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Discussion on Swollen hocks- OCD?
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New Member:
Lauras
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Posted on Saturday, May 20, 2006 - 1:13 pm:
My 3yo Friesian mare was vetted when I bought her five weeks ago and was fully sound on flexion tests. She moves really well with lots of natural suspension.
She has just been lightly backed, and has been kept stabled, with occasional turnout during her second year.
As she was slightly underweight I put her out to grass (she will stay out)I have done almost nothing with her during this time, except getting to know her.
On day three I noticed a puffy area on her right hock, in the centre of the joint facing forward, and another slightly harder lump some two inches below this, more or less where hock becomes the tibia, again facing forward but more on the outside of the leg.The other leg also had a tiny swelling in a similar location.
Over the last three weeks the swelling has gotten slightly bigger on the right leg, although it remains the same on the left. I called the vet who once again did even more stringent flexion tests, she is still 100% sound.
She thought that it is OCD but said as it is in its early stages it will not show up on xray as the bone is not yet affected. She explained that they generally do not go lame until it affects the bone but she could give no indication of when this might happen,only that it would and said there is nothing to do but wait for it to happen.
I have read all the info on the site and more besides but am left with some unanswered questions.
1)Can one say that it is OCD without an internal investigation? Is there anything else that it could possibly be?
2)Do all horses that develop OCD go lame?
My horse will be used to develop my natural horsemanship skills. She will be ridden out quite a bit and worked on line, but not worked intensively in any discipline.
3)Is there anything i can do to help my mare, ie rest, exercise, treatment. There seems to be lots of conflicting opinions.
4)Do I wait until lameness develops, before I do anything?
5)How successful is surgery in these cases and when should it be considerd.
I am totally gutted, I do hope you can give me some more advice.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Saturday, May 20, 2006 - 3:28 pm:
Laura, I am so sorry to hear of your horse's diagnosis.
I am sure Dr. O will have some great advice for you, and I have another source for you to email if you so desire. Dr. Sarah Ralston at Rutgers University has been doing research on OCD in rapidly growing horses. I remember reading about a couple of horses in her program that were able to arrest the beginnings of OCD. She welcomes emails from horse owners, and she may be able to help guide you. Please tell her I sent you (Erika Lipton). She can be reached through the website: https://homepage.mac.com/ru_horses/
or: ralston@aesop.rutgers.edu
Best of luck,
Erika
PS: Dr. O, I hope you don't mind my telling about Dr. Ralston's program. I just know that this was the most recent research they did in the past couple of semesters, so there may be some new stuff that isn't "out there" yet.
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New Member:
Lauras
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Posted on Saturday, May 20, 2006 - 6:53 pm:
Dear Erika,
Thank you so much for taking the time to write to me.I will follow your lead up right away and will let you know how I get on.Again thank you.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 7:16 am:
Welcome Laura,
1) No, trauma could cause swelling in the hock.
2) No
3) In order to answer this question requires a diagnosis as to why this is occurring Laura. All things considered I would often recommend in such a situation you have radiographs taken and if there is no evidence of OCD, you treat it as a local trauma until proven different. The fact that it is bilateral suggests he may have strained the area while exercising in the pasture.
4) This also depends on the diagnosis.
5) This also depends on the diagnosis.
In a general way most of your questions are answered in the article Equine Diseases » Lameness » Joint & Bone Diseases » OCD and DOD in Horses and in a specific way some of your questions are answered in the article Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Upper Rear Limb » Overview of Diseases of the Hock (Tarsus). If so you read them you should review.
Erika, we encourage links to valuable sites, but remember we are as current as today's research journals, I don't think it gets more current than that.
DrO
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New Member:
Lauras
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Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 9:38 am:
Dear Dr O,
Thankyou for your reply.
Can you tell me if the location of my mares swelling in the correct place for this condition or can the location vary with OCD?
It does seem sensible to order x-rays
but i am on a very tight budget. My local vet explained that in the early stages (before lameness)it would not show up on X-ray. Is their any other test that will definitively prove she has or has not got this condition?
The vet thought it was far less likely to be trauma as it occurs in both legs and in identical spot on both legs?
She also felt after 4 weeks if it were a trauma it should have healed a bit.
It is so difficult to know what to do for the best as I am not very experienced in these matters.
