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Discussion on Foundered 8 years ago, new changes in last 8 months...
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New Member:
Stomperx
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Posted on Friday, Jun 23, 2006 - 9:23 pm:
Hi Dr. O.
I wrote several weeks ago under the arthritis section. I have the 16 year old saddlebred that summersaulted in Febuary.
I would like to post some xrays to get your opinion. This may actually be why he fell. I have had a hard time convincing everyone that since his fall, he has not been quite right on his front end, but it was hard to describe what i felt when i rode him, and our focus was mainly on diagnosing his back end injuries from his fall. everyones opinion is, "this is as good as he gets", "hes a rescue, what do you expect?", "he'll never be normal" etc etc etc......
His initial founder was roughly 8 years ago, reason unknown. the rescue group that i adopted him from was told there was no rotation. I adopted him 3 years ago, and our first xrays showed rotation to be roughly 5 degrees in his right front, and 15 degrees in his left. when i got him, he was in plain steel shoes, with pads. the pads were removed due to a bad case of thrush.
we have xrayed every year, just to keep an eye on things. i keep him in plain alumninum shoes, with no pads, this helps me stay ahead of the thrush. the farrier usually did his feet every 6-8 weeks, but this past winter i started having them done every 5... we xrayed in oct 2005. vet says that his rf is at 0 and his left is at 5 degrees. this change in rotation is not due to any corrective shoeing, my farrier has just been following his feet. somewhere, someone (my vet or farrier) mentioned that he may be slightly club foot on his left.
our normal routine is lunge/warm up at walk/trot for 20 or so minutes, then ride at walk trot for 30-60 minutes. sometimes we do this 5-6 days a week, sometimes we won't work at all for a week.
our riding has been much less since feb.... but he is still willing to go. i feel that he is walking on his toes, almost like he is stabbing his toes first, and his front seems choppy? (we mainly ride in a sandy arena). he seems to drag all 4 feet (being lazy??) but it seems worse on his front end.
he was trained/shown saddleseat when he foundered. until we are told otherwise, we are going on the assumption the founder was mechanical... possibly due to shoeing and pads.
my vet and farrier are good, i value their judgement, and many people have told me that my horse should not be sound these last couple years.
i have researched, read everything etc.... the barefoot trims, mustang trims, the natural balance etc etc etc.....
anyways... my vet is consulting my farrier. she wants him to DrOp his heel and shorten/back? his toe, to get rid of the flare. he does have a high heel, probably/definitely contracted heel. he has no ground contact with his frog or the sole of his foot.
my questions are: is it too late to help this foot? would different shoes help or is there too much time passed since his founder? i won't say money is no object, but i am willing and able to follow through with corrective shoeing. i was still a novice when i got him, and listened to everyone who told me there was nothing that could be done to help him. i know that getting his heels less contracted will help with the thrush, but putting pads on him will make the thrush go crazy (i have tried EVERYTHING to get rid of it).
if we do any kind of corrective shoeing, will that cause him pain? hes kinda use to the way things are now, would changing this strain his ligaments and tendons causing pain?
my farrier is coming out monday morning for a "consultation", to look at the xrays and just watch how my horse moves at a walk and trot. i think he will do whatever we tell him, but he is one of the ones that have the attitude this foot will never be any better, so he may not be enthusiastic, and i have to admit to being cautious, after all, this is how the feet are after he has done them for three years.
i am attaching xrays and photos of his left front. xrays are from 10/05 and 6/06. photos are from 6/06.
i am sorry, after all that, my xray photos are too large to attach, i don't know how to make them smaller.....
thank you, val
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Friday, Jun 23, 2006 - 9:45 pm:
Definitely lower the heel . . . but over time. The toe doesn't look too long, but if it is rolled, it will help with breakover. There was a very recent thread (can't remember the title, but do a search) regarding a pony with rotation and very high heels. The difference, over time, was amazing, and the pony was made much more comfortable and was able to bear weight on his feet again. There are pictures associated with that thread that will help you make your decision.
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Member:
Stomperx
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Posted on Friday, Jun 23, 2006 - 9:51 pm:
hi, thanks Holly!! i have just hopefully gotten these xrays sized right....
