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| Discussion on 4 mo old standing straight, feet getting clubby | |
| Author | Message |
| New Member: Jd1947 |
Posted on Monday, Aug 28, 2006 - 4:27 pm: Hello,I am new here and read the posting guidelines, so hope I am doing this right!! I have also read thru so many posts on epiphysitis that I am now totally confused, but I do believe my foals problem is 'apparent physitus' I have 3 foals on the ground ranging from nearly 5 months old to just turned 3 months old. The oldest and youngest are doing great...my middle baby is not. These are foals from Thoroughbred mares by Quarter Horse stallions. My problem foal, a filly, just turned 4 mo old. She and the oldest will begin weaning this week. We moved this past winter and the only way I can wean this year is the method I prefer, gradual weaning, but I'll have to keep the mares & foals together, so I am going to (try) using a new product called the EZEE Wean Halter. Both these foals are pretty independent from their mama's, so I don't expect any problems weaning...as long as this Ezee Wean Halter works!! I mention the weaning because I know I have to get my problem filly off her mama. Now to the problem...about 3 wks ago I noticed she was starting to stand straight on her front ankles. My vet came out and we drew blood, he gave her some IV antibiotic, banamine (she was showing signs of being in pain) and tetracycline. I thought for a few days after that, she might be getting a bit better, but I was wrong. We then gave her another dose of the Tetracycline (I know she's past the age it would do any good...but it was worth a shot) and I gave her oral banamine on & off for her discomfort. The blood showed she did have an overload of phosphorus, so we determined, a change in diet would be the cure. I have been feeding Nutrena Safe Choice with added supplements of Nutra Flax (1 oz daily) Super Muscle (from GP Direct) (1 oz a day)and about 1oz a day of wheat bran. The reason I used the wheat bran is we grow our own alfalfa hay, which is high in calcium, and the wheat bran brought the cal/phos ratio to where it should be. I have used this feeding program in the past few years with no problems. Just before this filly showed signs of getting straight in her front ankles, I switched to some grass hay we got from a field we grow hay on for someone else...there were about 20 extra bales, so I took it and fed it to my mares & foals. I did not realize that grass hay is loaded with phosphorus!! So, as I mentioned, we (my vet & me) figured if I stopped the grass hay, which by then was all fed out anyway, and began feeding the alfalfa again, and was sure the only phos she got was from the Safe Choice feed (0.75%) in time she'd get better. Well, it's a month now and not much improovement. What really scares the heck out of me is that her feet have begun to look like club feet. She runs and plays like a normal foal. There has not been any swelling or heat at all. My farrier shaved down her heels as much as possible. Now I notice she may be having trouble with one hind ankle...she'll stand with that one ankle propped, rather than stand square. My vet will be here tomorrow and we are going to pursue this in an aggressive manner. He'll take xrays and check her over...my farrier did flexion on her and as he is also a massage therapist, he also did the pressure points on her...she showed no signs of discomfort with the pressure points and her flexion was fine. As I mentioned, I did read all the articles on the site about this, but I really need some feed back and maybe with that and my vet, we can get her back to normal. By the way, she's not too fat, in fact body score is about perfect...being part TB my babies do grow fast, although I don't feed them to grow that way. She weighs about400 lbs. I look foward to replies from Dr.O and/or members...I have got to get this filly back to normal, and if we succeed in getting her ankles back to normal, will the clubby looking feet return to normal also? I'm sick about this development...is there any hope for my filly? Can you suggest what we should do? I did print out the article for my vet, he won't get mad if I give it to him to read...but I know he is going to research this on his own tonight...he's a good vet, and will consult with other vets and is open to suggestions. Help!! Thank you. PS...if it'll do any good, I can take photos of her to attach here. |
| Member: Dres |
Posted on Monday, Aug 28, 2006 - 5:36 pm: Yes, pictures will help hugely..On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
| New Member: Jd1947 |
Posted on Monday, Aug 28, 2006 - 9:05 pm: Hi Ann,Okie-Dokie... tomorrow I'll get some photos and post them. This one isn't good, but you can see her front ankles are too straight. I'll get good photos tomorrow. I hope I do this photo thing right!! Thanks so much, Ann. 
