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  Discussion on Cushings and Nutrition
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2000 - 11:56 pm:

Does anyone have any pertinent information about nutrition and the Cushing's horse? I've been giving my 23 year old mare Purina's Equine Senior for years but it just doesn't seem (to me) to be enough to help her fight the ravages of Cushing's. She has chronic laminitis, is basically stall bound, has a cresty neck, gets no exercise and is slowly losing weight. The weather is getting colder and I'm concerned about her stamina to get through the winter.

Read somewhere that a cup of corn oil a day is good. Any other thoughts?

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2000 - 1:31 am:

Just lost a 38 yr. old gelding last spring. Not to Cushings, but lipomas that strangulated the intestines. However, the necropsy report ( we had a very thorough one done since we owned him for thirty years and had much curiosity about his general good health )showed some pituitary changes and a possibility of Cushings beginning. He suffered occasional bouts of anorexia or total disinterest in food. He continued to "suck" on hay, but for the last four years of his life he had no molars. There were occasional seasons of shedding problems also, but these seemed to coincide with the times of poor nutrition. He enjoyed Purina Senior for a few years, then refused it. We then proceeded to exhaust the total "senior" route. What solved the problem for us was Focus WT ( though I don't know if a frank Cushing's horse should have that ), about 1/2 scoop pelleted feed and sweet feed mixed, a scoop of Kwick ( pelleted hay ), and 1/4 cup corn oil. This was his twice daily feed, and we drenched it with about 3 cups of water which produced a mush that he loved. I must add here that we also began riding him again. We thought we were doing him a favor by retiring him, but apparently we weren't. He came back wonderfully, and shared three more years of fun before he died.

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2000 - 2:32 am:

Derry,

We would strongly advise DrOpping the supplement. These horses do not handle concentrated carbohydrates well. Read the label on your bag. Fat%+Protein%+Carbohydrate% = 100%. I think you'll find your feed is at least 80% carbohydrates.

THINNER is better for these horses. Feed hay ONLY, no concentrated carbohydrates (grain) and use blankets for the cold. If you are concerned about her weight, you can use a little rice bran (mostly fat) or corn oil. I'm sure Dr O must have something about this in his archives. Also, ask your vet about using medication for her Cushings. These horse respond VERY well to Permax (pergolide mesylate) and diet control. Good Luck!

Susan and Matt Frederick

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2000 - 9:27 am:

I thought that if you blanketed a horse with a winter coat, that the blanket caused the coat hairs to lay flat, thus negating nature's purpose for a winter coat. I always blanketed her when she was clipped, but she hasn't been clipped in years. I have a number of nice stall blankets but not quite sure about using them...

Permax doesn't always work. I've got it but have not given it to mare. I'm trying a natural product called Hormonise. It does seem to be working. Our biggest management problem is laminitis.

Regarding feed. I can see the reasons to DrOp Equine Senior. I've wondered whether it was fueling the laminitis. I'd like to give her something to nibble on (other than hay) just to break up her day. I'm looking for LOW carbs, right? Other feed suggestions? Will start her on corn oil TODAY.

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2000 - 10:11 am:

Hello Everyone,
Susan, you need to revise your thoughts. Being a farrier you see those withe founder as a complication but the majority of these horses do not suffer from founder. To leave concentrates out of these horses diets may complicate management, exacerbate the weight loss, and result in nutritional imbalances. For those with founder it needs to be reduced as much as is practical.

Elizabeth, I have redone the links in the article on Cushings to better direct you to pertinent information on managing the Cushinoid Horse. Review the article, study the links, and you will be up on managing these cases.
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2000 - 2:17 pm:

Dr. O,

We always find your posts thought provoking. We enjoy the free exchange of information and ideas on your board. However, we stand by our comments about the senior feeds. Derry's horse has chronic laminitis that is not responding to treatment/management. That is the only reason we answered her post. We manage 44 (at this count) Cushingoid/laminitic cases. They (the LAMINITIC Cushingoid cases) cannot handle the concentrated carbohydrates. Particularly the senior type feeds. We have found that they WILL worsen the Cushing's symptoms including the laminitis. It would be interesting to check their bloodwork (including glucose and insulin) on/off the senior feed.

To Derry,
Where did you read that Permax doesn't work? 22 of our 44 cases are on the drug. (20 had their laminitis resolve, two have been on the drug only 2 weeks so we can't include them). It's great that you like the hormonise and think it's helping, but if the laminitis has NOT resolved, then in our opinion, it is NOT working. Try the Permax that your vet recommended. We have found that people who say that the drug does not work 1) did not use a high enough dose and/or 2) did not use it long enough and/or 3) did not use concomitant diet control. Good luck with your horse!


Susan and Matthew Frederick

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2000 - 3:29 pm:

Dr. O,

Yes, death does come to us all. That doesn't mean we give up without a fight or that we ever quit learning or empowering ourselves. To everyone regarding Permax: All I am trying to say is that it doesn't always turn things around. It really is the only affordable, alliopathic treatment for Cushing's available and it sounds like it has helped a number of horses. I don't think it's a bad thing to explore alternatives, however.