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Friday, Jun 23, 2006 - 11:02 pm:
Holy cow, Valerie! I am no vet, but it looks to me like I would want to get the shoes off, roll the toe (even take a lot off) and gradually shorten the heels as Holly says. The upper wall is in line somewhat with the coffin bone, so it can grow out correctly with care.
I'd love to hear an expert opinion on this...Dr. O??
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 1:33 pm:
Holly and valerie,
I think this was the thread you were referring to.
Hope this helps,
Susan B.
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Member:
Stomperx
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 2:32 pm:
thanks Susan.
i really knew my guys foot wasn't right, but i meet with resistance and being treated as if i don't know anything, i've only been in the horse world for 3 1/2 years. compared to others 20-30 years.... all i have to go on is my gut instint and my guy trying to tell me something aint quite right. i also thought that i was doing right by him, he has been sound, i get "if it aint broke don't fix it" attitude....
he is the love of my life. i got a second chance at life after health issues, and he came to me, i like to think as a second chance (really a 15th chance), and he is the horse i waited my whole life for. i will do anything to keep him healthy, happy and comfortable. this is him a year ago... he hates the camera. thats his mean look! but he is just a big moosh.... he just destroyed the hay bale at his feet to show me how much he hates cameras!! this photo is proof that horses have moods and feelings! 
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 4:02 pm:
Hello valerie,
Something strange going on with the puter. Saw your sweet guy once and now can't get photo up. He is definitely worth fighting for. My guy is camera shy also and gives me these "feed me I'm starving looks".
I can relate to all the reading and research you are doing. Just wanted to post and article taken from Pete Ramey's site and it may or may not make sense to you.
https://www.hoofrehab.com/frogtrim.htm
This was not given to undermine Dr.O's advice, which is always excellent, but to maybe help you better understand what is going on with your horse's feet.
I had my geldings shoes pulled a month ago, so am doing the barefoot thing.
Keep asking and go with your gut instincts, you know this horse better than anyone.
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 9:36 am:
Hello Valerie,
Certainly many of the problems you describe are related to the conformation of the front feet and if I understand your post properly I disagree with your veterinarians assessment of the degree of rotation of the coffin bone in each of the radiographs above. He is apparently drawing a line from the proximal wall rather than looking at the distal wall or the relationship with the ground. I would calculate the difference of the measured angle of the bottom of the coffin bone with a more normal 6 degree tilt and call that the degree of rotation.
Here is the problem: is this rotation because of past founder or because of primary flexor contracture (ie club feet). The two will look similar at this point though the upright pasterns may tip the scales a bit to flexor contracture. If it is decided it is the former, much can be done to return these feet to normal. It it is the latter we are stuck with this.
You could try the derotation scheme in the article as it will support the heels and not over tax the flexors, if you go slow with open eyes. As you slowly lower the heel if at anytime the heel does not reach the ground you have reached the limit of the DDF stretch and back up with elevated pads.
If it is decided that this is not to be done I still would remove much of the bell in front if there is enough wall in the quarters and heels to hold on a shoe and support the foot, this alone will greatly improve the way this horse moves.
DrO
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Member:
Stomperx
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 10:07 am:
Hello Valerie,
Certainly many of the problems you describe are related to the conformation of the front feet and if I understand your post properly I disagree with your veterinarians assessment of the degree of rotation of the coffin bone in each of the radiographs above. He is apparently drawing a line from the proximal wall rather than looking at the distal wall or the relationship with the ground. I would calculate the difference of the measured angle of the bottom of the coffin bone with a more normal 6 degree tilt and call that the degree of rotation
Hi Dr. O. So you would estimate this to currently be a 6 degree rotation? my vet estimates it to be roughly 5.
Am i to understand that by looking at xrays and at the foot/leg itself, we will not be able to tell if it is the trim or the ddf? if it helps, i do have other photo angles of his leg and foot, including sole pics. he has held on shoes for the past three years without a problem.
is it possible that the trim is what could cause the club foot? could this be a case that the flexor contraction has increased in the last several months to do this?
how about the break over, or rocker shoes or any of the other corrective shoes? would they help or hinder? and with all the talk of the barefoot trims would that be an option?
i'm trying to understand your response, it didn't sound too promising.
val
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Member:
Stomperx
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 10:09 am:
i should add that my farrier is coming tomorrow morning for a consultation and possible trim. his last trim was may 31.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 7:26 am:
No I am not saying it is 6 degrees of rotation but by using the normal tilt of 4 to 6 degrees and subtracting the measured angle you can get a truer picture of the amount of rotation you have. And not the trim so much responsible as past founder vs DDF contracture. Though I lean toward the latter for the reasons given above.
