|
|
Discussion on Change of climate for potentially Cushinoid mare
|
| Author |
Message |
Member:
Kathleen
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 12:20 pm:
Dr.O
I just received an email from the person in Nebraska who has been taking care of my 18 yr old mare for a few years due to injury to her knee. We were moving frequently and having to board the horses and couldn't convince barn managers that she needed to be out 24/7 except under extreme conditions. Anyway, she said that the mare grew an extra thick coat this winter, was slow to shed last spring and again this spring, and this summer is now growing a thicker coat again. Thinking it is probably early Cushingoid, she suggested that the mare come to Texas, that it would be better so she wouldn't grow such a heavy coat. That doesn't make sense to me, because the heat here would be a problem. But, when we lived there, the summers could be high 90's / high humidity, so the difference would be not having a cold winter. That said, do you think location, weather, etc is a factor in taking care of a Cushingoid horse? As far as I know she is showing no other symptoms. My vet suggested having a dex suppression test done. He said that if it is done right, it will give helpful information. Your opinion please?
Kathleen
PS We've been thinking of bring her home now that we have the land, but aren't set up for a third horse yet.
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 6:37 pm:
I think this horse will be less comfortable where it is hotter Kathleen. Besides the long coat which will not be greatly effected by the move the horses seem to deal less well with the heat. There are a lot of considerations to the dex suppression test and you will find that in the article on Cushing's.
DrO
|
Member:
Kathleen
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 9:24 pm:
Thank you DrO,
I won't go into details, but it looks like we need to bring her home. I agree with you that the heat here will not be good for her, but unfortunately there were other considerations and her overall care is most important to us. We will be moving her down here by the end of July. Now I probably need to post under the topic of trying to find someone who might be able to help us get her here. I don't know any haulers who go the North/South route, especially from Omaha, Nebraska down to San Antonio, Texas. The horse racing here is over until fall, so we've missed that option. We have always used Bob Hubbard Horse Transportation and I will call them, but last time it took them 6 months and even then they had to go out of their way to get here. I'm hoping one of the CTR competitors might be going south for a ride and someone from my area is going to the same ride and we can work something out that way. If anyone has any ideas, I would love to hear them. This mare is the daughter of our Paso/Arab mare who died in 2001 (at the age of 29)from complications of Cushings and it really will be great to have her here with us for good.
Kathleen
|
Member:
Hwood
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 12:00 am:
Kathleen,
Call Ronnie Joe Knott in Windom Kansas. (near Salina)
rjhorsetransports@onemain.com
He's excellent, and has a great trailer . . . he is a professional and very patient with horses.
He's shipped for me from VT to CO and from CA to KS . . .
Ronnie can give you other names if he is unable to do it.
|
Member:
Banthony
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 10:14 am:
Kathleen,
Here in FL we have an old horse that has Cushings signs. He starts getting a winter coat in August when temperatures are still in the 90's. All I can say is body clip, body clip, body clip. When he gets uncomfortable in the summer and his respiration goes up, we hose him off until he feels cool to the touch and bring him in and put him under a fan until it cools off in the evening.
|
Member:
Kathleen
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 12:24 pm:
Holly,
Thank you, I emailed Ronnie and will see what he can do. Again, thank you very much.
Linda,
Thanks for the info. In Virginia, people paid me to body clip, so I am prepared for that. We will keep her as comfortable as possible. When she gets here, my vet will give her a physical and run some tests based on what he sees and we will go from there.
Thanks to both of you, and to DrO as always
Kathleen
In case Ronnie doesn't work out, I could still use some recommendations on haulers.
|
Member:
Hwood
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 1:59 pm:
Kathleen,
Ronnie's usually pretty good about answering e-mail, but I don't know why I didn't think to give you his number:
620-727-1922 I think that's his cell, so it will reach him if he's on the road.
Best of luck.
|
Member:
Banthony
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 2:11 pm:
Interestingly, this same horse shed out normally this spring. I was grateful for that as I hate body clipping.
|
Member:
Kathleen
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 5:55 pm:
Holly,
Thank you very much for the contact with Ronnie. He is picking Annie up on Monday and probably deliver her to us on Tuesday. This happened way too fast, but we'll have something ready for her when she gets here. I can't wait to see her.
