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Discussion on Founder relapse after 4 years
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New Member:
Hannah
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Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 7:20 am:
Hi Dr.O,
I recently discovered this site in what seems to be an endless search for answers during the last few months regarding laminitis and founder. And I must say that I have read and reread many of the articles here with great interest, perhaps too great in the eyes of my employer to whom I now owe several working hours
I would be extremely grateful if you, and all of you other owners of foundered horses, had some input and/or some useful information to share with me regarding my horse´s case.
This could easily be a story reaching novel size, but I will try to keep it short.
Masai is a 16 year old gelding Lipizzaner. He is sedate in temperament, a bit on the heavy side, and have been as long as he has been in my care, which is now going on the 6th year. Being a first time horse owner in a local riding school, I was content when the supervisor offered to set up a feeding regime based on her "try and fail" aquired expertise. The hay was also mouldy and worthy of much critique, which resulted in my horse loosing his coat in excess during winter. A veterinarian was called and diagnosed him with founder. Ha was also given several shots of vitamin B12 to account for his loss of coat. The advise I was given (from this very unexperienced vet. whom normally dealt only with cats and dogs) was to use duct-tape his hooves and place cotton on his soles as protection, and cool off his feet with cold running water two times a day. I was also recommended to walk him to the extent he was able. I followed the advise I was given, not really understanding on what grounds they were given, but following them nonetheless. The founder subsided, and the horse returned to normal use within weeks. As I mentioned I was a first time horse owner, and had only had Masai for about 1 year when this happened so any abnormalities in his gait/step may easily have passed me by. He was also shoed at the time, so he walked "fine" as far as I could see, but even I could not NOT notice him almost falling to the ground if accidentally stepping on a pointy rock hitting his bare sole.
Four years has since passed, he has been put out to pasture every summer, 3-4 months continiously, every time since without sign of relapse, until now sadly..
This March-early April I noticed him suddenly becoming extremely lame in his left front leg. I initially thought he might have an abscess, since that has happened once before, and called my (new) Vet. The Vet came and did an examination, put pressure on his soles, and concluded that he was sore in both feet, and had an excessive pulse in both as well, but mainly in the left one. My vet, being a bit bewildered, concluded that he most likely had abscesses in both forelegs at the same time.. Having seen my horse display the same symptoms before argued that it might be a relapse of founder, but this should prove to take up to a week for the Vet to realise. So, when he finally came to the (obvious?) conclution he was given a 14- day treatment of Bute (Fenylbutazone) and ordered to stable confinement and a pure hay, no grain, diet. This did visually nothing for my horse, he was as lame as ever. We decided after two weeks to drive him to the clinic and get x-rays to diagnose rotation/sinking. The result was some rotation and sinking, but I was never informed as to the actual degree. His soles are extremely thin and it feels soft when you put pressure on it. After this he was put on a new antiinflammatory drug that had some painkiller effects (cannot remember the name) and this did wonders! He was completely painfree, and had trouble standing still, he was as play full as a foal. At this time I had him turned out every day in a softbedded sand paddock in which he was able to place his feet in which angle he most preferred. He was seen trotting, cantering and even bucking several times a day. I watched with mixed emotions, knowing the reason of the behaviour, but enjoying seeing him like that anyway.
I have been in contact with three different veterinarians whom have supposedly discussed what to do from now, and have come to the conclution that the best thing would be for me to give my horse plastic glue-on shoes to get his sole above ground. Since I have kept him barefoot for the last 11/2 years, I tend to be more favourable to this approach, but afraid to go against the advise ot the experts at the same time. I have in the meantime experimented with styrofoam, tape and even taped on plastic shoes from time to time. I also soak his feet in a solution of apple vinaigre, and use "crystalviolet" (a formaldehyde solution for thrush) to get rid of the separations in his lamellae, which has been a continous project during the last 11/2. I also trim his hooves myself, and have during this period done whatever I can to uphold some normality. This was one of the reasons why the Vet did not recognise him as having foundered, bacause his hooves looked normal. I have cut back his toes, and been careful about overdoing his heels, and rather been waiting for some stability in his hooves before reducing them. I have also tried frog-support to try and relieve the pressure of the soles, and make him take more weight on his frogs. This seems to help only slightly. What is the most efficient seems to be plastic shoes hold in place by the means of duct-tape. Then he walked almost normal, and I am able to take him for a walk, which he seems to enjoy.
What more is there to say? Yes, he still insists on shifting his weight from one foot to the other every few minutes even when standing in 1/2 meter of soft shavings, however he does it less now than he did one month ago. His digital pulse has also gone down. Without any protection on his soles he absolutely refuses walking on hard/uneven surfaces. but his apetite is good, and he stands/walks all day when on soft ground.
The reason for his founder is somewhat mysterious, the hay we have at our stable is excellent quality, but he was fed molasses in the winter and when his paddock buddie moved from us he might have gotten to the free-acess hay a bit too much, being kept away parts of the day previously. I also changed brand of grain-feed during this period to Spillers, but this kind of feed was supposed to prevent laminitis, being high in fibre.
Sooo, any input or advise as to what I should to do now? Any pointers on shoing/not shoing, pasture/not pasture (as this has never caused the onset of founder previously)?
I have recently bought a grazing muzzle just in case, but I am still rather hesitant about letting him graze, espescially now when the grass is extremely lush. But the poor thing wants it sooo bad..
Is it a possibility that he has had some form of founder all these years in between since his gait has always seemed a bit restricted? And is the prognosis any different when this is the second time around?
Thank you for reading, and please excuse my spelling, as english is not my native tongue.
Regards,
Liv and Masai
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 8:17 am:
Hi Liv,
Sorry about the situation Masai finds himself in. I have a TWH mare who was diagnosed with EPM when she was 4. She had had it since I purchased her at 2 1/2 but the diagnosis kept being that she was lazy and just needed work. By the time she was finally diagnosed and treatment started she was in really bad shape. One of the side effects of EPM is founder - which she did - over and over. After being told to put her down on three separate occasions by the vet I was using - I called an equine specialist and begged him to come see my horse.
