|
|
Discussion on Questions re: most likely WLD...
|
| Author |
Message |
Member:
Leec
|
Posted on Sunday, Aug 27, 2006 - 9:31 pm:
Hi Dr. O
When the farrier trimmed my mare’s feet prior to re-setting her shoes, he discovered an inch wide soft spot at the toe in the white line. He dug out 'cheesy' material and did not hit anything 'solid' upon inserting a horseshoe nail all the way up into the opening. To back track for a moment... my mare has had about a 3/4" horizontal line growing down this hoof since last December. Another farrier told me it was probably from an abscess that burst at the coronary band and the line would grow out – this most recent trim is the one that completely removed that line. Unfortunately, the farrier who did this most recent trim has had no experience with what he thought might be WLD. All he could do was dig out as much crud as he could, pour Koppertox into the 'hollow spot' and put the shoe back on for protection. The next morning I discussed what we'd found with my vet and she agreed by my description that it is most likely WLD and if so, we will have to basically do as your article on WLD states - pare away the undermined wall and the unsound tissue beneath it and treat daily with a strong antifungal product. This morning the 'bad' hoof was noticeably warmer than her other 3 and there is a new 1/2" wide crack just below the coronary band. When I knock on the hoof wall it sounds hollow in a 2" wide strip from the coronary band down to the shoe at the toe. My mare is not lame on this foot (yet). Tomorrow my vet and a farrier are going to go to work on it. In the meantime, I have a couple of questions... If the horn has to re-grow from the coronary band and my mare is not lame, can I still ride her, or would I be risking further complications? I read your article re: hoof horn quality – would you recommend I use Biotin and Methionine to encourage stronger and faster hoof growth in this situation? You made a point in your article about the horse ideally having 8 hrs of exercise/day. My horses usually have a combination of exercise (by human) and/or turn out of 4 – 8 hrs/day (weather permitting). At night or when it is really wet, they are in 20'x30' paddocks (never confined to stalls). Do you feel this arrangement allows them to move around enough to keep their feet healthy?
LeeC
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Monday, Aug 28, 2006 - 7:56 am:
Concerning exercise it will depend on how good a hoof they have when done, so it is best to ask this question of your farrier/veterinarian after they get done. I don't think the WLD itself is an indication for biotin / methionine, I would follow the indications in the article Care for Horses » Hoof Care » Care of the Hoof: an Overview. Lastly, I think that sounds like adequate exercise.
DrO
|
Member:
Leec
|
Posted on Monday, Aug 28, 2006 - 11:52 am:
Thanks for your reply Dr. O. I read the article you suggested and nothing jumped out at me regarding my horses' care that should pre-dispose them to poor hoof quality. I'm understanding that WLD can affect any horse, even those with the best of feet. My thought on the biotin/methionine was more to use temporarily to encourage my mare's 'bad' foot to regrow faster. As our days are getting shorter and cooler, foot growth in our area slows down considerably.
LeeC
|
Member:
Leec
|
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 6, 2006 - 1:14 pm:
Hi Dr. O.
The vet did not like the looks of my mare's foot one bit and decided to take x-rays before cutting anything away. The x-rays were not encouraging. Her coffin bone had rotated and the 'hollow' areas were extensive. The vet consulted with other vets and farriers and from what they could (or couldn't) see on the x-rays, agreed it was the worst case they had ever seen. What is amazing is my mare was not lame. The x-rays showed she has thick soles, so perhaps that helped. Prognosis for her being sound in the future was not great given the amount of foot that would probably have to be removed combined with the rotation of the coffin bone. The vet also said she would prefer to do this particular case on the operating table, should I choose to proceed... I was faced with a similar decision last year with my now yearling filly - the time, energy and money (not to mention the emotional beating) I put in to save her life was overwhelming. I almost collapsed at the thought of doing it again, however the thought of this wonderful mare not getting a chance got to me more. Then the vet did something that I still cannot believe. She volunteered to take on 'Project Hanah'. She has taken on this horse at her expense for the next year (or until the foot grows out if all goes well). She felt that I have had enough horse heartache to last a lifetime and she wants the opportunity to learn from this extreme case and is game for the challenge. Her goal in the end is to give me back a sound horse. If she is not completely sound, but can be ridden lightly we will donate her to some place where she can still be useful (therapeutic riding), as she is so quiet and well trained. So, Hanah went through her procedure on Saturday. The foot was as bad as the vet expected, but not so bad that there was no hope - she was prepared to possibly euthanise her on the table, which I gave her permission to make that call as Hanah's 'guardian'. So far, Hanah is the best patient she has ever had, which was one of the deciding factors in her taking this on. She is definitely the most sensible, kindest, politest mares I have ever known. She will remain at the clinic for 2 more weeks and then she will go home with the vet until she is completely healed. I know, more of a story than a question, but still feeling pretty emotional about the whole thing, so had to share it.