Thanks again
Kathleen
|
Member:
Kathleen
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 18, 2006 - 12:00 pm:
DrO,
Sorry this is so long, but trying to give all the info I can.
Annie Age 18 July 7 2006
We have Annie home again and have been watching her since July 5. I will give you some details and hope you can give us some guidance. First, I received a call from Ronnie (the shipper). He picked her up in Nebraska on Monday, July 3 and took her to his home in Kansas. He said she came off the trailer looking sore in her back end. No big deal, just wanted us to know. He gave her a day of rest and then hauled her on July 5. When she got here early evening July 5, she came off the trailer a little sore on the back end and very weak. I led her around for a while and when she was grazing, her front legs were shaking and she seemed very weak all over, but bright and laid back as usual. She spent the night in our front pasture, then the next morning we took her next door where I have rented a pasture with a run in shed for her until we can get our barn/shed expanded to accommodate her. The pasture she is in is next to one with a mare and foal (but there is a pasture between her and our horses), and she doesn't pay much attention the mare and foal. There is much grass, but she doesn't graze much. She gets a flake of alfalfa twice a day and she eats all of that, but not all at once. She will not eat coastal except to nibble on it. I started giving her a handful of Ultium about a week ago and she is eating that happily. I have increased it to about 6oz. I think she is losing weight, but others say she isn't. I rode her once and she is lively and responsive, even though she hasn't been ridden in years, she still remembers the Ray Hunt beginning she had. She has absolutely no problem with movement, is really striding out naturally, no soreness anywhere that I can see. Her weight according to your scale is a 5. Her hair coat is a bit thick on the body, but she is shedding (a little patchy) and her coat seems normal, shiny, not wavy. She sweats, but not profusely. I hose her off once or twice a day, but she doesn't seem to be overheating and we have had at least one day of over 100 deg temp. She seemed depressed a little, so I started bringing her home at night and putting her in a small paddock next to our other two and she settles immediately and relaxes and seems perfectly normal. She was in a fairly large herd before and I think she doesn't want to be alone. She seems happy to just be near my other horses. We haven't put her with the others yet because she has a reputation for being quick with her back feet. I'm told she pins her ears and then kicks if not listened to immediately. I have one horse who is blind in one eye (Yogi) and another (Mona) who is already stressed (she hides behind Yogi anytime Annie is in sight) and she is still healing her right hind tendon sheath injury. Now, all that said, she has an appointment with the vet next week for a dex suppression test, she will stay overnight. Other than the longer coat, I see no other signs of Cushings that aren't explained by the situation she is in. What are your recommendations? I read your article and will ask for a CBC in addition to the Dex test. What else would you look at if she were to come to you?
Kathleen
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 19, 2006 - 7:25 am:
When a horse has no or vague symptoms I don't look at a physical exam that way Kathleen. I look at a horse for abnormal findings and intentionally keep an open mind. You say it yourself most of the problems ae vague and could very well be the move, certainly weight loss is common on a move. Other than a long coat she has no other signs of Cushings.
A pair of good clippers might be a better investment than a test (which should include chemisties, not just a CBC) whose findings are not that specific or selective and will not change management. But that is a final decision for you and your vet.
DrO
|
Member:
Kathleen
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 19, 2006 - 10:54 am:
DrO
Concerning heat. Our temps have been high 90's to 101 deg. With a horse with cushings (I realize that is not the correct term, but it is the one I am used to using), you worry about the heat and hose them off to keep them comfortable. Does their temp rise? It sounds like a silly question, I assume that it does and that is why you try to cool them off. But I've been mistaken before. She doesn't seem to be in any discomfort from the heat. My mare Mona is more uncomfortable than Annie. I have been taking temps on all three (I started because Yogi was down two days in a row, in obvious distress just lying on his sternum, and I assumed it was because of pain in his eye and gave him banamine and he was fine, then down the next morning and I gave him banamine and he was fine. I did not check his temp before the banamine, so the vet told me that it could have been pain or fever - in his opinion the two main reasons for his behavior. His respirations were at 40-45, heart rate normal. Anyway, I started taking his temp and it has been normal (99.6 to 100.6). Annie's has been normal in the morning (100.4) also after a day in the high 90''s (100.4). I guess this is just a very long way to ask if a horse who is overheating (as with cushings) has an elevated temp. It would just give me another indication of when it is necessary to hose to cool her off as opposed to just hosing her off to clean her up. She is not sweating nearly as much as Mona. I have clippers, but since she is shedding, and doesn't seem uncomfortable, was waiting to see if she sheds completely. If this is an incorrect approach, let me know and I'll clip her. We have lots of gnats right now and clipping would make her more susceptible to gnat irritation on her back and barrel and rump (that is where the extra hair is located).
