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| HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Endocrine System » Pituitary Pars Intermedia Dysfunction (PPID): Equine Cushing's » |
| Discussion on 28 yo TB mare suspected Cushings | |
| Author | Message |
| Member: Cheryl |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 8:54 am: Lady failed to shed out this year. She has been depressed - often staying off by herself which is very unusual for her. On her dental exam my Vet found two loose teeth which were pulled. The Vet suggested she has cushings and that she be put on 1.0 pergolide per day. She urinates frequently and her urine smells horrible. She was started on the pergolide June 6 with no visible improvements - on July 5 the Vet had me bump her up to 1 1/2 capsules per day. There has still been no change other than she does appear a little more lively.After reading through the article again, I should not expect her to shed out this year and should go ahead and clip. My Vet gave me the impression the medication would cause her to shed and that I should see a big improvement almost immediately. I am really confused about what I should be doing with her. She has a good appetite. Is getting free choice alfalfa/grass hay (at least 80% alfalfa) and is drinking well. Since I was expecting big changes on the pergolide, were we too fast to up the dosage? As expensive as the meds are if the increased dosage isn't necessary that would be nice. Thanks, Cheryl |
| Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 11:54 am: i've heard figuring out dosage is a chore... and is half the battle.was she tested? most vets, mine included chose not to test and just assume cushings. Because all horses at this age have the propensity for cushings, or cushings related metabolic disorders. and there are few of them... knowing exactly what she has can help you pinpoint what exactly you need to do. This forum is the best out there, but there is a dr. Eleanor Kellon who is a front runner in the research, she has a yahoo group forum. Equinecushings@yahoo.com. might want to consider joining that list too. People talk only of this. and what they are doing. How things work and what doesn't. Also where you can buy pergolide cheapest in the country, stuff like that... there are two ways to get pergolide. I have heard one way is much better than the other. BUt i don't know much more about it. I chose NOT to put my horse on pergolide and went with a chasteberry... i put in the feed for about 8 months. Now test came back negative to cushings. And IR, but she is still overweight. and still has some flaring problems in her hoof. BUT i watch her like a hawk... Just putting her on pergolide doesn't make it go away. There are many other items to address. The most important thing i learned is that you need to monitor her NSC's and sometimes the alfalfa is a bit too much unless you soak it first. Stop all grains. Stop all sugars. Stop the grazing, or lessen it. Find out what your area is lacking in terms of minerals. and start adding what she needs. Goal is to balance the body to be able to live with the metabolic disorders. And watch out for secondary problems like laminitis... Its a bit of a confusing disease because they are just starting to understand what it is and how it is handled. There is alot of conflicting information out there. And it can get very confusing. and get worse before it gets better. For me i had to become the resident expert. I just didn't think my vet was the most up to date on certain things.. Good luck... |
| Member: Paul303 |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 1:33 am: Jojo brought out all the important points, Cheryl. My 26 yr. old QH mare has been on pergolide for around 2 yrs. It's a frustrating problem to deal with. I saw the hair coat coming for a few years, but was happy to agree with the vets that saw her when they said that "she just didn't look like a Cushings candidate." But I was uneasy....came here to this site and reviewed the article. Her unkempt appearance, disinterest, depression, constant drinking and urination...and finally lying down constantly, made me push for a test. Cushings was confirmed and we started on 1mg pergolide. Our first response to the medication was a little more spark and interest in her. She shed out well the first spring, but not completely. I clipped the remaining hair. Going into last winter, her appetite waned, and she slowed down again. Meds were increased to 1.5mg. She wasn't THAT good, though. We had begun ordering her medication from VETERINARY PHARMACIES OF AMERICA. They DO compound their own medications, but when I questioned them, they said that they used human grade pergolide. They supply it in a soft chew flavored with alfalfa or apple. It costs much less that the human caplets, PERMAX. We switched back to the caplets ( human )when she started sliding back - no difference. She stopped eating at the end of last winter, so I ordered from VETERINARY PHARMACIES again - but this time in 2mg alfalfa chews on a hunch that she wasn't getting enough medication in her when it was in her feed ( that she wouldn't finish ). I mixed it in baby applesauce and syringed it in her. It worked. This year, no clipping, her coat is glossy and dappled. Excessive drinking has ceased, and her old upbeat personality is back.I guess you just have to watch and manage Cushings according to what suits your horse. My mare gets KWIK - peletted whole feed ( about a cup AM and PM), Farrier's Formula ( 1/2c AM and PM ), just about free fed hay ( grass ) and a couple hours pasture daily ( not lush ). Right now, we're doing well, but I'm ready to switch direction at a moment's notice. OH! The VET PHARMACY's 2 mg. pergolide, is still less than 1/2 the cost of 1 mg. human caplets. Right now, it's working, so....whatever floats her boat. If it stops, I guess it's back to the human stuff again. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 7:14 am: Cheryl the 2 symptoms I am usually treating with pergolide is the depression and/or founder. Everything else can usually be managed. I do expect remarkable improvement in either of these 2 within 3 weeks at the starting dose or 2 times the starting dose in the article. Of course one person's remarkable might be another person's not so remarkable but I often get the comment that goes something like "she acts like she is 10 again".Unfortunately you do not list the concentration of your capsules so you should consider these possibilities, but if you are not seeing a horse that acts remarkably brighter you should consider: 1) Some other cause of the depression 2) Too low a dose 3) Ineffective medication I bring up the last because in an attempt to save on costs folks buy short dated or compounded products and sometimes these have decreased potency when compared with fresh Permax. DrO |
