents on just that one side. He really is not spongy fat, not muscular either, just solid. I have asked every vet about his weight, no one said he was obese, just that he could "afford to lose a few pounds". What would you grade him at? I will have the x-rays back tomorrow, so will experiment. He has styrofoam pads on and is walking much better today than yesterday. I hope that we will have even more improvement after the farrier comes tomorrow.
Should I stop the bute if he is walking fairly well? He still head bobs. I have him cut down to 1 gm in the am.
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 1:44 am:
Susan: Do you have any bugs out yet? Could the neck thing be from culicoides ( sweet itch )?
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 2:17 am:
Ilona: We had a discussion awhile back on the care and maintenance of our farriers. To our horror, we discovered we were all stuffing them with food and goodies! Shocked, we realized we were contributing to creating a nation of farriers who would soon look like our plumbers. It was a FRIGHTENING discussion.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 7:55 am:
Sounds closer to a seven than a eight and that is what I think his picture looks like too, I just could not judge the rib coverage. We need to get him down to a 5/6 to help protect the feet so lets cut out the concentrate and see if the hay alone will do that. I would feed a vitamin supplement with such a diet and the article on vitamins in the nutrition topic makes specific recommendations. This may necessitate a little bit of pellets.
Concerning the chromium dosage question above upon research I have made a mistake. I thought the dosage amounts in the Remission I had read were in micrograms and not milligrams. Common dosages in humans are 500 to 1000 mug (micrograms). The 14 mg (milligrams) in the Remission would be a consistent equivalent dose based on body weight. However my statements about the effectivenenss of chromium being controversial still stand and none of the other ingredients are likely to have medical benefit with respect to EMS in a good diet. In what looks like the best study I can find to date:
Diabetes Care. 2006 Mar;29(3):521-5.
Chromium treatment has no effect in patients with poorly controlled, insulin-treated type 2 diabetes in an obese Western population: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial.
Kleefstra N, Houweling ST, Jansman FG, Groenier KH, Gans RO, Meyboom-de Jong B, Bakker SJ, Bilo HJ.
Department of Internal Medicine, Isala Clinics, Weezenlanden Location, P.O. Box 10500, 8000 GM Zwolle, Netherlands.
OBJECTIVE: Chromium treatment has been reported to improve glycemic control and insulin sensitivity in specific populations of patients with type 2 diabetes. The aim of this study was to determine the effect of chromium treatment on glycemic control in a Western population of insulin-dependent patients with type 2 diabetes. RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS: In this 6-month double-blind study, patients with an HbA(1c) (A1C) >8% and insulin requirements of >50 units/day were randomly assigned to receive treatment with placebo or 500 or 1,000 mug chromium daily in the form of chromium picolinate. The primary efficacy parameter was a change in A1C. Secondary end points were changes in lipid profile, BMI, blood pressure, and insulin requirements. RESULTS: In this per-protocol analysis (n = 46), the decrease in A1C was approximately equal across the three groups (0.4%). All patients had a BMI >25 kg/m(2). No differences were found in the secondary end points. We found a weak relationship between an increasing serum chromium concentration and improvement of the lipid profile. CONCLUSIONS: There is no evidence that high-dose chromium treatment is effective in obese Western patients with type 2 diabetes.
Being T2 diabetic myself this is consistant with what I found several years ago, chromium picolinate did not change my A1C.
DrO
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 5:32 pm:
Thanks Melissa for the vote of confidence. I know now why God did not give me "real" children. The furry/hairy ones give me enough grief.
I am feeling much better today. The farrier came, consulted with the vet in south dakota. they too took off a small amount of heel, moved the shoe back some. He did not put the epoxy in yet, as he felt he was walking without much pain, and did not want to put anything in there. If he has any pain, he may come back on Monday and apply the gel. He is still walking tender footedly, but not really bobbing his head, or short stepping. If anything he is trying to run me over to get out and do something. I am going to try to post a picture of the x-ray of his left foot. It is a poor quality but it may show something.
thanks again.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 5:37 pm:
Lee, my farrier thought it might be bugs. I see his eye is a bit weepy, it has been very windy and I caught him rubbing his whole face on the wood in his stall. Here I hope is the x-ray
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 5:39 pm:
This is the right foot - The vet that took this x-ray said he thought the right foot looked worse than the left. The southdakota vet said he was not concerned with the right foot.
He has never had sensitivity in the right foot. 
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Member:
Juliem
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Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 11:55 pm:
Wow Susan, I'm no vet, but the left is clearly rotated, with a steeper palmar angle (bottom of the coffin bone relative to the ground surface). Ideally they would be almost parallel. Also, you can see the alignment of the bones in each leg is "broken". I wonder if lowering the heels would help that. The left shoe seems to be too far forward putting his breakover well in front of the tip of the coffin bone. The right isn't as bad. What was the vet refering to in the right xray that looked worse? When were these radiographs taken and do you have any previous ones to compare? Easy to see why he's lame on that left!! Did the farrier have radiographs in front of him when he put these shoes on?
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 7:52 am:
Gees Susan the left does look bad, hopefully Dr.O. can help you here, but I would think they need more support then a regular shoe. I don't know. On the other hand I have seen this kind of rotation somewhat derotated, using Dr.O.'s suggestions in his article on derotation.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 7:17 pm:
Hi All, he is not in a regular shoe, the x-ray was not a very good one, the vet took it 2 x and still did not get the shoe in. It is a raised heel aluminum shoe. He had him cut off some of the heel this time, and pushed the shoe back even more. He is walking 95% better. He is still being confined, and I have not given him any bute for 2 days.
Dr. O, does he need the bute if he is not acting sore? It has been 2 weeks today since he came up lame. I can't believe I survived. I hope we are on our way.
The first time this happened it was almost as bad, and it took about 8-9 months before we saw a better derotation. Not perfect, but much better.
I have about a million x-rays to compare with since this all started. The farrier will be back in 3 weeks to check on him.
I am not sure what you mean by "broken" but please try not to freak me out any more than I already am. I think I finally am calming down.
thanks
suz
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 7:22 pm:
We Went from about where it is now in 11/04 to this in 10/05
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Member:
Mleeb
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Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 10:38 pm:
Hi
I just started reading this thread - wow, is it huge - and thought I would throw in my 2 cents worth. I bought my daughter a 14 hh mare last year, awesome in all ways, but the buyer said that the guy he bought her from said that the guy HE bought her from said she may have been foundered, but he didn't know much about horses, and she had been sound. That was her history. I took a chance and the mare was great until July 3 last year. She quit moving altogether and we had to haul food and water right under her nose. She made an immediate trip to the vet where x-rays were done and he measured an 18 degree rotation. He said he'd never seen that on a live horse. The styrofoam pads were duct taped in place, she was given a nice dose of Bute and sent home for 4 more days of confinement and Bute until the pulses in her feet went down and corrective shoeing could be done. We hosed her lower legs and feet with cold water twice a day, and took the styrofoam off long enough to dry her feet before re-appling it. We were told to put new styrofoam over the old, rather than replacing it, as it would form to the soles of her feet and provide good relief. I'm not sure about the epoxy etc that was discussed earlier, as this was my first time in this situation, but my vet used a shoe set back from the toe to improve breakover (don't ask what kind of shoe, I really don't know) and it had a square toe on it, then added pads to protect the soles of her feet, which were quite tender as you can imagine, and filled it all in with regular old tube of silicone. He said it worked just as well as an "farrier" type stuff, held up better in cold weather, and was a great deal cheaper. Anyway, also in there I used Kopertox on the soles of the feet. I haven't seen it mentioned on this site yet, but if you've never heard of it, it is great for hardening soles and drying out abscesses (never use it on skin, even accidently, as it will remove hair better than Neet). During this time frame, she also had an abscess break through the hoof wall near the coronet band. Anyway, to sum it all up, the mare had 3 weeks off after that, and was shod consistently every 6-8 weeks until October, and was always sound enough to do whatever we liked. She has been barefoot all winter, and I am hoping that I am being careful enough with the spring grass to keep her sound this year, and possibly avoid the corrective shoeing. Our farrier said absolutely no alfalfa, no oats, and no green grass. The green grass thing we just kind of have to do, so I try to be careful with it and put her in my arena in "dry dock" as much as possible, but the other is easy to avoid. A winter on pasture (we're in Canada) is also great for weightloss and that has to help.
There was mention in an earlier post of sugar levels in grass, and time of day which is safest. Horse & Rider magazine has just published an article on this exact topic in the April 2006 issue, continued in the May 2006 issue. It was very informative, and I believe back issues can be ordered if anyone doesn't have a copy and would like one.