LeeC
|
Member:
Canter
|
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 6, 2006 - 1:53 pm:
Wow, Lee. You have one heck of a wonderful, careing and kind hearted vet! What a wonderful generous thing to do for you and for Hanah.
I wish you, Hanah and your vet all the best as Hanah recovers from her surgery and I will keep my fingers crossed for her recovery.
|
Member:
Lilo
|
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 6, 2006 - 1:53 pm:
How kind of the vet to take on this project. All the best wishes for a good outcome.
Lilo
|
Member:
Paul303
|
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 6, 2006 - 9:21 pm:
How very wonderful!
|
Member:
Erika
|
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 6, 2006 - 10:57 pm:
Bravo, Lee for your wonderful vet's caring donation of time. Wishing you a speedy recovery.
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Thursday, Sep 7, 2006 - 9:26 am:
Take heart Lee a 'not great' prognosis can still mean a good prognosis and that your horse is not lame strongly suggests your horse should come through this fine. I cannot think of any reason why this should not be so, if the problem is WLD. The rotation is most likely not do to damaged sensitive laminae but pulling away of insensitive wall undermined by the WLD. This type of rotation has a much better prognosis for correction than the type seen with founder.
DrO
|
Member:
Leec
|
Posted on Thursday, Sep 7, 2006 - 11:07 am:
Thank you everyone for your encouraging words and support. We only have two horses, Hanah and a 17 month old - when you lose your only riding horse, it feels like you've lost a limb...
Dr. O., the vet is much more optimistic now than before she went in. She takes no short cuts and is very driven. If anyone can make this mare sound, she can - just as she did my filly last year. We are going out to see Hanah tonight and I'm hoping to time it for when she is there changing the bandages. I have seen pictures of milder cases, so am curious to see how Hanah's differs.
I couln't resist, here is a pic of Hanah 2 weeks ago - now ain't that a sweet face? 
LeeC
|
Member:
Leec
|
Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 12:45 pm:
Hi All,
It's been a while, but for those who are interested here is an update on Hanah...
The picture is 17 days after the procedure (Sept 19), so is not all bloody and raw looking as it was immediately after. She was quite lame after the procedure - they went into some sensitive areas, but did not have to take away as much hoof as they thought they might have to. Sept 30 - Sound at the walk and at the trot circling to the left. Not dead lame, but some head bobbing at the trot circling to the right. The foot is clean and dry and the hoof is growing. Going to x-ray in 3 weeks to see where the coffin bone is at and consider a shoe. Oct 18 - Hanah stuck the 'bad' foot through the fence and cut the fetlock area quite badly and is lame again (from the fetlock injury) - vet is now more worried about this new injury than the original (Hanah is living at the vet's house). Oct 26 - Sound again! Fetlock healing well and hoof growing well (is getting a supplement to help with that). Now will move on to the x-rays and shoe - will update when I have the results.
LeeC 
|
Member:
Paul303
|
Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 1:21 pm:
Holy Mackerel!
|
Member:
Pbauer
|
Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 1:57 pm:
Lee,
That is a sweet face!
Thank you for the update. It's nice to know that, Hanah, is doing well. I know it's been
a long road, but well worth the time and effort.
Looking forward to the x-ray and shoe results.
Tonya
|
Member:
Erika
|
Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 4:07 pm:
Lee, so glad to hear good news. Looks drastic, but sounds like you're on the right track.
Erika
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 7:34 pm:
Thanks Lee, I would love to see one from the side too. Watch the edges, the margins of the debrided away wall, for a resurgence of chalky material.
DrO
|
Member:
Leec
|
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2006 - 10:38 pm:
Hi All,
Hanah’s latest x-rays (taken Nov 6th) showed much improvement! Yippee! The coffin bone has rotated about 20 degrees since Aug 29th and is now almost completely re-aligned. She had a trim last week and was a bit lame after, but she had not been trimmed in more than 10 weeks, so the vet was not concerned about her bit of tenderness. She explained that she left it that long as she wanted as much new growth on the foot as possible for support before being trimmed. At the moment she is going to leave her barefoot – her foot is growing faster than it is wearing and so she sees no need for a shoe at this point. Unfortunately, Dr O I have not had an opportunity to take more pictures (the side view you asked for). I do remember though when looking at it from the side, it was cut in about 3/4 of an inch deep at about mid-way up the toe. My vet has excellent pictures and is taking them throughout to document Hanah’s progress. She is going to burn me a CD of them and when I get the CD I will post the pictures you might be most interested in.
LeeC
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 6:20 am:
Super Lee, I certainly would love such a pictorial history it will help others with this problems.