| Member: Cheryl |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 12:28 pm: OK - will try to get all this answered1 - Lady is skinny, rather than fat. She has a hay belly, which I was told by an equine nutritionist, is caused by gas(???) Her ribs show plainly, she has a really thin neck and slight hollows on her rump. 2 - She has never foundered. She has had three abscess's - or anyway I think the latest episode was an abscess. I just had a message on here about that. Could not find where the abscess broke - both the Vet and farrier (who was here this morning) could find no evidence of an abscess. 3 - She does not have really long hair - it's almost like an undercoat that didn't shed. She had a really long thick winter coat(not wavy), which didn't surprise me given the winters in ND. She did shed a buckets of hair - but not the medium length fuzzy stuff she still has. 4- She has always stuck to the other horses like glue. This summer there have been several times I've seen her at the other end of the pasture just standing with her head hanging, not the least interested in where the other horses were. 5- I just had fecal counts done on all three horses - all negative. The pasture is cleaned every day and they have been on a yearly rotation of invermectin - quest - double dose of strongid - and the complete invermectin for tapes once a year. 6 - The label on the caps states it is Pergolide Mesylate 1MG. and that it was compounded in the lab per perscriber. There is no expiration date on the label which surprises me. 7 - She has perked up some, is eating well - but has not shed any at all. She started the meds on 6-6 at 1 mg per day - and was increased to 1.5 mg per day on 7-5. She is currently separated from the other horses because they are on a strict diet and where she is she has access to some grass along with the free choice grass/alfalfa hay. I guess my question is, should I be concerned about the lack of response and talk with my Vet about increasing the daily dosage again? Thanks, Cheryl |
| Member: Cheryl |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 12:30 pm: YIKES - I forgot to thank all of you for your responses. They are really appreciated. Cheryl |
| Member: Shirl |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 12:48 pm: Cheryl,I know it's frustrating, but re-read JoJos post above. Your horse should be on a strict diet, no grass, Bermuda hay (some horses can't tolerate alfalfa), etc. Try changing her diet a bit. Get her a grazing muzzle you can tape mostly shut, etc. Good luck, Shirl |
| Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 1:48 pm: grass belly caused by gas? thats funny.. could be true though. But most likely caused by loss of topline, and muscle wastage. nutritional deficiencies, or wormy...Have you tested this horse? run a full blood panel to rule out other things? when reading your post each listing to me, said worms, but then you added how the fecal was negative. The abscesses mean something is changing in her hoof form. laminitis episodes can happen without you ever knowing it. Especially if its a stoic horse. and they can blow out in areas you aren't quite sure that is what it is... on the heel bulb. or coronet. Have the teeth been checked by a vet that specializes in teeth? mouth sores? could be something serious going on there...2 teeth pulled? hmm. i have a 26 year old never had to pull anything. knock wood.. and now that i read your post again, smelly urine is not normal... kidneys, liver? Does anyone know if giving pergolide creates a smelly urine? What color? thick? I'm wondering, since shedding out is the #1 thing you mentioned to the vet, then skinny, then depressed, maybe he just said aha, cushings... and didn't go much further in his diagnoses... and adding the smelly urine, loss of topline, abscesses, pulled teeth, dull coat, etc.. it could very well be cushings but, other management changes haven't been made to help him.. and truly if this horse has cushings, take her off grass and stop feeding alfalfa unless you soak out the NSC's and stop feeding any adult feeds, complete or with sweet feeds, etc.... its only counteracting the pergolide. Start finding low carb feed alternatives, beet pulp, grass hays, minerals, etc... there is only so much the pill can do if the body is still fighting all the crap making her sick... it's like giving chocolate cake to a diabetic... Try upping the dose and make the feed changes. and see what happens, in 10 days to 2 weeks... if she doesn't turn around then pull blood. cause it could be something else.... |
| Member: Paul303 |
Posted on Thursday, Jul 27, 2006 - 2:03 am: The vets were looking for weight loss as a symptom in my mare. I knew something was wrong...but she looked GOOD....for 24. Her head hung low, no spark in her eyes, excessive drinking, lying down a LOT, and, loss of tone on her topline. It was my farrier who caused the light to go on: "THIS FOOT IS HOT", he said. I'd thought it was hot, but everyone said I was imagining things. Well, I got the vet in to x-ray the front feet. She did the ACTH test at that time because of the foot problem. That test is not that reliable but the Dex was not considered safe when we were teetering at the edge of a possible founder. She DID have small nebulous pus pockets in her frogs, but boy, we hit her with every treatment we could and they cleared right up. The ACTH was high, although her glucose levels were normal, so we started the Permax ( pergolide ). Like Dr.O said, it took about 3 wks. What did I see? Well, she was.....brighter. We've had our ups and downs since, and she is now on 2mg. as I said....but that IS with the compounder....but this is the medication I can get IN her. On the human caplets, she kept going off her feed. Sometimes, like when your horse loses interest in all food for 3 weeks you'll throw all diets out the window and feed COTTON CANDY, if she'll eat it ( I foaled this gal in 1980 ). Luckily, pasture always gets her started, so far, anyway.Keep trying things, your horse doesn't sound insulin resistant to me. I'd give the pergolide a good long test run keeping in mind that an increase is a possibility. Definitive tests will give you more confidence. The most important thing to remember is: talk to your vet. Your vet needs your feedback in order to make proper decisions. Don't wait for your vet to ask the "right" question, just lay out all the things you have observed and the vet will know how to sift through. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Jul 27, 2006 - 6:16 am: Hay / grass bellies are due to relaxation of the abdominal musculature to accommodate the large bowel which becomes bigger in diameter in response to increase roughage processing. I guess some of that is gas but mostly more fiber.You do say the horse is brighter but not shed yet. Sometimes that is what you get. You could try a higher dose but I would also consider a different product next time. After several disappointing attempts with generics, I use to suggest to clients that they begin with the Permax then once we get a response experiment with the generics. DrO |
| Member: Cheryl |
Posted on Thursday, Jul 27, 2006 - 8:39 am: I don't think Lady is insulin deficient. She has always been a really hard keeper, even on lush pasture. I think the abscess's were from stone bruising. Two popped out at the coronet band - have no idea what happened with the latest one.Dr. O your explanation of the cause of a hay belly makes a whole lot more sense - glad that's cleared up.(g) Dr. Brown's practice is limited to horses and mules, he does complete dental work and spent a lot of time working on Lady's mouth. I'm sure the loose teeth were painful because once they were out she started eating really well. I will talk to him about getting Permax next time to see if it makes any difference. What with the pain from her teeth, then the abscess, maybe she was just dealing with too much pain to be interested in anything. At any rate she is now showing interest in things going on around her, so hopefully a combination of everything is going to help her. We are in the middle of 100 degree days so that is added on top of everything else. Thanks everyone for your input. Cheryl |
