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Discussion on HYPP in N/N mare
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Member:
Sjeys
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 1:59 pm:
My Friend's Impressive line QH 16 yo Mare had a very scary episode on Sunday afternoon that we thought might be some kind of weird colic. All of her muscles tensed up (I mean completely raised, huge knots) and she was pulsating and very tender to touch along the right side of her back. Head down, really having a hard time walking, pawing, stretched out, etc.) She'd also gotten a bunch of large hives from rolling in stinging nettle).
10 cc of banamine and We brought her to the clinic and they kind of blew us off, thinking we'd over reacted. She seemed fine except she continued to pour buckets of sweat and then seemingly stabilized iwth about 20 liters of IV fluid.
18 hours later, the clinic fed her some alfalfa and she seized up again at the clinic, this time on the left side. They said it was quite impressive looking (see we told you we weren't crazy!  ) and gave her some more Banamine and DMSO. we also switched her to Timothy.
My question is this: could her QH Papers be wrong? Could she really have HYPP after all this time and not shown signs? The vet said if it isn't HYPP he has not a clue what's going on. Apparently it looks like HYPP but we are flabbergasted to the age of this mare the N/N on her paperwork.
I know (from articles) it can occur at "any age" but 16?
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Member:
Sjeys
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 2:07 pm:
The AQHA says that in the last 90 days two owners have reported symptoms in older horses that originally tested N/N before. Very weird.
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Member:
Heidih
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 10:52 am:
It might be worth it to have her tested again for HYPP. I know you can have the test run through UC Davis. It's entirely possible that there was a mistake on the test or that the wrong sample got tested or possibly that the breeder switched samples between horses. If it were my horse, I'd have the test re-run and if it's N/N again, then contact the geneticists at UC Davis and see if they have seen the condition. Good luck.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 11:23 am:
The symptoms described above sound more like a tying up episode than a HYPP episode.
HYPP is a genetic disorder caused by a defective gene. If the horse does not carry the gene they cannot have this disease. Of course as Heidi states the test or the horses papers might have been incorrect.
DrO
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Member:
Sjeys
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 12:55 pm:
We are having the horse retested. Her sire is N/N her dam is not out of Impressive. Her grandsire is dead and was not ever tested. Her grand, grand sire is Impressive.
The vet at Weatherford Equine (A premier AQHA facility here) says that he is 100% positive that this is HYPP. She has elevated K+ and elevated muscle enzymes in addition to the two episodes he personally saw over the last two days.
UC Davis was very black and white about her not having the gene and therefore she could not have the disease. This makes sense to me w/my limited background in science, but I also know that (as the vet told me) nothing is impossible.
In an ironic twist, my friend found her two babies (she'd been a broodmare) and bought one of them and is having him shipped up on Friday to Oregon. He is now 10 years old and is N/N with twice testing.
I completely understand the concern here that we are saying something that is outside the realm of known possibilities but I thought I should post in case there are others out there.
I will keep everyone posted on what we find out. Maybe there is a second gene or combination that is expressed with age that we are seeing that has not been identified. I don't think the Impressive line is very old...maybe we just haven't seen this yet in his offspring.
We are going to have the vet write up his results to send to them as a background for our request to have UC Davis take a look at this.
On the "tying up" I'm going to have to leave it to the vets who saw her at the clinic when she had the 2nd and 3rd episodes. What I saw was raised muscle mass on her right side and her skin around her flank literally pulsating and tender to the touch. I was shocked at how raised and knotted her muscle was in those areas. They described what they saw as a mild to medium form of HYPP. It certainly knocked my socks off and was one reason I suggested we send her to clinic since I'd never seen anything like it.
Thank you everyone for your comments.
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Member:
Stevens
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 3:02 pm:
Another possibility as you imply, although remote, is that your horse has a different genetic mutation than that which originated with Impressive. UC Davis is usually very clear that their test only detects the "Impressive mutation". There may be others that result in HYPP.
My mom had a genetic disorder that resulted in Gaucher's disease. When Scripps did her testing she had the one well-known genetic mutation associated with Gauchers, another that was "very rare" and yet another that had never been seen.
The gene pool is a scary place.
Good Luck,
Chris
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Member:
Sjeys
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 3:22 pm:
Thanks, it is not a lot of fun to be on the cutting edge. I hope that she does turn out to have been mislabeled (in spite of having N/N sire and N/N son) just because then we will know what we are dealing with. Already my poor friend has been hassled by everyone she has talked to and told it was IMPOSSIBLE without that gene to have it. I can't imagine the vet putting his reputation on the line and completing misdiagnosing HYPP instead of something easier like tying up. Sigh...will let everyone know what we find.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 5:12 pm:
It is not so much about possible / impossible as it is about definitions Susan. HYPP is a specific genetic disorder and if the genetic defect not present, it is not HYPP but some other disease. I like the idea of testing or retesting because the test when run correctly and functioning properly is very specific and selective for the disease.