Thankyou for your help.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 10:57 am:
We can help you with the understanding part. The OCD does not cause swelling itself but can result in a synovitis (a form of arthritis) of the tibiotarsal jt that does cause swelling. I have seen traumatic injuries that resulted in life long swelling of the tt joint so I don't think that rules it out and if you look at the article on OCD it gives times for typical forms of OCD to show themselves radiographically.
DrO
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New Member:
Lauras
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Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 3:29 pm:
Thankyou Doctor O,
I am going to have her X-rayed. I talked with hospital today and they seem to think they will be able to tell something from X-ray. If not some kind of ultrasound should give more info.
They do a lot of this surgery here as there are so many horses racing and jumping very young. He said it has A very good success rate.
We will take it from there.
Thankyou so much for your help.
Laura
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 4:08 pm:
Sorry, Dr. O. I didn't mean that we aren't up to date here, as this site is the best I know.
I just know that Dr. Ralston just recently dealt with a couple of horses while researching feeds for young horses and thought it might be another source of info.
You're still #1 in my computer!
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New Member:
Lauras
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 1, 2006 - 7:13 pm:
Dear Dr.O,
Jewel my three y.o Friesian has now been xrayed and 2 opinions sought. Both said no evidence of OCD.
The vet who took the x-rays disagreed with the first vets OCD diagnosis saying the mare had inflamation of the tendon sheath.
She suggested I apply DMSO and continue working.
While i was relieved at the diagnosis I was concerned by her casualness. Surely inflamed tendons in a horse who has done virtually nothing must be indicative of stress and can only lead to a worsening of the condition when she is further stressed by being ridden.
I am now not sure how to progress from here. Have you any advice for me on helping my horse recover? I am quite happy not to ride her till next spring if you think it would give her time to mature and grow stronger.She is only three and as a Friesian she is still a baby. I would really value your opinion. i only want to do what is best for her.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jun 2, 2006 - 9:47 am:
Hmmm the swellings would be entirely different appearing: can we have good photos to evaluate?
The grave outlook you give is not necessarily so laura. Simple blunt trauma or a good trip is the most likely cause for such a problem. I have occasionally seen bilateral cases that may have been related to conformation / work but even those horses were sound. Swellings in the front indicate this is an extensor tendon sheath which is not near as serious as the flexors in the rear. Check the toe length if you see occasional tripping and a rolled toe will decrease the forces on this area.
DrO
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Member:
Lauras
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Posted on Friday, Jun 2, 2006 - 4:10 pm:
Thankyou Dr.O,
I will try to get you good photos, it should give you a very clear idea.
She has her toes well trimmed.
She has tripped once or twice when i first got her and she was on slippy ground, but the swelling were already there at this point.
Conformationally she has a short back and a very sloped hindquarter. When she moves there is a lot of bend in her stifle and hock and she pushes off the vertical with her hind leg not with them out behind her. Once when i saw her play with other horses i noticed she can rear up with great ease.
When i got her she had just been started. i watched her being ridden. She was anxious, head in the air, hollow or overbending her neck and breaking in the third vertebrae. This latter tendency was very marked when I got her but is getting less and less the more relaxed and confident she becomes.
However someone told me recently that this tendency to break in the third is indicative of things not being well conformationally.
What is your view on this Dr.O
Laura
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 4, 2006 - 10:09 am:
Break in the third? This sounds like mumbo-jumbo for a horse that holds his nose up in the air and as you have found this has more to do with the horse's attitude (excitement, resistance, and occasionally back pain) than anything broken with the 3rd cervical vertebrae.
DrO
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 4, 2006 - 2:18 pm:
Laura, she sounds very typical Friesian to me. I am no expert, but the ones I have watched usually have steep hindquarters with lots of action behind, and tend to be high in the front. I think what you might have been seeing in her neck is just a young, green horse's reaction to beginning training, with the horse not quite "getting" what is being asked.. Perhaps she just needed more ground work (with side reins that she could trust) before dealing with the rider's hands. She may have been overbending/raising her head simply because she wasn't trusting the bit to hold steady for her.
If they were showing her to you for purchase, maybe the rider was nervous and trying to get more collection than the horse was ready for.
You said yourself that this horse is a late maturer. Maybe you can just let her grow up a bit more before you find her a really good trainer?
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Member:
Lauras
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 4, 2006 - 3:44 pm:
Hi Again Erika,
Thankyou once again for your interest.
