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Discussion on Tying up in 2 yr old
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Posted on Friday, Feb 9, 2001 - 7:39 pm:
Our almost 2 yr old registered paint filly has had three episodes of tying up in the last three months. I'm hoping you can give some suggestions and indications of whether we can ever control this problem.
Background:
The filly will be 2 the end of May. She is a registered breeding stock paint with mostly Quarter Horse breeding, but with Three Bars TB on her mother's side. She's about 14 hands, well-muscled, with excellent confirmation. She is very excitable, although that is improving with more handling. She is fed good quality grass hay and alfalfa based pellets morning and evening, with a scoop of wheat bran in the morning. We had just this week added a scoop of MuscleEase to her bran in the morning. She is turned out daily, except in bad weather, and is in an outside stall with a small run area at night.
The first episode of tying up was about three months ago. My daughter was riding our mare bareback in the turnout, and the filly became very excited and was racing around for probably about 10 minutes when she suddenly started walking backward and "not acting right". We got her up to the barn and gave her banamine, and within about 15 minutes she seemed fine. (After this we stopped feeding her the Equine Jr. she had been getting.)
The second episode occured about 6 weeks ago. We had taken her into the arena to work on lunging her, but she was so hyper that we just turned her loose to let her run. Again, after about 10 minutes, she tied up, this time more severely, to the point where she was reluctant to walk. We again gave her banamine, this time right in the arena, and when she seemed better slowly walked her up to the barn. This episode took probably 45 minutes to resolve so that she seemed completely normal. We called the vet, who saw her the next day but did not seem too concerned and did not do blood work.
My daughter has been out of town, so a friend has been working with the filly to get her easier to handle. She has been lunging her at a walk for about 15 minutes on a pretty regular daily basis for about the last month, weather permitting. Tuesday the filly seemed pretty calm, so after about 10 minutes of lunging at a walk she was asked to trot, probably for 10 minutes or less. She seemed OK, did not break a sweat, but once back in her stall again tied up, but this time rather mildly, soon resolved with Acepromazine.
Our trainer feels there is definitly something wrong with the filly. My daughter will be back in town next week, so we'll consult with the local vet, but do you have any suggestions that we might be able to talk over with him? As I said, we just started her on MuscleEase this week. I don't have the jar here, but as I recall it contains vitamin E, selenium, and sodium bicarbonate, among other things.
I'd hate to think we will never be able to use this filly - my daughter's mare is so wonderful, and at 26 she's obviously too old to have another foal! Any help would be appreciated.
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 10, 2001 - 8:41 am:
Hello Cheryl,
We have an extensive article and a number of posts on this subject go to: Equine Diseases: Lameness: Problems of Muscles, Tendons, Ligaments, and Bones: Tying Up, Rhabdomyolysis, and Shivers (EPSM). It should give you plenty to think about.
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 10, 2001 - 12:03 pm:
Cheryl, I don't want to be an alarmist,but there is a disease called polysaccharide storage myopathy (PSSM)which you may look into. There is a good article in www.thehorse.com. Go to knowledge bank and into the 2000 year publication and then search the name. Good Luck and let me know what's going on with the filly. yourtrue@lcc.net
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 10, 2001 - 3:52 pm:
Thanks for the suggestions, Kaye and Dr. O. I'll do the research and then we'll talk to our vet. The good news is that the filly was lunged last night, same amount and type of exercise as on Tuesday, and did not tie up. Today I was there when she was lunged, she actually got carried away and cantered for several minutes, so she was a little tired when we finished. We watched her carefully for about 15 minutes. She took a few funky steps with her hind legs, and freaked us out, but then seemed just fine. Keep your fingers crossed for us - we have so much invested in this filly emotionally.
