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HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis » Founder & Laminitis an Overview »

	Discussion on Wild horses and founder
Author	Message
Member: Christos	Posted on Wednesday, Jun 21, 2006 - 7:36 pm: Do wild horses founder on lush spring grass? Any studies?
Member: Ajudson1	Posted on Wednesday, Jun 21, 2006 - 9:24 pm: I doubt it. They graze all winter on what they can find. Graze as the lush spring grass comes up, and most likely ease their systems into it, whereas we wait for the grass to grow, wait for the soft ground to harden, and then when the grass is 6-8 inches tall, we put them on it. Slowly and carefully because they are not used to it like the wild horses. Just my thoughts on it. Did you go to the www.safergrass.org site? There may be something on there...I didn't read it all yet.
Member: Jockyrdg	Posted on Wednesday, Jun 21, 2006 - 9:48 pm: Dr. Sue Mcdonald of Upenn runs a semi-feral herd of ponies which live out year round. She has run the herd for 11 years and does not have any problems with grass founder or colic. Her site has more info and contact information. https://www3.vet.upenn.edu/labs/equinebehavior/
Member: Christos	Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 5:25 am: Thanks, Angie and Beverly. Actually this safegrass concept is the reason I am asking. I find it misleading, kind of missing the horse for a grass blade. Yes, grain and lush grass is a good way to induce founder to an out of shape horse. Should that make us analyse the grass or should it make us reconsider the horse's condition? This, of course, is a very delicate subject. Nobody wants to think that his horse is not in the best condition possible. After all, we do take care of them better than our own selves. What the heck more can we do? We all know most horsepeople are overhorsed. Horses are beautiful. Especially big, powerful ones and ponies. It is very easy to be lured into owning one without realising its needs in exercise. More often than not, it is the big, powerful beauty and the cute pony in the pasture that will founder badly. Because these are the ones that will get the less use. Let's face it, horses are not designed to work for 1 hour a day and be stalled for the rest or to stroll lazily around a pasture. They are athletes. They need lots of movement. If they're not in a herd where the interaction makes them move, we have to provide that exercise. The horse that gets adequate exercise is very difficult to founder from food. I have seen racehorses and showjumpers being fed 24 lbs of oats a day. I have fed my horses 20 lbs of oats a day and free choice clover for a whole summer. They are turned out on fresh clover in spring, when full work resumes. Their muscle is hard and hungry. It will use all the energy it can get. And their hooves are stone hard. Even if there is a little upset, a little too much starch or sugar here and there, it is not even enough to be noticed, let alone destroy strong hooves. I do not suggest that anybody should feed 20 lbs of oats at home. This is pushing things a bit far. But I do suggest that our free time is usually too little to care for a horse's needs in exercise. We should consider this seriously when planning to own a horse. Sharing a horse with 2 or 3 people is a good idea. Buying a less athletic horse who will not kill you in the first hour so it is easier to exercise 2-3 hours a day is also good. Founder has become too popular. Because owning a horse that is barely used has become popular. Trying to make a social companion out of a natural born athlete by reducing his eagerness to exercise and his food intake is trying to change nature. An impossible balance to achieve, a difficult project indeed.
Member: Jockyrdg	Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 6:44 am: Hmm, Christos, Your reply touches not only on health concerns but emotional and political ones as well. I'm sure the replies will be numerous as several hot buttons were pushed. Nutrionaly, oats are a pound a quart so I assume, since the equine stomach has been shown to handle about 4 quarts in volume per feeding that this is broken down into 4-5 feedings - not every barn has a set up to be that intense in the feeding program. Not every geographic location can afford acres of pasture to roam around in. In NJ, acreage in our area is 60-75,000 an acre, at that price a lot of horses end up on an acre- it sure doesn't give the same exercise as tooling around a 20 acre field. I deal with a number of geriatric cases which can't be in hard fit work and don't move around a lot in the field. I deal with cushing horses where founder is disease related and we are seeing more of this as so many horses are living into their late twenties- early thrities. Only allowing horses to people who would work them hard and regularly is unrealistic in the states and detrimental to our whole horse community. It would reduce the number of available barns, reduce the number of available vets, reduce agricultural funding for pasture improvements and research, reduce medical research for equines, the list goes on and on. In order to support these animals people are working 40+ hour weeks and commuting, sometimes an hour to get to their horse. Where's the time to exercise every day? I see the vet bills these people pay and it supports the vets getting better equipment which in turn reminds the medical research community to keep investigating equine problems because there is profit there. I don't know if constant hard work and pasture 24/7 is the answer to founder, but it is not a reality for 100% of the equine population; therefore, I think research into the problems that we have is beneficial and it's a bit harsh to condemn those that can't work their horse to a fair -the-well.
Member: Christos	Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 8:00 am: You are right, Beverly, absolutely right. I have to work for a living myself, and land is no cheaper in Greece. Keeping our horse in top condition is extremely difficult nowadays and many times beyond our best efforts. It is close to impossible to maintain it in our own time, strength and budget alone. That's exactly what I am saying, share! Don't quit horses, invite people to ride for free when you can not, it is better for the horse. Get everybody involved. Keeping one horse per person (sometimes three or four) because this supports barns, vets, equine research, the breeding industry and the horse community is...well, wrong ! Community means getting together, sharing, working together. Not paying out of your nose to support a wrong idea. I am sick of teaching people to ride for free, on my own horses and expenses and as soon as they learn how to post the trot and which end of the horse to feed, they buy one horse each and they think they'll do something special with it. I am sick of seeing magnificent horses who can not trot 10 km and have never been galloped. I am sick of hearing that 18 and 20yo horses are too old to work. There are 18yo in international competition, you know. This is not suggesting that plenty of work will eliminate founder or any other disease. I am only saying that lack of exercise is the main ailment in our days and choosing to ignore this is very often the beginning of a great unpleasant adventure. And I am not referring to really geriatric or ill horses who require special management. I am referring to the many thousands of healthy, young horses who only need more exercise. Of course, you don't need to bring that horse to racing condition. That's shooting over the opposite end. But couldn't it be that just one more hour of exercise a day will minimise yours and his problems ?
Member: Scooter	Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 8:40 am: I have to agree with Christos, im my younger day my horses free roamed a 100 acre pasture with no problems. I rode from sun up to sun down then. Now they have to be locked on a smaller pasture and their diet watched, because I am a leisurely rider instead. My troubles with founder started when their exercise was reduced significantly. I do think they can be managed with diet, but it has to be monitored carefully. Their weight kept in check. I think it is easier to ride more, which I have started doing. No problems with founder this year because of that I am sure.