If you have photos of the foot without the clubbiness along with the history might help. For more on how horses feet become clubby see, Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Club Foot. The particular shoeing technique is going to depend on the assessment of the foot and best determined by the farrier but my comments about removing the bell at the toe addresses my thoughts on how to best improve breakover. Horses with feet like this often are too thin in the sole at the toe to go barefoot.
DrO
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Member:
Stomperx
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 9:24 pm:
Hi Dr. O, and thanks for taking the time.
My visit this am with the farrier went about as well as i expected it. he was not too interested in the xray, at least not in how it showed bone placement so much as how cool it was that technology allows a person to print an xray out on her computer and its better than having to hold the "old fashioned" style xray up to the light.
his attitude is, is that there is no such thing as "derotation" or getting the bones into a better alignment. this is as good as this foot gets, and we should be more concerned with making him somfortable for his remaining days. He disagrees with lowering the heel, or even taking the toe back. says that he has done his share of "butchering and mutilating" horses in his career, hes been shoeing for 20-25 years. he got his start on the trotter race track, mainly standardbreds. says that early on in his career, some owner got a new horse, was supposed to be promising racer. had extremely long toe. the owner wanted the toe shorter, he cut it way back (all at one time) and the horse was dead lame, would not move, its racing days were over. said another time, owner had a new horse, wanted its heel DrOpped so the two feet matched. he DrOpped the heel (again i believe all at one time), the horse raced the next day, and ended up with major blown tendon. in a nutshell, he was telling me that owners don't know what should be done. a little knowledge is a dangerous thing....
he says that he doesn't really do corrective, doesn't believe my horses feet have improved in regards to the rotation, and that if we start DrOpping the heel, my horse will start growing a heel extremely fast, that the horse wants a long heel, or else why would he grow it?
says the only reason the toe is now flared is how the horse stands... with his right foot forward, left one back, keeping all his weight on his left toe and off his heel, hence the flared toe. when i asked, he said yeah, horse probably does have a seedy toe, but he wasn't too concerned. says the horses heel probably hurts too much to be weight bearing. when i mentioned his contracted heel, farrier said was because the tendon had pulled it up, that there would not be enough frog because its all recessed, but that we could use equipak?
when he first came this morning (to do other horses also) he had originally planned on starting on my horse. Then changed it to wednesday morning. I think he intends to DrOp the heel all at one time. when i tried to push him into committing to do it slowly, he was very non committal. i will cancel our wed. appointment and get a second opinion with a farrier that is supposed to be very good working with foundered horses.
as to the past hystory of this horse: i have a hard time believing he was originally club foot. maybe i am in denial about his whole situation. he is registered out of superb bloodlines. i actually have a book about saddlbreds that has his whole pedigree (almost) going back to the founding sires of the breed. i do know that some gene qualities the breeders like are connected to other genes that cannot be bred out...ie: the gene for personality is linked to the gene for swayback in saddlebreds, you can't get rid of one without the other. but the club footedness would be a very undesireable trait to have in a gaited saddlebred (think the racking etc). he was trained and shown as a racking saddleseat horse, he was also trained to drive. plus, he was supposed to be used as stud, with his bloodlines.... he was not gelded until nearly the age of 4, and only then because of his temperment, supposedly he was mean and nasty. i would hope they would not breed a genetic club foot?
i did once come in contact with one of his previous owners, she had him when he was about 5-6 years old. by this time he had been bought and sold and returned to his trainers barn roughly 8 or 9 times, reasons ranging from people being afraid of him, to him not being "enough horse". to the best of my memory, he did not have a club foot at the age of 5. i am attaching a photo of him in his stretched out pose, at the age of 5. unfortunately, it is taken from the right side, don't know if you can see his left foot well enough.
we know little about his next 8 years, i got him when he was 13. he had foundered at aprimately 8 years of age. those first 8 years were saddleseat.
when he was finally donated to the rescue group (about 30-60 days before i adopted him) he was down in weight by about 200 pounds. his owners were afraid of him, he was not ridden much by them.
at the time of his founder, we do not know what treatment he recieved. when he was donated, he was wearing plain, regular steel shoes, with thin pads (not wedge).
i will post another view of his legs, taken about a year ago. i don;t know if they will show you anything different from the very first photo... almost all photos i have of him are with the left leg back, the right forward.
the photo taken inside was a year ago, the one taken outside was this spring.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 10:20 pm:
Beautiful horse, Valerie! I love saddlebreds. What is his name/breeding, if you don't mind my asking?