His prescription was to put her on styrofoam blocks until the majority of soreness subsided and then get her on the Equine Digital Support System shoes. The first shoeing with EDSS is spendy - my farrier charged $200.00 - but the resets were regular cost.
The instant Fox was put on the EDSS shoes she walked off sound. Since then, Fox has foundered at least three more times - we're up to the 7th episode at present. Every time she has been put on the EDSS shoes and it has resolved. She is sound - which is really unbelievable. You can find information on the EDSS shoes at
https://www.hopeforsoundness.com I haven't done a search on this site for information on these shoes but it's probably here.
Good luck with Masai.
Cheryl
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 7:50 am:
Welcome Liv,
I need to correct one misconception in Cheryl's post: founder is not a side effect of EPM. It is clear that her horse was suffering from poor shoeing and possible founder which most likely was a low heel and long toe, problems the EDSS shoes address very well. Since the horse responds so well to the shoes the recurring founder appears to be related to trimming/shoeing problems.
Liv, first is that I am afraid it is going to take patience to get this horse better, some serious acute founders of these require months to a year to get back, often with intermittent complications like abscesses to tend to. If the sole is so thin, I do not recommend you put shoes on this horse since you can keep him comfortable on the soft ground. If you remove solar support for the coffin bone you may have further laminae tearing. Continue with the very soft ground until you have thicker tougher soles and a sounder horse.
If he is heavy you need to correct that. There should be no reason for this horse to receive concentrates in any form until that weight is lost. If this founder was associated with grazing a lush pasture then you need to realize free access again may very well start another episode.
I do think you need to get a better handle of what is goind on. You and your farrier need to know how much rotation your horse has and the position of the coffin bone within the hoof capsule. You need to know the name of the medications your horse is on, how much he is getting, etc.. If you can give us more specifics we could help a bit more too.
DrO
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 4:01 pm:
Welcome Liv,
Sorry your horse is in this situation. Don't despair, it is possible your horse can be sound again.
My older mare had two episodes of laminitis years ago. She is now kept on the thin side, no concentrates at all, very, very careful grazing in spring and fall. She has been problem free for years now, and she even goes barefoot. Sometimes I use boots.
For pain relief and sole support, my trimmer recommends Old Mac boots with a thick pad in them. It works like the styrofoam, but it stays on better.
Good luck. It is a long recovery, but it is possible.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 9:58 pm:
Welcome Liv, I must compliment you on your english as a second language. I only wish I could spell or even correctly pronounce a second language.
I am in the same boat as you with my horse having a recurrent laminitis. It has been a month now, and we are doing much better. It is so hard to be patient, but We too are working on getting the weight off. It seems to take forever, but I do believe that it will be the key to keeping him healthy in more ways than one.
Erika, I have been slowly turning levi out, and I put the old macs on just as a precaution. I am so glad that I did today, as I forgot to shut the gate to the huge pasture when I let the boys out. Off they went a charging out the gate, Levi at stampede speed. I chased him down finally, and returned him to his yard. I can only hope he did not damage anything. As of tonight he was still walking normal. He just trots a little funny with the boots on, but I really love them.
I just wish I was not such an air head sometimes, he has broken into a full speed at least 3 times since we have been rehabilitating, at least externally he has stayed sound,
Liv, I also am using the grazing muzzle. It is amazing that with training, they can learn how to use them. It is frustrating for them, but at least they can be out with their friends.
Good Luck and my thoughts and horsey prayers are with you.
Suz
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New Member:
Hannah
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Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 8:45 am:
Thank you all for helping me in this difficult situation. I have felt incredibly "lost" in dealing with this disease since the people who should be able to help and give advice (my Vet) have failed tremendously in doing so. They do not seem to have any understanding of the disease, and no experience in dealing with it, so I have been left mostly to myself, which is very frustrating
Here is exactly what medication Masai was given after the initial visit of the Vet. (Mind, he still thought we were dealing with a case of abscesses in both fore-legs)
One bag (1 gram) of bute (ATC: M01AA01 Phenylbutazone) two times a day for two weeks. This did not help noticeably.
After 14 days, we went to the clinic to get x-rays. We were then given a 5-day cure of Quadrisol (ATC: M01AE90 Propionic acid derivatives), 5 ml two times a day, which had an immediate effect, at least on his general comfort level.
After this I heard nothing from my Vet for days, until I had to call and get him to come an see us again. He recommended shoeing with heartbar shoes after examining (read: he checked his pulse and felt the soles of his feet.. that was it..)the horse again. He asked me if I thought Masai was feeling better and moving around more, and I said that there might be a "small" improvement, but that I did not know if it was actual improvement, or simply the medication. I was given no more medication, simply told to keep him on soft ground until shoeing. He also told me to start walking him when I was able to make him comfortable using styrofoam and tape.. So this is what I have been doing the last 4 weeks, taping him with styrofoam and walking as much as I felt he was able, maybe 10-20 minutes. What worries me is that he is still shifting his legs, so what if he is still in the onset of the disease? Since he is clearly in pain. And maybe getting worse? Should he still be on medication?
And Dr.O could you please explain what you mean by "solar support for the coffin bone"? And consentrates?
He is given just three handfulls of grain feed a day (oats and barley) with a tablespoon of MgO, vit. B12, Omega 3 and some multivitamins. I have had an equitherapist make out a feeding regime for him, consisting of these kinds of feed, all organic, but I have not started giving it in full yet since I am afraid to give him too much. The equitherapist however, told me I could begin feeding 1/2litre now, and increase gradually. But I have stuck with the 3 handfull´s anyway. But do you think I should just quit giving this as well?
I am very worried that I am not doing everything I can for my horse at this moment. Perhaps there is is not so much you can actually do, but I would prefer to do something that was probably useless but worth trying than nothing and just sit around and hope..
Would it help if I got a copy of the x-rays and put it in here for you to see maybe?
I seriously do not know why I was never told the actual degree of rotation/sinking, I just know that there was some of both. And I also know that I shall call the clinic and find out more.