Member: Ajudson1	Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 10:12 am: Sounds to me we have the same situation with horses as we do with people. We are still eating like we did when we worked sun up to sun down. Only then it was physical labor, not sitting in front of our computers, or whatever. We have what, 100,000's choices for food at the supermarket, but how much of it is really FOOD? I think we are seeing horses going down the same road health wise as we are. Too much rich food, too much of the wrong kind of food, and too little exercise. And we have a vicious circle going here. We pamper our horses (me too) with too much food. We don't want to over work them, for fear they will break down early, which they may from their environment and life style. So instead of getting stronger, they just get weaker, not necessarily each horse, but each generation. I thought the stuff on safergrass.org did make sense though........why are we feeding horses like cattle?? We are not trying to fatten up our horses for slaughter or to produce milk. Yet we are feeding them like that, and/or like they are going on 100 mile endurance rides, weekly! And another of my pet peeves is mankind trying to always change everything instead of leaving it as nature intended it to be. Like having soils that are selenium deficient, isn't that from over fertilizing our land? So there we have the need to give our horses man made supplelments. Geeesh....however did horses live all those years on just grass???? and why is it mustangs were (are?) considered so hardy? Thanks Christo for you views.....I have to really rethink why I have 4 horses and am exhausted trying to train/ride all of them when no one else in the family is riding at this time. (I keep hoping my daughter will ride...and she will on the right horse, and hoping my husband will soon try riding again...as soon as I have his horse trail ready) Your comments made me feel selfish for owning so many. Of course the other side of the coin is...at least I know they are cared for with me. And if I sell them.....who knows? I guess I should start moving the horses around the pasture every day for exercise....but I'll have to use the ATV, I sure can't jog that long, but I could use the exercise.....Hmmmm...I see a new goal here....for me and the horses, LOL!!!
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 10:22 am: There is already a possible scientific explanation for the observations of above: increasing insulin resistance that is likely to occur in under worked, overfed horses. One of the current important theories of a initiating cause of founder is what is now described as metabolic synDrOme in horses which is largely a type 2 diabetes (insulin resistance) and a very easy keeping horse. While I have not seen research in horses in humans type 2 diabetes is associated with inactivity and obesity. DrO
Member: Jojo15	Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 11:14 am: I think i have been staving off founder/lam/ and related diseeases in my easy keeping FAT horse...underworked and over priviledged in some eyes... She is out 24/7 runs when she feels like it, worked 2 times a week, and well, that is how it is... She is 25 and well taken care of. Sharing her is NOT an option. did that when we were younger, i had more than my share of who did, who didn't, lame, overridden, undercared, bad care, nonsense when others were given the chance for a free ride. Sorry you feel the way you do christos, maybe you should take a break from teaching and giving as its not giving you any pleasure, but comments above sound like they are from being jaded... There is no easy side to this coin. and being judgemental about it only makes you feel better, and others worse. People will do what they think is best for their horse. Some are proactive ( i hope i am), and some are reactive...and then get into trouble with diseases... To each their own. And no one should feel guilty or selfish for owning horses...
Member: Shirl	Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 11:56 am: Hey Friends, I don't think Christos meant to be judgemental, just stating an opinion from his own experience. I believe what he is saying is true in many ways. I too own a 15 year old Arab, and after experienceing the loss of my dear Sierra from Laminitis, Cushings, brought on by I.R. as Dr. O states can happen - I'm doing my best to guard against this happening again. Sedona isn't ridden as often as she should be, due to this D*&% heat, my back conditions and lack of time. But--her diet is tight, she has a large run, is turned out to roam the property 5 nights out of 7 and walked when I can't ride. My biggest problem is trying to explain to the barn owner that she CAN NOT be fed like her huge quarter horses, who by the way don't get exercised either. Try explaining that a handful of sweet feed is a handful too much, or a couple carrots not necessary. Some people just don't get it. I think we all do the best we can for our horses and us, and it's okay that we all have our own ideas as long as we don't push them on to others. JMO - not critizing anyone, just hoping for a long life for Sedona, who I need in my life right now with lots of stress due to son who needs a heart transplant. Thanks for listening. Best to all, Shirl
Member: Juliem	Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 1:26 pm: While you're absolutely right that most domestic horses don't get enough exercise, you're overlooking the factor that tips the scales to founder--over feeding! Not all case of founder result from over feeding the wrong or too much food, but the vast majority in this country do. I live in Idaho and the wild horses on the range here must be on the move to get a mouthful of grass, let alone 15 to 20 pounds. That is the case in most of the west. Our pastures, on the other hand, are such that our horses can stand in one place and eat several mouthfuls and easily consume 8 to 10 pounds in an hour. When a horse is overweight it is simply more prone to founder. Many breeds are more resistant--especially thoroughbreds--to grass and grain founder, while others breeds, the "easy keepers" are at greater risk. Leaving any horse full time on lush pasture to the point they become overweight is putting that animal in the cross hairs for laminitis and founder. Add lack of exercise to the mix and they are even more vulnerable. A horse probably won't founder from lack of exercise alone unless it's overfed--whether it be grain, grass or even rich hay. It's very similar to the epidemic in this country of type 2 diabetes in humans. The contributing factors are too many carbs, not enough exercise and genetics.
Member: Djws	Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 3:55 pm: I met Ginger Kathrens in Wyoming last year (she's the wonderful woman that does the TV documentaries on CLOUD and other wild horses). She explained that wild horses usually don't founder because they move almost 25 miles per day while grazing. THAT'S exercise! I, again, am a new horse owner. My guy is alone (no other horses) and I only have him to exercise, groom, feed and pamper. My problem is I am just beginning to ride after 35 years of being away from riding and horses. It is difficult for me to give him the exercise that he needs, mainly because I am not a skilled rider. I am trying to learn (from tapes and books) how to lunge line him. He had foundered or had laminitis before I got him. He had a bout of it last October (got him in August). I have taken a lot of weight off of him through managing his feed. He gets NO grain because he is not worked enough. Today, I called my vet to schedule testing for sugar and thyroid levels. Soon, I will have him x-rayed to see if he has any rotation from his past episodes (he is in beautiful shape for a retired race horse (pacer-harness) and has no damage to his legs, etc. and no lameness. When I had his feet trimmed a month ago, the farrier told me that the white line (from last fall episode)in his hoof was almost gone and we were moving in the right direction. He does not have shoes on. I do not know anyone that can help me with this horse. I am too old for 4-H groups (LOL) and the track people I know have no interest in a pleasure horse. I buy books and tapes, read EVERYTHING on HA and go from there. The closet place to where I live to take lessons is 2 hours away. I have come a long way with my horse sense in the past 10 months. My horse has taught me many things. I am adamant about his weight and when and if he gets turned out. The barn owner (where the horse was born and owner has never ridden) likes to turn him out because he feels sorry for him being in the dry paddock. Last night, I forwarded the safergrasses.org site to him. This man has taught me a lot and I have been a bit intimidated to challenge his beliefs or advice. After becoming a member of HA and reading many books and magazines, I am better equipped to stand up to him. With all of the studies and new findings, some of his old beliefs are starting to change. I have no plans to show this horse nor will he ever see a track again. I want him to stay healthy and sound. The crest and thickness in his neck is gone, he dappled this spring (1st time in years) and he probably only needs 50 more pounds off of his current weight. Our grass is lush and green. He is an absolute pig when he is on the grass. He doesn't want to run, buck, roll or anything else. He just eats continuously. How much hay should I be giving him a day? He has a round bale that is available to him at all times (WHICH HE IGNORES-it's not good hay). I have bales of alfalfa/timothy mixture-the last cutting of the year. He has a mineral block and a salt block at his disposal. I do give him 1/2 cup of calf manner per day. The more I read, the more distressed I become. I don't ever want to see him with a re-occurance. He is fine to ride, a bit stubborn or perhaps lazy at times. I ride with a dressage saddle and a Bitless Bridle. I do have a 60 foot round pen. I am learning to make him work harder and my seat is improving (meaning I don't fall off-LOL). If I rode him and just walked, how long would be enough for adequate exercise? I can do this everyday. He will trot, pace, etc.-I am the one that can't do it for extended lengths of time. I AM trying and I care about this horse. We've been good for each other and I want to do the right things for him. (Biv is 13 years old and has been OTT for 3 years). Shirl, I will keep you and your son in my prayers. I have a friend that had a heart transplant. He is doing well. My best to you and your's.