Michelle
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 10:13 am:
What Julie means by broken is not the bones or your horse, but the normal alignment is broken up in the earlier images of the 3 bones of the hoof and pastern. This is greatly corrected in the last radiograph. This last radiograph is a bit difficult to get a feel for because it appears the machine was tilted with respect to the foot or the horse was standing on an incline. I presume the horse was on a flat surface? If so the alignment of the bones in much improved but in order to achieve this you do have remarkable obliquity of the coffin bone with the ground. His heels may be a touch to high but this may be part of your vet/farriers plan as it is though such positioning decreases the forces of rotation from the coffin bone?
DrO
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 10:33 am:
Dr. O, the last x-ray was from October of 05. The first x-ray was done on Tuesday, last week. That is the x-ray that the vet/farrier is presently working off off. I was not sure if I made that clear?
Would you still advise keeping him stalled, or can he have a limited amount of grazing time with his friends yet? Also, is it ok to be off of the bute?
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 7:45 am:
No, I missed the date in the lower left corner Susan. When posting photos it always helps to put a blank line between the top and the bottom of the photo's text coding to prevent lines of text from butting up against the photo.
Reversing the order does indicate a serious rotation on the left in the last 7 months if the last radiograph above is the left also. Your post of 2 days ago says he is 95% which is not the same as being 100%. The article clearly outlines the procedures for both coming off medication and beginning exercise but these are general recommendations and your veterinarians instructions always followed. However if he is giving you different instructions, I would want to know his reasoning.
DrO
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 1, 2006 - 11:09 pm:
Hi All, for all that were so supportive during Levi's lameness issues, I thought I would update. He has been confined now for over a month, with little turnout. He has been walking sound for a few weeks, still throws his foot out when he zooms off on a pasture trot.
The farrier was out today, and moved the shoe back a bit more, and also DrOpped another degree on his heel. He walked and trotted, turned and stands firmly and seems just fine.
The weird thing about his episode was that he never acted like a founder. Today, the farrier pointed out to me that he had an exit mark on his coronary band, as if a gravel or something had worked it's way out. He also has a separation of sorts at his heel, like an injury, right at the bulb of his heel and hoof. It has been very dry, he said to oil his hooves.
His toe had been getting long for several months, and I had been noticing him off for a long time before we x-rayed and found the rotation.
Because of the sudden onset of his lameness in one foot, does anyone think that the rotation could have just been gradually coming on, and was actually secondary to his lameness. That the real issue was this gravel or something that has now worked it's way out of his coronary band????
Who knows, regardless, we are going to DrOp the weight. keep working on getting the de-rotation corrected, and my farrier said to let him out to exercise to get some blood flowing to his feet. He is moving well, and has been on dry lot/ some grazing in a small yard.
I am going to let him out in the bigger pasture with the boys tomorrow, on a limited basis, and work on that grazing muzzle. Let's keep our fingers, toes and hooves crossed.
Thanks to all who have cared.
suz
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Friday, Jun 2, 2006 - 1:50 am:
Thanks for the update, Suz
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Friday, Jun 2, 2006 - 7:04 am:
Susan, glad he's doing better. Did you read what Christos had to say under "founder relapse after 4 years"?
Might be of interest to you in that there are so many things evidently that appear to be founder.
Erika
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jun 2, 2006 - 10:22 am:
Susan, go back and read my first half dozen posts concerning the diagnostic dilemma. I have seen horses with unexplained rotation.
DrO
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Friday, Jun 2, 2006 - 11:14 am:
Dr. O, thanks for moving my post. I was not sure if I should continue on with this one, since it was sooo long.
I was totally on your side on questioning what was going on with Levi too. I tried to get that across to any professional that I talked with. Once they saw the rotation, they jumped to the "grass founder" conclusion, or unexplained laminitis.
I could not get them to look deeper into the problem, or that it was one footed, no problems with the right foot. The one vet that did the very unprofessional job on the x-ray, told me the right foot was "way worse" than the left foot.
I am only going to work on the present and work on getting his weight down, for his own good in general. And be persistent at keeping his toes short.
He is much better, and I am going to let him out into the trees and shade today. He will be a happy camper I am sure. So will his babysitting buddies.
thanks again
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Friday, Jun 2, 2006 - 3:51 pm:
Suz, I am so glad Levi is improving, less miserable, and out with his buddies more frequently. Espiritu is still on stall rest. One of our horses had a problem with a small pebble that caused temporary lameness until it exited with evidence in the coronary band. My vet caught the cause so we treated it appropriately. It was a while back. I didn't even think of that regarding Levi as there was so much conviction re founder. It's a good lesson for me to think possibilities through with more diligence in the future and offer my ideas even if they are contrary to common thought. I wish I had learned this lesson sooner, maybe I could have helped.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Friday, Jun 2, 2006 - 6:30 pm:
thanks Ilona, It is so nice to look out my window, and see a big brown butt, tail happily swishing flys in the sun. He is happy, but we will still take it slow. I am so busy at the kennel, so it is nice that he does not need constant monitoring.
How much longer will your Espiritu need to be confined???? I he doing OK? It takes so much out of you when they are not well
My good friend just ran over her Samoyed who had been laying under the horse trailer. Fortunately, it survived but has a broken jaw, which is wired shut, and will take a long mend. I think that we animal people go in spurts so we can be there to comfort and support each other when we are off the worry wagon.
Suz
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 3, 2006 - 12:09 pm:
Suz, Espiritu needs another 2 weeks and then out slowly in progressively graduated times. Then the lunge work starts. We are doing all we can to prevent laminitis. He is only 5, and to have that problem for the rest of his life would be very unfun. If it does happen anyway I want to be sure it wasn't because of anything I didn't do correctly. That would be unforgivable from my point of view as I now have access to SO much help and information on this site. Thanx for asking.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2006 - 8:47 pm:
Me Again! Levi has been doing really well, but I have a new question, I think. Today he was out in the pasture for several hours. When I called them in, I noticed he was not walking right. I picked his feet and found a HUGE knot of wood stuck up in the frog of his foot. I don't know how long it was there, as we were gone all day yesterday, and did not pick his feet for a few days.
I removed it, and he still seems a little tenderfooted. My question is . . . Could he have bruised his sole, and that is why he is walking a bit tender, and if so what should I do? I gave him a gram of bute, kept him in the rest of the day. Hoping tomorrow he is back to OK,
After I removed the log from his frog, I did let him out and he went running with the others to the lower pasture. I just am curious if there would be left over bruising from such a huge tree in his foot. It was jammed up into his frog, I could barely dig it out.
thanks
suz
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2006 - 8:21 am:
I've had similar happenings and in both cases the horses were perfectly fine in no time. I hope yours will be too. My oldest guy needs to have his feet checked more often because if anything hard gets caught in the bottom of his foot it will make him lame until removed. These horses have no history of laminitis,however, and if your horse does you need to monitor his progress more carefully.
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2006 - 7:04 pm:
Hi Suz,
I'm glad Levi is so much better. I try to check feet every day just before feeding. I do only have 2 per corral so it is easy to do this. They all know and come, patiently pop their nose into the halter, quick tie, check feet and the whole thing is over in about 4 minutes. I'm sure the treat pre-halter and post-clean have added to their willingness. We have so many rocks and pebbles here that its worth the prevention for me.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2006 - 7:29 pm:
Thanks for the come-back. I am usually so diligent, especially with Levi, at checking his feet. We were off and running for 2 days here, and of course, leave it to Levitobeaver, to get into something. This knot of wood was huge, and smashed into his frog, point first. He is walking better tonight, still a bit gingerly though. At least it is more a flat footed walk, than the heel toe thing he was doing yesterday. I have been oiling their hooves also, it is soo dry here.
I want to do another set of x-rays before the farrier comes next time. If I can find a capable technician.
Ilona, is Espiritu out and about yet?
suz
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2006 - 9:03 pm:
Hi Suz,
Yes Espirtu is out, for the first time yesterday. His corral companion (half brother) was so clearly happy to have him back its hard to tell who was more thrilled, Espiritu or Hijo. Now the vigilance begins. Welcome to the world of the horses foot! Thanx for asking. Wouldn't you know, that the times we aren't available is when they get themselves into trouble. We have to allow ourselves our humanity, we can only do our best within that.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 18, 2006 - 10:28 am:
DR. O - or anyone. Levi is verrrry lame today. this has been weird. Friday nite he seemed a little sore, Sat. AM he was limping, when I picked up his foot he almost fell over. I gave him some bute. The Farrier was in the area and stopped by around 6pm. He was walking totally normal. He did not have a hoof tester, but pinched his foot, poked squeezed it nothing. He walked off just normal.
Let him out in the dry yard for about an hour walked around normal.
This morning, severely lame. barely walking. Picked up his right foot. He would not let me pick up his left foot, tightened up his leg stiff as a board.
I called the vet here in town to come out yesterday to do x-rays, They did not want to come out because if they messed up like last time, they would have to make another trip out. I could not get away, business open, plus they are on a main highway, by a shopping mall, very poor conditions for my hyper levi.