The first time he got sick, 5 years ago, I was 17 years old, and was not even told the reason for his disease, which might account for him having a relapse. When I think about this I get a bit angry, because all of this could have been avoided. But this time I hope to educate myself enough so I can at least stop it from happening again, and try and get ALL the answers to be sure he does not suffer more than he have to..
Sorry for not being able to keep this short, I just have so many things I want to say
Liv & Masai
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New Member:
Hannah
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Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 9:10 am:
I forgot to mention, grazing has not been the (main) factor in him foundering these two times. It has either been mouldy hay (the first time), or too much carbs (this time).
The weird thing is that he is not really fat either. He is big boned, as Lipizzans tend to be, but you can feel his ribs all along his side. He has however, an extremely large and hard neck, which I have understood is related to the founder?
Many people actually some up to me complimenting us on his large "powerful" neck and asks if he is a stallion.. Too bad that is not the case..
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 9:38 am:
Liv, I have been reading your posts with interest. I have an Arabian gelding who has also had several bouts with founder. The last time my vet as much as told me to just put him down as he would never be useful again. He said he just had too many things going on to overcome. I followed advice received on this site, plus added several supplements and minerals to his diet. I kept him in a deeply bedded stall with styrofoam pads on his feet for several weeks. I kept his door into his pen open so he could look out, but he was so sore he seldom moved out into his pen. I also kept him on bute for what seemed like ages. As he got a little more comfortable, I turned him out into a soft, sandy arena for several hours a day. Gradually he got better. He did have a lot of weight to loose. My vet said he had Cushings, but Dr. O thought he had metabolic synDrOme or was "pre-cushings." After reading up on both, I agreed with Dr. O. The gelding still has some weight to loose, but is 110% better. He acts like his "old self" - bossy and mischeivious. I am back to working him lightly, however I still stay on soft ground. His coat again has a deep sheen, and he seems healthy in all respects.
I did have this gelding feet trimmed several times to adjust his angles to agree with the slight rotation he had, but I left him barefoot.
Like you, I felt my vet "DrOpped the ball," perhaps because of his own frustrations and because many people in our rural area wish to spend the time, energy and money it takes to deal with my gelding's problems.
So, "hang in there" because chances are very good, imo, that your gelding will recover from this with your good care. There were days when I felt that perhaps my vet was right and my horse should be put down; but when I looked into his eyes I could see he wasn't ready to give up, so I couldn't give up on him.
Have you read the articles on this site regarding Cushings and metabolic synDrOme? Also, the ones one laminitis and founder? I found them very helpful. Helpful also, were previous posts from others who have dealt with these problems.
Good luck to you.
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New Member:
Hannah
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Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 10:10 am:
Thank you for your optimistic words It means a lot to me. I am not ready to even think about putting him down, since he is such a sweet and overly kind horse who still has sparks in his eyes, like your horse!
I am prepared to take all the time needed to get him better, and in the meantime, I will look to wherever to make it as quick and as painless for him as possible. That is why I am here
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 7:58 pm:
Let's start with solar support. The coffin bone is suspended in the hoof by the laminae which attach it to the wall (see Overview of Founder for a thorough explanation of this). During founder the laminae become diseased. It is thought that by increasing solar support, support from the bottom of the foot, you take some of the forces off the laminae to ameliorate damage to the laminae.
Concentrates are any source of nutrients more concentrated than those found in grass hay. Though grass is not considered a concentrate during its lush growing stage it becomes high is rapidly digested carbs and perhaps more important develops some carbs the horse cannot digest but that the laminitis inducing bacteria can. Again these concepts are developed further in the articles on founder.
What does the "Overview" article say about any grain Liv? We can go through each of these and you can ask does this apply to me and really without examining your horse, I cannot make specific recommendations. However we offer concepts and principles that are embedded in the best science at this time and have worked for me personally. In general while a horse is painful with founder I follow the recommendations strictly so that no matter which cause is contributing to the damage it is stopped as quick as possible. Once the horse is comfortable you can begin to think about which corners you can try to cut.
DrO
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 8:42 pm:
Liv... not sure if you've seen these sites before. alot of them speak specifically to foundered and laminitic horses. Where are you located? maybe there is a hoofcare specialist in your area?
https://www.hoofcare.com/related_links.html
https://barefoothorse.com/
https://www.TheHorsesHoof.com/
https://www.tribeequus.com/
https://www.thenakedhoof.com.au/html/article-WhatIsNaturalBoarding.htm
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 7:36 am:
Dr O, I was told by my Vets that founder was often a side effect of EPM - Of course they are the same ones who insisted she was just lazy for 2 1/2 years. I think what actually brought the founder on was alfalfa. To date she has foundered 7 times. All but the first two times we've traced it to alfalfa. Unfortunately - she can sniff out a sprig of alfalfa from 10 miles. She is also way overweight. Her feet have always been trimmed with the toes rocked since the first bout of founder. When she's shod - which isn't often - she is shod with the Natural Balance shoes in the front - and I'm beginning to think she needs them in the back also. The weight has been a perpetual battle. She was down to about 1000 pounds last fall, but the North Dakota winters are really rough and I let her have free choice grass hay throughout the cold weather. End result - she packed on the weight again - back to 1100+ She never gets any supplements, no grain, just grass or grass hay. Dr. Macomber was fine with her hoof angles - other than one hoof was 1/8 inch longer than the other. I'm hoping to get her back on a regular trimming schedule after our recent move from ND to Montana and I would love to find a farrier who would do the "wild horse bare foot trim" for her. I have a feeling that would resolve a lot of her problems but all the farriers I've used have disagreed.
I was under the impression the reason the EDSS shoes work so well is that they remove pressure from the hoof wall preventing more tearing of the laminae. Is this incorrect?
Thanks, Cheryl
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 10:44 am:
Cheryl, forgive me for being blunt, but why do you allow your horse to be overweight? It is one of the most prominent predispositions to laminitis. And one of the most easily prevented.
