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Discussion on Multiple episodes of mild colic
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Member:
Bluedog1
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 10:02 am:
Hi Dr. O,
My 7 year old paint mare has had 3 episodes of mild colic (that we are aware of anyway)in the past 2 months. The first two I assumed were from a sudden change in feed. I am quite sure that the workers at the barn substituted a big 3 lb scoop of house grain for the bags I make for her which include 1 lb GrowNWin, her vitamin and joint supplement, probiotics and a little ultimate finish. The first time, we walked her and she improved. The second time was worse, her belly seemed distended with little bowel sounds and she was quite uncomfortable. After talking to the vet, and an injection of banamine/xylazine, she recovered. The third time was yesterday and again walking her for about 30 minutes improved her condition. All three times her symptoms were frequent lying down and sometimes groaning, swishing her tail violently and not eating (which normally is her favorite passtime). I am wondering what the reasons for this frequent colic could be. We have had her for a year and didn't have this problem until recently. We deworm her every 8 weeks, she gets very little grain products and I believe she has a well balanced diet. She is turned out in a large paddock with 6 other mares for about 8 hours a day. I'm suspecting it is the fact that the barn staff may be occasionally feeding her the wrong food and it's a lot more than she's used to getting. Your opinion would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 10:40 am:
Hi, Jackie,
How long has your horse been on her present feeding program?
Does she pass anything (Gas? Manure?) when you walk her out of her colic episodes?
If her feeding program is fairly new to her, she may be getting gassy from something in the feed. Are you sure she needs the probiotics? Why don't you try removing the supplements, one at a time for a few weeks each, to see if that is the problem?
Unless you know for sure that the barn help is feeding her the wrong grain on the occasions she colicked, you can't assume that the grain is the culprit.
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New Member:
Bravo
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 11:00 am:
Jackie
Please discuss this serious problem with the barn manager ---- Does your feed program include alfalfa. We have 40 horses and one of them cannot tolerate alfalfa of any kind. She loves it but it causes this same problem. It produces too much gas in her sensitive system. As soon as the vet told us to cut all alfalfa we have not had one episode. The probiotics is an excellent preventive in case there are any gut flora deficiencies. Our best of luck - JJ
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 11:26 am:
Aside from her diet, are you sure she is getting plenty of clean drinking water? Is she under stress of any kind? (it doesn't sound like it, but maybe she is picked on by the other mares?) Is it possible she could have sand in her gut? Is she fed on mats or other flooring of some kind, or just on the ground? Are there any weeds in the field she to which she could be sensitive? (again, I doubt it if none of the other horses are having problems, but it's worth checking.) Do you worm for tape worms? Good luck resolving this. At least you're paying attention to it before it gets bad.
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Member:
Bluedog1
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 12:10 pm:
Thanks for all the responses and questions! Roxie has been on her present feeding program for 7 months. On all occasions she had manure in her stall. I always assumed that she was brought into the clean stall from turnout and was fed hay, and normally passed manure. Grain feeding is perhaps 30 min or more after feeding hay. Each time we have noticed her colic, her grain bin is empty, which makes me think she eats it up and then gets colic.
Unfortunately, the hay seems to change with each shipment. Sometimes its nice grass hay, sometimes it looks like straw, sometimes its very heavy alfalfa. I haven't coorelated the episodes to changes in hay, but I guess that can't be ruled out.
I deworm with paste every other month. I use a product for tapes, but perhaps I use it during the wrong time of the year? What is the best month(s) to deworm for tapes in the northern Illinois area? Perhaps I should put her on the daily dewormer? I was reading that the top reasons for colic are parasites and grain overload.
As far as her water, the barn help just keeps topping off. When I come out, which is about 6 days per week, I dump the buckets.
The pasture she is in can become quite competitive and there are several mares who like to chase the others off their hay piles. I have made suggestions to resolve the problem, like put out as many piles of hay as there are horses plus and extra one or two. Or to put the hay out first, then turn out the horses so there is less anxiety about who gets the first pile thrown.