What should I be looking for with this on again off again lameness. Would an abscess be brewing from that thing that was stuck in his foot last week? If he had more rotation going on, would he be on and then off of his lameness?
He has been out grazing for 2 hours am 2 hours afternoon for several weeks now, nothing new in feed regime.
Of course my relatives from Pennsylvania arrived last night for a week visit, that I have begged them to try Iowa for vacation destination, now this again.
Any thing I should be looking for
suz
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 7:51 am:
There's something very strange here, Susan, or something I do not understand at all.
Are radiographs in post #320 and #323 of the same hoof, one month apart?
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 8:06 am:
Got it, Susan, ignore the previous post.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 8:27 am:
Hi Christos, I have not yet gone out to the barn to see how he is today. But had a rather sleepless night. I am sure that the right foot is the problem now. I am going to try to get a vet out to x-ray, or run him up 2 hours away, if I can find someone to cover the business today.
I have never dealt with an abscess, so I don't know what to look for. His pain level was the most intense that I have seen yesterday.
He weighs around 1100 lbs, what is the most bute I can give him? He had 3 grams yesterday.
1 at 9, 1 at 12:30 and 1 around 7:30pm
they should also give pain and anxiety medicine for the owners as well.
thanks
suz
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 9:17 am:
Susan, we give bute to take the edge off pain, to relieve it somehow, not completely.
I wouldn't give him 3 grams if he still steps on that leg. 2 grams is plenty. Let him limp around, it looks pretty ugly but still preferable to his stomach or kidneys being blown to pieces.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 9:31 am:
Hi susan I don't know if this is correct, but for an abscess I have been told bute reduces the inflammation and may keep the abscess brewing, so if it is an abscess movement with minimal bute seems to be the protocol around here, and of course soaking. Then wrap with some drawing salve, I use icthamol and sometimes sugardine, both seem to work.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 9:49 am:
Suzan, how often do you soak/oil/treat his hooves with softening products ?
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 2:14 pm:
Hi all, I soaked his feet once years ago when one of the gazillion vets thought he had an abscess instead of the rotation thing.
I only recently put an oil treatment on his hooves because it has been dry, just twice in the last week.
My farrier seems to think it is acting like a bruise or abscess or something, but can not come back till the end of the week. I can not find a vet to come x-ray him on the farm.
The bad news is, my new employee (2 weeks worth), came 10 minutes late to work, so when I told her I needed her to be on time, she decided to pull out the driveway, without a word said, no note, nothing. I guess I am to assume that means she QUIT!She had already called off sick 1 day, and switched with someone another. In only 2 weeks time! So I really am stuck here.
This is one of those days, I would sell the business, the animals and the whole joint for a $1.00 and run away from home.
Should I be oiling more often?
I think I am being black balled by the local vet here since I sent the x-rays off to the lameness specialty guy. They don't want to drive out here, 15 minutes away from the clinic.
BREATHE DEEP! Any help from my internet friends would be greatly appreciated.
suz
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Member:
Banthony
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Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 2:58 pm:
Susan,
My foundered horse did the same thing a few times. He would be sore, then act totally normal - even running around playing. Then severely lame. He was always brewing an abscess. I used a soaking boot on him and that worked the fastest.
He was so lame with one abscess in a back foot we all thought he had broken his leg. I've never seen a horse so sore behind.
Hang in there! Your horses are so very lucky to have you!
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 3:03 pm:
Well then Susan I think I would try the good ole home remedies for an abscess works for bruises also. The vet really can't do anything rather than pare it out and I believe you said the farrier didn't see anything so try soaking 2x's a day in warm epson salt, apply ickymol or sugardine wrap in diaper and duct tape and see if that helps. That helped Hanks pop, tho he wasn't much for soaking, he was able to walk better with the diaper and duct tape applied. Dr.O. has a good article in here as to how to go about it. Good Luck!
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 5:05 pm:
Suzan, I do not understand softening or preventing dehydration of hooves.
I use oils, fats etc to waterproof the horse's hooves in winter, in the days that I wear rubber boots myself.
In summer I find rubber boots very uncomfortable. One may say that they'd protect my feet from drying up in the heat and the skin from cracking and they really do that. But my foot needs to dry out in warm, dry weather, otherwise it will simply cook!
Believing that a film of fats and oils has the same temperature holding properties in the equine hoof by trapping humidity and then boiling it, I refrain from using it in the summer.
To put things in perspective, temperatures around here in the summer are from 95 to 110 F and the roads we ride are packed with stone. I think I'd know if drying up was a problem for hooves.
Of course, farriers hate my horse's hooves. I find it amusing when their knife skids across the sole without cutting it or when nails need hand sharpening to go through the wall. The farrier doesn't usually share this sense of humour.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 5:43 pm:
Susan, maybe try Keratex after you get this one sorted out. Keratex let's the hoof breathe whether in dry or wet conditions.
https://www.keratex.com/
Hang in there!!!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 6:50 pm:
Susan, rapid onset of lameness that worsens over a few days is frequently a foot abscess. For a description of differentiating bruises and abscesses, diagnosis, and treatment see, Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Hoof Abscesses, Bruises, and Gravels. Verrry lame suggests abscess to me.
DrO
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 7:43 pm:
How exactly was that piece of wood stuck in his hoof, Suzan? Did it penetrate the sole or frog? How far? Did it draw blood when removed? Are you sure you removed all of it?
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 20, 2006 - 12:02 am:
You all are such a comfort, thanks for being there! Christos, the wood was a knot from a tree branch, shaped like an "L" with the whole thing shoved into his frog. My biggest problem is I am not sure which foot it was stuck in. My husband swears it was his bad foot, the left. But he wont put weight on the right foot. I can pick it up and pick it out, but if I try to pick up the left foot, he leans on me, and will not shift his weight. I have only been able to pick up the left and clean it out once.
I can not see anything, blood, black spot nothing. There was no blood when I yanked out the wood a week ago.
I have learned that soaking feet can be dangerous to ones own health. Levi's reaction to the warm epsom salt soak, was a quick jab to my right eye with his knee. YIKES, a little black and blue, but I will learn.
I ordered a soaking boot, should be here tomorrow. Hope that will make life easier. I feel so bad for him, they look so sad!
Dr. O, will re-read the abscess article.
Have been preoccupied with out of town visitors, which has helped the braincells!
Will keep you posted, thanks for the good wishes and pony prayers.
Suz
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 20, 2006 - 12:22 am:
Suz,
So sorry for what you're going through as well as your horse. --And a black eye yet! Will say a special prayer tonight for both of you.
Shirl
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 20, 2006 - 7:29 am:
Hi Susan, WARNING on the soaking boot, when I put Hanks foot in it he was fine, but when he moved his foot and it sloshed he freaked out, broke his rope and ran down the rode sideways trying to get away from it. My other horses are fine with it, just thought I would give you a heads up, in case Levi is emotional like Hank.
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Member:
Banthony
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 20, 2006 - 8:39 am:
Susan,
I second Diane's thoughts. My thoroughbred is not crazy about that kind of therapy - things on his feet that slosh. I broke him in to it when he was in his stall and couldn't go anywhere.
Now I still use the boot when it is unrelentingly dry here and his feet need moisture and he doesn't bat an eye.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 20, 2006 - 10:20 pm:
Well, finally, I called my vet friend, whose husband is the large animal vet. I kinda voiced my concerns. this morning he pulled in the driveway, and apologized for the misunderstanding, He then did the hoof tester on Levi's foot. The right foot, inside by the heel is where he went through the roof. He pared it out a bit but was reluctant to work too much on him because of his thin sole. The farrier is coming on Thursday or Friday and will remove his shoes. As I recall now, it seems like when he re-set his shoe this last time he said an oops when he was working on that foot, like he put the nail in the wrong place. I remember asking him if he will be OK at the time, but sorta forgot about it.
That was 2 weeks before though.
I feel better, though as Mark said he did not think it could be rotation because of the severe reaction to one spot only, on his heel, not anywhere near the toe area. Hope he is right.
I got the soaking boot tonight, will try it tomorrow. He actually is walking much better, since the little bit of paring he did, He actually walked out of his stall, not one stepping it.
Must be all those pony prayers you all are sending.
Will work on the soaking tomorrow.
thanks
suz
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 20, 2006 - 11:00 pm:
Also, what is the story on the bute. I gave him 1 gm. in the am none tonight. Waiting to hear from Dr. O, on whats the scoop on the bute?
thanks
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 21, 2006 - 9:14 am:
Hello Susan,
It is not prayers Susan but an accurate diagnosis and proper treatment that make the difference in the pony's lameness, the prayers are mainly for us and you.
For information on the dosage of bute and a careful explanation of the effects and side effects see, Treatments and Medications for Horses » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » Phenylbutazone (Bute).