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| Member: Dres |
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 29, 2006 - 12:59 am: Really hard to get a clear idea of the angles when his hoofs are buried in the hay.. * lucky colt * nice blood bay ... Try to get him on level clean / mats front/ side / back & if you can get level with his hoofs... I am no expert, I am sure Dr. O will have some comments to make then..On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 29, 2006 - 7:07 am: Welcome jd1947,I am always in a bit of quandary when folks say they have read all the articles on a subject yet don't post in the correct topic and then ask questions that are already answered in the article. It makes me think they missed the correct article. So at the risk of being presumptive, let me first direct you to the correct article(s). We have an article on club feet at, Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Club Foot. But let me save you a step that article will explain to you that with your set of symptoms the foal's club feet are due to flexural deformities and give you a link to the article, Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Muscle & Tendon Diseases » Tendon Laxity and Contracture. There you will find conservative and surgical treatments for your foal that you have not instituted yet. Your foal as a good chance at normal conformation but you must start proper treatment soon to avoid surgery. DrO |
| New Member: Jd1947 |
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 29, 2006 - 12:49 pm: Hello Ann & Dr. O,First, I must apologize for missing the articles you pointed out, Dr. O...I have now read them and also printed out the following for my vet to read (he'll be here this afternoon): Physitis, Epiphysitis & Physeal Dysplasia in Horses, Flexural Limb Deformities & Contracted tendons in Foals & Horses, Club Foot in Horses. I have attached some photos of the filly's feet for you to see. I hope they are good enough. As I mentioned in my first post, she has not had any swelling or heat. When this first happened, and it came on pretty darn fast, she did walk very 'ouchie'...short steps just like a horse with tender feet would do, but that only lasted a few days. She acts just like a foal with normal feet, ankles. She was foaled April 21. She is not fat, but my foals do grow quite fast. I have been feeding Nutrena Safe Choice, but yesterday I got some Nutrena Life Design Youth. I'd like to add the Nutra Flax as a supplement, but don't need to if you advise against it. If you need more photos, I can attach them, but didn't want to slow down the page load time too much. As a side note, I do think she has shown a little improovement since all this started, her ankles have come down somewhat, and it's that club foot look that really has me worried. Thank you Dr.O and also Ann. I appreciate anything you can tell me to help me and my vet get Eowyn back on track |
| New Member: Jd1947 |
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 29, 2006 - 1:09 pm: I seem to have done something wrong...so I am attaching the photos in this post...sorry about that.Thanks again.    
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| Member: Dres |
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 29, 2006 - 1:44 pm: Like I said I am no expert, but she appears to have long pasturns with no angle at all!.. she also has very long heels.. I find it hard to understand that this just came on with out swelling or heat.. I have seen many a foal born this way and have seen many become the high / low hoof from pasture grazing and lack of farrier care.. I too will be interested in what Dr. O says..I commend you for addressing this right away.. On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
| Member: Image |
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 29, 2006 - 3:37 pm: Our QH filly was 3 months old when she did the same thing only just in the front. One hoof was more upright than the other. The vet and our farrier were right there with us all the way with treatments and special trims. When she was 6 months old under the advice of our vet, we made an appointment to have a bi-lateral check ligament desmotomy done. She was in Gainesville for 3 days total and they called for us to bring her home as she was doing very well. They showed me how to wrap her legs and we hand-walked every day for 6 weeks. The farrier came out every week for the first month to make sure her hooves stayed at the proper angles while she healed. She did great! She is now 6 years old, totally sound and you have to really know what you are looking at to tell that she ever had any problem at all. (she only has a hairline scar on the outside of each leg, just below the knee area) We agreed and had the surgery done at such a young age because we were told the younger they are, the better the outcome.I just thought I would share our story because for us, the only answer that remained was surgery...but we don't regret it at all when we watch her run freely across the fields...something she didn't/couldn't do from the onset of the problem till she was healed and medically released. Take care! Wishing all the best for you and your filly! Charlayne |
| Member: Jd1947 |
