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Discussion on Question on dragging hind feet
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Friday, Aug 25, 2006 - 10:18 am:
I purchased a young (4-yo) QH gelding last April. He has been pasture boarded with friends in CO while we made preparations to get settled here in KS. He is a "bucker," and was apparently broke using natural horsemanship methods, and was sent to a trainer in Nebraska for awhile, and, I think, used on a feed lot . . . still bucks.
I visited stopped and saw him on our way to KS, and noticed that the toes of both hinds are worn down and squared off. I was going to trim the horse, but he had worn his toes down so short, he didn't need to be trimmed. I am due to return to CO and pick him up within the next two weeks.
When I mentioned that I thought he might have some back trouble which may be responsible for the bucking and the squared-off hinds, the trainer at the facility said, "No, it's just laziness. I can take you to several farms around here that have horses with squared off toes due to laziness." Over the past 38 years of horse ownership, I have had my horses pastured with free-choice shelter, and none have dragged their hind toes.
QUESTION: What do you folks think about having a young horse who is not in work and is on pasture turn-out with about 15 other horses . . . who has squared-off toes due to dragging? Have you seen this in your own experiences?
My plans for this youngster are to take him back to round pen basics and to saddle him up and do some ponying with him, something he hadn't done before being ridden, before riding him again. Apparently, he gets a mite "frisky" when being saddled, which, along with the toe dragging, tells me that it might be something physical.
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Friday, Aug 25, 2006 - 11:03 am:
My gelding was a toe dragger. Barefoot behind, out 24/7 with shelter. Perfectly squared toes and my shoer did not trim him that way. He is not however, a bucker.
I always attributed it to laziness, and although he is fairly laid back, I have since diagnosed him with EPSM. We did the full muscle biopsy so its pretty conclusive.
Since the diet change he still drags his toes at times but he no longer squares them.
Not sure if this applies but there are some similarities.
Shelley
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Friday, Aug 25, 2006 - 11:59 am:
Thank you, Shelley, (and Cheryl on the EPM? thread). I have never had to deal with the possibility of EPM or EPSM before, so I guess it's time I investigate all the articles and find out as much as I can, just in case. I don't know whether to hope there's a physical explanation so I can treat it and not have to deal with the bucking, or whether to hope it's an attitude problem that may only need revisiting basic training and won't involve medications/special diets.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Aug 25, 2006 - 4:32 pm:
Ignore this interruption everyone.
Holly, my emails to you are bouncing back today.
?????
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Friday, Aug 25, 2006 - 11:33 pm:
Gee, Angie . . . I'm sorry . . . I'm not sending them back, honest. Don't know what's up. Keep trying.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 26, 2006 - 3:13 pm:
Holly are the feet long or unbalanced?
DrO
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Member:
Lexi
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 26, 2006 - 4:01 pm:
Hi - my 3 year old squared off his hind toes, dragging was more noticeable on turns and he has now been diagnosed with wobbler synDrOme (CSM)I hope this is not the case for you but just a thought. Good luck - hope it is just idleness.
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Member:
Ryle
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 26, 2006 - 6:31 pm:
Dragging his toes can be due to a number of problems. If you are really interested in him have a prepurchase exam done to determine if the problem is from soreness somewhere or if he actually has a neurological deficit. This will give you better information to use in your considerations of whether or not to purchase him and how to proceed in dealing with the issue.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 26, 2006 - 6:44 pm:
Thanks, Cynthia . . . ummmm . . . but I purchased him in April . . . because I knew he had the bucking problem, and he has good breeding and he was going to a sale . . . and, well, I just didn't want to see him snatched up as a show prospect and pushed into showing and cowboyeeeeed and tossed from one owner to the next (or worse) which often happens with well-bred horses that have "issues."
Anyway, Dr. O., the feet are balanced, and even the fronts weren't long enough to warrant a trim; not chipped up or flaring. I am sure he will be ready for a trim when I get him within the next two weeks. We had him do some pivots on the leadline and he seemed to be "confused" on one hind. It's the combination of the bucking and the dragging that has me concerned, and that the bucking could be a result of physical discomfort and not attitude. He is the first (only) horse to come to a person when a human enters the pasture. I was told that he is okay at a walk under saddle, but when he starts to get into trot, his head goes up and he gets really agitated, wild-eyed and explodes. I haven't seen this for myself. That's why I was going to start him over again from the ground to make sure there weren't any "holes," and then put him under saddle while I was on top of another horse . . . and pony him at walk, trot and canter . . . to see if he still bucked without a rider.
I appreciate all of your feedback, and it looks as though I will need to have him evaluated by a vet when I get him back here to KS.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 27, 2006 - 8:12 am:
Definitely is going to take a careful evaluation to straighten this out and the confused hind leg statement is worrisome.
DrO
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Member:
Sdms
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 27, 2006 - 7:43 pm:
Hi Holly! If you're interested I have a very good chiropractor that (I believe) does work down that direction, too. He's very reasonable and has done wonders for Cracker in the past. He also won't do an adjustment on a horse that doesn't need it. It might not hurt to have him take a look.
~Sara
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 27, 2006 - 10:07 pm:
Hey, Sara,
Thanks a lot. I don't know what to say about the chiropractor. I know that I am skeptical about chiropractic, anyway (much to Mark's dismay) . . . but if I knew that it was a musculoskeletal problem, I might try it. A friend has offered to come down to Elizabeth, CO, when I am there, and do a neuro eval . . . and I'm debating whether or not to have the gelding tested there in CO or to bring him home to KS and spend some time observing him first. I am interested to know whether or not there is a high incidence of correctly diagnosed EPM in CO. . . . Not sure what is the best course of action because I don't really know the horse . . . just that it seemed unusual for a 4-year old to have the back toes so worn . . . and then with his history of bucking. I'm planning to see you and your new home sometime between the 9th and 13th. I'll let you know when I'm coming . . . have several folks to visit while I'm there.
Thanks for the suggestion, and I'd like to hear from some other HS members about it.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Aug 28, 2006 - 8:10 am:
We recommend a treatment plan be formulated after a exam and a attempt at a diagnosis is made.
DrO
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Member:
Ryle
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Posted on Monday, Aug 28, 2006 - 10:38 am:
Holly,
Sorry, missed that you had already purchased him, but the recommendation for a good lameness and neurological exam still stands especially since you say he got "confused in his back end". Until you determine what type of problem he has you can't begin to formulate a plan for either diagnostic testing or treatment without the risk of wasting a large amount of time and money. Once an exam has been performed and the vet has determined whether it is a lameness issue or a neurological issue, then they will discuss your options or diagnostic testing and then appropriate treatment options. There just isn't a single treatment for "toe-dragging and knuckling". And should this be a neurological condition, the longer you wait to start treatment the more time there is for permanent neurological damage to occur.
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Member:
Sdms
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Posted on Monday, Aug 28, 2006 - 6:09 pm:
No problem, Holly. I agree with the plan to have him thoroughly checked out by a vet. Even though my chiro wouldn't work on him if the problem weren't chiropractic it would be a shame to have wasted both your time and his.
I can't wait to see you when you get to town! Mark was updating me on all your new farm toys and I'm SO jealous! Hopefully, when you get here we'll have the floors completely finished and the cabinets may have arrived. Keep your fingers crossed.
~Sara
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