DrO
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 21, 2006 - 5:18 pm:
Hi Suz,
Just wanted you to know I'm thinking of you. Levi has been a great teacher in patience and detail, to say nothing about the study of the hoof.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 21, 2006 - 5:56 pm:
Hey Ilona, I have been worried about you, had not heard from you and wondering how you are doing with the Fire encroaching on Sedona? Hope you are OK.
suz
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 21, 2006 - 6:00 pm:
There is still not any drainage area on his foot. I tried the soaking boot, and was happy to have the warnings. I filled the boot first, set his foot in it, and did not velcro it on. He is so use to wearing his Big Macs, that he never even moved. I filled a hay net and he munched away being tied. The farrier should be here Thursday or Friday, I hope. He is still lame but not as severely.
Suz
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 12:03 am:
Suz, I'm so sorry Levi is having more problems after all the two of you have been through. Ilona is right about your experience being a teaching one for the rest of us.
I am somewhat confused about Christo's comments about softening the hoof. I thought putting not petroleum products, but things like lanolin or Hoof Maker on the frog, heel and coronet band was good for the hoof - especially in the very dry summers we have here.
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 7:47 am:
Hi Suz,
The fires have been of concern as they can spread quickly. So far they are on the other side of town, however the national forest on our property boundary has been closed. I'm originally from california and I am all too aware of how quickly direction can change. The thought of moving the 10 horses, 17 dogs, 7 cats and 9 birds is horrifying. Where would I even take them all.....to the high school evacuation center? That would cause a stir!
Take care of yourself and Levi.
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Member:
Banthony
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 10:06 am:
Susan,
It took 2-3 days of soaking sessions for the abscess to pop on my horse and then it popped out the coronet bank not the sole.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 11:21 am:
Linda, thanks for the info. That soaking boot has worked wonders. I don't understand, why he won't stand in a bucket, but is perfectly content in this boot. It is more like a cordora bag, than a tight fitting boot. It has a firm rubber mat on the bottom too. So far I have seen nothing pop. He is still lame, but not as severe. Farrier comes tomorrow afternoon.
suz
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Friday, Jun 23, 2006 - 7:20 pm:
Dr. O, If you can confirm that this is the right advice, I would appreciate it. As you know I have a confidence problem with the vet staff here. The other vet wanted the farrier to search for the abscess.
I have been soaking 2 x a day with just epsom salts. Levi has improved to almost sound. Of course, because the farrier is coming.
He removed his shoe, squeezed with the hoof tester, not too remarkable of a response. Very slight head raising at the area identified by the vet. He dug around the area about 1/2 inch, nothing popped. He then took a pointed thing, and poked inside the hole backwards towards his heel, almost parallel with the bottom of the foot, and Levi flinched in pain.
He called 2 different vets, they advised that we leave the shoe off, soak with betadine & epsom salts 2 x day. Pack with betadine soaked cotton and wrap his foot. If he is still lame on Monday, they said they will have to dig deeper till blood if necessary. OH NO! this of course is his good foot, if there is such a thing.
Is it odd for the lameness to come and go like that with an abscess. One vet suggested it could be a "crack" that was getting pressure from the shoe or nail? He has been in shoes forever, at least 2 years without a break.
Any comments?
Thanks
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 8:08 pm:
If the source of the lameness is a poorly draining abscess or wound of the sole, yes this would be correct advice.
DrO
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 10:36 pm:
The farrier is returning on Monday and then will not be back for three weeks. He is walking 98% better than the previous week with the soaking. Should he put his shoe back on before he leaves, or would he be ok in a boot for 3 weeks until his next visit.
I am hoping to have the vet out to do x-rays on Monday, to see if they see anything, as per farriers request. The only vet available is the one who did the x-rays that missed the bottom of the foot. I am not even sure he will come out yet. Also to check on the rotation of the left foot.
I just did not know if it was ok to have one shoe on one shoe off? Or should he put shoes on if he is no longer lame?
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 9:17 am:
If you can continue to treat the area, I see no reason not to have the shoes put on. But he will be fine with one shoe on and one off or if the shoe is to be left off why not just pull the opposite one?
DrO
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 9:45 am:
The left foot had the rotation. The shoe, I believe is helping to correct the rotation and breakover??
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 4:21 am:
Sara, I am trying to avoid all external conditioning of a horse's hoof except waterproofing them when conditions are too wet.
I will only soak them in the summer for an hour or two before trimming or shoeing, to make my life a bit easier.
I do not believe in hooves drying up too much and breaking. They simply don't.
We do ride in temperatures above 100 F and never had a hoof crack on me or become painful for any reason.
I am afraid that dressing a hoof with oily products in these temperatures may prevent it from breathing and overheat it, kind of cook it in it's own juices.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 9:58 pm:
GEEEZ, Life is interesting. The vet came today as well as the farrier, neither could find an abscess. They said to keep soaking, and leave the foot unwrapped, let him run around on it as long as he had a boot on, and see what happened. He is still not 100 % sound, but both thought that moving around would be better than stall rest.
They did the x-ray, but could not see an abscess. The rotation is gradually improved, he trimmed him 3 weeks ago, but said he had not grown much, so did not do a trim this time. It will be 3 weeks till his next visit, I hope that won't be too long in between. I hate having a farrier a state away. But there is no other in the area now.
The fun part was, when the vet was here I had all the horses in the barn. Clyde and Cody were in the back part of the barn with the stall all open. Apparently, Cody got blocked in his stall by Clyde bothering him. He kicked at him, and got his foot stuck in the wall! Lucky for him and me, he did not struggle at all. It was way up in the air. I had to pull chunks of wood off the wall ( the stall walls are 3/4 strand board, double thick) The vet came over and we got his foot down. No Blood, limped a little, but it is not swollen. The vet said it was not in the wall for very long, so he should be ok.
Do you think the universe is trying to tell me something 
I will try to post the new x-rays and get any opinions.
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 9:09 am:
When it rains it pours Susan or things happen in 3's it seems.
DrO
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 11:52 am:
6/26/06 Right Foot (left not showing up)
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 6:10 am:
There is not much on the radiograph that helps with the recent acute lameness Susan. I do think it shows quite a bit of wall in front of the toe. Perhaps rolling the toe or a rocker would help with breakover but this is not the problem he is having now.
How is he doing?
DrO
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 12:46 pm:
Dr. O, Thanks for asking. He really is no longer in that horrible lame stage. He does take off running with the others, but he is not bolting around, just mozying like the other 3. He always walks funny with the boots on, but he is placing pressure evenly on both front feet. I asked the vet his opinion on the x-rays, he said he has not had time to look at them. My farrier did not come back, and won't be here till July 14th. It seems to me, by my uneducated look, that he still has too long of a toe. Do you think the farrier needs to shorten his toe, as well as roll the shoe? I know he does not use the Rocker shoes, he does not like them, and is not equipped out of his truck to work on them. I am sure he can roll the toe with his anvil.
I am always such a panic monger - I am hopeful that waiting will not cause problems. The farrier did not see much growth since the last trim on June 2nd, I guess he would know! Would you advise that he takes off more toe, and lower the heel? He is in a raised aluminum shoe.
thanks
suz
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 4:44 pm:
I posted this elsewhere, but I am so please with myself for finally figuring out shrinking. I thought I would do it again.
Levi looks a little thinner, I think it is camera angle. But I believe all this fussing has finally driven Levi to drink!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 6:26 pm:
I really cannot judge balance from these radiographs but I am suggesting rolling or squaring the toe off some.
DrO
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Member:
Banthony
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 11:43 am:
Susan,
You gotta love a horse with personality!
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 8:22 pm:
Dr. O, the law of threes is so true. I have just realized that all of the horses that many of our friends on HA have lost, all become guardian angels to those left here on earth.
Today, #3, A gate was left open, after loading hay. 4 horses coming in for dinner, noticed with delight, and stormed through the gate. They ran all over the property, me in pursuit, and then the unthinkable . . . out the driveway onto the highway. I ran for the halters, jumped in the car, and low and behold, back from the highway, into the drive way they came. Made a run around the 13 acres, landed at the barn, and politely filed back into the training yard through the gate.
Levi was pounding the pavement with the other 3, so far no limping, we shall see what tomorrow brings.
I am sure there are guardian angels watching over me, and now I know there are equine angels too!
Sign me up for basket weaving classes at the institution, I think I am ready.
suz
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 22, 2006 - 5:48 pm:
A New Update on Levi! We finally, July 22 went for a ride!!! Yeah! First, I am proud of me for finally being brave enough to take him off the farm and ride, and second, I am proud of him for being such a good boy. We rode with Clyde, his barn buddy, and a friends young horse. First in the arena, then on a short level prairee.
He had his shoes put back on with the raised heel, and his toe cut back and rolled, as Dr. O suggested, and so far he has been doing great.