Due to a death in my vet's family, we have scheduled an appointment for Annie for next week. She has some other issues that I want him to address other than the possibility of cushings. I need to make sure she is sound enough to ride and to what level she can be taken. She also has massive sidebone and ringbone (since the age of 6) and the injury to her knee, that all seems fine now. She also had surgery to remove a tumor from her stifle (it was inside and outside of the joint capsule and the recovery was long) at age 2 and she tied up at age 5 with just 20 min walk/trot some canter. Before I do any more harm to another horse, I want to know if there are any obvious problems that I am missing. I don't trust my own decisions right now.
Kathleen
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 20, 2006 - 9:43 am:
By definition if he is overheating for any reason, his body temperature will be elevated. If you have very hot conditions and a horse with a long hair coat, I would go ahead and clip and not wait for problems.
How have you harmed a horse Kathleen, it sounds like you are being awful hard on yourself?
DrO
|
Member:
Kathleen
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 20, 2006 - 10:54 am:
I feel that I DrOpped the ball on Mona's right hind with the tendon sheath swelling. I believe that if I had been more aggressive in the beginning, maybe it would not be as serious as it is now. And then causing the bandage sore. Just not making the right decisions. I guess I need to explain. I have been suffering from panic attacks and depression for three years. I have gotten the best help and I feel almost normal again. All the old subconscious memories have been dealt with and I feel great now. But there is still the feeling that if I make the wrong decision, something very bad will happen. That comes from being threatened that if I told what happened to me my family would die. I am working on making good decisions and trying not to worry, but it will take a while. For two years I would not ride Mona because she is so sensitive that I was afraid of upsetting her.
I can't believe I just told you that. Maybe it is part of the healing. Anyway, just bear with me.
Kathleen
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Friday, Jul 21, 2006 - 9:33 am:
I see a person trying very hard to do the right thing Kathleen. What we consider mistakes are funny things in that you rarely can accurately guess what would have happened if you did something different. Maybe a better outcome, maybe a worse outcome, often the same. They say hindsight is 20/20 that only is true of assessing where you are and hindsight is no better at picking a better choice than it was when you were first presented with the problem. You make your best choice knowing there are never perfect solutions, we do the best we can and that is all we can ever do.
DrO
|
Member:
Kathleen
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 31, 2006 - 11:24 pm:
DrO,
Annie had the dex suppression test and the vet said it is PID, as you explained in your article. I clipped her and right now we see no symptoms. He said pretty much the same as in your article about diet, etc, and there is no need to treat her until there are symptoms that need treating, then it will be Pergolide we will be using. I am starting to ride her, will slowly leg her up and we will just go from there. She seems to enjoy the attention, but Mona isn't very happy with me right now. She enjoys having a job to do and doesn't like it when I pay too much attention to another horse. We still don't have a report from Dr Lewis about Mona's tendon sheath exam, so I can't do anything with her until he gives the OK.
So for now Annie is doing fine. We are not having horribly hot days like other parts of the country, so thank goodness for small favors. Thanks for all your help.
Kathleen
|
Member:
Kathleen
|
Posted on Friday, Nov 10, 2006 - 4:43 pm:
An update on Annie. I clipped her in August and she did great. But the coat started growing back very quickly. And it is very curly now. Due to my fall and concussion and possibly injuring the already herniated disc in my neck, I have not been allowed to go near the horses. I keep an eye on them and have noticed that Annie seems more depressed and doesn't have much energy. When the other two go tearing around, she just quietly walks until she gets to them. I don't think I have even seen her trot without being prodded.