The ground is not sandy where they are being fed. The stalls are bedded (very lightly  ) with shavings. Hay is fed on the floor of the stall.
The management is quite poor and I have made plans to move this weekend for this and other reasons. Thanks for all the responses.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 12:28 pm:
Dr. O.,
In a previous discussion on Gas Colic you stated that the gas stems from "maldigestion and rapid fermentation." If a horse has an already healthy digestive system would probiotics upset the balance and contribute to rapid fermentation, therefore, creating more gas?
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 7:09 pm:
I think moving her is a good move. It sounds like there are several things going on that could cause colic in a sensitive horse. Especially in summer buckets need to be emptied and filled with clean water, not just topped off; and the hay could be an issue, too. She could be sensitive to something in her grain, too. What is she getting? Dr. O. has a good article on worming that I'd suggest reading.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 9:00 pm:
I agree with all other posts, with just one other thought to add...how long has she been at the current barn? My horse had mild colics until I treated him for ulcers...
Good luck and it does sound like you're being proactive here and will figure it out.
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Member:
Bluedog1
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 9:10 pm:
As far as grain goes, I mix her meals up myself and keep a stock at the barn for the stable worker to feed her instead of the grain. She gets 1 pound of Buckeye GrowNWin, 1/4 cup of Ultimate Finish, 1 oz of Platinum Performance, 1/2 scoop Recovery EQ, and probiotics. She gets this bag in the am and again in the pm. She has a salt block in her stall. She gets about 7 flakes of hay which I am guessing is about 10 pounds? Sometimes this hay is more alfalfa and sometimes its all grass. I prefer to feed her grass hay.
As to Aileen's post, she has been at this barn for 7 months. I haven't considered ulcers, but will get it checked out if Dr. O thinks this is a possible cause.
thanks for all your help!
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 12:15 am:
Since you say eating is her favorite pastime you might want to check her stools for sand. Sometimes the more voracious eaters will ingest enough "dirt" that they end up with sand colic which can be anything that will build up in their gut. I am sure there is a summary at this site that discusses how to check for sand. I usually take about 4-6 balls. Dissolve it in a bucket of water and carefully pour off the floating material until you can see what is left on the bottom. I like to see 1/8 TSP or less with a good 6 ball sample. I have a mare that CAN NOT be feed on the ground. She is such a piggy! This is a real easy thing to check for and rule out.
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Member:
Bluedog1
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 7:27 am:
I will definitely do the sand test. I'll let you know what I find. Thanks! Here are a few photos of Roxie.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 9:52 am:
A very complete list of possible causes of colics are given with the article associated with this discussion and in most cases ways of diagnosis and treatment is included or linked to. Concerning the idea this is food related, usually overfeeding associated colic has increased bowel sounds, at least early in the disease and not a decrease in sounds. You should also not that deworming every 8 weeks is not enough, it is how you deworm and how the other horses on the farm are dewormed. For more on this see, Care for Horses » Deworming & Parasite Control » Overview of Deworming.
DrO
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 10:15 am:
Jackie - Roxie is beautiful!! Of course, I'm prejudice towards her looks as she looks so much like our black stallion, Asmar! I hope you figure this out soon. I know it's frustrating.
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Member:
Bluedog1
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 2:42 pm:
Thanks Dr. O,
My deworming program with her since I've owned her has been: Sept05 - Ivermectin, Nov05 - Moxidectin - QuestGel, Jan06- strongid, Mar06 - ivermectin, May06 Strongid.
Unfortunately I can't be sure of the other horses being dewormed at the same time and I don't know what they were given. As you may have guessed from my other postings, the management at this barn is sub-par.
My plan is to do the test for sand in her manure, get a fecal parasite test done and then deworm her with ivermectin plus prazquantel then follow your schedule for the basic deworming program.