Dr. O, I am confused by the description of the angles. Is 4-6 degrees "normal"? I too have dealt with past rotation issues, so I am trying to learn.
Erika
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 6:47 am:
I guess he believes this is due to flexor contracture which will not respond to lowering the heels. However I have seen dozens of horses derotated following founder episodes and we have many reports of it on these boards. I have to say his attitude does leave me nonplussed but if your problems are the result of flexor contracture, he will be mostly correct about this horse but his lack of attention to the flare in a tripping horse and the obvious lack of heel support, both evident in the radiographs, are areas that could be addressed in any case in my opinion. I will be interested to hear the second opinion and I want you to develop an open mind to both possibilities however. If you go doing remarkable heel lowering and their is no room for flexor stretching/relaxation you will have to nurse this foot back to its current conformation.
Erika, did you read the article associated with this discussion? It describes what I am talking about and has images.
DrO
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Member:
Stomperx
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 5:56 pm:
hi again Dr. O.
i am now in this crazy position of getting a second farrier opinion as reccommended by my vet. friends are telling me to get second opinion on the vet...... everyone has opinion on who the best farrier is.... my vet says the horse does NOT suffer from flexor contracture, that the deformation is result of founder from 8 years ago.
vet is rather shocked by farriers lack of concern over the toe of a horse that tripped....
help me!!!!
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Member:
Stomperx
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 6:38 am:
the farrier my vet (and everyone) reccommends for the second opinion will not come look at my horse or get involved simply because he is very good friends with my regular farrier. unbelievable.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 6:52 am:
Do you have a referral institution, like a veterinary school, close by. Perhaps you could trailer your horse to one and take your radiographs. Normally these places have excellent farrier support.
DrO
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 11:22 am:
Beautiful horse Valerie! Unfortunately the hardest thing about owning a horse is finding competent farriers and vets...I feel for you and wish you luck!
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 3:12 pm:
Dear Valerie, boy can I relate to your situation. I feel for you, if you have read any of my posts on Levi, you will know that we are in a similar boat. The hardest part is there are so many opinions or non-opinions, that it is frightening. You put professionals on guard when you question them, yet we have the best interest of our horse at heart.
Unfortunately making the wrong decision can put our horse back at square 1, or worse. Good Luck, I am following your post to help with my situation as well.
suz
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 4:40 pm:
I posted this elsewhere, but thought you might get a kick out of the solution that Levi & I finally resorted to!
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Member:
Stomperx
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 8:33 pm:
AHHHHH!!! SUSAN, i NEEDED that!!!!!
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Member:
Stomperx
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 10:58 pm:
wow, what a roller coaster. my regular farrier didn't want to do this trim. i cancelled my appointment with him for this morning. finally got call from the farrier my vet reccommended as a second opinion last night. he said no way, was not getting involved because he is friends with my regular farrier. i went to bed in tears.
this morning i went to the barn (i work there) and my regular farrier showed up right after feeding!!!! we talked more, he still doesn't believe that the p3 can be repositioned (in any horse), still is concerned about the tendon, but agrees the toe flare could go. we agreed to disagree. he ultimately does not want to be left feeling responsible if there is damage done to my horse, but if anyone is going to do anything, he would rather it be him. i wanted to smack him and hug him at the same time!
so he did the trim. i am going to try to post a picture showing before and after. my picture sizes are too big......
i can only pray this is not going to further injure him. he was sore while being worked on, and is still sore now. we are going to give him 1 gram bute/daily for the next couple days.