Keeping my fingers crossed that he will remain sound for the rest of, well actually for the rest of life, would be excellent.
I am just a very happy camper. If we keep this up, he just might make it to Brushy next year.
suz}
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 22, 2006 - 8:19 pm:
Susan, that is such wonderful news!! Congratulations to you on your bravery
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Member:
Frances
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 23, 2006 - 5:52 am:
Yay, Susan, what a good feeling it must be!
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 23, 2006 - 10:23 am:
Finally, I get to ride, and what happens . . . Last night his shoe was hanging by 3 nails. I have it duct taped to his foot,hoping the farrier is still in town. I think he does this to me on purpose, so he does not have to work.
Of course, it is the bad foot, that must have the elevated heel.
suz
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 23, 2006 - 7:14 pm:
I'm sorry Susan, I feel your pain, been there done that more than once... Hang in there!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 23, 2006 - 7:26 pm:
Bummer, maybe we should make it the law of 4's. Let us know how it works out.
DrO
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 23, 2006 - 7:54 pm:
I hunted down this poor farrier "like a wounded animal". He is normally in town every 3 weeks, but was overbooked last weekend and was in town this weekend. He said he thinks Levi smells him in town, and just does stuff like this so he can see him. He used a heavier nail he said. I will keep putting his overshoot boots on, and cross fingers and toes
suz
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Monday, Jul 31, 2006 - 11:28 pm:
Dr. O, Can the heat cause laminitis? Levi is walking sore again. I don't know what I can do differently, except make him live in a stall for the rest of his life. He has been out on a barely growing pasture, 1/2 servings of oats/safechoice about 6 oz. Grass hay. He has been on the lower field, which is mostly blue grass, because all we have left here with the DrOught, is weedy pastures. I limit there time there to protect the pasture, but it is mostly brown/green. I can't imagine this would be dangerous. He looked a little limpy last night, a little limpy this am. Then he came running to dinner tonight, and I noticed a definate lameness. Could not tell for sure which foot. Hooves are not hot, pulse seems normal (normal for him is always a bit elevated). I gave him a gm of bute, put him in his stall and gave him some hay. My dream is that they have been stomping flys so hard, that is all that is wrong. Wishful thinking.
The farrier will be in town this weekend, although he is not scheduled, as he just had his trimming and new shoes put on MOnday 17th of July.
Should I watch him, or try to get our vets to come out and do an x-ray. The next time the farrier will be in town is Aug. 18th.
thanks
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 6:25 am:
I believe heat stress can result in founder, most likely secondary to bowel dysfunction from persistently high body temperatures, in older or chronically ill animals but if your history is one of recurring founder when turned on pasture you should look for either Metabolic SynDrOme or possibly bruising when turned out.
It depends on how much you know Susan. If you are uncertain as to the cause of the lameness or what the proper treatment is you should have the vet out. If you know what is wrong and how to treat it properly you can treat this yourself.
DrO
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 22, 2006 - 6:50 pm:
Dr.O
Levi has been back to all his silly tricks. He is doing farely well. I am trying a new vet, 1 1/2 hours away. He said that we need to keep his toe wayyyy back. Then he chopped the toe off, because he thought he saw an abscess on the x-ray. I will try to post the new x-ray for your opinions. He has two huge air spaces inbetween the hoof and the hoof wall. He dug around and said nothing popped, but thought it was from the "old founder" growing out.
After he lectured me about sticking with 1 vet, which I told him I would be happy to, should I find one that was going to help keep my horse sound. I also was coming back to him for the 2nd time, so I am not sure why he lectured me. Maybe, he was having a bad day.
Anyhow, I sure hope he knows what he is doing, because he chopped his toe off. He then was gimpy for a day after the farrier shoed him. That shoe fell off after a day. He then glued it on a bit farther back to get the breakover just under the coffin bone, per instructions from the vet. He is now walking sound again. We are glued on and have held for 4 days now.
I will try to get the x-ray and foot picture to work. I can only hope that we are on the right track. Hope you can tell me something from the pics.
suz
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 22, 2006 - 7:27 pm:
I am not sure if you can see this or not
actual hoof before glueing shoe on and sliding back shoe a bit more
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 22, 2006 - 7:32 pm:
trying again left foot after he chopped off toe
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 23, 2006 - 7:24 am:
The angle that the image of the hoof was taken at fore-shortens it so much I cannot really judge much from it nor does the radiograph help since I cannot see the nature of the hoof that was removed. However I see the lines drawn in a plan to derotate the coffin bone and look much like how I would approach this problem.
DrO
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 23, 2006 - 7:59 am:
Susan, is that Levi with his front legs on the rock? What a clown! What is he trying to get a better view of? Looks like he's too curious for his own good! Cute picture! I hope you have better luck with the new vet.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 23, 2006 - 10:51 am:
Dr. O, I can't seem to get a picture of the x-ray that shows the front of the foot. If I get to town, I will borrow my friends light box and see if I can get a better shot to post. So far he is trotting around sound as can be. We are going back down there around Sept 8th to x-ray and meet the farrier at the vet. I hope this is the guy that will get and keep Levi on track. He seems to think that it is more a mechanical thing, as opposed to the equine metabolic/insulin thing at this point. The testing is extensive and expensive, so holding off for now.
Fran, that is Levi's trick. I taught him to step up on a box, only about a foot high. One day I was sitting on the rock, and up comes Levi, between my legs no less. Scared the #@%# out of me. So now on command, he becomes Rin Tin Levi! I think if I let him, he would be a circus elephant and load up onto the rock with all 4s, but we have enough vet bills, so that is not acceptable. He is a born performer!
suz
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 7, 2006 - 4:09 pm:
Dr. O, just another update on Levi. We had a great vet visit today. We x-ray both feet, and he has grown lots of sole, he feels his rotation is coming around in that left foot really well.
I am going to try to upload the new x-rays. We put him in a natural balance shoe, no more 3 degree raised heel. I hope these shoes will stay on his feet a little better.
Right Foot
Left foot
any better on left
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Sep 8, 2006 - 6:12 am:
Continue to work aggressively on the flare and long toe that these radiographs suggest. How does the foot balance especially pastern alignment look?
DrO
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Friday, Sep 8, 2006 - 11:55 am:
Dr. O, Yikes I am not very savy on this stuff, I do not quite understand what you mean. When he walks he is landing flat on his front feet. He still kicks out his left front foot when he goes into a trot, then he seems, to my untrained eye to trot in a normal gait, for him. Should I take a picture of him standing from the side, to show you? See I told you I am not very savy.
The vet has said that he wants the farrier to come every 3 weeks and move that toe back just a smidge every time. This natural balance shoe has a built in breakover. It goes back to the front of the frog at the toe, a really wide toe area on the shoe. Hope it is a good choice for his problem. He does have a bit of a rock on his landing, but that is what the vet said he wants him to do.
I keep hoping I finally found someone that will get my boy on the right track.
Because this laminitis occured both times because of trimming incorrectly or lack of, this last time, in May, he had almost 3 inches of extra toe. In your opinion, after time, will the lamini(sp) be repaired enough so that he will be sound indefinately, as long as we keep on top of his toes? Or after rotation, does the lamini(sp)stay forever weak? So far, everyone that I have consulted seems to feel that this was a conformation issue, that was not properly addressed, and the severe trimming done on him that first time is what caused the laminitis, not an insulin, thyroid problem, etc. I just want him to live forever, and be problem free! HAHAHAHAHA like that is possible with any critter!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Sep 8, 2006 - 7:02 pm:
I see nothing on the radiographs to suggest the horse should not become sound Susan but following a bout of founder the horse will always be a bit more likely for recurrence. Check out Care for Horses » Hoof Care » Trimming and Preparing the Feet for Shoes. It will explain balance and proper trimming.
DrO
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 18, 2006 - 12:18 am:
Dr. O, Hate to bother you again with this fellow of mine, but I hope you can add your opinion. I finally found a vet about 1 hour away, who has been aggressively helping with Levi. He really thinks that his long toes have been the major problem with Levi.
We had an appointment in Sept with the vet and farrier. The farrier put Levi in a "natural balance" shoe. It does not have a raised heel, but does have a built in breakover, very wide toe. The 3 degree raised heel shoes constantly fell off. Anyhow, he said he could keep his heel higher and not take much off, since he had the 3 degrees there at his heel. He has been very sound, rode him with no problems.
He recently lost his shoe, and went a week without it, by the end of the week, he was a bit gimpy.
I had him x-rayed on Monday, by a local vet and shipped the x-rays to this new vets practice. He agreed to review them, overnight them to me with his suggestions. To make a long story short. Apparently, he forgot that he was going hunting this week. They sat on his desk all week. I called the day the farrier was set to come. His partner, reviewed the x-rays, said take off his heel, cut back his toe, and get him in a rocker shoe!!!!