DrO
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 10:21 am:
Lee, what great news! I'm very happy for you 
|
Member:
Jgordo03
|
Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 1:15 pm:
Lee, Wonderful news!! Keep up the great work! I would appreciate seeing the pictures of the progress. Next picture will be of you sitting on her ok...
|
Member:
Paul303
|
Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 3:32 am:
Oh boy, Oh boy, I can't wait!!!
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 10:46 am:
I know what you mean There's something special about sitting on the horse of your heart...feels like home We'll be waiting patiently for that picture!
|
Member:
Leec
|
Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 11:59 pm:
Okay...
'Project Hanah' update - she's home now! Yes, as of this past Saturday - best Christmas present ever! My long yearling's eyes nearly fell out of her head when she saw me leading her best friend (and half sister) down the driveway. I think I was more sad for Sienna than for myself when Hanah left, as I was thinking she was going to be without horsey companionship until next spring.
Hanah's not 100% sound (again, is sore after her most recent trim), but the vet feels she is well past the point of needing daily veterinarian attention, and will not be any worse off at home. The part of her hoof that was cut back to near the coronary band has now grown to halfway down her hoof. X-rays last week showed the coffin bone is right back to where it's supposed to be. The vet and I will discuss Hanah's progress weekly and she wants to check on her once a month for peace of mind and to continue her 'documentary'. Hanah is still barefoot and we would like to keep her that way if possible - the farrier that has been working on her will also continue to see her once a month. We are well into winter here now - the snow is knee deep in the pasture and softly packed in my paddocks. The run-in shelters are dry, so it is about the most 'sanitary' time of year for horses feet. If her hoof continues to grow at the rate it has been, it should be pretty much grown out by the time we get a bit of mud in April. Time will determine if she will ever be completely sound again, but I'll take whatever I can get of her!
Again, I want to thank all of you for your kind words - it sure helps to have so much encouragement. The vet went to burn me a CD of the pictures she has so far and discovered her burner is toasted... As soon as she gets it fixed, she'll get me the CD.
Will keep posting updates and the pictures when I get them.
Happy Holidays to you all!
LeeC
|
Member:
Santucci
|
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 8:02 am:
That's such wonderful news! Hanah is so lucky to have you and your exceptional vet!
|
Member:
Hwood
|
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 8:38 am:
What a long wait, Lee, and such great news. Merry Christmas!!! Look forward to the photo documentary.
|
Member:
Frances
|
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 9:35 am:
It gladdens the heart to hear something like this! Fantastic, Lee!
|
Member:
Jgordo03
|
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 10:20 am:
So Glad for you Lee and of course Hanah must be getting better just being home with you and her best friend.
|
Member:
Paul303
|
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 1:43 am:
Oh, My, Christmas has really arrived!
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 6:10 am:
Good News and Merry Christmas Lee,
DrO
|
Member:
leec
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 9:39 pm:
Okay, I finally have them – the pictures from 'Project Hanah'! I have included more than just pictures of her foot to give those who are interested an idea of the whole process. The blonde lady in the photos is Dr. Teresa Jacobson – she took Hanah on at her own expense and time, for which my husband and I will be forever grateful. Hanah was in her care from Aug 29 to Dec 16, 2006.
I have included brief descriptions of the photos:
001: Sept 2 - Pre-procedure at the clinic. Hanah had been wearing the blue boot since her shoe was removed on Aug 29th when Dr. Jacobson examined her foot following a visit from the farrier who found a 'hollow spot' at her toe. Teresa clipped a portion of the toe away, didn’t like what she saw, and so took x-rays. The x-rays revealed coffin bone rotation and to some extent, the amount of hoof wall that was undermined.
002: Prep in the stocks – someone looks very scared!
003, 004: The foot without the boot, as it appeared after the shoe was taken off and some of the toe clipped away on Aug 29th.
005, 006: Hanah in the surgery suite with Teresa.
007 – 013: Removal of the hoof wall.
014 – 016: Sept 8. Hanah is sore, but weight bearing on the foot. She is started on Farrier’s Formula to encourage more rapid and stronger hoof growth.
popjpeg{141377,014}
017: Nov 1. Sound at the walk.
On Jan 18, 2007 Hanah had another trim and the farrier and vet were ecstatic about her progress. I will take a picture this weekend of how her foot looks now and post it. It is amazing how much it has grown since Nov 1, 2006!
Lee C
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 - 7:46 am:
Excellent photos Lee and you have arranged them wonderfully. It really demonstrates how extensive the damage can be in some cases of white line disease and the importance of removing all undermined horn, wherever it leads you.
Though the procedure was certainly much easier on a unconscious horse and I have no doubt a better job when done so, we have removed that much wall with mild to moderate sedation and blocking the abaxial sesamoidean nerves. I put this in for folks where general anesthesia is not an option. I also suspect there are some equine individuals where this might be very difficult to do.