i contacted the rescue group i adopted him from, forwarded xrays for their vet/farrier. also a friend is taking xrays to her vet office. i'll have second and third opinions all the way around by the time i'm done! rescue farrier says that my regular farrier is the best there is, says my vet is great, and says that as long as my horse is in their hands i can do no better. my vet says the rescue farrier is even better than mine, but very hard to get.... so they can have their mutual admiration society... their confidence in each other really went a long way towards boosting mine.
the only conclusion i can come to, is that the farrier i called for a second opinion (the one that refused) must have called my regular farrier after we talked, and they maybe debated the pros and cons.....
all farriers involved agree that if this trim does not help, it will do no lasting damage, and my horse will return to the stage he was in yesterday. the only difference being how fast the heel will grow. they think in just a few weeks..... my farrier actually only took off a little bit more of the heel than he does with a normal trim. they also agree that he is dealing with a club foot, Dr. O, you were right again.
we put a pad on him, and filled the gap between the pad and sole with the gel (maybe equipak? the kind you use a caulk gun for?)
so now we wait. we will take new xrays, probably next week, once he has a chance to adjust. i'll get a copy and post.
Erika... His name is Chief Innovation. Since he was surrendered to the group, i am not able to have the actual registration papers due to privacy issues, but i did look him up on the saddlebred website (before you had to pay to do the pedigree). His blood lines include Innovative Maid, Bourbon Chief, Wing Commander and Glen Chief, owned by Mr. George Ford Morris etc...all the way back to Harrison Chief and the founding sires in the Chief family line, hence his name  i have the book "The Saddle Horse by Lance Phillips, and this blood line has been traced all the way back to the famous horse Justin Morgan. and i am sorry, if you get me started talking about my baby, i'll never quit. i waited my whole life for him, he is my first horse, and if you believe in powers bigger than us, then there were definitely forces at work, we were meant to be together, like sole mates, although he probably hates me right now. i clean stalls at my boarding barn to pay his board, i am usually lucky enough to spend 4-5 hours a day in his company while working, and after three years together, i am more in love with him than ever. he truley is the perfect horse.
so now we wait. i'm going to cry myself to sleep again, this was a very very strange day.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 11:15 pm:
Valerie, I am so glad your farrier had a change of heart. Good for him to give it more thought! It is hard to get people to think out of the box, but it sounds like he is willing... no wonder he got a good endorsement from the vet.
I, too could talk about horses all day. Interesting bloodlines. Not much in common with my Saddlebred mare, but I guess diversity is good. He is certainly a beauty. Lucky you to get him. Hope all goes well from here out.
Erika
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 11:16 pm:
Oh, PS, feet look much better after the trim IMHO.
Erika
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 6:34 am:
The feet do look better valerie, but if the horse is lame from the shoeing it suggests we may be doing something wrong. It is important to try and localize the lameness. The radiographs and the manner in which the heels were lowered suggest that soreness is coming from excessive thinning at the sole of the toe. It appears the farrier lowered the heels by cutting a wedge that extends from the heel to the toe. I spent years making horses sore by doing that. Instead a wedge taken from the heels to the quarters, then rotating the sole of the toe off the ground gives better results. On the other hand if the horse is landing flat on this it does suggest we have the room to improve this horses angles. See the article on derotation for pictures of this.
DrO
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Member:
Stomperx
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 7:04 am:
hi erika... don't kid yourself about your mares bloodlines! shes a saddlebred, they ALL came from the same stock!!!!! lol, for the people that care about those things, his pedigree is supposed to be impressive. for me, his heart, his soul,personality, patience and love, not to mention his looks, are what impresses me.
being a beginner, i did everything the "wrong" way when i came across him. i went by myself, he was the only horse i looked at, i did ride him but couldn't tell much from that except that he was a horse! (lol what do you look for???). he was a gift from the horse gods. his adoption fees, the cost of trailering him home, first month board, vet check with xrays, plus halter and lead line came to the exact penny of what i had saved. and when it comes down to it, this boy owns me more than the other way around. i'm HIS and he knows it.
was it winston churchill that said "there is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man"? it is true. after 3 years with him, i am still struck by his beauty, and if possible, i would be perfectly content to watch him munch grass all day.....