| Member: Cheryl |
Posted on Thursday, Aug 17, 2006 - 10:10 am: I just received this message this morning. I hope it's OK to post it here - seems to be very helpful:I have really enjoyed reading the string of posts from late July on Equine Cushings and I apologize that I am coming into the discussion (very) late. I just found this sight today. My understanding is that most, but not all, Cushing's horses are Insulin Resistent(IR). Folks that suspect Cushing's should get a definitive diagnosis via an ACTH Stimulation test. Pergolide is not a drug to be given when (or your vet) suspects that your horse may have Cushings. Like all drugs, Pergolide has side-effects, including hallucinations, gastrointestinal problems, and sleep disorders. Insultin Resistance is managed with diet. I don't know too much about this topic (I own a veterinary pharmacy in Denver, Colorado so I know about Pergolide but not IR diet). The Equine Cushing's group on Yahoo was more than 4,000 members and is an excellent source for information on Cushing's and IR. Dr. O makes a great point about "ineffective pergolide." Many compounding pharmacies encourage their clients to get the suspension and claim it has a beyond-use-date of 3-6 months. In reality, the USP (United States Pharmacopeia) mandates 14 day dating for the suspension. You are ALWAYS better off using the tablet or capsule rather than the suspension because pergolide is very unstable in water. If you have to use the suspension, request a copy of a third party stability study that documents the beyond-use-dating they use for their product (if any pharmacy can actually provide that I will be surprised). I can't stress enough the excellent advice and support you will get on the Equine Cushing's List (Yahoo). Here's the link https://groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/ Ian Hudgings Vet Pet Solutions (303) 320-6034 ian@vetpetsolutions.com The prices for their pergolide: Now for the Pergolide Capsule pricing. 0.25 mg- $0.40 each 0.50 mg- $0.46 each 0.75 mg- $0.48 each 1.00 mg- $0.50 each 1.25 mg- $0.55 each 1.50 mg- $0.60 each 1.75 mg- $0.65 each 2.00 mg- $0.70 each Orders of $40 or more qualify for free shipping. Shipping is $4.00 for orders less than $40. Ian Hudgings Vet Pet Solutions (303) 320-6034 ian@vetpetsolutions.com |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Aug 18, 2006 - 6:38 am: I agree Cheryl, this is a very helpful post with the only critique I have being that the ACTH testing is prone to both false negatives and false positives as do most lab tests for this disease. The dex suppression test still remains the most accurate test in experimental surveys but you must use caution with this test. The article discuses more on this and the diagnosis of this disease. In my mind clinical signs followed by clinical response remain the gold standard with lab results having a supportive role.DrO |
| Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Friday, Aug 18, 2006 - 9:24 am: Very true about the ACTH test. I have had two so far. one said positive to cushings and one said negative. I haven't taken a third test. Time of day, time of year, how long since eating, active, etc, and of course the doctor taking it all are variables. and it funny each test was taken by a different doctor, firm, lab, and results... |
| Member: Cheryl |
Posted on Monday, Oct 23, 2006 - 3:11 pm:  This is a picture of a lump that just showed up on Lady. Didn't know where else to post it. The lump is about 5-6 inches long. It is firm, not hard and there is swelling running down the veins going towards her udder. It does not appear to be painful. Any clues??? Is it something I need to have the Vet out for? Thanks, Cheryl |
| Member: Cheryl |
Posted on Monday, Oct 23, 2006 - 3:15 pm:  This is a picture taken looking up at the lump. |
| Member: Kathleen |
Posted on Monday, Oct 23, 2006 - 7:02 pm: Is this the same location? Looks like yours is farther back. This came up on Mona's belly and was gone in a few days. Kathleen |
| Member: Cheryl |
Posted on Monday, Oct 23, 2006 - 7:49 pm: Kathleen Woo - thank you so much ! ! ! It looks like it is in pretty much the same location - just past midline towards the rear- Did you ever find out what it was? If it went away on it's own - maybe I can stop being paranoid? Cheryl |
| Member: Kathleen |
Posted on Monday, Oct 23, 2006 - 8:06 pm: I don't know what it was, but it went away on it's own. I know when I scratched it, she liked it, so it may have been an allergic reaction to something. I started putting Swat on it in case it was flys, I think that's all I did. But it was not a problem.Kathleen |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 24, 2006 - 5:56 am: Both Kathleen's and Cherl's picture are of ventral edema, which means fluid (serum) accumulating under the skin on the belly. There can be many causes to such an event that range from mild trauma like a bad insect bite all the way up to heart failure. For more on exactly what edema see Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases » Swellings / Localized Infection / Abscesses » Diagnosing and Assessing Swellings in Horses. If this persists more than a few days, is progressively worse, or associated with other clinical signs you should talk to your veterinarian about this.DrO |
| Member: Cheryl |
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 24, 2006 - 8:45 am: Thank you Dr. O. I read through the article on Swellings on horses - on your chart showing the different locations - Lady's swelling is right between the two areas you have marked on the belly. I tried to find an article on congestive heart failure and couldn't find anything pertaining to this. One of my cats died of congestive heart failure. Her entire abdomen was distended and tight. She was also having a difficult time breathing. Would this be the same in horses?Cheryl |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 24, 2006 - 11:23 am: The post was meant to give you an idea of the range of possibilities Cheryl and not to suggest your horse has congestive heart failure. Ventral edema is a very common symptom and it is too early to contemplate an actual diagnosis. Unless your horse has continued to feel depressed as in your posts of last summer I would not worry to much about it. But if it continues, worsens, or if there are still symptoms of depression or poor doing you should consult with your veterinarian about a possible exam with an eye to figuring out if this swelling is related to the other symptoms.DrO |
| Member: Cheryl |