All the trimming in the world won't help if your horse is on the edge of danger from weight.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 10:50 am:
Sorry, that DID sound too blunt! I realize that she only gets hay. Some horses seem to live on air, don't they? But it IS critical to monitor carefully, and only feed what is necessary to maintain lean weight.
Is your horse rideable? Exercise helps keep the blood sugar stable as well as weight managed.
Good luck.
Erika
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 12:11 pm:
It's OK to be blunt When it's -30 degrees with a 20-40 mph wind and my horses are standing there shivering and the only way I can help is to give them hay - I give them hay. Fox got fat in the first place due to the EPM - she was stalled 24/7 for months on end - which ended when I changed Vets. She is a super easy keeper and during that time she went up to 1200. I was unable to ride her for close to 2 years. I am now - finally in a situation where I can and do ride her on a daily basis. Given previous history - it will take at least a year to bring her back down to 1000. Her thyroid levels have been up in the past - which is probably part of the reason it's so hard to get weight off. I need to have them checked again and see if she needs to go back on meds. Hate to do that because that means she would need a handful of grain every day - again. She gained weight like crazy while she was on the diclauseral(sp). She was getting a pound of powder a day and the only way I could get it down her was with blended carrots - apples and sweetfeed. She absolutely ballooned. Right now she's around 1100 and I am trying hard to get it down.
Cheryl
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Member:
Cataylor
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Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 1:43 pm:
Nothing to add except I understand the feelings of guilt and frustration over following vet advice which later seems to be the antithesis of what should have been done for a horse in distress. I have read information on founder/laminitis/Cushings/metabolic disorder/insulin resistance until my head spins. Finding the right balance is tough. I'm not sure if I'm there with my pony or not, but I feel like we've come a long way. Jingles to Liv, Susan and Cheryl and your horses. Not that I wish any of this on anyone else, but it does help to have people who understand to share with. This board is a gift to those of us looking for help for our equine friends. And thank you to Dr. Oglesby for being a voice of reason, intelligence, and information.
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New Member:
Hannah
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Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 5:31 pm:
This might be worthy a look:
https://www.johnthevet.com/
The writer actually does not have a black and white outlook on how to trim foundered horses, and he looks into the most widely used methods and looks at the pros and cons of each. This I have missed, since I usually get a bit ambivalent when people tell me that ONE way is the correct one, and only this one. I think it is important to be open to different possibilities. Those who profess to know everything are usually the ones who know the least. Since it takes a lot of knowledge to just be able to say that we do not really know that much.. Just to be a bit philosophic
Cheryl, I just wanna thank you for following my loooong tale of me and Masais journey through this. It is so good to know that there are more of us, even though it is terrible to find that so many horses have to suffer through this, as Cindy said very nicely just above. I have not yet met anyone here in Norway who had had a foundered horse.. It seems like everyone has these huge warmbloods that they have to struggle to keep weight on.. How ironic.. While my little white furry friend could probably have been able to live large on water and air alone..
Cheryl, you said that if your horse has to go back on meds that you will have to give him a handfull of grain? Why not just mix the meds with a tiny amount of water and use a ciringe to get it directly into his mouth? That is what I did when Masai was on bute for 14 days and not allowed to have any additional feed. It works like a charm, and as a bonus you know that you got it all in there as well
What kind of horses do you guys have by the way? I was in Wyoming once and rode a Quarterhorse, a beautiful big horse called Coco. I immediately fell in love with this breed, but they are very expensive here in Norway. And it seems the only ones who have them are cowboy wannabees.. We actually went to this big rodeo, but I do not quite know how I felt about that experience. It is certainly very different from anything you would find here. The horses were great though!
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Member:
Hannah
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Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 5:41 pm:
Just thought I would give you a picture to go with our names
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 6:10 pm:
Liv, What a lovely picture! He's gorgeous!! I certainly do wish you the best and hope you are able to resolve his founder issues.
And to all of you that post from other countries (than the USA) I am SO impressed with your usage of English! Makes me feel pretty uneducated!
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Member:
Cataylor
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Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 6:49 pm:
Masai is gorgeous! (I love his name) And the two of you look great together. I echo Sara's sentiments on English usage from other countries. How impressive!
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 8:07 am:
Liv - sorry - I shouldn't have used the initials TWH knowing you were not from the US - I have three horses - Fox and Robby are Tennessee Walking Horses and Lady is a Thoroughbred. I "think" Fox has some residual nerve damage from the EPM which causes her to stumble on her rear feet. From my experience Walkers are very mellow horses and they love attention. They are also very stoic and put up with just about any atrocitiy people want to inflict on them.
I hadn't thought about mixing the Thyrol L with water and syringing it down her - Followed with a carrot it might work. The Vet will be back out in a couple weeks to pull two of Lady's teeth - so will have him do a blood test when he's here. Lady was just diagnosed with Cushings so will be giving her meds too - at least she can have hers on feed 
Cheryl
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 9:18 am:
Cheryl, yes the EDSS does aid breakover and therefore the force on the laminae, it also decreases sole pressure which increases the forces on the laminae. How this balances out is uncertain and probably depends on the individual case: For those with long toes low heels the EDSS may have a net benefit, for those with upright feet maybe not.
DrO
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 9:42 am:
Thanks, Dr. O - I will start my own topic as I don't want to take over Liv's - but I do have some questions on how Fox should be trimmed.
Cheryl
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Member:
Hannah
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Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 3:19 pm:
If you guys watched as much tv in norwegian as I do english, you would be surprised as to how easy it is to learn a language We have exactly the same programs and channels that you guys do. We watch "desperate housewives", "LOST". And every evening it is David Letterman, with a few days delay on the episodes however.. Combine this with having 5 english-lessons a week for 10 years in school and even having your coursebooks in english at college.. But ask me to write in french and you will have a great laugh I can tell you
Over to horsey-things:
Anyone know how long it takes for the founder to "settle" or to get to a point where it does not get any worse at least? After 1-2 months of stable confinement and meds, would you think that he has reached this point? I am just thinking about when I can start walking him slightly. I also worry about when to let him out together with the other horses, since if they decide to chase him, he will not be able to run from them..