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Member:
Stomperx
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 7:40 am:
ok Dr. O.... now i have even more questions? are you saying he should NOT be sore during placement of the pads and in the couple of days following this trim? vets and farriers agreed that he will need a couple days to adjust, comparing it to a woman wearing high heels for years, then going barefoot suddenly. as a woman who did that very thing, that makes sense to me.
farrier said that his sole depth actually looks pretty good....? please remember that the xray was taken roughly 2/3 weeks after his trim, and this following a trim schedule of roughly every 4 weeks for 6+ months. in the past three years, he has only once been ouchy after a trim, i mentioned it to farrier, he said ok, probably too much sole trimed, and it never happened again.
i am probably more confused now than ever.... you offer hope, then counter that by saying "but if" its a club foot, then maybe offer hope again.... i know, i know..... there is absolutely nothing that you can guaruntee from your position, heck you only have a couple photos and my discription to base your opinion on. but everyone knows we would much rather go for the hopeful side!!!!!
as of last night, he was walking tentatively.. to be expected? not an example of how he will ultimately adjust? is there a timeframe to give him? say one day, 4 days, a week? if he is still sore after x amount of time? i could not tell if he was walking flat. when he would stand in his stall for eating, he still wanted to put his left foot back in his regular stance.... habit? or is that how he needs to stand? and he would lift that foot, holding it up more....
and if there is a chance to improve the angles, will that realistically improve his comfort and movement, or is that just so i can have pretty xrays to look at?
i hope i don't come across as too b%#&*^, but as you can imagine, i have gone from one exteme to the other in the last couple days, this has not been fun.
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Member:
Stomperx
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 7:46 am:
..one more question.... with this flexore contraction, club foot tendon. is it possible that something like this can be helped or eased by doing stretches and massages? pilates for horses? when my daughter was born, her legs were contracted folded to her chest from being breech ( i delivered her in that position). docs said with massages/stretches, she should return to normal within several months, it really only took a couple months. they do the stretches for all manor of accidents etc in people as standard therapy in rehabilitation.....
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Member:
Stomperx
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 10:24 am:
he still hurts this morning. he will walk off ok, sometimes good solid steps, sometimes more of a stiff legged walk. i want to say he is still toes stepping. the shifting sand/footing in the arena was harder for him, but on the other hand, outside firm footing and the flies get to him, and i don't want him to get carried away, too active. is stall rest appropriate? or should i start hand walking? making him move?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 6:58 am:
The reason you are growing more confused with my posts is that you try to find answers to your horses feet in them, when all I can do is tell you how to answer the questions you have. Do you see the difference?
Since I am not there all I can do is respond to the information you give me. When you started this post you believed that the horse was rotated by founder but during our exchange we have come to the conclusion, backed up by a recent statement of your farrier, that this is most likely flexor contracture. I have tried to explain repeatedly there is a difference in the treatment and prognosis of the 2 conditions: did you not understand this? I was a bit surprised after the farrier agreed that this was flexor contracture that derotation was still attempted but this still may workout, we will have to see.
Our likely this will work depends on how the derotation itself is done. My post above talks about the technique and should be reviewed. We have often derotated horses that instantly walked better valerie. These horses are having pain from pressure at the tip of the sole the pinched the corium between the toe bone and the ground, derotation by the technique I describe above removed that pinching. On the other hand simply removing a whole wedge often resulted in too much sole removal at the toe increasing the amount of pinch.
We will hope that the people who can actually view the horse are right and that a few days will allow the soreness from the change in soft tissue positions subside but while lame I would suggest not making him move other than light hand walking on soft ground and I would be using bute but you should follow the recommendations of your veterinarian and farrier. If they are different than this I would be glad to discuss it.
DrO
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Member:
Stomperx
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 11:21 am:
Hi again Dr. O.
you are right on all accounts: i am confused because i am trying to find the answers in your post, when you are in fact trying to tell me HOW to find the answer. there IS a big big difference between those two.
when i started this post, i did believe the rotation is due to founder, and at this point, i still believe the rotation is due to founder. i am willing to keep an open mind when it comes to a club foot.
before i go any further, please let me say that i am in more mental agony over this trim change than anyone else, the vet, the farrier, anyone reading this, and the horse possibly. i have a million "what ifs" that i am dealing with, most importantly being WHAT IF I AM DEAD WRONG AND I JUST SIGNED HIS DEATH PAPERS??? whew.... i am terrified that the next trip i make to the barn, will find him laying flat out in agony, with the only recourse being uthanising him, all because of something i did. and between feeding, working and just checking on him, i am making this trip 4-5 times a day.