He has been doing ok in this natural balance shoe, although he does have a bit of a rock with his step, because of the built in break over i would think???
It is so frustrating, and all the local vets get mad at me for "vet shopping", but here in the same practice I have 2 opinions. I am only trying to avoid damage. The x-ray to my naked eye, seemed to have a little improvement on the rotation from the last one, and plenty of sole, he said.
He did fine in the raised heel shoe, but they fell off all the time, this shoe has actually stayed on better, till he raced around a long grass field.
Which is better the flatter shoe with the breakover set right, or cut off his heel and put a degreed heel on him?
He was not balanced with this last trim/reset. He only did his left foot. The farrier came back and did his right foot today, so hopefully tomorrow he will be normal again.
Sorry for jabbering.
thanks
suz
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 18, 2006 - 2:52 am:
Susan: I don't understand why the shoes come off. And I don't think rolling and rockering ever hurts on front feet....but I don't know if you are able to get someone to do it right. I'm so sorry for all the trouble you are having. Things are always so "iffy" with Levi, that I don't think it matters as much which method is chosen, but that it is done properly and that the shoe stays on.
I have a QH mare that has been corrective shod for her navicular since 1986. Her hoof quality is certainly not the greatest, and leans toward shelly. Her shoeings have been 5 to 6 weeks apart, because, longer than that, she becomes uncomfortable. She's hot shod rolled and rockered, right now and has worn degree pads forever. Long ago, she wore full pads with packing. Sometimes, shoes with heels, and, sometimes, she didn't grow enough foot to get the nail holes far enough apart, and her feet would break up...but she always held her shoes. The few ( very few )times she lost a shoe, the farriers understood the importance and arrived within a few days and put the shoe back on. Around 1987, she took the LF heel bulb off right through the coronary band and hoof. The vet had to amputate the section and we had a rough year. The hoof grew back with a marked defect, but her farriers always managed to work with this. Right now she wears a rim/degree pad and slogs through wet mud, and dry sand. The farrier also fills the center of the rim pad with Equithane ( I think that is the name ), a sneaker-like silicon gel.
Ah, Susan, my point is, you've got good reason to be upset. I was a dental hygienist for 35 years, and if fillings are done right, THEY DON'T FALL OUT. The same should apply to horseshoes, whether running through long grass, short grass, or quicksand!! I'm to the point where I'm upset for you - both because of your vets and your farrier. I just wish I could do something to help.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 18, 2006 - 6:43 pm:
Thanks for responding Lee, I don't get it either. He shoes my other 3 horses, and their shoes stay on till he prys them off. They are steel shoes though. The aluminum shoes are unable to bend at the back of the heel, and he overreaches and yanks them off. I have him in his overreach boots again.
The one farrier I used that was 2 hours away, had a way of heating and bending the aluminum, but it was $192 bucks each visit, plus vet and x-rays. I could not afford his services, and The shoes fell off even when he applied them.
I am looking for supplements again to add to his feed, to try to firm up his feet.
I wish we had knowledgeable horse people around here, that could even look at Levi, and tell me if he is off in his foot, or shoulder? Cody kicked him while we were waiting for the farrier on Thursday, but I am not sure where it landed? It could be that is why he is a bit off, and has nothing to do with his feet, I am at such a loss.
The farrier is here till Monday, and then won't be back for 3 weeks. I have a set of raised heel aluminum shoes, I just wonder if we should put him back in them. He seems reluctant to do so, but I don't know why?
AAAAAAGGGGHHHH!
And then my rooster died today. Bummer!
see ya
suz
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 19, 2006 - 2:25 am:
Ooooh nooooo.....the rooster was the last straw!!!
(I have a pet hen - Henny Penny ). Back in the eighties, there was a product called Epicoat, that put out a coat restorative, hoofcare, and hoof maintenance product that worked so well it was frightening. It was very expensive - $30.00 for a few ounces, but it was applied sparingly to the coronary band. The main ingredient in it was Actein
( Complex activated proteins - whatever that means)in a glycerin, Zinc Phenylsulfonate base. It was applied once a day, and after about two months, my mare started to grow the most gorgeous hoof I've ever seen. It was the most solid, glossy, smooth hoof in the world. It really weirded my farrier out. He went on to recommend it to his other clients with horses with problem feet. Then, after about 5 or 6 years, it disappeared. Through the internet ( when I got my first computer in the late eighties )I looked it up and found out that it had been bought out by another company. I immediately bought their product - it was much cheaper - like $8.00. It didn't work. It was one of the first crossover products that was advertised for humans and horses. Something like "Mane and Tail", but I'm not sure. The original Epi products were put out by a company named Dermagen, in NJ. They smelled like the old fashioned home permanents. I always thought that with a smell like that, they might have been designed to penetrate the cuticle. Anyway, through most of the nineties, I tried and tried to trace the original product. The "new company" assured me it was the same product, but it smelled like apples, not home permanents, and it produced no results. Maybe someone will read this and be able to offer some information. Hope springs eternal.......(sigh)
So, anyway, Sue, I use the supplement, Farrier's Formula, on my mare now, and my other two. I've tried many other supplements, but this is the one that gave me the best results. They seem to grow a good quality hoof on this, but, nowhere near the outrageous quality when we had the Epi products.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 19, 2006 - 8:13 am:
Hello Susan,
Concerning your question, "which is better the flatter shoe with the breakover set right or cut off his heel and put a degreed heel on him?". It is the one which returns his foot and coffin bone to the best AP alignment, which is explained at Horse Care » Hoof Care, Trimming, & Shoeing » Care of the Hoof: an Overview. It is hard to figure why you would unbalance a foot with the trim then rebalance it with a wedge. The only justification for this is to derotate the coffin bone and the heel is cut differently in this case as described in the article on derotation.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 19, 2006 - 9:10 am:
Hi Susan I used this product on Hank, and boy did his feet grow. Good Luck with Levi!
ttp://www.horsetech.com/bioflax_ultra.htm#Secure%20Online%20Ordering!
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 19, 2006 - 2:48 pm:
Hi Diane, I checked it out and will probably order some. There are so many products on the market, it is best to get an endorsement from a user! Did you trouble with brittle hoof walls with Hank? Levi has always had brittle walls, that crack every time he is without shoes. I also don't understand why he has air pockets within the walls? Unless this is where he had rotated and pulled away from the hoof wall in his previous incident in May? Who knows. I think I will soak his feet for a few days, just to rule out bruising.
He is gimpy but not painful head bobbing walk, so I just don't know?
thanks
suz
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 19, 2006 - 3:39 pm:
Hi Susan, Hank had every problem you can imagine with his feet! He also had The "air pockets" his were caused by seedy toe. That was the reason I started him on that supp. was to get the hooves growing and strong. The supp worked very well, the farrier remained the problem! I finally got a new one after my vets prodding for a year, and I sure wish I would have done it sooner. The new farrier almost has the seedy toe gone in 2 trimmings and Hank is barefoot and doing very well! The old farrier said he could never be barefoot again. It takes the hoof around 8 mos. to regrow, but I could tell when I had started the supp on his new hoof growth and he grew a new hoof in about 6 mos. and it usually takes him 9 mos., so it sped up the growth also. Good Luck Susan I hope you get this resolved!
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Monday, Nov 20, 2006 - 11:29 am:
Hi Diane, I just ordered the ultra product today. I hope we can get on a product and stay with it. I looked up the web sight and the product comes from a company that is probably 45 minutes away from me. HOw is that for a small world?
Levi is still off today. Put a call in to the original vet who was on vacation to get his input, he is not in yet! Hope he can at least give me an opinion before the farrier heads back today.
I am wondering if, because they have taken him out of the "cut back the heel, add the wedge" if he is not continuing to de-rotate that coffin bone. It looked like it had not changed since the last x-ray in sept. But that is to my untrained eye.
wish us luck
suz
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Monday, Nov 20, 2006 - 5:14 pm:
Susan if you ever figure out the de-rotation stuff let me know. I haven't had Hank re-x-rayed yet as I am waiting for his white line to (hopefully) become normal. I think 2 more trimmings will do it, and that should mean the rotation is gone, I think.
My old farrier never rasped on the toe or rolled it, he also wouldn't remove any flare and Hanks whiteline just kept stretching and filling with seedy toe. How does Levi's whiteline look?, is it stretched? I always hang over the farriers shoulder to see Hanks when it is freshly trimmed.
Good Luck and enjoy the cookies that come with the supp!
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Monday, Nov 20, 2006 - 11:30 pm:
Well the vet finally called back. He said he had grown quite a bit of heel, and would like to have seen him cut off about an inch, also about an inch from his toe. That would have been in 3 weeks, or perhaps he had not been cutting off enough over the 10 weeks since we had been to the vet.