Member: Christos	Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 4:07 pm: That's the way I live, Joj, and I never regretted it. It does give me great pleasure. And nobody owes me no favour. In the same way I served these people well, they served me and my horses well. Without them realising, but it's all the same to me. It is just a great pity to see such potential in horses and horsepeople going to waste because of the owning my own horse idea which is in many -not all- cases wrong. And you are right, the way my example of top condition horses is presented sounds like I do it right and you do it wrong. It is not so. That was just describing one season when things fell in place, for the sake of describing the exact opposite of common beliefs and practices. I do not think I will do it again, for the obvious reason that it is pushing things a bit too far. I'm actually having the same problems I am describing now. Not exactly now, but as of next year. I'll have two very strong horses in my hands and nobody else to ride them. None is really suitable for beginners and if my wife can't ride with me (we're planning not to) my only option is to pony one off the other on trails to keep them in shape. But land is not cheap and I am not sure I will find suitable property next to trails within my budget. I may, after all, have to give one of them away.
Member: Shirl	Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 4:13 pm: DJ Thank you! And it sounds to me like you are well ahead of the game in caring for your horse. Watch the grass, and you are smart to not give grain. Generally I think to keep weight where it is on a horse, they say feed 2% of body weight. Someone else or Dr. O will verify or correct that. You are to be admired for your determination in taking good care of your horse, having tests done, etc. Easier to prevent than cure, trust me! Take good care and keep us posted. Others will chime in and answer other questions. Shirl
Member: Canter	Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 4:16 pm: DJ, you are aware of the issues and conscientiously addressing them...I think that's half the battle. It would be a shame if you worried so much that it ruined the horse experience for you, after all, you bought the horse to enjoy him. That being said, I think all of us on HA can relate to being a bit neurotic about our horses. One of the things I do to exercise my mare when I can't or don't have time to tack up & ride is to "play" with her. Basically, I just free lunge after warming her up at the walk. We both get a good work out doing this. Perhaps you could add this to your program until your riding muscles get stronger. Just make sure that your horse is very respectful as he plays. There's a lovely lady at my barn who is scared to death of her little QH gelding and he knows it. She watched me free lunge once or twice & tried it herself and he ran all over her - the horse is boss. But, if you have the alpha relationship with your horse, try it some time. My mare enjoys it - it's a break from our normal training routine. Do you trail ride with your horse? If so, are there hills around? Going up & down hills will surely improve your horses condition. Educating yourself on good care is the best thing you can do for your horse...you're already doing it.
Member: Kthorse	Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 7:55 pm: I think , I know what Christos means , please interupt if I am wrong. There are so many people who take a few lessons like it and buy a horse or two, the horse sits in a barn untill the owner feels like riding. I grew up where everyone was a horse person and rode almost daily that was life, we had cattle and sheep etc etc. Now where I live I know a few people they are lucky to ride 2 or 3 times a month and wonder why after a 6 hour ride the horse has problems. There are people who like most of us who live and breath them. Then there are others that like the fact of owning a horse and expects the barn or what ever to care for them and do most of the work untill they feel like having a ride. I dont think people on this site are like that. Why would we sit here and try and learn as much as we can about them? Because we are horse people who live and breath them and everything about our lives revolves around them. I am very lucky , I can ride 5 days a week and I do because I love the way my horse looks compaired to the others, not everyone is able to do this, but we do everything possible to keep our horses healthy, but like I said there is a difference between a horse person and someone who just owns a horse. Forgive me if I am wrong Christos
Member: Erika	Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 8:14 pm: DJ, good job on educating yourself as much as you are. You obviously care a lot for you lucky horse. I, too, have a no grain policy unless horses are working hard, which like Christos says, isn't often enough. I did sell one of my three year olds recently for just that reason. Christos, I know what you are saying, we don't do them justice to let them stand around and young horses need a lot of riding consistently to become what they will. I was exhausted from trying to keep both of them learning and exercised. Not to mention the two older horses I own. I often invite friends to come and ride with me on my horses because it's the only way to keep everyone going. But, yes, anyone who "gets into it" ends up buying their own horse. As to foundering on year round pasture, it certainly can happen. My horses are out 24/7 in all weather and my mare had a couple of fall laminitis episodes years ago before I knew what conditions to watch out for. Modern wild horses usually live on pretty sparse land without rich grass so they have to forage far and wide. If the land was that rich, a rancher would use it for cattle fattening or other farming.
Member: Shirl	Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 8:29 pm: Kristina, Very well put! Shirl
Member: Christos	Posted on Friday, Jun 23, 2006 - 2:10 am: Katrina, it is difficult to define who is a horsepeson and who is not. Why do that, anyway? How many hours each person can ride or be with horses depends on how much life allows. There are bigger priorities than horses, and the fact that some of us are free of them at the moment does not mean much. What I mean is that I believe a horse needs 15 hours of walk per week to have a strong base. If someone can add 10 hours of trot, it makes that base a lot stronger. And so on. And yes, you can cut exercise and consequently nutrition back, but only so much. You do reach a point where the horse is so soft from lack of exercise that he will be injured with one little sprint on the pasture, that a small stone will send him back in the stall for a week or two, that he will colic or founder from ridiculously small amounts of food. Many people do not realise that their horses have reached that point. They believe that perhaps with a hoof ointment, high tec food, expensive treatments and a few supplements life will be good again. I certainly hope it will, for the horse's and the person's sake. But I wouldn't hold my breath.