Posted on Wednesday, Oct 25, 2006 - 8:15 am: Not to fear - Dr. O - I'm hoping it is just something that will dissipate on it's own - wanted to know what I should be watching for if it doesn't. The problem is that she is not doing well. She is on straight grass hay and straight soaked beet pulp with her supplements and pergolide. She has lost more weight - I taped her on 7/19 at 1000 pounds - she is now down to 888. When Dr. Brown checked her on 10/17 he said she was having intermittent bouts of founder. Her pergolide has been increased to to caps per day which would be 2 mg (?) with no change. Dr. B also trimmed her toes back even more but it hasn't helped. About two weeks ago her water consumption went from just around 3-5 gals a day to close to 16. She is staying in her stall except to come out to drink and she is eating almost non-stop. She is getting 8 scoops of Super 14 and 2 scoops of Accel in two feedings - about 2 cups of soaked BP pellets. I also just put her on bute 1 g twice a day - no results yet. She does not appear depressed - nickers for her feed - actually stands there DrOoling while I feed the other two horses. She has an absolutely huge belly but she is just boney. She is chewing the hay with no problem - no cuds at all. I really don't know what else to do for her. |
| Member: Hwood |
Posted on Wednesday, Oct 25, 2006 - 8:51 am: Cheryl.Does she get any extra calories in oil or fat supplements? Also, I understand that large amounts of oil can wreak havoc with gut flora, especially in older horses whose guts may be slowing down due to age, anyway, so you could try some plain yogurt mixed with her beet pulp in addition to a 1/2 cup of oil (that you can gradually increase up to a cup to a cup and a half in the a.m. and p.m. feedings. There is a good possibility that there is something else going on internally (would blood testing help?) that is keeping her from absorbing nutrients. I've been there, Cheryl, and it's really hard to watch them loose weight when you are doing everything you can to make sure that they have what they need. |
| Member: Cheryl |
Posted on Wednesday, Oct 25, 2006 - 10:05 am: Holly - thanks - She just gets the Super 14 - which is really high fat content but nothing like oil. Mostly - I want to do something about the founder - she is in so much pain. I had her on styrofoam pads for awhile but they didn't seem to help at all. Right now she is eating at least three to four times more than the other two. It doesn't matter how much hay I leave out for her at night - there is nothing there in the morning. With all her problems I'm worried about the bute - but I gotta do something. And she just seems so happy (sigh) Dr. O - what is your opinion on the oil? Thanks, Cheryl |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Oct 26, 2006 - 6:39 am: I do not know of any work that suggests that high fat (which is the same thing as oil) diets can harm gut flora as long as there is adequate forage.Carefully reviewing the information above the problem here is we seem to be operating in the dark, too many problems too little information and following up on Holly's suggestions: Cheryl the vet was out a week ago did he run a CBD and chemistries and how did he say the heart sounded? Also when was the last set of radiographs done and what were the findings? Even better is to post the radiorgraphs for us to review. DrO |
| Member: Hwood |
Posted on Thursday, Oct 26, 2006 - 9:28 am: I apologize if my commment about oil causing a change in the gut bacteria is incorrect. I didn't question it, though I haven't seen any studies and was repeating what an equine nutritionist told me.
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| Member: Cheryl |
Posted on Thursday, Oct 26, 2006 - 9:36 am: Dr. B has never done any testing on Lady. There have been no x-rays. When she is turned she squats on her hind feet to make the turn. Dr. B could find no heat in her feet - nor a high pulse. He indicated her heart was fine. She did not have the lump when he was here. She was started on the Super 14 on 8/21 - with-in two weeks she had started shedding out big time. She is just now starting to grow a winter coat and it is much lighter than it has ever been. She was on the pergolide June-August with no change. She was just started back on the pergolide on 10/21.A change this morning - her stall is always a mess with soaked bedding - this morning there were no wet spots. This is a first since she has had access to the stall in early July. Dr. Brown is trying to avoid doing expensive testing. He's sure she has Cushings and her stance when she is turned totally convinced him she has foundered. If we absolutely must have additional testing done we will find a way but if we can get her through this without it would sure help. Fox as usual - has managed to eat up my horse budget for the next year. |
| Member: Cheryl |
Posted on Thursday, Oct 26, 2006 - 9:53 am: Holly - Dr. O said there was no evidence that oil caused a problem - You didn't say anything wrong - You did good - Cheryl |
| Member: Kathleen |
Posted on Thursday, Oct 26, 2006 - 10:36 am: I believe Super 14 is high in fat (soy - may be totally wrong about that), and I used it years ago when the horses were boarded and they got really shiny coats. Don't have a problem with shiny coats now that I am taking care of them at home, but wondered about giving the Super 14 to my cushing (PID) mare? I body clipped her in July/August and she is already wooly and wavy haired. DrO, what do you think of the benefit of adding this supplement? Her coat is shiny and healthy, but if it helped Lady shed her heavy coat, is it worth a try?Kathleen |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Oct 26, 2006 - 7:22 pm: The diagnosis of Cushings and founder, both of which are best made from clinical signs, does not rule out findings and complications that may lead to more specific therapy or a earlier realization that the prognosis is poor or it may just rule out these possibilites and suggest it is useful to keep trying and which avenues might be the most fruitful.Kathleen, I am uncertain the supplement would be an improvement over the high fat food she is feeding already but evaluating the diet a bit closer is a good place to start. Cheryl list each of the foodstuffs your horse is getting and how much (by weight) she get daily. In the case of commercial preparations we need the nutrient profile and ingredients. You may need to get a large kitchen scale and copying and pasting nutritional info from web sites can make this easier. You should also review again the articles on Cushings, Funder, and Weight Loss and see if there are aspects you have overlooked. DrO |
| Member: Cheryl |