I let him out in the field with his muzzle today, but he does not get it! I have to put the grass through the hole for him, and so the result is that he follows me around whenever I am with him. Which I can understand since I have become his automatic candy machine apparently..
Sadly, I have not seen any progress in his state since the meds put him through the initial worst period. He is still the same, and this worries me a bit..? He is clearly in pain since he keeps shifting his legs from one to the other. Should I ask my Vet to give me some painrelief for him? Or is this relatively mild pain in comparison to how it COULD have been? Even so little that it is best for him to actually have some pain so he does not move around in a fashion that might hurt him further?
I just does not like seeing him shift his legs like that..
And Cheryl, please feel free to discuss trimming here in this topic, since trimming concerns us all, and I find it really interesting! Do you use the wild horse trim as a model on your horses?
Liv & Masai
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Member:
Cataylor
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Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 8:32 pm:
Liv, your description of Masai shifting and the pain makes me physically hurt. Get x-rays and get suggestions on how to proceed with a trim from there -- from someone who knows -- Dr. Oglesby is a great place to start since you say there's not a lot of experience on founder in Norway. I only wish I had gotten more opinions on my pony before now. It could be that Masai needs to be trimmed to get his coffin bone back aligned too.
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New Member:
Bravo
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Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 11:43 pm:
Unfortunately, we have some experience with laminitis. We require the horses to stand in cold muddy water, a stream is ideal, for a minimum of 4 hours daily. This keeps the imflamation to a minimum. We use Laminasaver by Figuerola Labs --- it is a little pricey but it is very effective. It encourages blood circulation to keep the hoof alive and well. The most critical part of our treatment is weight loss and the maintenance of weight loss; for one of our mares, Sugar, she is never allowed in the pasture during the spring months. She puts on excessive weight if she grazes on that rich grass. There is a feed, Dynamite. They have a low carb pellet which is also helpful - TNT. We have found a correlation between a tendency to have laminitis and a hypothryoid. Please baseline her blood work and proceed accordingly. There is recent research which parellels a tendency to founder with insulin resistance also. Stay AWAY FROM CORTIOSTEROID SHOTS ALSO. One of our Vets gave this type shot for fly bite edema; this was the etiology of our first episode. Our very best to you and God Bless.
JJ
LaminaSaver
Other products by Figuerola Labs
A proprietary formula of powerful nutraceuticals to enhance the body’s ability to promote cell regeneration during founder and /or laminitis. Also supports healthy laminae, hooves, sole, frog, white line junction, connective tissues, coffin bone, pastern bone, and outer hoof wall. Encourages tissue elasticity, permeability and flexibility while promoting oxygenation to ailing hooves. Increases blood flow to sensitive and insensitive laminae, promotes new cell growth, restores blood supply to inflamed tissues, protects cells with antioxidant action, improves resistance to infections, and promotes hoof strength to protect against dry and splitting hooves. Initial administration: feed 1 scoop AM and 1 scoop PM for the first 12 weeks, preferably on an empty stomach. Maintenance administration: Feed ½ scoop AM and ½ scoop PM, preferably on an empty stomach. Dosage can be increased at any time to achieve individual needs.
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Member:
Hannah
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Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 3:27 am:
That sounds interesting: LaminaSaver
But is it too late for Masai to begin with this since he is not "critical" anymore?
Never heard of this product before.. But I will try anything!
And yesterday I walked him up a stream for 1/2 hour, but I might just step it up from now on then! Thanks for great advice Jane and Cindy!
One observation: When Masai is in his stall he keeps digging his toes down in the deep shavings.. So he is clearly saying that he wants his heels to be higher? And I on the other hand, keep trying to lower his heels.. What is wrong here? Any thoughts?
Gods, I have a thousand questions.. So glad you guys take time to answer me and share your wisdom, it means the world to us!!
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 9:09 am:
JJ, my laminitic prone mare is also named Sugar. Funny, huh, since that is the cause of a lot of their problems?
Erika
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Member:
Hannah
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Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 9:51 am:
I have looked for info about the Lamina Saver for a while here now, and looked through the articles concerning it, but I can not say that I am convinced..? Why is it that there is no contents list anywhere?
Does any of you have any actual experience with this supplement?
LOTS of money to spend on some form of placebo for worried horse owners
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 10:41 am:
Liv - I've fed two jars to Fox - saw no changes - I was also disconcerted about not having an ingredients list.
Cheryl
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New Member:
Judynv
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Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 11:19 am:
I tried LaminaSaver on my horse about a month after he foundered. I saw no improvement at all. I called the company and asked for the ingredient list, they told me it was a proprietary formula and could not be given out.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 11:23 am:
Liv, I have used the Laminasaver and thought at the time(his first episode of laminitis) that it really helped my gelding. However, after reading all the posts by Dr. O., I'm sure he would say the horse would have gotten better anyway. So, I'm undecided on it.
After reading all the info I could find on laminitis and on metabolic synDrOme, I changed Lil'Bit's diet to just grass hay. He does get a half pound of low carb, low sugar pellets with all kinds of minerals added in. I had to combine several different supplements to get the right balance for our area (low selenium, high iron, several minerals high and others very low in our soils and thus our hay.) I also added cinnamon. I think all of this has really helped him. But, maybe I am just duplicating what he would be getting in the Lamina Saver, if I used that again. I've wondered about this.
Lil'Bit can't go to pasture anymore. On cool mornings I do let him out in a run that has a little grass he can nibble on for an hour or so. He has lost weight, shed his winter coat, and feels so good that he runs and bucks and is quite a handful when being lunged. In fact, he is feeling so good we are going back to riding him.
I did keep him on bute for a long time for the pain. A few days after putting pads on his feet I was able to cut back to one bute tablet a day. He started on on three/day. I also had x-rays done of his feet, and keep him barefoot with frequent trims to keep his angles right.
I was leary of keeping him on the bute for so long, but thinking about it, it is an anti-inflamatory. All in all, it was a long haul for my gelding. He would have "bad days" for several months after showing signs of progress.