Member: Paardex	Posted on Friday, Jun 23, 2006 - 4:54 am: Though I totally agree with the fact our horses get to much food and to little exercise I would like to ad one other point: After a divorce last year I ended up in Normandie[from Holland] with 2 horses much to big and difficult to handle alone.I would problably have sold at least the mare[biggest problem] had I found a good home.I would still sell/give her to someone with more use for her. People like that are at least hard and maybe almost impossible to find[believe me I tried on other occassions] I bought a little Arab because I was feeling sorry for her and said to myself 'a quiet companion will help me keep the others in line'[nice way to excuse yourself for doing something you want isn't it?] After that a neighbour brought me his Arab cross mare[divorce so not much time for her] At the moment I live [very happy by the way] with 4 horses 6,5 ha[about 19 acres] and guess what I struggle to keep them from obesity. I tried to get peop[le to ride them with me : doesnt work to difficult for the everyday pleasure rider over here. I hold on to one thing which another neighbour told me, she arrived from Haiti with an7 year old orphaned girl an the neighbour [alone a bit old for such a 'project'and according to herself not the most talented mother] said : It will always be better then a Haitian orphanage. So As soon as I find someone who works my horses well or gives them better conditions I will act but until then they will be from time to time to fat and not 100% trained. Jos
Member: Ajudson1	Posted on Friday, Jun 23, 2006 - 9:42 am: jos, You echo what I feel exactly. I have 2 of my 4 horses I know I should sell. And I have advertised them, but the folks that have looked at them....sigh....I just want the right match for the horse. I feel an obligation that my horses go to a good home. My husband says it's silly to care what happens once they are gone, but I do care. I also wish they'd go to someone who rode the heck outa them, loved them completely, and fed them well. But being I am only lacking on the "riding like heck", they will be with me for some time yet I guess.
Member: Jojo15	Posted on Friday, Jun 23, 2006 - 10:32 am: Angie, your husband has a point. Hard lesson. But reality. I had to do it first hand. and its hard. But, If you feel you have to get rid of 2 to make the other 2 better, than so be it. Believe me, i had a horse for over 8 years that i just didn't want to go here, or there, or whatever, and finally i just had to say enough... And while i was keeping her on pasture, what good was she doing, this horse is exactly like christos describes. It needed to work. Have a job in life. With me it would only be a pal. So she had to go. I brought her home, and she just tore up my property, boredom. And that is finally what prompted me to make a move. Otherwise i might have jostled with the issues even now...
Member: Paardex	Posted on Friday, Jun 23, 2006 - 11:21 am: I like Angie can't rid my mind of what happens after they leave me. I ve seen them too often totally wrecked up emotionally not comprehending what had happened to them even though I thought I had found a good home[friends have had the same experiences] You should understand the horses I keep with me are all in one way or another 'problemcases' the other ones go happily to another home[they happy me happy and the new owners happy] So I keep struggling with not enough work though their stables and paddocks are arranged in a way they dont[seem to me] to get bored. Jos
Member: Banthony	Posted on Friday, Jun 23, 2006 - 11:38 am: DJ, I looked up Calf Manna and it looks like it is high in carbs. We have Buckeye brand feeds available here. We tried their product called Gro'N Win on our obese mare. It is a grass balancer that is low starch and low in calories. It is a pellet and it give them some little thing to eat and is good for them. Although they recommend feeding Buckeye Grass Plus with it. The Grass Plus is a product I use on Rumor. I discontinued it for awhile because he was on so many supplements for his founder, but he started eating dirt so I put him back on it. I don't know if you have Buckye available in your area. Gro'N Win is kind of expensive - $22/bag, but you use so little. The other thing I feed my horse is Happy Hoof made by Spillers. Again, I don't know if you would have it available. It is a chopped feed for laminitic or laminitic prone horses. https://www.spillers-feeds.com/product_page_happyhoof.htm Linseed oil is from flax seeds so it is an Omega 3 oil. Corn oil is an Omega 6. The key is to balance the two kinds of fats. Generally horses are on too high an Omega 6 and not enough Omega 3. The most economical thing for us is corn oil and ground flax. I looked up the hay soaking article and it says you need to soak hay for 60 minutes in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water to reduce carbs by about 31%. It says that can make a dramatic difference in a laminitic prone horse. It is all back to not feeding horses like dairy cattle unless they have the calory demand of an athlete or lactating mare. As for the muzzle - I think there was a discussion on muzzles recently. Our mare sulks but she will bob and try to get some grass. For overweight horses hay is quite a quandray. Horses by nature are supposed to be grazers. It is how their digestive system is set up and it is what makes them psychologically happy. Horses have a weak stomach lining and strong stomach acid - perfect for a grazing animal. Food is supposed to be going in and getting digested almost continuously. No wonder why so many horses are getting ulcers. In nature horses move continually and graze on many different kinds of forages. In spring wild horses will often forage on very lush pastures and grasses with seed heads (essentially grain.) But they aren't in a confined space and the pasture condition constantly changes. To keep a grazing animal healthy in domestication seems to me to be the challenge that so many of us are having a hard time with. As this discussion has so aptly pointed out - the balance of exercise and calorie (carbohydrate) intake. I always think that free choice hay/pasture is always the healthiest. But I also know that doing that with an overweight horse is really difficult.
Member: Erika	Posted on Friday, Jun 23, 2006 - 1:02 pm: Friends, as I said, I just sold one of my "precious" horses. I am thrilled that the lady who bought her is a very experienced horseman, former foxhunter, who wanted to find her "last horse". I am so relieved that Rolex will have an excellent home for life. It was scarey, though, because people who called on her were looking for lesson horses (hard life, I think, with what end...?), or they sounded like numbskulls. But luck would have it that the first lady to come was the right match. My advice for selling is to make your horse as valuable as you can, i.e. register him with all eligible registries--many don't require pedigrees: PHR, AWS, AWR, among others, including color and performance registries. Spring for a month of professional training if he's rusty or green. All these will make it more attractive to serious horse people. There are many email groups that are horse related that often let you post ads. Also look for clubs like Pony Club, or Hunt Clubs in your area so that your horse is advertised to horse people, not just "Grandma wants to buy Junior a horse". And last, don't forget to add "To approved home only", so that you have an out if you smell a rat!! I am relieved to be down one horse, and very happy that she has a good home where she'll be busy. Best of luck to all to your horses to find wonderful homes! Erika
Member: Canter	Posted on Friday, Jun 23, 2006 - 1:28 pm: To add to Erika's suggestions when you sell a horse, I have added to the contract the right of first refusal if the new owner wanted to later sell the horse. When I retired my first horse, I spent a long time looking for just the right home for him (he had soundness issues, needed light work but could no longer stand up to hard training - I was heartbroken). I made everyone that looked at him completely aware of his issues and when I found the right person, I made up a contract that was pretty strict. Fortunately, the new owner was local and I was (still am) able to check up on the horse to make sure he always looks happy and healthy (my friends joked that I was stalking him). My main concern was that I never wanted him sold for slaughter - I never could have forgiven myself - so I gave the new owner an "out" - I get the chance to buy him back before she tries to sell him to anyone else. Also, be careful of the internet. I had a lady interested in buying the same gelding - she saw the ad on one of the .com sales sights. We conversed back & forth and though she lived about 500 miles away, I told her I wanted to visit the property before I shipped the horse. She suddenly lost interest and though it cost me a few more months to find the new home for him, I was fine with it. This gelding was my first horse, he took good care of me and I truly believe that I owed him the best home I could find for him. I would do no less for my mare or for one of my house pets.