Posted on Friday, Oct 27, 2006 - 2:42 pm: This is the analysis of the AccelGuaranteed Analysis,minimum:per pound Lysine 0.60% 2,700 mg Methionine 0.55% 2,500 mg Tryptophane 0.27% 1,200 mg Glycine 0.70% 3,160 mg Cystine 0.20% 920 mg Arginine 0.61% 2,780 mg Histidine 0.21% 960 mg Leucine 0.25% 1,100 mg Isoleucine 0.67% 3,020 mg Phenylalanine 0.59% 2,670 mg Tyrosine 0.44% 2,000 mg Threonine 0.54% 2,460 mg Valine 0.77% 3,480 mg Aspartic acid 0.17% 750 mg Calcium, min. 4.01% 18,182 mg Calcium, max. 4.81% 21,819 mg Phosphorus 3.03% 13,730 mg Magnesium 2.05% 9,278 mg Potassium 1.51% 6,831 mg Sulfur 6,893 ppm 3,127 mg Iron 5,688 ppm 2,580 mg Zinc 1,323 ppm 600 mg Manganese 1,102 ppm 500 mg Copper 441 ppm 200 mg Cobalt 22 ppm 10 mg Iodine 22 ppm 10 mg Selenium 9 ppm 4 mg Vitamin A 100,000 IU Vitamin D3 20,000 IU Vitamin E 4,000 IU Vitamin B12 3 mg Menadione 4 mg Riboflavin 100 mg d-Pantothenic acid 200 mg Thiamine 224 mg Niacin 500 mg Vitamin B6 243 mg Folic acid 80 mg Choline 2,866 mg d-Biotin 8 mg Ascorbic acid 500 mg Direct-fed microbials,guaranteed analysis:: Mixed Lactic Acid Bacteria 3.69 x 106 CFU/gm Saccharomyces cerevisiae 9.92 x 106 CFU/gm Enzymes,guaranteed analysis: Amylase activity, min. 0.625 CMC units/lb Protease activity, min. 60 HUT/lb Cellulase activity, min. 10 BAU/lb These are the ingredients: Ingredients: alfalfa meal dehydrated, soybean flour, calcium carbonate, monocalcium phosphate, dicalcium phosphate, potassium chloride, potassium sulfate,magnesium sulfate,magnesium oxide, dl-methionine, molasses products, dried whey, dried skim milk, vitamin A acetate, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, menadione dimethylpyrinidinol bisulfite, ascorbic acid,Vitamin B12 supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, choline chloride, folic acid, niacin supplement, pyridoxine hyDrOchloride, riboflavin supplement, thiamin mononitrate, cobalt proteinate, copper proteinate, ethylenediamine dihydriodide, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, iron proteinate,manganese proteinate, sodium selenite, zinc proteinate, dried fermentation extracts of:Aspergillus niger,Trichoderma longibrachiatum, Bacillus subtilis, dried fermentation products: Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus fermentum, Bifidobacterium longum, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus plantarum, Pediococcus acidilacticii, natural and artificial flavors,mineral oil. Contains a source of: Amylase, which can hyDrOlyze starch; protease, which can hyDrOlyze proteins; and cellulase,which can break down cellulose. |
| Member: Cheryl |
Posted on Friday, Oct 27, 2006 - 2:48 pm: There is an error on the Super 14 page so I couldn't go to the label information - however this is the ingredients:Contains protein, methionine, vegetable fat, fiber, ash, selenium, vitamins A, E and B-6 in the guaranteed analysis Contains polyunsaturated fatty acids plus vitamin E and vitamin B-6 to leave skin healthy, coats sleek and glossy |
| Member: Cheryl |
Posted on Friday, Oct 27, 2006 - 3:06 pm: Ok - will try - She is getting two ounces of the Accel - 1 each meal - 8 tablespoons of Super 14 -4 each meal - 1 3/4 cups of beet pulp - plain no molasses - soaked - at each meal. She also get all the grass hay she can eat. It's basically in front of her 24 hr a day. She also gets a 1 mg (I think it's mg) of pergolide in the AM. Right now she is not getting any grain at all. And I don't think she would eat any more beet pulp.I have read through the articles at least three times and manage to confuse myself even more with each reading. The styrofoam pads didn't seem to help her so this morning I cut some pads out of carpet padding and put three thickness's of them on her - works out to about 1 inch of padding -- left the toe from the apex of the frog forward uncovered. That seems to have helped some - When I went out I tried to pick up the RF first - she refused so I put the pads on the RL - she then allowed me to pick up the RF with no resistance and did not try to take it away. I hope all of this is what you want - it sure is a lot to read through. I really appreciate all your help - I know it is very time consuming. Cheryl |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Oct 27, 2006 - 6:32 pm: What would you estimate she eats in hay a day? What kind of hay is it and lastly what about a trace mineral salt block? Though you give the tape weight above but what would you judge her condition using the Horse Care » Equine Management & Routine Procedures » Weight, Condition, and Eventual Height Estimation. The first change I would like to see is to add a 1/2 cup of bran to each feeding of beet pulp to balance the Ca/phos and increase the protein further. To this I would add 4 oz of vegetable oil as a start to the weight loss issue if her condition is less than a 5.That said there is nothing in the diet likely to be exacerbating the founder. Cheryl besides the nutritional questions above what is her exercise regiment like? What does the veterinarian say about the conditions of the soles and likely rotational status? DrO |
| Member: Cheryl |
Posted on Saturday, Oct 28, 2006 - 10:46 am: Dr. O - I guess I would give her a 3 - Her ribs are plainly visable but I can feel fat between them - all her vertebra can be felt - some fat over the center section. There is about a one inch dip between the tips of her pelvis bones however her hip bones are covered and she still has decent flesh on the insides of her hind legs.I have no idea what kind of grass the hay is - It's round baled - several different grass types -- brome I think - and the rest I have no idea. She actually prefers it to the alfalfa/grass we have that we can't feed. It's decent hay - but that's about it - I really can't say how much she eating - I always pull off at least 20 pounds for her - she goes through that and then gets into the bale itself - she picks through it eating what she likes and destroying the rest. I would guess she is probably eating about 30 pounds a day. I clean up close to 20 piles of manure per day. Her exercise is non-existent. If I take Fox out of the pen to work her - Lady will go outside and graze. She will not willingly go out by herself because she can no longer see Fox - which is an absolute necessity. All four ankles are stocked up - I'm assuming from lack of exercise. She stays in the barn except to go right outside the door to drink water. Since starting the pergolide again on 10/21 - her water consumption has been cut from 16 gals per day to around 8. The bute doesn't seem to be helping her at all - the pads I put on helped a little but she is still horribly sore on her front feet. The Vet did not say anything about rotation or the condition of her sole - just that her toes were to long - he removed about 3/4 of an inch but was afraid to take off any more - I guess I should have been more assertive about stopping her pain - maybe he was hesitant because of the added cost. He didn't suggest any treatment other than getting her back on the pergolide. Do you have a preference on the kind of bran - rice or wheat and with the Accel - do I need to add more calcium? Yes she has a mineral salt block - She uses it some but not as much as the other two horses. Thank you so much! Cheryl |
| Member: Cheryl |
Posted on Saturday, Nov 4, 2006 - 11:48 am: Dr. O - What has to happen with the weather before the fall grass is safe for foundered horses to be turned out on it?Right now I have three horses in very confined areas. Lady is getting 0 exercise. If I can turn Fox and Robbie out in the pasture - Lady will be outside most of the day - which means she will be walking around at least some. Everything I've read indicates exercise is required for the hoof to heal. If I'm wrong on this - please let me know. Thanks so much, Cheryl |
| Member: Scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Nov 4, 2006 - 2:54 pm: Hi Cheryl, where I live it has frosted many times and we have had a few good freezes. 2 of my horses have foundered in the past so I try to be careful in the fall also. Mine are out 24/7 now since the freezes and I haven't had any problems, nor pulses.I did keep them up at first thru the night then slowly let them out all day, just to makes sure. Treat it kinda like spring grass and introduce it slowly. Hope that helps you some. |