Oh, and while he had active inflamation and showed signs of pain, he was kept in a deeply bedded stall with some turnout in a soft sand arena to prevent any concussion on his feet.
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Member:
Hannah
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Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 2:45 am:
When Masai is in his stall he keeps digging his toes down in the deep shavings.. So he is clearly saying that he wants his heels to be higher? And I on the other hand, keep trying to lower his heels.. What is wrong here? Any thoughts on this?
Ans does anyone know how long it takes for the founder to "settle" or to get to a point where it does not get any worse at least? After 1-2 months of stable confinement and meds, would you think that he has reached this point?
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 3:42 am:
Founder will stabilise when you remove the factors that caused it along with the factors that maintain or worsen it. No time estimation can be given, Liv.
However, reading your posts again and again, I am not quite persuaded that founder is Massai's problem.
In the first case, 4 years ago, the problem was corrected with just padding his soles with cotton until they healed. Founder? Hmmmm...
They told you that the x-rays showed some rotation and some sinking, yet the horse enjoys standing on his toes. Did you actually ever see these x-rays? Coffin bone rotation and sinking is very easy to see. Did you see it? As I can't tell you how many times I've seen horses diagnosed with founder when bruising in both front hooves was the problem, I'd love to see these x-rays.
You say that Massai has very tender soles, that they feel thin and soft to finger pressure and that he is known to "stumble" when stepping on pebbles. A horse needs nothing more to be in great pain, collecting bruises with every little pebble he steps on, and he will try to relieve the pain by standing on his toes in his stall.
You say you trim him yourself, being careful not to overdo his heels. Why do them at all? Can it be that you brought very sensitive heels too close to the ground and now they're all blue inside? Are his thin soles flat, just to make things worse? Can you post pictures of his hooves?
You also mention "separations in his lamellae" which you treat with formaldehyde. What exactly do you mean? Again, can you post pictures showing this condition?
Last but not least, what does a good farrier say about Massai's hooves?
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Member:
Hannah
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Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 4:28 am:
Wow, I would love nothing more than to blame this entire thing on something other than founder, but sadly I do not think that is the case.. But it is certainly worth to explore further. I will get the pictures (an the x-rays) for you all to give an opinion on if you would like to. That would be great
Masai have been seen to by the best barefoottrimmer in Norway, luckily he lives only half an hour from us. I have since been upkeeping his work. We also have a woman who is educated in the strasser trim in our stable who oversee that I do not screw up totally. Several of the horses here are 100% successfully barefoot, so there should be nothing wrong with the method as such.
The last time Masai was shoed by a farrier was 3 months ago, when I decided to try shoes out for a while just to see it there would be significant improvement from his barefoot stage. We had Hippoflex shoes glued on with vettec. He was better for a while, but became very lame the last few days of the 2 week period. Note that he was not lame when we put on the shoes. I would have let him have the shoes on for longer than two weeks had it not been for the sudden lameness.. I naturally thought that it was the shoes itself that caused it.. Anyway, the farrier was pleased with the way Masais hooves looked, they were much sounder than 1 1/2 year earlier when we pulled off his iron shoes for good.
How can a horse have rotation and sinking if he has not foundered? I do not get that.. And his heels are not very low, they are just as low as I dare to make them, and that is still very much higher than would be normal. His hairline is almost horizontal, or was, at least until I managed to get his heels down somewhat. I would estimate them to about 5cm. (2 being normal in the strasser method..) So they are not low-low..
But.. I will get you the pictures! Thanks for taking an interest
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 10:40 am:
It is possible to get rotation and lamellar separation without a horse having founder. Horses whose toes are left overlong develop rotation from the extra force exerted on the laminae from the long toe. Photos of the feet and the radiographs may well help differentiate the various problems.
One correction to Chris's thoughts above is that the founder will resolve shortly once the exciting cause is removed. This is true in mild chronic cases, but not in some acute causes. The damage is done to the laminae, say a septic event or grain overload causes a founder, but then the initiating event leaves. The damaged and weakened laminae creates ongoing inflammation and perhaps even tearing from the normal forces and therefore can greatly prolong the pain and severity. Because of all these variables the length of time a horse remains painful varies from a few days to many months. It definitely is true if the exciting cause is not removed, the pain will continue and sometimes founders started by one thing may be further exacerbated by other contributing factors that were not causing trouble before the initiating event.
DrO
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 12:31 pm:
Thanks for the clarification, DrO.
By "stabilise" I do not mean it will resolve. I mean it won't get worse. Again, only if one removes the factors that caused it and whatever factors maintain or worsen it.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 1:30 pm:
Liv, with every post of yours I'd bet more and more that it's just sensitive soles. (British:stubborn, US:Bonehead). Even if there's some slight delamination or bruise in the laminae, it can very well be because of the unsupporting soles. Let me attempt to explain the vicious circle of sensitive sole:
Let's start with the soles thin but sound, say first day out of some extended rest in deep shavings. Horse is perfectly sound until he hits the first pebbles. Sole bruising occurs. Back to his stable he goes, all in pain. You try different soaks, only to soften a sole that is too soft already. You try shoeing him, which raises the sole from the ground and he feels a bit better. The bruises resolve. But when he trots the sole is too thin to support the bone and bruising in the laminae occurs, even some slight delamination. You remove the shoes and he is somehow relieved after a few days. But then you go out again and sole bruising is on for another round.
Or let's start with your example above: The horse is relatively sound barefoot, has somewhat started to improve his thin soles, but then you want to see how he'll do with shoes. His sole is lifted off the ground and starts to weaken. Then he hits the odd big pebble and the first circle begins.
You need to break this circle. You can shoe him with a full pad or some vettec compound, filling the sole flush with the ground, but that will be relieving the symptoms, not curing the cause. It will make the sole even thinner and weaker, so you'll have to maintain that configuration for ever.