So, I didn't get her clipped again and today I noticed that she was breathing heavily and seemed in distress. I went out to check on her and she had been standing at the water tank and had scraped the sides with her teeth, the whole inside of the tank had been scraped from the top all the way around the tank and down to the water line - there is about 12 inches of water in a 2-3 ft deep tank. She wasn't drinking, just standing there scraping her teeth on the inside of the tank and breathing hard. Her respirations were 84 and her temp was 102. I hosed her off and her respirations came down to 30 in about 30 minutes and her temp is now 101.1. She seems more comfortable and is grazing again. I will clip her tomorrow, the doctors will just have to chastise me if they find out. (I am having a cervical disc replaced in 10 days, so am not supposed to be doing this stuff, but after seeing her in such distress, I need to do it) She is pretty quiet about clipping. Her weight is stable at 1025 and she is about a 5 on your weight rating scale. What bothers me is her depression and lack of energy. She gets approx 1 lb Purina Ultium 2x day, 1 flake (approx 5 lbs) alfalfa 2x day and pretty much free choice very good quality coastal (probably 10 lb 2x day), and she is out 24/7 and can graze on pasture that is still green but not lush. Her muscle tone is diminishing and I am unable to ride her, but will be able to work with her from the ground in a few weeks. After all that, my question is, do you think it is time for her to be started on pergolide? I know that it is a very subjective question, but it she were your horse, what would you do? Anyone else - opinions please? Money is an issue, but not as important as her quality of life.
Kathleen
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Saturday, Nov 11, 2006 - 10:14 am:
No I think you need to first get someone out to clip her again. Since winter is upon us you might first start with a hunter clip and if that does not get the respiration and temp down a full clip though you may need a blanket when it turns cold. If a full clip does not do it consider the pergolide.
DrO
|
Member:
Pbauer
|
Posted on Saturday, Nov 11, 2006 - 1:06 pm:
Dear Kathleen,
I like the idea of getting someone out to clip her...you shouldn't be doing it!
You're the best!
Tonya
|
Member:
Kathleen
|
Posted on Saturday, Nov 11, 2006 - 1:36 pm:
Thank you DrO, I'll hold off on the Pergolide. And both of you, thank you for thinking of my health, but she needs to be clipped and I have the clippers. I'll compromise and call my daughter to come and help me.
Thanks again, we'll see how this works.
Kathleen
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Sunday, Nov 12, 2006 - 9:16 am:
You could pick up a IM sedative from your vet to greatly increase the ease of trimming.
DrO
|
Member:
Kathleen
|
Posted on Sunday, Nov 12, 2006 - 9:50 am:
Thank you DrO for that suggestion. I really appreciate everyone's concern for my health, but I don't think that there is much danger to me or I would not do this. I have clipped many horses for others and charged a great deal to do it, so am familiar with clipping. We are going to just do hunter clip to start as DrO suggested, so that shouldn't take long at all and my daughter will be here to do her share of the clipping. Annie has been clipped before and stands very quietly. I feel like I'm missing something. I don't feel this is as dangerous to me as everyone else does (including my husband). I will be very careful and will not put myself in danger (that is ludicrous as horses are inherently dangerous, duh). It is a dilemma.
Kathleen
|
Member:
Mrose
|
Posted on Sunday, Nov 12, 2006 - 10:37 am:
Go for it, Kathleen! You know your horse and you're experienced. If I did everything the doctors told me to do I'd probably be sitting in a chair unable to walk! And...bored silly! I personally think that getting out and doing as much as you're able without taxing yourself, helps you heal/fight disease. And, interacting with your horse will help you mentally and physically.
btw-I was rereading the posts here, and really like Dr. O's post of July 21st. Very good advice/comment for all of us to remember.
|
Member:
Kathleen
|
Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 11:36 am:
DrO and Sara,
The deed is done. We clipped everything except for her legs and part of her head. I will go back at some point and trim the hair on her legs, but not completely clip them. That is something that is too hard on my neck and back. I'll save that for another time. Besides, don't think her legs really need to be clipped too much. She is much more comfortable and her resp are now 30/min.
Thanks for your help and encouragement.
Sara, you are right about DrO's July 21st post. I try to keep that in mind and am successful some of the time.
Kathleen
|
|
|