DrO
|
Member:
hwood
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 - 9:21 am:
Lee, thanks for the photo commentary.
Is that the farrier in the photos doing some of the work?
It looks like the horse was on the floor . . . and then he was on a table??!! Wow.
Glad the healing is going well.
|
Member:
erika
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 - 4:03 pm:
Lee, thank you, thank you, thank you for posting all of this!
It is still a possible procedure in the future for us, and it really helps to see the actual process and outcome.
I can't thank you enough!
And Dr. O, thanks for the note about sedation. I didn't know it was a "knock 'em out" procedure, and I'm glad to see that it isn't necessarily.
Lee, please thank your vet for all of us who have learned from her generous donation of time. Hope your horse recovers quickly--looks like a sweetie!
|
Member:
canter
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 - 4:36 pm:
Wow! Very informative and educational, Lee. Thanks so much for sharing. Continued best wishes for Hanah!
|
Member:
leec
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 - 11:21 pm:
Hi All,
According to my vet as well, the majority of horses are done standing, just as you described, Dr O. Teresa opted to put Hanah under because, well, since she had no budget or time constraints to work within, she took the comfort route. Hanah would have tolerated it as a standing patient, but I suppose there are many horses that might be difficult, even sedated. Not all horses come out of anesthetic well either – Hanah was fine about it. I don’t know if this is something a vet can guess at by the horse’s temperament?? I’m told that some horses panic and manage to hurt themselves, even in a heavily padded room, as they wake up disoriented and still feeling drugged in a strange place.
With regards to Holly’s observation, correct me if I’m wrong Dr O, but the horse is not lifted onto the table until the vet is confident they are completely out, true? She would have been lifted by the straps around her legs I assume (forgot to ask). Or perhaps the table portion could be hydraulic and hoisted up from the floor?? Holly, the other lady in the photo is another vet. I believe she has not seen much of this procedure, so she was there to learn.
I am glad the photos have been helpful – it is exactly why I wanted to share them. Prior to this happening to Hanah, WLD was only something I would skim over in vet books or articles. One of those things you think will never happen to your horse... When it did happen, I could not find any pictures that clearly gave me an idea of what it was going to 'look' like. In Hanah’s case, treatment was managed without fitting a special shoe on the foot. In some cases I would imagine a shoe would be absolutely necessary for support or to reduce wear. Her foot was, however, bandaged and in a boot for 3 weeks following the procedure. The bandage was changed everyday.
The best of luck Erika, if this is something you need to end up doing.
Lee C
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 6:36 am:
I believe they used the hoist to help position the horse over the table that then lifts out of the floor.
DrO
|
Member:
hpyhaulr
|
Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 7:05 am:
Lee,
what a fascinating education. God bless you and that wonderful vet.
|
Member:
frances
|
Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 10:02 am:
A table that lifts out of the floor - what a wonderful invention! I haven't heard of this, and it certainly sounds so much better than hoisting a horse through the air with all its weight on its fetlocks. It seemed to me that this would cause new problems and I've always wished an alternative method could be found. Hadn't thought of this!
|
Member:
jjet
|
Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 1:46 pm:
Lee, thank you for the great attention to detail and the extended follow-through on this thread. Great educational opportunity for us all! Your sweetheart does have that look that I love, of good-natured intelligence .
I'm so happy for your great outcome!
|
Member:
leec
|
Posted on Monday, Jan 29, 2007 - 12:12 am:
Hi All,
Here are some photos of Hanah’s foot from today (Jan 28th). Although she’s not standing on level ground, they still give you a pretty good idea of how much her hoof has grown since the procedure on Sept 2, 2006 (few days short of 5 months ago). She is pasture sound. I have seen her walk, trot, and gallop (bucking and kicking) across the pasture both uphill and downhill, and she is not lame under those conditions. However, it remains to be seen if she will stay that way once the foot grows out and she has a rider to carry... Will keep updating as Hanah progresses or if anything changes. Thank you all once again for your kind words and encouragement through this rather long ordeal!
Lee C
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Monday, Jan 29, 2007 - 7:07 am:
Looks very good Lee.
DrO
|
Member:
rein
|
Posted on Monday, Jan 29, 2007 - 12:31 pm:
Lee,
Is she still on farriers formula, and are you feeding the amount on the label? Looks great!
|
Member:
sunny66
|
Posted on Monday, Jan 29, 2007 - 3:51 pm:
Wow Lee!!! Absolutely fabulous
|
Member:
erika
|
Posted on Monday, Jan 29, 2007 - 5:31 pm:
Fantastic, hope it continues to do well.
|
Member:
ilona
|
Posted on Monday, Jan 29, 2007 - 7:53 pm:
Lee,
I have just looked at this thread, don't know how it escaped me....denial on my part I think.