Or you can attempt to fix it for good. Dry and toughen the soles. While doing that, keep him on a hand walk only, so old bruises have a chance to resolve. Hooves need movement to function properly and grow healthy. Work will stimulate growth and will thicken/toughen the sole. As long as you can feel softness or springiness when you press the sole with your finger, stay at walk. Do not trot a horse when his soles feel soft to finger pressure. When it's not springy or soft anymore, tap it all over with the handle of a hoofknife. If he does not react, try 2min trot. If he's OK next day, do it again. And so on...
All this, of course, is not diagnosis or professional opinion. I am not a Vet or a professional farrier. This is just adding a suggestion to the discussion. However, I have been trimming and managing barefoot thoroughbreds on very unforgiving, rocky terrain. Call me crazy, but I used to breeze barefoot thoroughbreds on dirt roads where you wouldn't normally trot with shoes. And still, because they were toughened slowly and carefully, these notoriously thin and fragile hooves never gave a lame step.
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Member:
Hannah
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 1, 2006 - 4:09 am:
Hmmm, I see your point, and I agree with your reasoning. BUT, I am still however convinced that this is a case of founder. He has the typical ridges on the outside of his hooves, his toe flares out if I do not keep it short (than again his toe has always been like that..) And he is beginning to form a depression in the sole of his right foot. It is blue in color, and he is extra sensitive there. Having looked at numerous pictures, this looks like the the number one place for coffin bone penetration, if there should be any. He is also starting to get worse in the one front leg that initially was not as bad. This is weird since I believe I have removed his from the initial cause of him getting ill.. But if the cause is something else, I would not know.
And you are right in regards to me putting shoes on a (relatively) rideable barefoothorse. This just to clarify what the effects of shoes vs. no shoes would be on him. I believed I had struggled for a long enough time in getting him comfortable barefoot, and during a 1 1/2 year period still had not gotten there. I could ride him with boots most places, and I rode him barefoot when practising dressage on soft ground. But attempting to ride him barefoot anywhere else was never going to work. I was recommended I walk him for at least an hour every day on asphalt to toughen the soles and achieve maximum growth and blood supply. This helped in a matter of weeks, and had I continued doing this, there might have been a chance he had been able to get to a higher comfort level.. This said, my barefoottrimmer, who has studied under Pete Ramey, actually put shoes on my horse himself a year ago.. (!) He did this because he saw that Masai struggled, and additional problems like (You will have to excuse me not knowing the correct terms here)the bones in his heels have "grown together", it is apparently quite "normal".. But will result in him having to have somewhat higher heels than what would be optimal. He also has some problems with the joints in the fetlock. The fluids which is supposed to lubricate and absorbe shock has become very poor, so the bones "touch" and results in the joints becoming quite stiff after some time. I know there is a well known term for this in english, since it is a normal condition in humans as well, but I just can´t think of it.. I bought Masai 6 years ago, knowing all this before hand. He used to be competed in show jumping on hard surfaces, so I believe that might be the reason why.. Anyway, because of this I was told not to work him on hard surfaces. And to initiate sole/hoof-growth I was told to do exactly this. There became an apparent conflict between what to do and what not to do as you can see.. I have since searched for a middle-road to take, which might be beneficial to this poor horse who finds himself not quite fitting in one category alone.. That is why I experimented with plastic glue-on shoes and so on..
Pictures are coming tomorrow!
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Member:
Johnsonl
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 1, 2006 - 2:02 pm:
Hello,
I’ve been following the founder questions threads and wanted to share my experience with Buckeye, my 18 yr-old TB-cross. Some may remember that he foundered two years ago this past March for unexplained reasons. It was frustrating and heartbreaking, especially since as Dr. O says, the underlying cause(s) needs to be identified and corrected. It started as laminitis and quickly progressed to sinking, with an 8 and a 12 degree rotation in his front feet. He had sole bruising, but amazingly never abscessed. Thanks to a very knowledgeable farrier, he was stabilized and is doing very well. My farrier, Gary, shoed him on the front with the poured Equifane (spelling?) compound to make a solid bottom for his feet, giving him full support. He is trimmed, re-shod, and re-poured every five weeks (rolled back toe on the trim). This has been expensive. It’s also been challenging here in FL, during the rainy season, to keep a handle on thrush which will find its way under the poured material. Gary cuts a small groove in the bottom before the Equifane dries so I can treat with thrush medication as needed. But, though Buckeye would frolic in pasture, he still had the “eggshell” walk and short striding with head down a year after his founder whenever I would attempt to ride him, indicating he was not totally comfortable. My vet told me they’re as good as they’re going to get after a year so I had resigned myself to having my beautiful (and expensive!) pasture pet for the rest of his days. So sad not to ride him anymore, but I bought a beautiful 5 yr-old TWH after saving many pennies. He died of gas colic exactly 3 weeks and 2 days after he was shipped here. I recovered from that tragedy and now have wonderful coming-3-yr-old TWH. I’ve had him since just before Christmas last year. Meanwhile, my husband has been working with Buckeye doing Parelli ground work while I’ve been working with “Commander”. Guess what? Buckeye has sparked to life and we have been on trail with him 6 times now!! He loves to trot/canter, the whole nine yards! So, I say those of you on this site who told me to never give up hope: THANK YOU FOR YOUR ENCOURAGEMENT!! TURNS OUT YOU WERE RIGHT!! NEVER GIVE UP!!
But, I do want to stress that my farrier says Buckeye will need to be in the poured shoes for the rest of his life. Although his coffin angles are great now and he has great sole, Gary has seen people make the decision to pull off the shoes, and many times the horse begins sinking/rotating again and is right back where he started within a matter of a few months. He said it’s up to me, but I don’t want to roll the dice with my dear horse. I realize there are many different theories on treating a foundered horse’s feet, but all I know is what has worked miracles with Buckeye. I also have had him on Nu-Hoof supplement which has been fantastic. It’s also produced amazing results with a warmblood at the barn with huge hoof cracks almost to the coronary band! Buckeye is on a small amount a senior pellet feed, T&A hay, and Spiller’s Happy Hoof chaff, oil, and the Nu-hoof. He’s never looked better. (By the way, my farrier has always recommended turpentine to improve soles). The advice Gary has given me has worked, so I wanted to pass along my success story in hopes it may help someone else.