the small section of the horse world i live in has horses that cost a minimum of 15-20 thousand dollars, after training and showing or racing, that horse is 40-50K. horses are a commodity, much like a truck or trailer or a boat. the quality of the horse is based on the dollar amount of his purchase price, and the only way you can get a "good" horse is to spend at least 5-10 thousand dollars. you work this horse to achieve your goals, regardless of how the horse copes mentally or physically. if there is a problem, you don't always try to fix it, but mask the symptoms, ie: just bute him and ride. some people that i know have gone through several horses this way. and this is the advise i was given, not by the vet or farrier, but i was told just bute him and ride him. and after you use him up,get rid of him: pass him on to someone else as a pasture pet, or use her as a brood mare or worse.
as for the contracture, or club foot, the jury is still out. my vet says no. the farrier had only said it once, in passing roughly a year ago, and the very off hand manor in which he said this, made it seem as if it were no big deal. i thought if there was anything to that thought, he would have said more during the previous two years of shoeing this horse, and since then, or at the very least changed the way he trimmed him then. added to the fact that the rescue vet/farrier never said club foot, nor my own vet. in phone consultion with the farrier with the resue group, after looking at the xrays, club foot was not his first opinion. i know i said they all agreed, but that was after i asked if that was a possibilty, and i am trying to keep my posts shorter (i do talk a lot). they agreed to the possibilty. i included that info in my original post to give you as much info as possible, and it was only after reading your articles that that little snippet of info re-emerged in my brain.
anyways....., yes i do understand the difference between the two conditions. i do understand the differences in the trims. ultimately, we will know one way or the other.
this morning he does appear to be doing ok, just slight improvements. he will start off slowly, but once walking, is better than he was yesterday. at a walk, he will show no big sign of pain, no head bob, etc, he is full weight bearing on both feet. in fact it is i that makes him slow down a little..... (this is before i bute him for the day). maybe he is so use to pain, he expects it, deals with it and accepts it.....
you described in an earlier post the difference you would have trimed:
The feet do look better valerie, but if the horse is lame from the shoeing it suggests we may be doing something wrong. It is important to try and localize the lameness. The radiographs and the manner in which the heels were lowered suggest that soreness is coming from excessive thinning at the sole of the toe. It appears the farrier lowered the heels by cutting a wedge that extends from the heel to the toe. I spent years making horses sore by doing that. Instead a wedge taken from the heels to the quarters, then rotating the sole of the toe off the ground gives better results. On the other hand if the horse is landing flat on this it does suggest we have the room to improve this horses angles. See the article on derotation for pictures of this.
DrO
if the trim that we did does not help him, i will print out your article/method and give to my farrier. at this point, i can't change what has been done.
let me please add that i am very impressed with your website, and the time that you so obviously put into it. actions speak louder than words, and the fact that you take the time to respond to everyones questions speaks for itself.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 11:12 pm:
First you have not signed his death warrant valerie, I would not have supported this attempt at all if I thought it likely you would irreversible hurt your horse. In an earlier post I thought I was clear that if you mess up, it can be repaired it just takes time. So take a deep breath and relax. You are trying to do the best you can for your horse and that is all you can do.
Your farriers self professed past problems with derotation are likely because of the way he does the trim, after all I did the same thing for years with bad results too. The day I learned to lower the heels without thinning the sole at the toe, and in fact getting this area up off the ground where it had been causing chronic bruising for years was a watershed moment for horses I work on. Then too watch a more normal hoof capsule grow around this derotated foot is nothing short of magic, but it happens. But you have to have some give in the flexors to get effective derotation, good luck.