Thank you for your dedication to the education of HA members. The pictures are invaluable and should I ever have to face WLD I will do so with knowledge of procedure and outcome. THANK YOU.
Please do let us know how Hannah does under saddle, when that time comes.
|
Member:
leec
|
Posted on Monday, Jan 29, 2007 - 11:34 pm:
Hi Michelle,
Hanah is still on Farrier's Formula at the advice of both the vet and farrier. They would like her to remain on it until her hoof has completely grown out. She receives the recommended amount for her weight.
Lee C
|
Member:
ilona
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 30, 2007 - 9:34 am:
What a great testament to Farriers Formula!
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 30, 2007 - 10:29 am:
I have been using Farriers Formula for years.. Great results when first needed it.. All horses have a lot of growth every 5 weeks for trimmings and very healthy hoofs..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
rein
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 30, 2007 - 12:06 pm:
Lee,
Thanks, I too have used it for a few ponies. Just wanted to enquire on the amount because of the great growth. I actually have been thinking of getting it again to help my gelding with his nasty cracks. Thanks again.
|
Member:
frances
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 30, 2007 - 1:40 pm:
I have used Farriers Formula for quite a few years too. I cut it down to half a cup recently as I noticed the bag said it should be fed at 5% of total feed, and my horse gets very little feed nowadays. Although I've no idea what 5% of it would be.
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 30, 2007 - 3:58 pm:
I do the loading dose for a new horse... then after its established.. I actually cut it down to 1/2 cup every other day!~ It still works wonders..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 6:37 am:
Guys, though we support the use of such supplements that contain adequate amounts of biotin and methionine and feel them helpful, they are not the whole or even the main reason for Lee's wonderful results.
It is the whole nutritional, care, management picture you see in those feet. If the reflection off the wall means anything the hoof wall appears to also getting some extra protection from the environment. I am sure the quality of the diet is also reflected in the quality of the hoof. Feeding hoof supplements will not make great feet, good care does and such supplements may or may not be part of that care.
DrO
|
Member:
ilona
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 1:38 pm:
I thought that understood Dr. O.
Just that the supplement was/ is effective and useful in addition to the entire care and management program.
|
Member:
rein
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 2:38 pm:
I understand that, but sometimes there's just that something extra that really helps.
Thanks
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 6:22 pm:
Not by everyone I am afraid, Ilona. There are some folks who believe that simply by feeding such supplements they can have great feet and many who don't know the vast majority of horses can have great feet with nothing more than overall good care without the supplement.
DrO
|
Member:
leec
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 9:32 pm:
Dr O, if Hanah has had above average hoof growth since September, as the days were getting shorter, can I expect even better than that, now that the days are getting longer? Lets say nothing else changes, ie; diet, exercise etc.
Lee C
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Thursday, Feb 1, 2007 - 7:07 am:
Though the changes remarkable to look at and the new horn looks very healthy (in the last photo you can really see the healthy junction of the wall and insensitive laminae) it really is not above average Lee.
It has been almost 5 months from the original injury and you have had about 50% of the length replace itself. If a hoof completely grows out in 9 to 12 months you are about average. I do think feet grow faster in the warm months Lee.
DrO
|
Member:
leec
|
Posted on Thursday, Feb 1, 2007 - 8:52 pm:
I should have been more specific... Above average growth for this particular horse compared to the same time of year 2005/2006. I can only compare 2 seasons, so perhaps 'average' was not the best word. To clarify, it is the temperature that has more to do with increased growth, as opposed to the longer daylight hours?
Lee C
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Friday, Feb 2, 2007 - 6:36 am:
We don't know Lee and to further complicate the picture is if the horse is barefoot there is greater wear during the dry months, making horses in mud and snow appear to grow faster since they wear less. In general chemical reactions, which is the basis of cell action and horn formation, runs slower when it is colder but this would need some scientific work for confirmation. I base my opinoin on slower growth in winter on the comments of farriers trimming shod horses in the winter.
DrO
|
Member:
leec
|
Posted on Saturday, Feb 3, 2007 - 8:12 pm:
Yes I see, too many variables to be black or white... I wonder if there have been any studies done - now the whole thing has piqued my curiosity! Has anyone out there read any articles on what Dr O and I have been discussing?
Lee C
|
Member:
mrose
|
Posted on Saturday, Feb 3, 2007 - 9:20 pm:
I haven't been following this post, and just read the entire thing. thank you so much for putting up all the pictures with your post. This has been very educational. I had no idea white line disease could do so much damage.
|
Member:
corinne
|
Posted on Sunday, Feb 4, 2007 - 6:21 pm:
I can't believe I missed this post either. What an educational pictorial of what WLD can do, the treatment of such and the recovery process. Amazing! Continued prayers for continued success!
|
Member:
quatro
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 - 10:47 am:
Hi Lee, Dr. O just referred me to your post, as Levi has finally been diagnosed with WLD by yet another vet. It makes me cry that the vet that was presented with these same symptoms in Sept. of 06, did not properly diagnose and treat Levi, so that perhaps he would not have so much damage.