Elevated enzymes would be expected with any muscle disease but the potassium (K) is a bit more enigmatic. But even if elevated this is not pathognomonic for HYPP because if there is remarkable cellular damage to the muscles you can get K elevation secondary to this. I would be interested in how elevated it is.
DrO
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Member:
Sjeys
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 6:31 pm:
Perfect about pointing out the definitions; this gives us all some room to help figure things out! I will ask her to post her labs; she is going to pick her up from the clinic today as she has not had another attack...yipee!
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Member:
Stevens
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 27, 2006 - 8:53 am:
Dr. O,
When I spoke to them, granted it was years ago, the folks at UC Davis were very specific that they only looked for the genetic mutation that was evident in Impressive. They also said that this test would likely not identify HYPP in other bloodlines if it were to occur.
I agree that HYPP is a specific genetic disorder but don't you believe that a mutation of some other gene could result in the same result or at least the same symptoms? I know that is the case in humans.
Chris
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New Member:
Hally
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 27, 2006 - 5:55 pm:
I would really encourage you to do a muscle biopsy for EPSM. I had a very similar problem happen with a young warmblood. I had lots of different answers from a lot of different people but in the end I had a muscle biopsy sent to Dr Beth Valentine. It came back positive! Her web site is www.ruralheritage.com . Tons of information and she is just a great lady!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 27, 2006 - 7:14 pm:
That would be possible Chris and if and when such a new defect is found we will need to redefine the current meaning of HYPP as it relates to equine medicine. How do you like the sound of type 1 and type 2?
DrO
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Member:
Sjeys
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 29, 2006 - 3:03 pm:
On EPSM, isn't that a Draft Horse disease? This is an AQHA. My friend who has this horse is moving to Oregon in about ten days, so her vet there will probably re-eval to see what he thinks. Thank you for your suggestion.
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New Member:
Hally
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 29, 2006 - 5:24 pm:
No this is absolutely NOT only a draft horse disease. It is shared by many breeds of horses QH being one of them. My horse is a Swedish Warmblood, the sire standing as an Elite stallion in Denmark and there isnt a DrOp of draft in either the Dam or Sire. Read the Rural Heritage web site I mentioned and see all the hundreds of people who are members that own every breed under the sun. There is no cure for EPSM but it is a very manageable condition. All it takes is a little perseverance and a change in diet. Even my vet was a bit skeptical until she received the biopsy report back from Dr Valetine. My horses has never tied up since I started his new diet. The biopsy is no big deal either. It just has to be done a certain way which Dr Valentine explains on her web site. Your vet can always contact her if need be. Good luck! Not that I hope the QH has EPSM however its a lot better than a lot of other unknowns.
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Member:
Hally
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 29, 2006 - 5:29 pm:
Oh also I forgot to mention, Dr. Valentine is at the College of Veterinary Medicine at Oregon State University so your friend and her horse will be real close!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 30, 2006 - 9:18 am:
The disease in QH's and other breeds is often known as polysaccharide storage myopathy (PSSM). EPSM and PSSM are very similar however in that they are both identified by abnormal glycogen storage. But I am uncertain if the mechanism for abnormal glycogen formation is the same.
DrO
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Member:
Stevens
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 30, 2006 - 10:42 am:
Dr. O,
Having had an Impressive bred horse, I didn't like the sound of HYPP aka "Impressive synDrOme" in the first place. I don't like the sound of type 1 and type 2 any better.
Actually, I "misspoke" in my original post; what I meant to say was that a different mutation in the same gene could have the same or very similar effect. That was the situation with my Mom.
Regards,
Chris
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Member:
Hally
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 30, 2006 - 12:15 pm:
Dr O,
There certainly is a lot of discussion among researchers about whether its EPSM or PSSM but in the end it is all treated the same with a change in diet which brings very good results. If it works does it really matter what the condition is called. Changing to a high fat diet (my warmblood gets 2.5 cups of corn oil a day) has prevented my horse from ever tying up again. That was 3 yrs ago and I have never had a problem since. A friend of mine is a warmblood breeder, has 4 stallions standing at stud and has has had a few cases of horses tying up. She never has done a biopsy on them but automatically switches them to a no grain, high fat diet. She learned this from her father who used to breed belgian drafts. He used to put them on a high fat diet long before this research was even in its infancy with great results. Its cheap (a bit messy) and it works.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 30, 2006 - 6:34 pm:
Yes, LLV we have been recommending oil diets for tying up horses for almost 10 years now and we cover our specific recommendations at Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Muscle & Tendon Diseases » Tying Up, Rhabdomyolysis, and Shivers (EPSM).
DrO
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