I am slightly confused as to the consensus about what to feed my mare besides good hay. She is able to graze some each day before she gets tired and lays down. I'd like to give her something in her bucket twice a day, if for nothing more than to give her something to look forward to. It would be nice to have something to poor the corn oil over too! We've stopped apples but still give her several carrots a day.

So, carbohydrates yes/no? Protein? Fat? Other ideas? I'm willing to make about anything to make her happy. She's been on Equine Senior for years, but something is telling me that I should take her off it and try something else.

This is a wonderful web site.

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2000 - 5:01 pm:

Susan as long as your comments are directed at those suffering from founder I do not disagree that rapidly digestible carbohydrates need to be watched carefully. But your caution about senior feeds (at least in the case of Purina's feed with which I am most familiar) does not seem justified in both a logical sense and in my experience.

I use this product, usually in combination with vegtable oil, at pretty high levels on all geriatrics who have problems maintaining weight, many of which are Cushinoid and have poor dentition. The analysis would indicate that the feed would be preferable to other concentrates if founder is the concern: it is surprisingly low in energy density.

It has a high protein (14%), moderate fat(4%) formulation yet only attains 1.2 Mcal/lb energy level. This is is more comparable to good quality grass hays in total energy (appx 1 Mcal/lb) than grains (appx 1.7 Mcals/lb). It may have less digestible energy from carbohydrates than grass hay since more of this energy is derived from proteins. Of course this is just the logical argument and not proof of the position. It just is my experience this is a good feed for older horses, Cushinoid or not, that have trouble maintaining weight.

Whenever I have a founder of any cause I stop all concentrate until the founder is under control. But following a return to soundness I would not have any qualms at beginning Equine Senior, particularly if overall condition or chewing is a problem.

To get back to Elizabeth's statement/question. For a discussion on my views of alternative medications see, BULLETIN BOARD members only: The Lounge: Kick back and relax.: Alternative Medicine and Epistomology. We have discussed the points you raise here in depth.

Concerning the specific recommendation of what to feed your horse, there is no way we can accurately do that. We cannot examine your horse, his history, and your feedstuffs to make an informed judgement. What The Advisor can do is provide you with facts and then you take them and apply them to your situation.

We do recommend the horse with active founder have the concentrate stopped, including carrots, in all but the most unusual circumstances.
DrO
Member:
Vhascup

Posted on Thursday, Aug 21, 2003 - 8:40 am:

Dear Dr. O: I have been reading with great interest these discussions re laminitis and cushinoid horses. I have a Morgan gelding age 18 who just foundered, who does not have Cushings. He is quite cresty, but blood work revealed ACTH levels as normal, but insulin levels as high. His thyroid TSH level revealed a slightly low thyroid functioning, and he has been on supplement for that. His founder symptoms were somewhat atypical; he was only slightly lame in the right front foot, and it was initially diagnosed as a stone bruise. He became very much worse 10 days later, and the shoe was pulled and x-rays taken which revealed a significant degree of rotation in the coffin bone. He had corrective shoeing immediately, was started on isoxuprene, bute and banamine; and the following day, foundered in the left foot. He has been on Equine Senior for a year or so, and my vet said it was an excellent high quality feed, especially for older horses. That amount has been reduced, and his sweet feed/beet pulp wet mixture that he was getting at night was removed, and he was also placed in a paddock without much grass. The vet said he can have plenty of good quality hay. My point is that as you stated, the exact cause of laminitis is not known, and therefore there is no definitive treatment to date. It is based on experience and trying to see what works. My vet stated that even the "experts" cannot agree on what is the best choice of treatment, and there are numerous theories out there. Let's all support active research for this destructive disease.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Aug 24, 2003 - 7:41 pm:

Important to realize is that for many of the conditions and disease you reference, clinical signs and history are more important than laboratory tests where the results are uncertain as to their significance.
DrO
Member:
Jvecsey

Posted on Monday, Mar 20, 2006 - 9:06 pm:

My pony mare was diagnosed with Cushings 11 years ago. For 9 of those years she was on Permax (human) 3 mg per day. New vet explained pergolide was much cheaper and surprised at dose. He put her on 1 ml (equivalent of 1 mg) Pergolide last October.

She is now 27 and even before the switch to Pergolide, she was beginning to get ribby. Once in while, she had a little liquid diarrhea mixed in with manure.

She has continued to lose weught (or muscle mass) and diarrhea precedes well formed manure.

I have increased her Purina Senior (I always was a low grain feeder). She gets good grass hay. I have added beet pulp, sunflower seeds. Her teeth were power floated (last guy did not do good job), and ran her through a Panacur Power Pac in addition to her regular deworming.

Any suggestions?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 21, 2006 - 10:22 am:

Hello Joan,
Begin by reviewing the article on problem keepers at Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Weight Loss in Horses » Overview of Chronic Weight Loss. You will find solid recommendations for feeding and management. Also you might want to look at Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Diarrhea in Horses » Diarrhea an Overview. After reading if you have questions you should begin your own discussion in either of those forums or this forum.
DrO
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