Jewel was not ridden by a rider who was able to offer her much feel and as you said this was her reaction to the discomfort and constraint.She fluctuated between being high and hollow to being behind and overbent (and still hollow).
As i have worked on line with her over the last few weeks she has come down a lot and I have noticed less and less of her tendancy to break in the third.I have worked with horses who have this tendency ingrained and it is very diff. to break the pattern.
I have decided to stop all work with her other than walks outside on line where I will also continue to teach her to be soft and yielding through her body while putting no stress on her joints.We will see how it goes but we will not attempt to ride her till next spring no matter what.
We have seen two vets,the first told me to put DMSO on her the other told me it was banned.They see so many young racehorses and showjumpers in a bad way here that they seemed to think Jewels condition was no big deal. I'm afraid I find it very hard not to be concerned.
At the moment I am hosing her and also red lighting her.
Again Thanks for our post
What kind of horse do you have?
Laura
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 4, 2006 - 4:46 pm:
It sounds like you are doing the right thing for your horse with the training. Dr. O will have to speak to the medical stuff.
The little I know about Friesians is from stallion shopping. I have a three year old half Friesian filly. It was fun looking for a sire to breed to my mare (American Saddlebred). The Friesians I saw all had the most wonderful ready to please temperaments, and thankfully, my filly seems to have inherited that from her father and her mother.
I also have a draft-cross three year old registered American Warmblood filly (she is for sale). And lastly, a thirty-two year old Morgan gelding.
Just a hint since I know you are new to the site, if you click on a person's name you can see their profile, which often lists the types of horses people have.
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Member:
Lauras
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Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2006 - 5:48 pm:
Dear Dr. O,
Here are the pictures of jewel`s left hock. Her right hock shows identical but much, much smaller inflamation. In one of the photos you can see the swollen area in the centre of the hock, evidenced by the raised hairs.The lower lump on the outside upper canon bone is clearly visible in all photos. I hope this will shed some light on the situation. I have ceased all work with Jewel 2 weeks ago and for the last few days have rubbed in a solution of DSMO with cortizone.
While these lumps did exist before i started to work Jewel on line, she did slip badly on the circle a couple of times when the field was wet. Could this have contributed to it getting so much worse.
Jewels xrays were sent to vet school who also said no evidence OCD.
Jewel is slightly sickle hocked. As she has lots of bend and therefore suspension in both her hocks and stifles will this conformational characteristic mean that her hocks will always be under too much pressure.
Thankyou for your continued advice.
We have just tried to attach the photos but it keeps telling us that even one picture is to big to upload
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 13, 2006 - 7:14 am:
Hello Laura,
Check out this topic to help you with loading photos, see News & Help » Uploading Images and Files Into a Posting.
DrO
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Member:
Lauras
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 17, 2006 - 9:01 pm:
Dear Doctor O,
Jewel has now been resting completely for three weeks. During this time I have hosed her legs with cold water, red lighted her and rubbed in DMSO with cortisone, all to no avail, the lumps remain exactly the same size.
Do you think it is possible for the synovial fluid to be re-absorbed or will she just remain like this. Is there anything else I can do to help her?
Thankyou for your advice.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 18, 2006 - 9:45 am:
Hey Laura,
Is your horse currently lame? If not, I wonder if it is possible that these are benign lumps (I happen to have a couple--one on my wrist and one on my shoulder, right on the joints. They don't hurt, but they are noticeable if you look! )
The reason I ask is because you said that your vet has ruled out OCD, and that others don't seem too concerned with it.
I am NOT belittling your concern, however. Just yesterday as I was loading my filly onto the trailer, the woman next to me said "You have a lot of concern for her, don't you?" Though she meant it in a kind way, I did realize that any other horse I would have loaded up and driven off, but with her I kept checking through her window, and took forever to close up and go!
We love these animals of ours and it is very easy to be so concerned! I hope you find out what is going on so you can enjoy your new horse. Good luck.
Erika
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 21, 2006 - 8:47 am:
I apologize for this late response laura, we are traveling and in the irregular connections my earlier reply apparently got lost.
Unfortunately we are still just guessing at the cause of the swelling. It is possible that pressure to remove the swelling will help. It is difficult to bandage the hock without causing sores and we have found neoprene hock boots helpful. For more see the section on Synovitis in the Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Upper Rear Limb » Overview of Diseases of the Hock (Tarsus).
DrO
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