He to has just about as much hoof removed as your horse. I will try to start a new post, so we can track Levi as well. He just got the procedure done yesterday, and is home for me to treat him. He is very lame, not really weight bearing today. I almost wish he could have stayed at the vet clinic, as it breaks my heart to see him so unhappy.
Thanks so much for posting, as I feel so much better seeing the improvement in your horse. I just wish there was something for us humans to make this easier.
suz
|
Member:
maggienm
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 - 11:37 am:
Susan, So sorry to hear about your ordeal. Hang in and keep us posted.
You're right about the posting here that teaches and encourages.
|
Member:
leec
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 - 9:24 pm:
As Lori says - hang in there, Susan. If he's standing at all it's a good sign. I was spoiled, as my vet took my mare home and cared for her for the first 2.5 months after the procedure. If you have any questions as to what exactly my vet did for the initial daily care, let me know and I'll ask her for specific details. It seems to me whatever she did, it worked. It was not just the vet work that helped Hanah progress - a farrier who specializes in 'problem' cases was and still is very much involved. We kept Hanah on the lean side (less weight on the foot) with low calorie grass hay just supplemented with Farrier's Formula. Once she became sound enough to turn-out daily, we pretty much have been feeding her the hay free choice (and still the Farrier's Formula) and she has faired well through the winter. Her farrier visits are every 6 weeks now as opposed to every 4 weeks at the beginning. I wish you the best of luck and if you have any questions, please ask them - none are dumb...
Lee C
|
Member:
quatro
|
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 - 10:40 pm:
Thanks Lori, I am going to try to post pictures tomorrow, need to figure out the shrink thing. My one question would be did she keep Hanah confined post procedure and for how long? And also Levi is very lame today, but hobbling around, how long did she keep her on Bute, and how long should I expect this severe lameness. He has been off and on lame for so long, poor guy.
thanks, I sure am worried I will mess this up.
suz
|
Member:
leec
|
Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 6:24 pm:
Hi All,
Hanah had a trim today and the Farrier is happy with her progress. She had a tiny bit of material in one spot that suggested fungus/bacteria might be trying to resurge, so he removed that. He felt it wouldn’t hurt to clean out the area once a day with salt water and a toothbrush, let it dry and apply Koppertox. The Farrier feels she will have a complete new hoof around June if there are no set backs. We still have lots of clean snow, but that could change in 3 weeks to mud... My Vet is paying us a visit in 2 weeks, so will discuss with her a plan to keep Hanah’s foot out of the mud. I will try and get an updated photo of her foot posted before I turn it green with the Koppertox...
Lee C
|
Member:
quatro
|
Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 10:25 pm:
Hey Lee, that is great news. I keep going back to your post when I get bummed out, and look at the remarkable improvement. Can't wait till I can see that with Levi.
I have ordered this hooftector boot to try on Levi, to see if it stays on his foot. When this snow melts we will have mud oozing all over the farm. If it works, and stays on, I will let you know, maybe it will be good for hannah to keep her progressing so well.
suz
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 7:40 am:
Salt water? Koppertox? Hmm...I would be looking to proven treatments like betadine and formaldehyde.
DrO
|
Member:
leec
|
Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 9:54 am:
Hi Dr o,
According to this Farrier, it is proven... He's had clients use the two with success in similar cases. What you mentioned is what I mentioned, when he said we should maybe put something on it. Anyway, he did say to discuss it further with my vet when I see her. So far everything he's done has worked, so I'm okay with his advice with the moment.
Lee C
|
Member:
leec
|
Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 12:31 am:
Hi All,
Here are some photos of Hanah’s foot from today. It is now a few days past 6 months since the initial procedure. The re-sected area has a slight greenish tinge due to the Koppertox I put on last night – forgot to take the pics first. I wish I had someone to hold her foot up while I took the he pictures, so you could better see the rim of the hoof. I tried to do both and although Hanah was cooperative, they turned out blurry.
Dr O, I was thinking about what you were saying about why we wouldn’t be using betadine and formaldehyde and I don’t know if this makes a difference, but the Farrier did mention there is some sensitive tissue in one area. Perhaps that is the reason for his treatment suggestion??
Lee C
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 8:21 am:
Thanks for the photos Lee. I would be surprised to have sensitive tissue exposed at this point (you can see it as sensitive tissue bleeds) and Koppertox should not be used on sensitive tissue either. As long as it stays clean, dry and no new cheesy areas form in the white line you can treat it with just about anything and it will be fine. Just watch for new areas of soft cheesy material.