Member: Ajudson1	Posted on Friday, Jun 23, 2006 - 1:48 pm: Ladies, It looks like Christos got us off on another tanget here, LOL! Thanks for all your comments though. It's weird, it only took me a year to decide to put our wonderful Fancy in the ground after her knee blew out, but the idea of selling any of my horses causes me YEARS of agonizing. I have 3 younger ones, all who should be trained and going well by now. An older one I don't enjoy and would need a special home, etc. Fran, could you possibly email a better description what you put in your contract when you sold your horse? I know nothing about contracts for selling a horse. Thanks, 2bri4j@dsnet.us
Member: Canter	Posted on Friday, Jun 23, 2006 - 4:03 pm: Angie, I have e-mailed the contract. Please let me know if you don't get it. Fran
Member: Djws	Posted on Friday, Jun 23, 2006 - 8:28 pm: Linda- Vet was here twice today to draw blood. He will phone the results to me on Monday afternoon. He was very pleased with Biv's appearance. He thinks his weight is perfect (YES!) and that he is walking fine. Told me to keep up the good work and, of course, that pleased me. He told me to D/C the calf manna and the equine mineral block because he doesn't need it. I am to get a red salt/mineral block instead of the white salt. Biv is allowed one hour of grazing in the morning, one flake of hay in AM and PM, and he suggested I soak it in water (overnight for AM and through the day for the PM feeding). He also wants me to ride him an hour a day (which I will). He feels we will be able to maintain his weight with this program. If I observe that he is getting thin (doubt it), I may increase his hay (and vice versa if he gains). He has no problem with him having full access to the round bale (I can't tell you what kind of hay it is-it's not very green). He suggested TOP OFF or TIZ WHIZ instead of the calf manna (lower in carbs?-I need to research) I am going to see if our feed store stock those or, the Buckeye and Gro'N Win. Everything he told me is what everyone with HA and Dr. O had written and advised first. You guys are the best! He thought I was well informed and asked good questions (because of the info from HA)! I gave HA members ALL of the credit. I was happy that he could physically see Biv and give me his opinion on a visual inspection. I am hoping to take a good picture of Biv this weekend and will post it. I am so proud of him that I could bust! Naturally, things could change with the results of the blood tests. I will strive to be diligent with his diet and, becoming a better rider so that he gets what he needs from me. He certainly gives me more than I deserve! Thanks for your help and support!
Member: Djws	Posted on Friday, Jun 23, 2006 - 11:08 pm: Fran- When you say "free lunge", do you mean me standing in the center of the round pen and having my horse work around the pen without a line attached to him? I did that once and it was not pretty. When he decided he didn't want to work any longer, he took control. He ruled, and took the upper hand (and my breath)! This was several months ago when I was still intimidated and nervous. He charged me and I ran. Have you ever seen a 52 year old woman run and roll under the bottom rail of a round pen at a high rate of speed? Good! I was hoping no one saw me! I think I could accomplish it now. Do you think HE'D remember our "circus day" and do it again because he got away with it the first time? What do I do if he does? These are some of the issues I am unsure of. They don't tell you on the tapes etc., how to react when you are wetting your pants in these situations! (Guess I should wear Depends, just in case-LOL). I have not left the paddock or round pen while riding. I am beginning to feel confident enough to do so. I want to wait a few more weeks before I venture too far. I probably have a false sense of security in the confines of the round pen??? I use a Bitless Bridle and currently feel that I have ample control and feel of my horse. I need to strengthen my legs more, that's for sure! We are 2 miles from a beautiful reservoir/state park that has horse trails. My goal is to ride there before winter arrives! I would however, feel better if I had someone to ride with me. It has taken me so long to overcome my initial fears and to become the "leader". This horse literally walked all over me because I allowed it. He knew I was a nervous wreck and had great fun pushing all of my buttons. The situation was one where I could have gotten hurt until I stepped up and said "no more". I don't want to go off the property until I feel as secure up in my stirrups as I do on the ground with him. I have spent hours upon hours on ground work...now I need to do the same with my riding. I want it to be a good experience, not a bad one...I worry about that. Perhaps when I stop worrying, I'll be ready. We don't have any hills on the property where I ride. There are lovely places to ride with hills an hour from my home. I'll get there eventually. He trailers well so, that's a plus! Now if I can only learn to back the trailer up-LOL! Gosh, each time I get over one (horse) hurdle, there's another! Makes me get out of bed everyday with gusto because another challenge awaits me. My horse has made me feel like a kid again...now if my body would co-operate and buy into my mental attitude, we'd be off and running! I am having the best time of my life-even though it seems to be taking forever! Oh, well! I can't think of anything I'd rather be doing.
Member: Ajudson1	Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 9:55 am: DJ, Depends and sprinting, huh? And gymnastics also, LOL!!! Too bad no one got that on tape!! I am 7 years younger than you, and for me it's Advil, some rub like Ben Gay,and extra padding in my boots!! I am hoping one day to bounce right out of bed and go right to the barn, but it seems to take an hour or 2 to feel like every muscle is awake. Keep having fun, be safe, and best of luck.
Member: Mrose	Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 11:18 am: Now ladies, don't get started on the old age stuff! I have a hard enough time not moaning and groaning every a.m. My husband and I both sit with our first cup of coffee like a couple of zombies until it's "kicked in." I notice that once I make it out to the barn and start feeding/cleaning etc. I start to come alive. Think of all the women you know who are your age and are inactive and the shape they are in. I think our horses really help to keep us "young" and in pretty good shape...at least for the shape we're in!