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 11, 2001 - 10:36 am:
So there is no confusion with the above posts EPSM and PSSM are synonymous diseases and covered in the above referenced article on The Advisor: Equine Polysaccharide Storag Myopathy (EPSM) Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy (PSSM)
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Member:
Santucci
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 9, 2003 - 6:43 pm:
Hi Dr. O, thought I'd post a follow-up on Sprout's progress. I last posted about her episodes of tying up in October 2001. Since then she has continued to have sporadic problems with tying up, none severe, and no particular reasons we could pinpoint as possible causes. Then about 6 months ago we decided she was still too fat and cut out the pellets she was getting. Guess what, not a single episode of tying up since! I'm thinking that the small amount of grain in the pellets may have caused the tying up if she has EPSM. Or maybe she just out grew it? She's nearly four now. Or maybe it's just one of those mysteries we'll never figure out! Anyway, she's doing fine at last!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2003 - 7:12 am:
It is delightful that things are going great. The history is strongly suggestive of EPSM and I hope this is the last.
This has been a great post Carolyn with much information for those with a young horse tying up.
DrO
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Member:
Santucci
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Posted on Friday, Apr 16, 2004 - 10:15 am:
A diagnosis at last!
It's been a year since I posted about our mare and her tying up problems. She had a few very mild episodes of tying up between March 2003 and January 2004 on a diet of half alfalfa and half grass hay, no pellets. She has been on training board since October because my daughter is overseas, and with more consistent and harder exercise we decided she was getting a little thin and put her back on alfalfa pellets in January. Within three weeks she had another severe episode, (also associated with a temper tantrum when the trainer had to take her in hand after she tried to bolt!)
Much to our relief we have a new vet in town who is very interested in "oddball" conditions. First step was to do basic blood work, then a desamethasone suppression test as he suspected a Cushing's like synDrOme. Results showed no Cushings, but high normal liver enzymes.
Then the vet had the trainer push the mare into a tying up episode (a mild one) while he was there and drew blood again. I didn't see the results but he told the trainer that her CK level (?) was 4,000, where a normal horse would be at 500.
Next the vet contacted Dr. Valberg at the University of Minnesota and arranged for a muscle biopsy. We just got the results this morning:
"Muscle fiber sizes, shapes and distribution were within normal limits apart from some mildly anguloid fibers. No evidence of muscle necrosis or regeneration was present in the sample. Large subsarcolemmal vacuoles were present. The PAS stain for muscle glycogen revealed a moderate number of fibers with PAS positive inclusions typical of polysaccharide storage myopathy. Blood vessels and connective tissue appeared normal.
Comment: Moderate polysaccharide storage myopathy"
The vet feels Sprout should be able to live a normal life with dietary and exercise management.
The recommended feed is grass and alfalfa hay along with ReLeve by Hallway Feeds I will be in touch with them today to find out where to get it.
The vet commented that Sprout is one of only 200 horses to be diagnosed with this condition. Lucky us!
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Member:
Jcsmoon
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Posted on Friday, Apr 16, 2004 - 4:24 pm:
Carolyn- Congrats on finding a cause to your problem... but your vet is a little off track with the number of horses diagnosed with this condition. It is much more prevelant than that. Check out www.ruralheritage.com under vet clinic. You will find a large collection of people there who are working through this condition. I, myself have a mare that was diagnosed several years ago. She is much better now with proper excersice and DIET (key factor), but the first 6 months was rough.
Dr O also has a good collection of threads on this subject aswell as refrences to Dr Valentines, and Dr Valburgs research.
Lucky you, this is a fairly easy disorder for them to live with.
-Emily
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Member:
Santucci
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Posted on Friday, Apr 16, 2004 - 6:11 pm:
Hi, Emily, yes, I was a little puzzled by this myself. This was a comment he made in the e-mail he sent me this morning. I'll have to ask for clarification when I see him.
He seems to fall in the group of vets that see EPSM and PSSM as two different conditions - I know there is some controversy about this. Some feel they are one and the same and others don't. He also told the trainer that "the whole world is going to be interested in this horse." ?????
Anyway, I'm glad to have this confirmed and a management plan spelled out for us.
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Member:
Jcsmoon
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 17, 2004 - 1:30 pm:
It sounds as if this is fairly new to him. The primary thing between EPSM and PSSM is the circles in which each term developed.