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 29, 2006 - 4:24 pm: Hi Ann & Charlayne,Thanks for your replies. Ann, she does have a pasturn longer than you'd like, but being half Thoroughbred, you got to deal with that sometimes. I was hoping the Sire, a Doc Quixote QH would help, but not so. Ann, as for her heels, my farrier filed them down as much as he could, any more and she'd been hurting...actually, he's going out of town for 2 weeks, and good farriers around here are very hard to find (I'm in Northern WY) so I plan on filing them down a bit every few days myself. Also, Ann, if you look close you can see she does have a bit of an angle to her fetlocks...maybe the photos are deceiving, as she really does have some angle, she's not totally straight, although she was until the past several days. She runs and bucks and kicks at the other foals when they are playing...you'd never know from a distance she has anything wrong. Charlayne (pretty name)...in my years raising babies, I had just one other foal that developed contracted tendons, but she was a week old and a few doses of tetracycline did the trick...she grew up perfectly sound. But Eowyn did develope this really fast...right after I switched my alfalfa hay for grass hay, which I found out, is loaded with phosphorus. When it first came on, she was hurting for about 4 days...my vet gave her IV tetracycline (although we realized she was beyond the age it would do much good, but worth giving it to her anyway)an antibiotic, in case it was a viral thing, and banamine. But since that first week, she isn't looking like she hurts at all. He drew blood and it showed an elevated phosphorus level (I beleive he said the ratio was 1:1) and everything else looked fine in her blood. I have been feeding Nutrena Safe Choice to both mares & foals. The only supps I added were Nutra Flax (just rice bran with nothing else in it) and Super Muscle (not to build muscle, but for the Omega's 3 & 6). Nothing else added to that sup) I have now switched to Nutrena Life Design Youth, no added anything...just the feed and alfalfa hay to get her calcium up to help that cal/phos ratio. She creep feeds with my oldest foal. I give them each 1/2 lb of the Life Design Youth, twice a day. Mares & foals have free acess to pasture 24/7. My vet was just here...to address your disbelief about heat & swelling...believe me, I know heat & swelling when I see (feel) it...she had no signs of either and her flexion tests were excellent. Anyway, my vet took another blood draw and will call me later today with the results. I can only assume, once her phos levels get straight and she's weaned and I am careful of her diet, she'll come out of this. She isn't getting too much to eat...you can see a hint of ribs, she's just big!! I hope it doesn't get to the point of having surgery...I'm glad to hear your mare came thru her surgery so well, because I have a mare that had that done on one leg as a baby, and now she has arthritus in that knee. Gainsville...I used to live and work on a TB farm in Ocala, and would drive up to Gainsville quite often. I loved Ocala. Thanks again to you both, and I look foward to hearing from other members and Dr. O. |
| Member: Kstud |
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 29, 2006 - 6:30 pm: Hi JD1947, What is the rational for tetracycline with contacted tendons as it is an antibiotic?Catherine |
| Member: Jd1947 |
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 29, 2006 - 7:28 pm: Hi Catherine,I don't know!! I read thru the articles again to find tetracycline treatment, but it doesn't give the reason it's effective (on new borns with problems), so I can't answer that question. Maybe Dr.O will pick up the ball and explain why vets use it for contracted tendons. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006 - 7:29 am: Tetracycline is believed to work by binding calcium and thereby causing a temporary relaxation of the muscles.There is the appearance that both DDF and SDF are mildly contracted but that should be confirmed by the exam which test the relative tension of each while standing. I agree the first step is to wean but I don't think continuing feeding as you have been is likely to fix the problem even with changes in mineral balance. As a second step consider with your veterinarian a restricted diet as described in the article on contracture. DrO |
| Member: Jd1947 |
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006 - 12:00 pm: Hello Dr.O,Thank you for your response. Thanks for answering the question about tetracycline... wish it worked on weanlings!! My filly's ankels seem to be getting better...the angle is beginning to become more pronounced. My biggest fear is the feet becoming clubby...and I'll get my farrier back out here and see what he decides to do about possible toe extensions. I am also applying Therma Flex liniment to her legs everyday...can't hurt. Her flexion tests were very good, and the tendons do not 'feel' especially tight. If you see her moving around, and running, you'd never know she has something wrong...no heat, no swelling, no bumps on her ankles. As for her diet, I am having my hay tested again, although I'm pretty sure what the analysis will tell me...high cal, low phos and everything else about where you'd want it... since her first blood draw showed high phos, I am leary about giving her any more grass hay...seems ours is loaded with phosphorus. The blood draw from yesterday shows her phos level is now normal, calcium is a tick high, all other minerals are within safe boundaries. I have cut down hay intake...she has pasture 24/7. I am feeding her 1/2 lb of Nutrena Design Life Youth (in my area, Northern WY) we have little choice of horse feeds...which is crazy since we may have more horses here than people!! She gets that in her creep feeder twice a day. No supplements at all, although all I was giving her was rice bran (Nutra Flax) and Gamma Oryzanol, but cut them out also. I have been weaning her dam off her feed and tomorrow is weaning day. I hope 1/2 lb of the Youth twice a day, small