His white line seems normal. I walked him about this evening, and he is just a little off. Not really limping at all. The vet thought that it was perhaps just from the trimming, and he needed to stretch it out> Whatever, but to wait till the next trim in 3 weeks and take off a bit more heel and toe and to keep working at it, as he thought the radiographs were definately heading in the right direction.
Of course so then I thought I could sleep OK tonight, but I did not latch Levi's gate well, and he pushed his door open tonight. Got into all the hay, strewn all over the barn, chowing down on alfalfa mostly, discovered his treat bucket, made a mess of that. The grain is put in a locked room, so no worries there. When I walked in the barn he slowly backed up through the gate, like maybe she won't notice the mess I made. I checked on him tonight and he seems just fine, just a little full.
Anyone want a problem pony???????
There are days I would sell the little bugger for a buck!
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 - 8:41 pm:
Hi Dr. O, and anyone? Levi has stayed off for the 3 weeks between Farriers visit. He came on Friday, I was not home. He indicated to my husband that he thought he was doing ok. Well, I thought he was still off. He was running, and playing, but definately off. I called the farrier on Sunday, and told him I was going to make an appointment to drive down 1 1/2 hours to the vet to re-xray, either meet up with him or some other farrier to get him going right. It is so frustrating. I think his angle is so off, but I don't honestly know enough. I thought I would post a few pictures of his left foot. Maybe someone can give me the right questions to ask the vet on Friday.
Thanks for any suggestions. He is definately sore today. I soaked his foot, seemed to feel a bit better. Gave him some bute tonight, and kept him in the short pasture today.
I hope these work.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 - 8:46 pm:
front left
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 - 8:59 pm:
How is this angle?
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 - 9:12 pm:
close up
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 - 9:16 pm:
He has a big chunk of hoof missing right in the front.
I will try to get a copy of the x-ray on friday to post. I wish this would resolve itself, but obviously I keep trying.
Any thoughts, opinions. The vet told him to take off an inch of heel last time, he said he took some off but I have no idea how much.
thanks
suz
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 - 9:20 pm:
Hi Susan, you poor thing I know the frustration!
The angle of your photos make it hard to tell, but his heel does look quite high. The pic of the front of his hoof looks like an hour glass, narrow on the top and wide on the bottom. I guess that's considered a flare?
I don't know enough to make suggestions, other than is it possible he has a close nail? That happened to Hank once, and it didn't make him dead lame, but as time went on he got worse.
The way to check for that is to tap on the nails with a hammer and see if you get a reaction. It's best to do with no bute in them.
I hope Dr.O. can help you.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 - 9:25 pm:
Susan I must have been posting when you put up the last 2 pics. In the last shot it looks like the shoe isn't giving any heel support at all. Do you have a solar pic, that might help some.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 - 10:49 pm:
is this a solar look
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 - 10:51 pm:
He is not in a raised heel shoe anymore, and I am not sure if that is what might be causing his going down hill
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 - 10:59 pm:
Hi susan, a solar view is the bottom of his foot, so we can see his sole and frog etc.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 - 11:19 pm:
I will have to get that tomorrow. I was grasping at straws for what that could mean. I did not think you wanted a picture of the sun, but i thought I would offer something.
I do have him on that supplement you suggested. He likes it, but don't know if it helped at all
I hope Dr.O, has a suggestion or at least can give me some advice on what to ask.
I did buy a hoof tester, since my farrier never seems to have one with him. I have not had him react when I squeeze it on his foot, but I could be doing it wrong. I also tapped on his foot all over the hoof wall, and no pain response.
I have a video camera, I wish I could figure out how to video how he is walking, trotting etc. and post it for an opinion.
When it is time for me to move from here, my first requirement will be a good farrier who works well with a great veterinarian, or I'm not moving!
thanks
suz
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 - 11:40 pm:
Susan I hope Dr.O. can give you some help too. It takes a hoof supplement mos. before you see it's affect. Remember the hoof grows down from the top, so hopefully his new growth will be stronger.
The only problem I have had getting a new vet and farrier was trying to figure out if they were good.
It only took years and years but now I have a vet and farrier that I think are good. I'm ashamed of myself, how bad I let my horses hooves get right before my eyes. Good Luck!!
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 - 11:58 pm:
Hi Susan. Poor Levi and poor you. You've really been dealing with this for a long time. I'm no expert by any means, but in the pictures it does look like his show could be a little longer in the back, but this could be the angle of the picture, as in the first picture they look pretty good. It's so hard to tell from photos. To my eye, the slope of his foot has improved a lot since your first posts.
As far as the hoof tester goes, if you just squeeze hard all over the bottom of his feet, you'll be able to tell by his reaction if you hit a sore spot. I don't think you can do it "wrong."
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 14, 2006 - 6:23 am:
While the ap balance does not look bad, if the shot of the left fore from the front is centered the medial/lateral balance is in question with the lateral wall (on the right side of the image) looking long and should be evaluated when at the veterinarians. Also I would prefer more shoe at the heel for support.
DrO
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Member:
Jockyrdg
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 14, 2006 - 6:38 am:
Hello Susan; A quick lameness does sound like it could be a close or "wet" nail, and it will last for a number of days, but it sounds like you've been through 2 shoeings with this lameness. Changing angles like taking out or adding a wedge can also make them sore for awhile. Again it seems to be a longer time that he has been lame then one would think that would be the culprit. Not an expert on feet either, but my vets tell me you can do hoof testers wrong. But they never have explained what "wrong" is. Also had that told to me by several top and teaching farriers.
Your single front view shot looks like one side of the foot is longer than the other. It is very hard to tell in photos - a mt never looks very steep in a picture. Is the coronet band an even distance to the ground in similar spots on opposite sides of the foot. This would not result in immediate lameness and may grow out differently between farrier visits; but, you made it sound like the feet were just done. Long term it could be a problem - there was a post earlier in the year on this site with a classic un-even cornet band. Again, this could just be the way the photo illustrates, not what reality is. And it wouldn't make him lame overnight. Please keep us posted on what your vet says
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 16, 2006 - 12:46 pm:
Dr. O, I am going to try to post the x-ray, hope it comes up ok. Just wanting your opinion as to if we are ok with his plan
He said he is growing out his toe in a "strange way" Originally he told the farrier to keep the rolled part of this natural balance shoe at the tip of his frog, however the frog is growing out with the toe, so the breakover is not correct.
He had him move the shoe back past the point on his frog, and rasp off quite a bit of toe. He also was concerned that he could have some lower heel pain, causing his being off at the trot. He did a nerve block, but then looked at x-rays for about 20 minutes before we actually trotted him around, so He was still a bit off before the re=setting of the shoes. He mentioned "navicular" but thought it was more "lower heel pain synDrOme?" Possibly caused by trying to correct the founder????
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 16, 2006 - 1:00 pm:
The farrier could not move the shoe back as far as he need to this trip, he will need to go into a smaller shoe, which he did not have with him. Otherwise it would be hanging too far back on his heel, and Levi constantly overshoots, and pulls his shoes off. Also he had a huge air pocket on the out side of the hoof wall, that has been chipping off. We are assuming it is the grow out of the airpockets caused by the founder in May that is finally growning out. There is not enough nail space. He is going to come out in 3 weeks and move it back another 3/4 of an inch. He probably moved it back 3/4 of an inch. He is definately moving better, not 100% yet. But took off running like a wild stallion this morning in the new pasture.
My biggest concern is the digital flexor tendon, I think that is what they called it, One of the gazillion vets I have consulted said he needed to be in a raised heel shoe forever, because of this tendon being too short, causing the stress on his heel. This vet said he wants to keep a natural 3 degree amount of heel there to correct the founder?? Is this ok?
I really want to get to Spring this year and start riding this horse, instead of feeding and scooping his poop all the time!
thanks for your consulting.
Anyone . . . .
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 16, 2006 - 9:42 pm:
I hear you Susan, loud and clear, on wanting to ride in the spring...
Just a thought on supporting the heel and forging... my farrier consultant actually fixed my horses' forging, he rarely does it anymore. His stride is so long that farriers actually cringe when they see him walk! At least 3 hoofprints in the overstride just at the walk.
He set the shoes back to change/increase the breakover and extended the shoe to I think 1/4" behind the heel on all four feet. Not just the front.... the back too, that was the ticket. Granted you know my horse has the long toe/underrun/underslung heels, but thought I would see if this would help... and to commiserate.
Good luck!
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 17, 2006 - 7:01 am:
Hi Susan, I can't really comment on the x-rays, but sometimes it just takes awhile for the hoof to "calm down" IF his shoeing is correct and he is much better give it a few weeks. If he doesn't get any worse and seems to continue to improve you're probably on the right track. Impatience has been one of my problems with Hank and I still cringe if he steps wrong.