Member: Djws	Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 11:32 am: ANGIE, I would like to have the money I could have won on "America's Funniest Home Videos"-LOL! I laugh about it now, then, I was petrified. I use those Ben Gay stick on patches-they last 8 hours and they stay on quite well. See what you have to look forward to in 7 years?...you need CONTINUOUS pain relief! My muscles OR mind aren't awake in the morning until I hit the gate to the pasture. As soon as I hear Biv nicker, I'm in high gear. I look forward to the mornings' now...I was NEVER an AM person before (took me until noon to get it together). Even on the weekends I get up early. Funny how these critters change one's life. Thanks for the encouragement! SARA- So true! I am in better physcial shape than I've been in a long while. Whoever knew that pushing a wheelbarrel full of manure through 8 inches on snow would help with that flab that begins to sag on your upper arm? Or that unloading truckloads of hay by yourself would allow you to sweat off that 5 pounds you gained from the quart of ice cream you pigged out on the night before? Or how your back muscles develop (and ache) from the bags of feed you hoist on your thighs, then up one more level into the feed bin while trying to find the darn string that opens the bag? Or how nicely your legs take shape again from running around the pasture, checking for groundhog holes, looking for fly masks, chasing a plastic bag because it's driving your horse crazy, etc. AND, I think my tush is also gaining an uplift-up and down posting, bending over to clean his feet, even putting my feet in the stirrups to mount seem to be hardening those muscles that have been retired to sitting for a long time! I wish I could find one more horse chore that would help my waist go back to some definition instead of straight up and down! (LOL-long and hard)! I notice the mental change the most...I am completely, totally, HAPPY! Everyone always tried to tell me my attitude (what attitude?) was because I've been single for so long and that I "needed a man" in my life. Like A MAN would transform my life??? I am rather independent and always scoffed at those comments! NOW, I have THE love of my life...a HORSE that: tracks mud on my clean floors, slops water all over the place, doesn't pick up after himself, pees on the floor, interrupts my thoughts, hates to hear the cell phone ring, scratches his butt, demands two full meals a day, passes gas whenever he wants (walks away innocently), pouts like a child, is very jealous when someone has my attention besides him, rubs his runny nose on my sleeve, hogs the fan when the temperatures are soaring, flaps his lower lip when he is frustarted/impatient, eats an apple and leaves ME the core, ignores me if I am so much as 15 minutes late, gets upset when we run out of hot water, expects me to wait on him hand and foot because he is the Lord and Master, stands and watches me while I work MY tail off, acts like I weigh 400 pounds when I sit on him, always wants to go HIS way, ETC., ETC., ETC...all the things I didn't like or ever want in my life again with a man. Can you believe it? I fell head over heels...at first sight. Thank God he can't find the remote!
Member: Erika	Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 11:59 am: Hey, I am the oldest bag in my kickboxing class, too, but it makes me proud! Horses are definitely more fun, though. I haven't dove under any fences lately--but I have done weird and wild jumping jacks to scare off a charging horse! DJ, in all seriousness though, don't be afraid to try the round pen sans lead rope again. If you think about it, the rope does nothing to keep the horse away from you. Uh oh, I don't want to frighten you out of lungeing! Do you have a friend who hikes? Maybe a person on foot with you when you leave the comfort of the paddock would help. Sorry Christos, as usual we end up off topic..
Member: Djws	Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 12:50 pm: Erika- I think I will try again this afternoon. Maybe I should wear my riding helmut and running shoes this time! I will remember the jumping jacks if I get into trouble-THAT should be another Kodak moment-LOL! I don't have a friend that hikes (or rides) that lives closer than 600 miles to my home. I was always busy with work and the kids so...didn't have much time for friendships or relationships. Since my youngest went off to school, I have become friends with 2 very nice ladies (mothers of his school mates) that are horse people. One lives in Florida, the other in Virginia! Just my luck! You know what? My cousin walks four miles a day and is also wonderful with horses...I will have to ask him to accompany me when I am ready. Thanks for that suggestion, it's a great one! You just made my day! CHRISTOS, Perhaps you are used to loquacious women that wander off the trail.... I, too, apologize for interrupting your topic. I am SO excited to find people to talk "horse" with, and, I am forgetting my manners. I still would like to see a picture of what a "wisp" is if you could post one.
Member: Warwick	Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 4:58 pm: Sara, I know EXACTLY how you feel! My back is totally screwed and I basically have to roll out of bed each morning but somehow once I reach the barn and start feeding, etc, the aches diminish until I sit down at the end of the day and all of a sudden - major "ouch!". We have recently installed a hot tub and boy, oh, boy - why didn't we buy it 10 years ago! Sue
Member: Ajudson1	Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 5:42 pm: Ah, so it just isn't me who has to get up, have tea in front of Dell with my HA friends, then I start my daily chores? As much as I want to ride early in the morning, it's usually later morning (or evening) before all the muscles and joints say "we're ready to roll now". Is there anyone on this site, female, under 40? Under 30? Sue, if you weren't so far away, I'd be bugging you to have a hot tub party for HA members!!
Member: Mrose	Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 9:18 pm: DJ - when you are lounging do you use a whip? With the exception of a "chosen few" I use a lounge whip when lounging. No, I don't beat on them, though I've been tempted a time or two. It becomes an extention of my arm and on untrained horses it helps to keep them from coming in to me. It also acts as a deterrent to those that might try charging. Also, re: the whisp - the British Pony Club manual has a picture of one. At least the older copies did. It looks like a braid of straw doubled back on itself to me. And, I know what you mean about the waist. My husband says I need to incorporate aerobics into my routine; I thought posting was aerobic. Mostly all the barn work makes me hungry, unless it's too hot to eat. I mostly love what the barn and the horses do for my mind. I become transformed from a grumpy, tense, woman who is caught up in family and business problems, into a happy, peaceful, up-beat person. Wasn't it Will Rogers who said the outside of a horse was good for the inside of a man? He should have said "woman." Actually, it's good for anyone, imo. Sue..a hot top sounds great!! I'll bring the wine.
Member: Djws	Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 11:35 pm: Sara- Yes, I do use a lounge whip and a Dually halter. I couldn't throw a rope/lariat behind the horse (like they show in the tapes) fast enough...hence the whip! I have never touched Biv with the whip. I, too, use it as an extension of my arm. I tap the ground with it and raise it in front of him if he tries to change direction without my asking for it. When he charged me, I was so startled, I just DrOpped it and fled! Talk about "flight animals"-LOL! I suppose he knew that I wouldn't hit him because, he MEANT business. That is the most aggression he's displayed and, the last time. Embarrassingly, I had to ask someone to remove him from the round pen for me and return him to the paddock. I was a wreck. After this episode I spent the rest of the day with him and, he behaved like a lamb. Odd? I will search the internet for a picture of the wisp...my curiosity piques me. Love the quote from Will Rogers! I bet we all relate to that! Me too, Sue! A nice Merlot....?