DrO
|
Member:
leec
|
Posted on Monday, Mar 5, 2007 - 10:00 pm:
Oops, Dr O, my bad... I should not have said 'sensitive tissue'. He was scraping at an area and when Hanah started getting wiggly, he said, 'it's a bit sensitive right here, if I were to scrape this area any more, it would probably bleed'. Sorry for the inaccurate wording. When I discussed it with the Vet she said, 'the Koppertox is mostly for your peace of mind, although it won't hurt and can help' (she knows I feel better when I think I'm helping...).
Lee C
|
Member:
leec
|
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2007 - 11:29 am:
Hi All,
Just a quick update on Hanah re: her vet visit on March 15th. The vet was impressed with the amount of hoof growth since she last saw her, as well as how well she's moving on the foot. I told her I am concerned about the mud, but the vet isn't. She says the foot is sealed and I can continue to clean it well daily, so I can get a good look at it, and then apply the Koppertox. Nice to not have to fuss with trying to keep it clean and dry, but I cringe every time I see her walk through the muck...
Lee
|
Member:
quatro
|
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2007 - 10:32 pm:
Hey Lee, congrats on the good news with Hannah. I sure hope we can be on that same page some day. If you get a chance check out Levi's white line disease for an update. Not as good news as I had hoped for.
suz
|
Member:
leec
|
Posted on Friday, Apr 20, 2007 - 6:19 pm:
Hi All,
Well, we’re 2 weeks short of it being 8 months since Hanah’s resection. Her last trim was on April 12th and the Farrier was very happy with how the foot is coming along. It’s grown a bit bulgy on the side that has been doing most of the weight bearing, but he said that will clear up as the foot becomes more and more balanced. He commented that the quality of the new growth is excellent. She is still on the Farrier’s Formula, but down to half of what she was getting for the first 7.5 months. I stopped using the Koppertox 2 weeks ago when the ground dried up. Below are a couple of photos from today – didn’t notice how dusty her feet were until I saw them on my computer screen! Anyway, kind of just looks like a chip now. Maybe, just maybe Suz, we will be riding this fall! I hope Levi continues to recover without further complications – keeping my fingers crossed for you!
Lee C
|
Member:
dres
|
Posted on Friday, Apr 20, 2007 - 6:38 pm:
YAHOOO...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
|
Member:
quatro
|
Posted on Friday, Apr 20, 2007 - 6:45 pm:
Wow Lee, that looks great. I will keep referring to your post if ever I get discouraged.
Looks to me like you should be able to ride this spring!
Hope Levi continues to improve. He has been allowed out for a few days, and today he pulled off his opposite shoe. He has been 9 weeks out since that foot had been trimmed. But still. He is a pain in the you know where somedays!
He just hangs out for most of the day, then all of sudden they all go out on a super zoom around the yard! I think I will go back to short jaunts in the yard, and keep him confined for most of the time.
Give Hannah a hug for me from Levi too!
suz
|
Member:
zarr
|
Posted on Friday, Apr 20, 2007 - 7:24 pm:
Lee, what a beautiful dusty foot! Cindy
|
Member:
frances
|
Posted on Saturday, Apr 21, 2007 - 11:54 am:
Wow - so much better!
|
Member:
canter
|
Posted on Monday, Apr 23, 2007 - 8:13 am:
Just amazing, Lee. Can't wait to hear about your first ride...
|
Member:
leec
|
Posted on Monday, Jun 11, 2007 - 10:36 pm:
Okay, I'm a little behind here - my other horse has been sick and I've been away from home for a bit... Hanah had a trim on May 22nd and the farrier has given me the nod to go ahead and slowly start putting her back to work! Very exciting for everyone who's been involved with this little mare over the past 10 months. We are to start with walking only for 2 weeks, then walk trot and so forth and after 8 weeks if there are no signs of lameness, she should be able to take on anything. My only issue now is my young horse is sick and is not allowed to get worked up, which she would if Hanah was out of her sight. However, even just riding her around the yard and in the pasture will be a treat after all this time! Will post pics of the big day back in the saddle soon! Thank you all for your encouragement and support through this ordeal! Suz, I'll be heading over to your thread to chat about Levi in a sec...
Lee C
|
Member:
quatro
|
Posted on Monday, Jun 11, 2007 - 11:33 pm:
Lee & Hannah. Congrats on the good news. What is going on with your other horse? Have you posted somewhere else on what is going on. I am sorry that you are having other horse problems. Is it not enough for us to deal with one horse having troubles???????
Give Hanah a carrot from Levi and Me! And continued good news. My vet said I did not need to use the betadine any longer. I noticed you were continuing with a topical for some time. Was this something that your vet advised? I still dump some on his feet every other day, for my own precaution, or out of habit.