| Member: Lynnea |
Posted on Saturday, Nov 4, 2006 - 5:45 pm: Cheryl...just to add my comments on cushings...Between a friend of mine and myself we have 5 horses that are cushings. They are all in their late 20's and my mare was diagnosed at 18...(she is 25 now) The primary thing that helped all 5 of our horses was the pergolide (the human prescription)... My mare Katy had all the symptoms Lady had except laminitis. I had noticed her losing weight and becoming depressed, and the stall was flooded. I called the vet ..bloodwork andthe ACTH test indicated she was definitely leaning into the cushing problem. She, however, had a high glucose count. It took about two months for her to return to her normal , happy self being on 1mg of pergolide. My vet told me that being extremely CONSISTENT with that drug was very important. For the last 7 years she has not missed a day without that drug....It has been upped to 1 1/2 , and I know of horses that have gone to 3 tablets. I hope she can stay where she is. My other horse is 28 and he has been on pergolide also (same one as Katy)..for 3 years. He started with the hairy coat, polyuria and polydipsia and a lameness in one foot. My vet put him on pergolide without any testing and everything changed on him in no time. Feeding the cushing horse is a study in itself...but, with Katy , because she tends to have a high glucose count she gets nothing sugary and no alfalfa...timothy or orchard. hay...Nutrena senior without molasses. Platinum Performance and salt. Good management is key...finding the right program for your horse and being consistent with it...at least it has worked wonderfully for the five cushing horses I know. I hope you find the answer to all your questions and Lady gets over her problems soon. These older horses really need our love and care when they get these geriatric problems. I am so grateful for pergolide....ceproheptadine (believe correct spelling) used to be used for cushings, but it evidently wasn't near as effective. |
| Member: Cheryl |
Posted on Sunday, Nov 5, 2006 - 10:39 am: Diane - that is what I was hoping. We've had several single digit nights and probably a couple weeks worth of temps in the lower 20's. I will start letting Rob and Fox out while I clean their pens - That will get Lady out of the barn for about 20 - 30 minutes. There is very little grass in the pasture - so they should be OK. Thanks for that information.Lynne - thanks for the ray of sunshine Other than the founder - and looking like a reject from the bone yards - she is doing fine. She is bright eyed - interested in everything going on - Still penning her ears and snaking her head at Fox - and eating vast quantities of hay. I just added oil to her feed - didn't faze her at all - still glomming it all down. She isn't getting any form of sugar - plain beet pulp with Accel and the oil with her pergolide. Hopefully getting out and walking around some will encourage her feet to heal. Cheryl |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Sunday, Nov 5, 2006 - 10:50 am: Primarily it has to quit growing rapidly. Low temps and DrOught are the two primary reasons but it depends on the specie as to when this might happen. Exercise is important for the health of the foot but it should not be started until the horse is sound.DrO |
| Member: Savage |
Posted on Sunday, Nov 5, 2006 - 3:00 pm: Dr.O I have an odd question, If Cheryl's horse isn't ready to get exercise, would it be possible to palpate the frog to get some kind of flow? Or doing some light massage on the leg all the way down to the coronary band? |
| Member: Savage |
Posted on Sunday, Nov 5, 2006 - 3:03 pm: Oops hit the send button to soon, to continue my thoughts, IF the foot isn't overly sensitive to pain? |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Nov 6, 2006 - 6:32 am: Would it be possible(?), sure, the question is would there be a benefit. I am sure the pressure on the frog would not be enough to create a benefit. The coronet is less certain however. It will not help those tissues in the hoof wall that are damaged but it may stimulate a more rapid growth but even standing in a stall and walking around a little may be so much more stimulation than what can be practically done that the help not significant. If stall resting is still required I would ask if hand walking several times a day wouldn't be possible this is likely to be more help.DrO |
| Member: Cheryl |
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 7, 2006 - 10:46 am: JoJo sent the web site for safegrass to another posting. I had been trying to remember the addy - Apparently if there are frosts and hard freezes - and the grass remains green - it is stuffed full of sugar. It stays that way until it turns brown. If this is correct - that means the grass won't be safe all WINTER ? ? ? Right now Robbie and Fox are stuck in little pens that are a mucky mess. There is no way I can keep them penned up like that much longer.Lady is getting 0 exercise. She goes out of the barn to drink and right back in - probably less than 10 steps total. All four legs are stocked up from just standing. This has been going on for at least 3 months now - The farrier will be here on the 14th - hopefully we will be able to figure some way to relieve her pain. If it's OK to hand walk her I will certainly do that but she is far from sound??? Cheryl |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 8, 2006 - 6:48 am: Hello Cheryl,As I have written before, I do not put a lot of store in the Safegrass site. Micro-managing the nonstructureal carbohydrates (NSC) in the grass is not clearly indicated and not something I have ever had to do to keep a horse comfortable. Run a search on Safegrass for a more detailed critique. But back to your situation, where your horse is not on grass. She is a condition of 3 may still be loosing weight, remains chronically sore on the front, and possible symptoms of serious undiagnosed systemic disease. How is the ventral edema doing? Currently you are feeding each meal: Brome (?) hay free choice 1 3/4 cups Beet Pulp 8 tbl Super 14 2 oz Accel But I cannot readily find above how many meals do you feed daily? Is the beet pulp 1 3/4 cup dry? Though limiting weight and possibly carbohydrate is important while a horse is foundering, to be a condition 3 suggests that the nutrition plane may be so low to prevent proper healing and immune function. I would like to slowly work this horse back up to a condition of 4/5. I really think you need to radiograph the front feet Cheryl to get an idea of the position of the front coffin bone with an idea that if it is pinching the sole it needs to be derotated. The importance, evaluation, and treatment for this problem is explained in Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis » Rehabilitation and Derotation of Foundered Horses. DrO |
| Member: Savage |
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 8, 2006 - 2:23 pm: Ah ok, thanks for answering that Dr.O
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| Member: Cheryl |