We moved to a new barn today and I think things will go better here. Do you have any other suggestions? Thank you so much.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 10:06 pm:
What a pretty girl  Good luck to you!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 7:43 am:
Congrats on the move Jackie, if management is suspect it is the most important step. Besides the overview article and it various links, review management against our care articles, check out our first aid of colic article it will prepare you for taking care of future episodes as quickly and economically as possible.
DrO
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Member:
Banthony
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 3:51 pm:
Jackie,
What a beautiful mare!
I have had a couple of horse that had episodes if colic 3-4 times. I am always suspicious of encysted strongyles or sand. After using a sand clear product and a Power Pack or Quest they never showed signs of colic again. Quest recommends treating every 4 months. It has been 7 months, if I'm reading your worming record correctly.
Dr. O,
When I looked at your recommended de-worming schedule I see the first year is exclusively Ivermectin. I have never seen this type of schedule before. Why would you not want to kill L4 stage of strongyles for a whole year?
Is this safe on a horse where the pasture management is not the best?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 6:23 pm:
The reason a yearly rotation is used is to prevent the occurance of resistance. Note it is not what particular stage you are killing that is important but the prepatency period and how that effects frequency of deworming. For a thorough explanation of the rational see the Deworming Overview article.
DrO
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Member:
Banthony
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 10:11 am:
Dr. O,
Thanks for the reply. I am trying to get with the new program and not just rotate wormers. I did read the Overview article. I understand the need to deworm in such a way as to prevent the occurrence of resistance.
If you have a horse that isn't on the best pastures then would you start the program on the moxidectin or daily pyrantel granules year and not the ivermectin? The way it is listed isn't necessarily in the order it needs to be done is it?
I had my horse on daily pyrantel granules, but when he foundered the holistic vet I consulted said I was feeding him "poison" and that he would refounder if I continued. I assume you disagree?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 6:25 am:
No the order is not important. However if I were starting with pyrantel and the horse is of uncertain parasite status I would give a dose of moxidectin as I started the pyrantel. I do not know of any association between pyrantel and founder. Your horse may founder again but it won't be because you are using it. I would not worry to much about the holistic vet's proclamation, after all even water is a toxin when consumed in enough quantity, if we stopped consuming all poisons we would soon die.
DrO
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Member:
Banthony
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 9:10 am:
Thanks Dr. O,
Here in FL every farm I know of worms approx. every 30 days on a rotational schedule - we are all so worried about parasites in a tropical environment. (This philosophy is backed up by the major vet clinics.) So I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around this. But I see the logic.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 6:45 pm:
Are they using products other than what we recommend? For many of the common dewormers even every 30 days would not be often enough to prevent egg contamination of the pastures. You may have to deworm more often than we recommend but the article explains how to discover that and what to do about it when it happens.
DrO
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Member:
Banthony
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 9:35 am:
Dr. O,
Here is the schedule from one of the major vet/surgery clinics here and the one we have been on:
January - Eqvalan
February - Quest
March - Panacur
April - Ivermectin Gold
May - Ivermectin
June - Double Strongid
July - Quest
August - Panacur
September - Ivermectin Gold
October - Ivermectin
November - Quest
December - Double Strongid
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 7:31 am:
I would dump the Panacur because of high resistance, dump the double Strongid because the praziquantel in the Gold is more effective. With this schedule I would also wonder how long before resistance develops to the avermectins: the more often a parasite is exposed to a product the more quickly resistance develops.
I too am worried about parasites, I think they are a major cause of death in young horses and can significantly shorten the life of horses. The questions are what do we do about this? Just throwing more dewormer at it will eventually result in all our dewormers not working. If I found my horses releasing eggs just prior to deworming I would shorten the frequency of deworming but this is explained in the article. However I would stay with the slow (yearly) rotation program and the reason is explained in the article. If I had my horses boarded where they will still pick up parasites because of poor overall parasite control I would try to change the poor control and if I could not, I would move my horses, but this is explained in the article too.
DrO
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Member:
Banthony
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 9:14 am:
Thanks for your input Dr. O.
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