amounts of alfalfa hay, no supplements and weaning does the trick... One question about her feet looking clubby...is there anything you would suggest for me to apply topically to her feet and/or soles to help them deal with all this better, or a hoof supplement to add to her feed...we are in a DrOught here in WY, and have not had a DrOp of rain in months. The only moisture the foals & mares have gotten is when I irrigate their pasture. I also use a bucket to drench the ground around their water trough a couple of times a week. I don't have much confidence in hoof supplements, but if you can suggest a product, that would be good. I so appreciate your advice, and this wonderful web site....and any other comments from you would be most welcome. Thank you |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006 - 6:48 pm: jd1947, certainly the continued feed of concentrates and alfalfa need to stop and you may find if the pastures are good, that even 24/7 pasture does not cut nutrition enough. Please review the article on contracture I reference above again as your last post implies you may have missed some key principles on nutrition adjustment. Concerning the hoof treatments review Care for Horses » Hoof Care » Care of the Hoof: an Overview.DrO |
| Member: Jd1947 |
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006 - 7:50 pm: Thank you.I have printed out the articles on nutrition and the one on Club Feet. I'll go over all this with my vet and farrier and also an equine nutritionalist that I know who has been doing this for over 20 years. Once again, thank you and I'm sure all this will help. I intend top pursue all this information and use it. |
| Member: Jd1947 |
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006 - 8:23 pm: Please excuse me for appearing stupid, but I have another question...I looked at all the sections and couldn't find anything (hope I didn't miss it).Can DR.O or someone please explain to me what Hyperphosphatemia is? I know it has to do with phosphorus/calcium and the kidney. It was suggested to me that I have this filly's kidneys checked? What are the symptoms of this...can it have something to do with her problem... THANK YOU!! |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 6:54 am: The important article is the one on contracted tendons jd, that is why the feet are becoming clubbed. You did not mention that one in your list so I thought I would bring it up again.Hyperphosphatemia is not a disease but a word that means the phosphorous in the serum is higher than normal. Phosphorous normals from the lab may make it appear as if the levels in a foal's blood are a little high as it tends to run a little higher than adults. What are your lab's normals and what was the level of your foal? Be sure to include the units. For more on Ca / Phos see, Care for Horses » Nutrition » Calcium, Phosphorus in the Diet. DrO |
| Member: Jd1947 |
Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 11:06 am: Dr.O,Thanks again. I also printed out the article on Cal/Phos and feeding the Growing Foal. I've been raising foals for about 9 years, and have not had a problem like this with any of the babies...and worked with an equine nutritionalist when I changed my feeding program a few years ago...Eowyn is the first to have problems. Thanks for the explanation of Hyperphosphatemia... I'm having to go to town today, so I'll stop by my vet and get the complete blood work up and post you the results. Today is weaning day for Eowyn...and I do have a bit of a silly question about her Dam...she's a hard keeper, and I have her down to a little less than a 1/2 lb of the Nutrena Safe Choice feed...2x a day...can I keep her on this during weaning...I have always taken all grain (pellets) from the mares at weaning, but she is pregnant and would like for her to have some grain if possible. Also, I do believe I am seeing an improovement in Eowyn's ankles...they are not so straight, so maybe she's on the road to recovery. I'll get the blood work results back to you ASAP. Thanks again. |
| Member: Jd1947 |
Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 7:14 pm: Dr.O,My vet was out on calls and had my file in his truck....I'll be getting those blood work results for you tomorrow. Thanks...oh, the filly is weaned today!! |
| Member: Jd1947 |
Posted on Friday, Sep 8, 2006 - 10:55 am: Posted on Thursday, Sep 7, 2006 - 3:53 pm:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi everyone and Dr.O, Dr.O, I said i'd post the most recent blood test results for this filly. Sorry, I got especially busy, but I am posting them now for you. I have to type everything in because my computer scanner seems to have died!! In order off the vet's print out: ALB 5.3* 2.2-4.4 G/DL ALP 566* 10-90 U/L ALT 27 20-100 U/L AMY 12* 300-1100 U/L TBIL 1.4* 0.1-0.6 MG/DL BUN 14 10-30 MG/DL CA++ 14.3* 8.0-11.8 MG/DL PHOS 6.4 3.4-8.5 MG/DL CRE 1.1 0.3-2.1 MG/DL GLU 108 70-150 MG/DL NA+ 132* 142-164 MMO/L K+ 4.8 3.7-5.8 MMO/L TP 6.5 5.4-8.2 G/DL GLOB 1.2* 1.5-5.7 G/DL QC OK HEM 1+, LIP 0, ICT 0 I look foward to what you have to say about her blood work above, Dr.O. I have her on a 'diet' and have weaned her. She gets about 1/2lb of Nutrena Life Design Youth with some Nutra Flax (has nothing else but flax as ingredients) twice a day and pasture and alfalfa hay -- it has some grass in it. She has never been over weight at all and is extremely fit. She did have a growth spurt when all this first showed up. I also have had my farrier here to keep her heels trimmed down and he also did some equine massage last week and will come again to do that...while he was working on her all her flexions were fine... the tendons felt tight when he started working her, but after he was done, we could feel a big difference. I have been massaging her legs and tendons and rubbing in Therma-Flex liniment. She seems to be slowly improoveing and still shows no signs of hurting, swelling or heat. Also, her feet have not gotten any worse as far as looking clubby, and my farrier said as they grow they should grow out a good toe. Thanks, Dr. O and members...I look foward to a reply. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Sep 11, 2006 - 9:00 am: Though you have some abnormalities there is nothing of significance here with respect to your problems with flexor contracture. The hypercalcemia is most likely incidental and normal for this foal though I would double check that you are not feeding excessive vitamin D to the horse.In some cases the abnormalities seem worse as they stem from normals that are abnormal. For instance the normals for tbil (total bilirubin) are so far off that this has to be a reporting error and not just lab variation. Careful analysis of your diet and making adjustments as outlined in our article on this problem should be your first move. DrO |
| Member: Jd1947 |
Posted on Monday, Sep 11, 2006 - 12:53 pm: Dr.O,Thanks so very much for all your help & advice. I will bring to my vet's attention that result for the tbil. I am certain she isn't getting too much vitamin D. I have her weaned and have corrected her diet. I can only assume that the high phosphorus we found on her first blood draw was the reason for her to contract... she is very much improoved and looks like she will pull out of this with normal ankles & feet...thank goodness!! Again, I appreciate your help, time and this web site and it's members. Joanie |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 12, 2006 - 6:25 am: Perhaps,I think just as likely is the foal was getting too many nutrients of all types resulting in a spurt of bone growth that the muscoskeletal system could not keep up with. Though high dietary phosphorous may cause weak bones I have not seen cases of rapid long bone growth resulting in contracture. Something also to consider is that foals often run a higher phosphorous level in the blood than adults so if the results are not age adjusted it may exaggerate the increase. What was the level? DrO |
| Member: Jd1947 |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 12, 2006 - 11:10 am: Dr.O,I think you are correct in your assumption...I'd have to ask my vet the exact level of phos she had in that latest blood draw...I see the results chart I posted has several numbers for the phos level...but he did say that the phos level was down to just below abnormal levels. As I mentioned before, since my foals are half Thoroughbred, I know they grow & mature faster than most, so I have always been careful about my feeding program...I guess maybe this filly was especially sensitive to the minerals in her diet, or as you said, she took a growth spurt a bit out of the ordinary... at any rate, she is doing very well now...her ankles are absolutley normal and everything seems fine. I would like you to explain a little more about the phosphorus concerning contracted tendons... you seem to be saying it doesn't have an effect on it...can you explain, other than an natural growth spurt, what does cause the contracted tendons coming on in a foal that's 3 - 4 months old? Thanks so much. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Sep 15, 2006 - 12:22 pm: jd I have greatly edited the article on Flexural Deformity that I reference above to better explain the causes and treatment of acquired deformity. Check it out and if you still have questions let me know.DrO |
| Member: Jd1947 |
Posted on Friday, Sep 15, 2006 - 2:39 pm: Thank you, Dr.OI read it thru again and I can't think of any more questions. I do believe I have it under control now, with weaning her, changing her feeding program, having my farrier corrective trim, and he also gives her massage therapy on her entire front end, right down to her tendons. The first time he did that, after he was done, I could feel the difference in her tendons. Anyway, unless she takes a step backwards, she's on the right road. Again, thank you very much. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Sep 15, 2006 - 7:15 pm: Very good jd, keep an eye on it.DrO |
| Member: Jd1947 |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 16, 2006 - 5:15 pm: Oh, I will, Dr.O...I'm with the mares & babies everyday, and their pasture/corral/shed is right next to the house. Thanks again, and you don't need to reply to this....you have more important posts to read & reply to...if she takes a step backwards, I'll let you know. Meantime...consider no news is good news!!! Hope you are having a nice weekend!! |
| Member: Jd1947 |
Posted on Sunday, Oct 1, 2006 - 11:24 am: Hi Dr.O & members,I will be working very long hours the entire month of Oct., so won't be using my computer much, just to check emails when I get home. I thought I'd post a quick update on the filly, Eowyn and her problems with the contracted tendons and getting clubby feet in front. I realize the photo I attached isn't great for seeing her ankles, but if you look close, you can see she is much improoved. About mid Oct. my farrier will possibly put some toe extensions on her front feet, we are discussing this along with my vet...her ankles are much better, but I'm still concerned about her toes. I appreciate all the help I got here and hope to add another post at the end of Oct that her toes are growing too. Thanks to Dr. O and I hope you all have a nice October...  
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