Member: Shirl	Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 1:45 am: Sara I can relate so much to how our feelings change once we get in "horseland mode". I can be all tied in knots mentally, physically and any other "ally" you can think of and once with my horse at the barn, it's like someone flipped a switch. They do wonderful things for us and to us. Cheers, Shirl
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 9:13 am: In the interest of promoting a sense of community we have a link that brings up your fellow members by a number of parameters you can set. However when members join the default is to hide their profile. We suggest that you adjust your profile to information you are comfortable with and turn on profile sharing. Putting in your horse management information really helps the community. For more on using your profile securely see, News & Help » What is My Profile and why would I want to edit it? The link to search for members is at, Member's Services members_only » Get to Know Your Fellow Members. DrO
Member: Mrose	Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 10:30 am: DJ - a large animal charging towards you can be very intimidating! I've only had it happen twice. I once had a gelding who twice tried to charge into me. On a trainer's advice, I used a 25 or 30 foot soft cotton rope, about 2" thick. I put a loop in one end and put the rope over his girth area, right behind the elbow, and ran the loose end through the loop and between his front legs and up through the ring of his halter. Then, I lounged him as usual using the rope instead of the lounge line. I was working him in very soft sand, also. When he tried his charging trick, I jerked hard on the rope and amazingly to us both, he hit the ground. The surprise in his eyes was something! He never tried charging again. I wouldn't try this unless you feel pretty confident in what you are doing. Our gray stallion was pretty "hepped up" during his second breeding season. I was lounging him in the arena and he kept trying to go down to the end of the arena so he could get closer to the mares in the field. He got really mad at me because I wouldn't let him, but kept making him work. He put his ears back and charged at me, but I stood my ground, growled loudly, and cracked the whip at him. He went back into his circle with no more problems. Of course I knew this guy very well, and was 99 and 9/10ths sure he was bluffing; even so, it was un-nerving. Thank goodness he's grown up into a gentlemen and doesn't try stuff like that anymore!
Member: Canter	Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 11:54 am: DJ, When I free lunge, I do it in the indoor arena as my barn doesn't have a round pen, but I don't think it makes much of a difference. The advantage of the round pen is they are usually smaller so YOU don't have to work as hard. It's sounds as if you are laying down the right foundation for your horse. But again, when I free lunge, it's more of a "break" from training (but getting some excercise in) vs. actually teaching my horse anything. All I ask is respect from my mare. I do hold a whip to point her in the right direction and get her moving if she gets lazy, but rarely need it. So, for example, I'll get her moving around me, changing direction a few times, just to make sure she's listening, and then we start to play. I'll let her stop and approach me and then I'll "jump" at her and make a loud noise. She'll round out her neck, flag her tail and trot around me a few times. Often, I'll run along with her (and I'm using "run" loosely as after one circuit I'm huffing & puffing and ready to call a paramedic). It's almost a game of tag, or similar to how horses might play together in a pasture - I don't always keep her on the outside. She's allowed to approach when I let her. Even though this is a well behaved horse and we are playing, I always watch her hind end. She's never kicked at me, but I'm still watchful. Really, it's just a way to get her worked without the effort of a saddle. It sounds as if you are well started on gaining your horses respect with all the ground work you've done. If you decide to free lunge, walk into that arena or pen with a no-nonsense attitude and see how he's listening first and then start to play. (...and just to make you feel better, I had to throw a chair at a friends horse once because he was about to run me over. That horse was a beast and after that particular incident, I refused to lunge that horse for her. But he had respect issues all the way around. So I can relate to having a stroke when 1,000 pounds of determination is barreling down on you!)
Member: Christos	Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 3:33 am: No problem at all with veering off topic, DJ. I do not have any horses or tools with me right now, I left them in Holland for the summer. I'll try to make a drawing on how to make a wisp (please, do note that its benefits, if any, may not be worth the trouble).
Member: Banthony	Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 3:30 pm: DJ, A big congratulations on your good vet progress report on Biv. You are doing better than you thought! Your reports of Biv and his personality were very funny and all too familiar. I have had Rumor 11 years. I didn't get him to do a specific thing - just to be a companion until death us do part. I did ride him for quite a few years, but he has been retired for the last few. I still see him and cater to his needs several times a day as I work on the farm where he is boarded. He is just as demanding as he ever was. But I do have his number as we know each other too well.
Member: Djws	Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 4:55 pm: Linda, Sara, Fran, Everybody- Well, I did it! I mustered all of my courage and returned to the round pen with Biv, with a lounge whip in hand (considered taking a chair with me, Fran). I exhibited extreme confidence and acted like I knew what I was doing (acted is the key word here folks). It worked. I'm not sure my behavior fooled him, but he never made one aggressive move towards me. I worked him both ways and did my "whoas", etc. It was exciting! He kept an ear on me the entire time. When I was finished, I called him to me and he came, licking and chewing. You would have thought my face would split in two from my smile. Instead of running and rolling under the bottom rail, I wanted to jump up and down and scream "We did it!" I gave him a few pats and walked back to the barn and.... THEN, I tacked him up and we rode-all over the property! Walk, trot, pace(didn't ask for the pace though). I wore my helmet, opened the gate while on top (he's good about that) and had a terrific time. It was FANTASTIC! When urging him to trot, he did try to buck me a few times. Normally, that would have been the end of our ride. Instead, I insisted that he go forward (and I think I yelled, "Quit" at him)...he was trying me and I didn't allow it. The rest was bliss. After our workout (and I mean OUR-my legs are sore today!), I gave him a full bath with no assistance-that's a first too! This was the first time he has worked up a sweat from MY riding him! That's okay, I worked up a sweat bathing him. Yep! I was nervous about that too! He doesn't like water and is not patient with being in the crossties. He was a pussycat. I truly believe that Biv had as much fun as I did! I think I gained some respect from him today. (I admit that the round pen work settled him down for the ride-perhaps took the edge off for both of us). I was so emotionally high last night that I couldn't sleep. The above accomplishments may not seem like much to all the seasoned riders out there. To me, it was paramount. Actually, I am sure that you've all felt the same at one time or another. No matter the age, circumstances or qualms...we all start from the bottom up (and hopefully don't end up on our bottoms). Right? Because of your advice, support and wisdom, I got up the nerve to go a few steps further. Why? Because I wasn't alone...I had you guys rooting me on. That made a tremendous difference. I may not have anyone physically present, but I remembered all that I've read here (tried to) and then, just did it! I thank you from the bottom of my heart, and so does Biv. Yesterday was a major milestone for us. I have not heard the results from the blood tests yet. I am committed to regulating his diet and giving him daily exercise (now that I conquered the fear and insecurity of lounging and riding) or whatever it takes to keep him healthy. I did post a picture of him on my profile. Take a look and let me know what you think! Christos, looking forward to your drawings-is there anything you can't do? I can't draw a stick figure! I am on the way to the barn! I was geared for another ride, but it is going to storm. I have also surpassed that life long fear - all because of this horse! (BTW...how do I find the thread from Tim (horses struck by lightning-I want to see how he and his mare are doing). THANK YOU FOR BEING THERE!