It will be a great feeling to sit proudly up on your girl, after all your hard work. Congrats!
suz
|
Member:
leec
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 9, 2007 - 4:58 pm:
Hi All,
I rode Hanah last Friday for the first time since August 22 of last year. It was only for 20 mins and just around the yard, but it felt like an overwhelmingly huge accomplishment! Unfortunately, no one was around to take our picture... Here's one of Hanah, though.
Dr O, I have some questions regarding conditioning Hanah based on the following; She turned 5 this spring. She now has a complete new hoof, which the farrier says is healthy. Her last set of x-rays showed the coffin bone re-aligned and she has been pasture sound on the foot at all gaits since January 2007. Her body score is about a 5 (her back is level, but her ribs are slightly visible). She is turned out on pasture not less than 5 hours/day. The terrain is mostly uneven and steep in some places, the ground is for the most part hard and rocky in many places. When not turned out, she has about a 30'x40' paddock with similar terrain/footing (some softer areas). With this information, I guess I'm trying to establish how out of shape she would be and how much work can I start her with. My only option at the moment is to trail ride her. Our area is hilly, so she will have to do some climbing. Based on the information I have supplied what would you suggest for length of rides to start? Should I just walk for the first week or so, or do you think the occasional trot or canter would be okay? Also, would it be better to ride her say 2 days, 1 off or equal amount of days, like 3 and 3? I do realise the horse will answer some of these questions herself, but Hanah is not usually very forthcoming about pain until it's really bad... I did read you article about conditioning, but I was hoping you might have some advice more specific to the disease she's recovered from.
Thanx, Lee
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 9, 2007 - 6:13 pm:
How wonderful Lee to see her under saddle again! I bet you are thrilled. She is very pretty under saddle...Have fun with her
|
Member:
quatro
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 9, 2007 - 10:10 pm:
Hey Lee, Hanah looks great. I am curious what Dr. O has to say as well. My current vet told me that Levi might be able to make a trail ride at the end of Sept. The current farrier said he thought he might be able to be lightly ridden after this trimming. I was wondering if I need to wait until the whole foot has grown out completely. Since this happened in February, and it takes like 9 months to a year to grow a whole foot, maybe it is wishful thinking to ride this fall.
Did you wait this long on advice from your vet, or your own choice?
I am sure you were sooo happy to be on board again.
suz
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 10, 2007 - 6:51 am:
Lee I am having a little trouble understanding your question(s). With respect to the foot the horse can do anything that a normal horse can. There is no reason to suspect residual weakness of the foot when recovered. Why would you expect pain? Why would you think trotting and cantering not prudent?
With respect to the cardiovascular or muscoskeletal system it is impossible to cover all the possibilities to come up with a firm recommendation like you should exercise for X length of time doing X work. Consider just the non-horse variables like the angle of the hills, footing, the heat, the humidity, all which would effect the outcome and may change from day to day what is prudent. You cannot substitute any specific recommendation for observing the horse and his response to the exercise like respiratory rate and effort, attitude, and appetite. If he breezes through and there is little in the way of recovery time you can press on. If he is struggling with the exercise and recovery slow you are over-taxing him. If you are looking for a bit more precise method of monitoring stress one of the best ways to evaluate stress and recovery is by keeping a diary of the signs already mentioned and the other vitals signs, for more see Diseases of Horses » First Aid » Taking Temperature, Pulse, and Respiration.
DrO
|
Member:
leec
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 10, 2007 - 11:38 am:
Hi Dr O,
Sorry for being clear as mud... You did answer my question - 'no reason to suspect residual weakness of the foot when recovered'. Not having a horse recovered from WLD before, I was not sure if the actual foot needed to be conditioned in some way to strengthen it. I guess I was looking at it like a muscle or tendon, so when not used for a while (and having recovered from an injury), then suddenly it is weight bearing, I wondered if too much work might cause pain in the foot. However, the way you've explained it, it sounds like Hanah can be conditioned as a normal horse would with 4 healthy feet.
Hey Suz,
After the coffin bone was in the right place and the foot itself was sealed and Hanah showed no signs of lameness, the vet left the decision up to the farrier. The vet last saw Hanah on March 30th and the farrier gave the go ahead to put her back to work on May 22nd. Her foot was still missing a tiny corner at that time, so I elected to wait. Because she doesn't have shoes on, I worried the foot might land not quite yet balanced (not according to anyone else, but I worry about everything). That missing corner will be more than gone with her trim in 2 days, which will make me comfortable with it. In your case, if you have a shoe to support the whole foot, you probably won't have to wait until the foot grows out as long as he's sound. That's just my guess...
Lee C
|
|
|