You have to remember with founder there is no fast cure. Hank was always a little off when first shod also. As long as it improved in a few days I didn't worry a lot. Good Luck
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 17, 2006 - 10:44 pm:
Thanks Aileen & Diane. It has been almost warm enough to ride right now in Iowa. We have had great weather, just need some hours in the day to spare now.
Levi is still not 100%, but then again I can't remember a time when he was. He is happy, not really lame, just still off. Hopefully we will stay on top of things and come spring, we have to work hard so we will be ready for October's HA trip.
Thankfully we will have about a gazillion and 1/2 dogs and cats boarded for the holiday, so I won't have much time to worry about horses, just dogs and cats! We have them hanging from chandeliers around here.
Hopefully Dr. O will have some input,and let me know we are doing ok.
thanks
suz
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 12:53 am:
I hope Levi is doing o.k. I'm looking forward to meeting him in person. He has the most wonderful eyes! Tell him to take care of himself and those feet of his.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 9:22 am:
Susan, I have read the new posts several times and studied the radiographs and I really cannot be much help from here. The comments made address issues that require examination of the horse something I cannot do. I have to give you the same advice I gave Aileen: study the articles on proper balance and unless there is a very good reason to unbalance the foot your goals should be to achieve a balanced foot when looking from the front and the side. If the recommendations above achieve this: great(!), if not: we need to know why. One issue not addressed in balance is the one of where to place the beginning of breakover of the horse shoe. There are many opinions on this but using the radiographs above I would try to get it as close to a perpendicular line DrOpped from the tip of the coffin bone as is practical.
DrO
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 8:38 pm:
Thanks Dr. O, I think that is what the vet is trying to do by telling my farrier to move the shoe back as far as possible. He will be back the first of January to hopefully push it back even farther. I just hope we can stay ontop of things. I do think, looking at what kind of foot he needs to have, compared to what Rick let him look like by spring of last year, that the rotation occurred because of letting that toe get extra long. The vet describe it like trying to walk with clown shoes on. He is improving each day. Thanks everyone.
suz
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2007 - 2:48 pm:
Well, it is now February and we are still not completely sound. I just want to cry. If I was ignoring the problem, I would feel that I deserved this, but I am trying so hard to get this boy up and running.
All of this up and down lame/not lame can not be good for the rest of his musculatory system. The original vet who diagnosed his rotation in 10/4 had him put in a rocker shoe. He had immediate relief, and we tried to keep him in it for while. This vet is 2 hours away and his farrier charged $200 per visit, plus $50.00 gas, paying employees to be here all day to cover for me being gone, and he wanted him back every 4 weeks. I just could not afford this. We worked then with Rick and got him into a 3 degree raised heel shoe. This seemed to get the rotation corrected. He was ridable for a while. Then Rick kept letting his toes get toooo long, and we again had a severe rotation problem in 5/06 which after being chastised by the current vet for "Vet Shopping" I had decided to keep working with this guy. We had improvement and I did get to ride Levi this summer some. He put him in the natural balance shoe since Sept. The shoe stays on really well, but he has not been 100% sound yet. Perhaps he never will be.
I have been to every vet in the immediate area. I have an appointment with the vet in South Dakota tomorrow. My question is what should I be asking him to do?????
This last vet did a nerve block, but then went away for 20 minutes. he was still lame, but had too much time passed. He then said he might have navicular or 'lower heel pain synDrOme" End of story. Not any advice, just keep toe short, breakover back. That was December and he still is not 100% sound yet.
Are they maybe not looking in the right place. Is there a test I should ask for? He has been on alfalfa all year really. It has increased since the cold weather, and the fact that I have only about 20 bales of grass hay left for 4 horses. Could the alfalfa be a problem to consider. He gets about 1/4 bale (10 lbs+) each pm + a larger cottage cheese container of 1/2 cleaned oats with 1/2 Safechoice (low carb)grain 2 x day + biotin supplement mixed with flax seed and stuff.
This latest vet I have been working with did not feel we were dealing with a feed issue.
One more question? Can I put Levi on a slow boat to your clinic and you send him back when he is all better???????
If you could just let me know what to ask this former vet to look for, so I can get the right answers, I would be most appreciative. He is supposed to be the lameness expert in our area. He is the first one to finally diagnose his rotation after visiting 5 other vets. Rick, my farrier does not do the rocker shoes, and I really have no other options. I had a consult with another farrier here, a young guy, who said he would scrape away all his sole, it was too thick and putting too much pressure on his coffin bone. That did not sound like a good plan, to even an uneducated soul like me. Those are my 2 choices.
thanks
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2007 - 6:15 pm:
Susan, ask him to be methodical. Review the history carefully but not take anything for granted. If you remain uncertain of the cause of the lameness you need to have the veterinarian start at the beginning with a basic examination with the goal to accurately localize where the lameness is and then identify the cause of the lameness. Only then can proper treatment and prognosis be made.
DrO
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 10:34 am:
Hang in there Susan!
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 10:45 pm:
Dr.O, and all
We were at the vet most of the day. He is a wonderful, kind man who unfortunately had bad news for me.
Levi has severe white line disease. They removed the whole outside of his hoof, dug in deeply till a tiny hole drew blood.
His rotation is still bad, but can not be addressed until we get the fungus under control, so he left him in a shoe barely holding on. He also as side bones that are severe, and a chunk of bone floating around in his hoof. He said the reason he has on again off again lameness, is because dependent on his exercise, he has a bone that is basically sloshing around inside his hoof, and that sidebone is banging on the side, this is why he is trying to compensate by walking on the inside of his foot.
I am going to try to upload the x-rays tomorrow, I am so sad and tired and bummed. He said if we work aggressively, maybe he will be rideable by our fall HA group. Something to shoot for, I guess.
I am trying to not be upset with the vet who "yelled at me" for "Vet shopping" but I asked him on 2 occassions if this could be white line disease, from researching on this site, especially the chunking off of hoof wall, and the hollow sounding have been brought to his attention, last May. By now we might have been at a better place.
Well, I guess, at least I have a more solid diagnosis than, lower heel pain synDrOme, which is what this previous vet called it, when he basically did not know.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 - 6:16 am:
Susan, I look at this from the opposite view, not only do you have a diagnosis but white line disease is very curable unlike many other possibilities. Yes it will take some time. Did you see Lee's series on WLD? Wonderful photos of the treatment and healing of a pretty bad case, Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » White Line Disease or Onchyomycosis » Questions re: most likely WLD...
DrO
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 - 7:15 am:
Thank goodness you finally have an answer. Not knowing whats wrong is the worst. He has been on and off lame for so long . At least now you have a chance for him to be sound without worrying when he will be lame again. How frustrating for you to pay all those vet and farrier bills and they were unable to give you the correct diagnosis. I am glad you finally got a diagnosis that fits. Isn't it funny how we have gut instincts, that more than often are right .
Good luck to you both.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 - 12:05 pm:
Susan, I'm glad you finally know what is going on! To my mind there is nothing worse than not knowing what is happening when you have a horse with an obvious problem. Best of luck on the road to recovery for him. Keep us posted.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 - 1:42 pm:
Ditto Susan to what the others said. At least now Levi has started the healing process - you're on the right road, and you have DrO's assurance that WLD is "very curable". Take heart!
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 - 10:35 pm:
Dr. O, Levi was very lame today, I gave him 1 g. bute this am and 1/2 this pm. He was weight bearing, but would shift his weight and bend his leg, on several occassions. How long will he be really sore on this foot, any idea? Lee's post said he was sore post procedure. I am just so worried I will miss something. I will try to figure out how to shrink the picture and post on a new thread. I re-bandaged and betadined it, It looks awful. The vet said to keep an eye to be sure no new stuff appears, It looks yellowish/red, but then so is the betadine. I don't want him to focus too much weight on his other good foot, so I assume I should keep him on the bute till he is not so sore. The vet said he could walk around in his paddock, as long as the foot stayed dry and clean. Should I keep him confined? He was out creeping around for a few hours, but really not moving much. I swear it looks like I am looking at his bone in his foot.
Will post pics tomorrow.
I know I am begging for re-assurance that I won't mess this up.
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 - 6:11 am:
Susan,
the only thing I know about the horse is what you tell me and it is not clear from your posts why your horse is so lame nor does it give enough information to answer the questions. Did the veterinarian expect this much lameness and if so why? If the ground seems to be causing the horse to be sore, yes I would put him in a well bedded stall until the sole toughens and you and your vet should consider higher doses of bute than you are giving.
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 22, 2007 - 1:20 pm:
Dr. O, thanks, he was of course lame when I took him to the vet on Tuesday, so I would not expect that he would suddenly be not lame, after having half of his foot removed. He is much improved today. Still moving slowly, but seems to be distributing his weight better. I gave him another 1/2 g. bute today. I moved the pics, and x-rays to a new post, as this one is so long and a new diagnosis. If you can look at the pics on Levi's WLD and let me know what you think, that would be great.
suz
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levi #3