Member: Shirl	Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 5:11 pm: Dear DJ, Sounds to me like you did everything right and you are to be congratulated! Scared or not, you let him know who is the BOSS. Keep up the good work, you both will enjoy life from now on. Shirl
Member: Hwood	Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 5:25 pm: Congrats, DJ . . . I can feel your smile and your swelling confidence . . . Good for you.
Member: Erika	Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 5:29 pm: Woo hoo!! Great, DJ! You sound like such a nice person, I'm sure you'll find plenty of friends--horsy and otherwise--when you get out on the trails and roads. People like to talk to folks on horseback, you know. Erika
Member: Kthorse	Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 5:51 pm: DJ I am so excited for you. I know how you feel. If I have a bad day with my horse I just feel rotten. When I have a day with improvement no matter how small I am grinning all day. Way to go! Big improvement! Katrina
Member: Sunny66	Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 6:24 pm: Congratulations DJ, I just read this thread... What a huge accomplishment! Be proud of yourself, you have every reason to be and more Your horse is gorgeous...have fun with him!!
Member: Ajudson1	Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 6:41 pm: Alright DJ....great news for the 2 of you!!!
Member: Warwick	Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 8:13 pm: Have been watching this thread, DJ. Congrats to you!
Member: Frances	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 6:37 am: Brilliant, DJ! You did it! Lynn
Member: Christos	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 7:15 am: Congratulations, DJ, absolutely excellent! You brought memories of times when I'd wear a full motocross outfit to enter some stalls. Robocop, no kidding. I still do not know if the resulting insomnia was because of joy from accomplishing the task or pure adrenaline that didn't settle for a couple of days. It is now very funny to hear people say that horses can smell your fear or hear your heartbeat. Luckily enough, they can only see your posture. Act it right and they'll buy it, as simple as that. And a tip from those days of fear and horror: If you're not proficient enough with the whip, enter that pen with a garden hose in full water pressure. It does tame even the most difficult cases and it requires no skill to aim it.
Member: Mrose	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 11:52 am: Great!! Sounds like you've gained your needed respect and crossed a threshhold. Good for you!
Member: Djws	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 5:15 pm: Thanks to everyone! It is so nice to have the support, encouragement and compliments. Believe it or not, I am still in high gear from Sunday! I don't know if I am imagining this, but I think Biv and I are even closer now. He seems "lower keyed", more respectful, just plain easier to be with. Has been licking and chewing since Sunday and stretching his neck out and showing his teeth. I think the L & C is good, correct? What is this new neck thing? See picture. Does that signify anything? I have never seen him do this before. Afterwards, he wants his ears rubbed. (NOW, he's not head butting me to get it done). Couldn't ride last night because of lightning (never got the rain). I spent a few hours doing barn work, grooming, just hanging out with him. I hated to leave. This morning, it was the same...I turned him out for his NEW 1 hour and 15 minutes of pasture time (per the vet). I called to him and he came straight to the barn...didn't have to go and get him. He even stopped and waited while I shut the gate. Usually he would give me the "business" and an evil eye! Everything seems so different. Today. Perhaps horses are like children. They need someone to tell them "no" and to be the boss. I was always afraid he wouldn't like me if I took the upper hand. Now, I know how wrong I was. I didn't have to be mean, just firm. I didn't have to stand quaking in my boots, just stand up straight and be brave. WOW! What a thrill! Couldn't have done it without you. Seriously. Aileen-I think he's handsome, too. Erika L-I have had more contact with new people (for pleasure/not business) than I have had in years just from joining this site. I hope I will make some friends when I expand my riding to the trails. I need "horse" friends...everybody in my life at this moment think I've gone off the deep end. They don't understand the passion. Christos-I LOVE the hose idea. Poor Biv doesn't like being bathed much, hence, he avoids the hose. I bet I could just take a hose, not connected to a water source, and he would avoid me! I will keep the suggestion in mind (if the need arises again). A horse can't sense your fear or nervousness?
Member: Kthorse	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 5:43 pm: picture is too cute. My sisters pony did this after worming, then when you would laugh he would do it again, yes just like a child. Horse's are just so wonderful arnt they. The pleasure they give is way worth the frustration when things go wrong. I am so happy for you. Katrina
Member: Christos	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 6:08 pm: Horses can only see our fear or nervousness, DJ. They see it in our hesitant, non confident, choppy movements. Play cool and confident and they can't sense a thing!
Member: Canter	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 7:26 pm: DJ, I am absolutely thrilled for you! I can completely relate to the nerves as well as to the triumph of overcoming and dealing with your fears. You are to be congratulated on taking a big step in gaining the trust, confidence & respect of your horse. Keep up the great work and you will see that the "highs" will keep coming!...But remember too that the silly creatures will sometimes surprise us and be naughty again, so don't lose confidence if it happens. It happens to everyone, but you will soon find that it happens less and less.
Member: Frances	Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 8:52 am: Hi DJ, What your horse is doing in the photo is exhibiting the "flehmen" response. Curling the upper lip back like this is thought to allow the sensitive membranes inside the lips and nostrils to "smell". Many horses do this when they come across an unusual smell or feed for the first time, or detect pheromones (sex hormones) released into the air. Perhaps he's becoming EXTRA fond of you!
Member: Banthony	Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 10:11 am: DJ, I think you're in luuuuuv! A serious consequence of horse ownership when all perspective of normal priorities in life go haywire. And all your non-horsey friends think your nuts!
Member: Annes	Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 1:19 pm: DJ - Biv is absolutely beautiful. Have you ever heard the saying - "the outside of a horse is good for the inside of a person"? I know you will agree. My TB does the lip thing also - when he gets in the pond to play and splash around and, like LL said, whenever he smells something different. All three of mine do it when wormed. I, like you, do not have any friends that are into horses and they think I am nuts to prefer horses to shopping and other things. They keep me young (I am 55) and active. I've had horses for 16 years and it is like discovering them all over again when I read the excitement in your posts. I am so happy for you in your adventures with Biv and I am sure he knows how lucky he is to have you too.
Member: Dwinans	Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 3:02 pm: Christos, To take us back to your topic of how much exercise a horse needs, I am very happy to hear your opinion that it is a good idea to share a horse. For mainly financial reasons I found somebody to share my horse with me. Initially I was concerned that he may be getting overworked but for the past 8 months he has been very happy and relaxed. We are conscious to make sure we don't jump him two days in a row and during the summer he only gets out once per day. But during the winter she rides him in the morning and I ride at night. This has worked perfectly for both the financial budget and the time budget. Now I am very happy to hear confirmation that it working out fitness-wise for him. Thanks Christos!
Member: Christos	Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 7:34 am: Dawn, there are many benefits in sharing a horse, beyond the obvious financial ones and the need to exercise. Even each one having his own horse and switching from time to time for a day or two is very beneficial. It is good for the horses to work with another person and it is also very good for the riders to work with each other's horse and exchange points of view.

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