DON’T GIVE UP on your foundered horses, but be prepared for an expensive and life-long effort to keep them healthy. For me, they’re worth every single penny. (I’ve not eaten out or bought new clothes in over a year, nor had a vacation in over two years! But that’s okay!)
Lori J.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Jun 2, 2006 - 1:28 am:
Hoof rings and a bad bruise are not diagnostic of founder, Liv. Radiographs are.
It seems that you are dealing with a horse with very sensitive soles, contracted heels, long toe that breaks and opens the white line and a few bad bruises and cracks which are to be expected in this condition.
This condition can be very painful and needs to be addressed immediately, founder or not.
Changing a hoof's balance takes a long, methodical, educated approach and a few months at least. We'd all be very happy if there was a miraculous trim that would throw a hoof in balance in one day. Such a thing does not exist because the hoof needs to adjust and rebalance slowly, to come to a self sustained equilibrium. It won't start growing nice and straight and strong in one day.
Please, study and follow DrO's articles. Slowly and methodically, address these problems and fix them. I am confident you will find the procedure very rewarding and you will gain the knowledge and experience necessary to recognise and fix problems long before they give symptoms.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Jun 2, 2006 - 1:37 am:
It's really nice to hear Buckeye is back on the trails, Lori, thanks for the update!
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Member:
Hannah
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Posted on Friday, Jun 2, 2006 - 4:04 am:
I have talked to my Vet and he is giving me a renewed prescription for Quadrisol. I can not bear to see him in pain any longer. I will however keep him in his stall during this period, so as to not let him get overconfident when feeling no pain.
I have also arranged for an experienced farrier to come and have a look at him on wednesday next week. I will then show him some of the articles of DrO and hear what he has to say about them in regards to Masai. Maybe he´ll see something that I don´t.. Let´s hope so
Lori, I am so happy for you. It´s fantastic to hear about Buckeye and how he has pulled through. I have been so down lately, and so your success story could not have come at a better time. I realise the worth of an experienced farrier, and your post made me pick up the phone and call myself. Even though it might be just to have a look at Masai I´ll feel loads better knowing I´ve done something..
I almost felt like laughing/crying when I read about you not having bought cloths in over a year.. I´m exactly the same.. Who cares about what you look like when your horse is in need of something.. I have hurt my back during the last few months taping on styrofoam every day and spending all my day in the stable mucking to make sure he would never have to stand in any dirt.. But I still prioritised to have an equine massagetherapist come and give HIM a massage.. Jupp, that´s love alright
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Friday, Jun 2, 2006 - 5:25 pm:
Liv. I hope the farrier will be able to help Masai. I totally sympathize with your back problems. I live on Tylenol while my too stallions just had massages! And, as I type I'm washing horse wraps and sheets instead of the people clothes I should be washing!
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Member:
Hannah
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 8, 2006 - 5:19 pm:
So &%&/"# annoying.. (sorry) Had just written this long post on Masais progress over the last few days, and than I was about to press "post" and the entire thing disappeared.. I feel like screaming
Well, here is a short summary. Might be for the best really, maybe I can cut to the chase a bit quicker, not making you read all day..
Masai is loads better! I have followed Christos advice and have not soaked Masais feet since. And I have used formaldehyde every 3 days on his entire sole. The result, his feet are WAY harder, and he moves around a lot more, and not as stocky and careful as before.
Tomorrow my farrier is coming to show me some options for Masai. He has seen the x-rays at the clinic, and so he should know what are the issues.. He is experienced at least, being icelandic, and having worked for years in sweden and germany.
Yesterday I went to the stable late in the evening, wanting to take Masai for a quiet walk, since he prefers the cool in the evenings when made to move about. I opted to take him past this local track&field stadium where I then saw this three men flying a model airplane at great speed, making quite a bit of noise. Masai, having looked depressed for his entire illness, suddenly lid up like a flame! He became stiff as a board, arched his neck and snorted while doing this piaffe on the spot The guys on the stadium completely lost track of their plane, and it went straight into a nearby building and crashlanded behind it in some very unexcessable bushes.. Needless to say, I grabbed my very happy and agitated horse and split the very second.
Masai has been a different horse ever since this.. Today he had some spark back in his eyes, and he actually looked mischievous at some point! And I am loving it!
This other horse (a PRE) has been showing early signs of laminitis the last few days, and so these two are put together in a paddock for a while. And today is Masais first time being on a 24h turnout. The temperature is almost 30 degrees celsius during the day, and so he should be comfortable enough during the night as well.
Hopefully this other horse will fare better than mine since we caught it early (If it actually IS founder my horse is suffering from.. A bit more uncertain now..) At least I can be of some help to this other horses owner, telling her what my experiences were..
Soo, this was the gist of my "lost" post I think.. Oh, the pictures.. I will get some tomorrow before the farrier comes so I have something to compare with in the future. I will of course post them here as well.
Our best regards,
Liv & Masai, whom have finally noticed it being summer (suddenly) and now actually have the peace of mind enough to try enjoy it somewhat.
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 8, 2006 - 8:09 pm:
Liv,
When I want to post more than a few sentences I always write on word first, saving every once in a while. Then I copy and paste to this site. I too have had my message evaporate when I hit post. This technique has really helped my peace of mind.
What an fabulous image....model plane enthusiasts entranced by the magical pride of a horse flying whilst stationary. I'm delighted for you that Masai has regained his lively spark.
When a horse has no feet we have no horse, only frustration, sorrow and concern. Your diligence is impressive.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 10, 2006 - 5:04 am:
It is really nice to hear he is better, Liv. I hope he's totally sound soon.
Please, do pay attention to Sara's post. Protect your back! A supporting belt is the most valuable tool in a barn.
Do observe your farrier's position, where his feet are placed and how he lifts and holds the horse's leg, then try to imitate it while he corrects your posture. It takes a lot of practice and guidance to do it correctly.
Most of us learned through struggle, strain and pain. Please, don't follow our lead !
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