DrO
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Member:
Stomperx
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 8:37 pm:
k, Hi again Dr. O!
as of 6pm, 3 days post trim: i think we are working with good progress and with just ok progress. if you have the patience to keep working with me, i have a bunch more questions! (sorry!)
first off, if you compare the two xrays of his lf, would you consider that the whole bony column has sunk in his foot? i'm comparing the joint between p3 and p2 to the marker outline at the outside top of his hoof wall. (am i just a hypochondriac?) come monday, i will call my vet to see if she remembers how exact she was with her marking material, maybe not very.... BUT, if you look at the picture i posted of his before and after trim, the bulge at his hair line?? IT'S NOW GONE!!!!! actually, it is gone from both feet. i am getting photos first thing in the morning, i think i may even clip his hair for more definition, but that bulge is gone!!! thats good yes??? i know, i know, way too early to get excited...... my first reaction was oh no... but then i raced to the other horses and ran my hands around their feet for comparison. but on the other hand, should i be concerned about this??? there is no heat or swelling in either foot (again i compared hands on with the other horses there...) is this simply a result of the padding material pushing everything back up, and when this support is removed for his next trim, will his foot collapse? is this possible lifting actually detrimental to the lamini connection already established? i am going to paraphrase the strasser trim for comparison reasons only... she says that many times, a chronic will refounder during the healing process, and this is to be expected.
i think, and this is a BIG think, but he MAY be not quite walking on his left toe quite as much. he is no way close to walking on his heel, and i won't know for sure until i have someone else walk him, but while leading him, he may have shifted his weight back just a teeny bit towards the center of the left foot. even a small shift back is good? please tell me yes!!!
he is much more willing to walk, not quite as sore before and after his bute. next question... how long will a 1 gram dose of bute be effective? 2 hours? 6? 8? 24? he is only getting 1 gram/day. if i dose him at 9am, walk him at 6pm, will he still be comfortable from the bute? reason asking: he is much more ornery this evening than this morning. hate to compare him to a prima donna, but 9 times out of ten the boy will plow through the gate puddle, but that tenth time he'll jump over, you never know when he will. tonight he jumped it! sore feet and all! mind you, it's not like jumping a 4 foot riser, but we had lift off. and, he figured out that after a full walking lap around the paddock, he can stop and nibble (yes, i believe in bribery at this point) the last half of each lap, he was dragging me. how fast can i safely let him move? is this the bute talking?? i handwalked him 3 times today, roughhly 20 minutes each, and he was playing with me at each walk session, but much more so this evening. these are all the good parts.
now reality check. i am posting the xrays of his rf taken the same days as his left. this is what my vet calls roughly 0 rotation... does that look right to you? it was at roughly 5 degrees three years ago. i think at this point that he is possibly a little sorer now on his right. he does have a head bob, my instint is its his right foot, but i could be wrong. he is still toe walking on his right. at this point, i am proud of myself for not going into a panic! this is actually to be expected while we work out the kinks of this trim?
next question: while we are working through this process, should i expect him to absess? when trying to reallign with the strasser trim, they say absesses are almost a good thing cause the foot is getting rid of dead material... will it make sense that my horse may do the same thing?
we are doing our walking outside, the ground was soft from rain, but still firm for solid footing. our indoor is thick sand, and i'm afraid of the sand shifting under his feet. maybe he was just happy to get outside again (its been raining a lot, even a tornado here yesterday!) and with me leading him, i did not see any toe dragging. again, i'll have to wait till someone else leads him to see from better angle.
Dr. O., any comments or concerns? anything i should expect or look out for? please please tell me that the absense of the bulge at his hair line is a good thing!!! that its reason to be hopeful!!!!!
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Member:
Stomperx
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 2, 2006 - 1:00 pm:
hi, day 4.
here is what his feet look like today. he may actually be shifting his weight back on both feet, but i'm not sure. its hard to tell on sandy footing, and weather does not permit outside walking today. notice the lack of bulge at his hair line. i had to clip for a good view.
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Member:
Stomperx
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 2, 2006 - 1:04 pm:
here is him standing square, after walking, before bute. i have seen him stand like this rarely.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 2, 2006 - 8:13 pm:
I think lowering the heel a touch on both sides has reduced the hyper flexion of the coffin jt some and therefore it does not push forward as much. It is improved. Assuming the lameness resolved, I do think next trimming and shoeing the last of the flare might be removed and I think I would also consider a bit more rocker in the shoe. However the coffin bone remains upright with respect to the ground and though once all the flare is removed the coffin bone will be parallel with the front wall, no rotation with your vets definition, the coffin bone will still be rotated with respect to the ground when compared with other horses. As happens with digital flexor contracture it is the whole hoof that is rotated.
DrO
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