Posted on Thursday, Nov 9, 2006 - 7:55 am: Dr. O - I'm trying to figure out a way to pull another $300-$400 out of our budget for the radiographs - Since even Lady can't eat the hay off our field we are having to buy hay which is turning out to be really expensive.I have been pushing as much feed at Lady as possible. She is fed twice a day 6 AM and 5 PM -I upped the beet pulp - soaked - to 2 cups per feeding - I didn't re-order the Super 14 when I added the oil and bran - still receiving the Accel - She is starting to leave feed in her pan so will cut the beet pulp back to 1 3/4 cups. She is the rare horse that if she happened on an open bin of grain would eat a couple cups and leave. I haven't tried feeding her more often - which might be a way of getting more feed in her. At the suggestions above I took her off sweet feed and the alfalfa/grass hay we have in July - She was taped July 17 at 1000 pounds - which is a good weight for her - still ribby but other than that fine - October 11 - she taped at 888. Cheryl |
| Member: Cheryl |
Posted on Thursday, Nov 9, 2006 - 1:17 pm: Sorry Dr. O - completely spaced on the ventral endema - it's gone - started going down Saturday - nothing left at all today.The guy we buy the hay from said it is a mixture of timothy - orchard grass - these two in the majority - blue grass and reed canary grass - Lady doesn't touch the canary grass - but eats all the rest. She also left about half her feed this morning. CK |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Nov 9, 2006 - 6:41 pm: Great that is one less worry.Why not try a third feeding? Since she will not eat much at each sitting, add up what she is getting daily, increase it by a quarter, then separate it out into 3 feeding a day. If you could make small areas with fencing tape perhaps you allow some grazing to get costs down? 400 dollars for 1 good lateral radiograph of each foot? Geez Cheryl I try to stay out of discussions on veterinary costs but this is very high. I would not foist this upon you so strongly but I get called in on a lot of cases of chronic founder. These cases are ones that will not resolve when all other aspects of cause have been dealt with I find solar impingement by the coffin bone and correction without radiographs is tough as you have to both determine both an angle and where to cut to on the foot. The radiographs may come back normal but then the question becomes: what is really wrong with your horse? It certainly is not obesity or complication from excessive carbohydrates. Perhaps the Cushings but rarely do I find it not responsive to proper management and pergolide. DrO |
| Member: Juliem |
Posted on Thursday, Nov 9, 2006 - 9:11 pm: Well, I don't feel the obligation Dr. O is under to stay out of discussions about veterinary costs, so here's my experience. I have had lateral radiographs done on my horse with laminitis on several occasions, I've had laterals on each of my horses before initial shoeing, and have had to have laterals on several occasions when things like a hoof puncture or fracture were suspected. Never did one cost more than $30.00. Now, I haven't had one for two years, but the cost couldn't have gone up that much! And the vet I use is considered to be a bit over priced! (But you know, when my horse couldn't walk on Christmas day as a result of a laminitis flare up, he met me at the clinic to get him more comfortable right away.) At any rate, add in the cost of the office call and you're still not close to $400.00. I think many vets routinely charge $25.00 for laterals. Correct me if I'm off base Dr. O. Good luck, Julie |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Nov 10, 2006 - 7:00 am: That is a bit cheap Lisa we have an initial fee of 90 dollars for the first shot and then 25 dollars for each subsequent shot. The first covers set up, development, and time for review. I have seen then for as cheap as 30 dollars a shot in the past but the way those guys radiograph anything that moves they probably make it up on volume.DrO |
| Member: Cheryl |
Posted on Friday, Nov 10, 2006 - 8:30 am: No - the $400 should be for both - If it were for just one I wouldn't even be trying to figure out a way to do it - If it weren't for the hay problem it wouldn't be so bad - We just spent over $400 for the load we got yesterday Oh well - I will start giving her another feeding - I started letting Fox and Robbie out to nibble on grass - so far so good - Whenever they are out Lady has to go out of the barn so she can still see Fox so she is getting out for about 30 minutes a day now - She is a total mud cake from rolling - which she does every time she gets out. That is what amazes me - she is incredibly sore on her front feet and she is still just as happy as can be. The farrier will be here on the 14th so will call my Vet and see what I can work out. BTW - her water consumption is back to per-cushings level- probably about 5-6 gals per day. CK |
| Member: cheryl |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 12:15 pm: Up-date on LadyShe has been on pergolide, 1 mg a day since 10/21. On Vets instructions increased to 2 mg on 1/25. X-rays taken of both front feet on 1/24 (trying without success to get pictures of them) Farrier went by the clinic on his way out here - was instructed to lower heels and take off as much toe as possible. He said the LF coffin bone was tilted sideways and that the RF has a feathered appearance to the edges of the coffin bone with a shadow on the tip which the Vet thought might be a piece of dead, broken off bone that would have to be removed. She has blown three abcesses - one on the LF and two on the RF. The first on her RF was at the front center of the toe. The last one on the RF was right in front of the frog and is now about the size of a quarter - maybe a little bigger. When scrapped it bleeds. After trimming, during which she had blood dripping off her hoof, Tony decided he did not want to put shoes on her. Dr. Brown wanted her shod in Natural Balance shoes with pads and the dental impression material. Felt the covering would prevent the hoof from draining and that if a piece of bone does have to be removed the shoe would have to be pulled. He left pads to be taped on but wanted it left open to drain overnight. She is in much more pain than before the trimming. Is now standing with RF resting on toe most of the time. The pads apparently help some because after the pad was first put on the RF she would not pick up the LF. Later when I tried she picked it up with no resistance. She could not hold it up for more than about 30 seconds but she at least allowed it to be picked up. Since October she has been receiving 3/4 to 1.5 cups of oil a day - in 3 meals - with 3 cups of soaked beet pulp and 3 cups of LMF low carb feed w/o molasses. She has gained about 50 pounds and looks much better. The tips of her pelvis bones are no longer sticking up. She is still interested in everything going on - is certainly not depressed. She is now maybe a 4.5 on the scale instead of a 3. I do not understand the founder. She hasn't had any alfalfa since July. There is no grass - all we have now is ice EVERYWHERE. There is no grain in her diet but the problem with her feet continues and is progressively getting worse. I realize without the x-rays it is very difficult to provide an opinion but --- Given the information provided by my farrier, is this something that can be corrected and is it possible for it to improve to the point she will not be in pain? She has been receiving 1gm of bute daily since 11/24 - was on 2 gm daily from 10/23 - 11/23. I cut it down because I was worried about an ulcer and it doesn't seem to make any difference in her level of pain. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I have tried to call Dr. Brown with no response. I just don't understand what would cause the foundering to continue the way it has. Thanks, Cheryl |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 4:10 pm: Cheryl I feel so bad for you. I had a mare that foundered for no apparent reason and I just couldn't get it to stop. In hindsight I know a good part of her problem was the way she was trimmed. The farrier left a VERY tall heel on her and long toe. If only I knew then what I know now.Does she have seedy toe and or a stretched whiteline? My gelding that was abscessing had these problems and until they were addressed he was good for a abscess every other mo. I hope you find her problem, sometimes it is difficult to resolve. GOOD LUCK |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 6:45 pm: Cheryl your horse suffers more than just chronic founder, but chronic abscessing and I strongly suspect excessive thinning of the sole at the toe that would have been made worse if the instructions were carried out as you stated.Cheryl I want you to carefully read the article Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis » Rehabilitation and Derotation of Foundered Horses it explains, if I read your post right, why your pony has ended up bloody, why horses remain painful, and how to deal with each of the causes. DrO |
| Member: cheryl |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 28, 2007 - 1:00 pm: Thanks, Diane. Right now I just feel totally helpless.Dr. O - I read through everything I could find - I understand the shoeing with the EDSS system - used it on Fox - The bleeding was coming from the opening in front of the frog where the abscess broke through. The bottom of the foot is just about a flat surface right now. I'm thinking I need to get all pressure off her toe - Is this correct? Right now, if she is going to get any relief at all I'm the one who is going to have to do it. Would it help to tape a horse shoe on her reversed? If so - should it go on top of a pad or just on her hoof? I really need to do something to help today. And if what Dr. Brown had done was totally wrong - it doesn't sound like I'll get any help for her in that direction anyway. Any help you can provide will be very much appreciated. Thanks, Cheryl |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 28, 2007 - 3:58 pm: Cheryl when the mare I mentioned above had an abscess I rapped her hoof with a disposable diaper, then a ton of duct tape and put a whole roll of vet rap on top of that, it seemed to bring her some relief. If it is founder pain you are concerned with NOTHING seems to give them as much relief as the construction grade styrofoam taped on their hoof, if done correctly it usually gives immediate relief, my mare would walk sound with them applied. Good Luck |
| Member: zarr |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 28, 2007 - 5:32 pm: Cheryl, went thru much of what you are going thru and my heart goes out to you and your mare. Diane is right the trim is everything and the styroform really works . I also brought in very deep fine sand for her to standon rather than straw etc. My vet thought that might have helped who knows one is just so desperate to help you'll try anything. My farrier vanished at the start of our trouble and thanks to the fates I found a natural style farrier who came 60 miles to help.I would of paid the gas for many more miles just to get Ellie relief! Healing prayers Cindy |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 28, 2007 - 6:01 pm: Cheryl,I do not know if a reverse shoe with the purpose of removing pressure from the toe would be good or not. The problem is if you remove all support from the bottom of the foot will the bone rotate further? As cindy and Diane, and the article on founder discusses, distributing weight evenly on the bottom of the foot is usually the way to go. If solar infection is present soaks in betadine solutions and bandaging with betadine soaked cotton against the sole should help. These ideas can be put together. Cheryl we can discuss principles here but proper treatment of your horse depends on a exam and if you feel you have an an emergency situation you need to contact your veterinarian and perhaps also your farrier and together come up with a plan of action. DrO |
| Member: mrose |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 28, 2007 - 7:16 pm: Cindy, did you post somewhere re: your mare and how her feet were trimmed? |
| Member: zarr |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 28, 2007 - 8:36 pm: No Sara but have been going back over all my disorganized stuff to find!! Cindy |
| Member: cheryl |
Posted on Monday, Jan 29, 2007 - 7:33 am: Thanks Cindy and Diane. She is currently on saw dust - pretty much the same as sand. Before this last trim, I had her on the industrial styrofoam and it didn't seem to give her any relief.Dr. O I will soak her foot this morning. Have tried to call the vet four or five times - no call back - will keep trying. Thanks very much for your help. Cheryl |
| Member: zarr |
Posted on Monday, Jan 29, 2007 - 11:50 am: Cheryl you seem to have done most of what I did and more! It is very fustrating when you need help NOW and everybody is (understandably)busy with others.Hope someone here can give info that helps. Wish you both the best Cindy |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Monday, Jan 29, 2007 - 12:22 pm: Cheryl, the only other thing I can offer is when I put 1.5" or 2" styrofoam (which is the protocol) on her it didn't seem to help.When I got the 1" there was a big difference, I think the reason was the 1" had more give to it. Once she smooshed it down I added another 1" layer, and she was good to go. |
| Member: juliem |
Posted on Monday, Jan 29, 2007 - 1:22 pm: In regard to the foam--you can attach the first piece covering the entire bottom of the hoof with a second piece that only goes from the heel to the tip of the frog--this gives the support needed while taking some pressure off the toe. You will essentially have two layers of foam, the second will only cover about two thirds of the hoof. There should be an explanation of this on the www.hopeforsoundness.com web site. Good luck, Julie |
| Member: cheryl |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 30, 2007 - 12:22 pm: I tried this earlier and ended up losing the post twice so decided to wait until I was awake Thanks everyone for all the suggestions - I'm familiar with the hopeforsoundness site - have ordered from them - very helpful people. Dr. Brown FINALLY called back last night. He will be out today and plans to glue on shoes - have no idea what it will entail - just hope it works. Will take pictures after it's over. He also said he would have pictures taken of the x-rays and e-mailed to me - should receive them sometime today - Cheryl |
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