Dr Valberg, who has done a lot of research with the genetic links in the QH lines prefers the term PSSM which is kind of a throw back to the TB end of it. On her view, and many others, the TB, QH and Draft lines carry slightly different genetic causes... but the treatment remains the same. She states in her research that the QH PSSM appeared to be an autosomal recessive disorder linking back to 3 prominant foundation stallions of similar linieage.
The other group uesing EPSM gained from observations of draft horses has Dr Valentine. She feels they are the same disease but it just has a tendancy to present symptoms slightly diffrently in diffrent breeds. She focuses her efforts on treatment. That said she has, in personal communications, indicated that she has seen one mule with a PASS stain indication EPSM so that rocks the boat of autosomal recessive inheritance as it is not known to be a doccumented issue in donkeys.
I think there is really less of a controversy as both Dr Valentine and Dr Valberg respect each others work. They just are working at the disease from different perspectives, one from inheritance the other from management.
Dr Valentine has a lot of varriations on the diet availible now and some feed companies are now starting to produce pelleted feeds specifically designed for the diet. Her rural heritage site gives many options.
You know what just occured to me, perhaps Dr Valberg indicated that she personally had run the PASS stains in which 200 had shown positive. This may not take into account those done with Dr Valantine and other labs. Many people opt not to run the biopsy and to go off of symptoms and just switch to the diet therapy.
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Member:
Santucci
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 17, 2004 - 4:19 pm:
Hi, again, Emily, I think you've got it...I just re-read Dr. Valberg's full report and she is the one who stated: "About 200 horses of Quarter Horse and warmblood/draf horse breeding have been identified...." So she's probably referring to tests she has run herself. I'm going to see if she is interested in the mare's pedigree - perhaps that will add something to her research.
The mare is going to her second show tomorrow - placed first in all four classes entered in her first show! She has lots of potential if we can just manage her symptoms.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 18, 2004 - 10:02 am:
HEllo Carolyn,
Thank you so much for your continued update of this great thread. Could I ask a few questions:
1) What is your horses current diet like and the amounts fed?
2) What is the analysis of the Releve feed?
3) How much Releve are they recommending you feed?
DrO
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Member:
Jeans
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 18, 2004 - 12:48 pm:
I just wanted to say, Awesome O, that it's nice to have a place where I can trust that false or unproved information won't be spread unchallenged--your rejection of Cornic's new treatment for tying up (back in November) being one example. Thanks.
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Member:
Santucci
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 18, 2004 - 6:44 pm:
Hi, Dr. O. Glad you are finding this interesting, I hope others do as well. I had not heard of Releve until Dr. Valberg suggested it. The only place in Arizona that carries it is in Phoenix, so it will be a week or so before I can get it. It costs $17 for a 50 lb bag so it's definitely not cheap. The lady at the feed store in Phoenix said that it's being used for a lot of race horses there and many of them are now free of symptoms with no other medication or supplements, so I'm very hopeful.
Sprout gets a tomato can of wheat bran in the morning. Then she is turned out with 4 other mares for breakfast so it's hard to give you amounts. I know that 5 full flakes of alfalfa are put in the turn out, and I'm sure she gets her share. In the evening she gets two large flakes of grass hay. The barn manager doesn't weigh the flakes so I don't know how much to tell you she gets. We had tried adding pellets back in as noted above - stopped quickly when she tied up again!
Dr. Valberg suggests 1-3 pounds of ReLeve for horses in moderate work. Since she's a little thin the barn manager thinks we'll work her up to 5 lbs. and see how she does.
Releve is put out by Hallway Feeds. They have a website, I'm trying to access it to find out the nutrition info but am having trouble. Will try again tomorrow.
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Member:
Santucci
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 18, 2004 - 6:54 pm:
Here's a picture of our little darling "Spook Peppy Bar" better known as Sprout. 
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Apr 19, 2004 - 7:07 am:
Very nice Carolyn and thanks for the kudos Jeani.
DrO
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Member:
Santucci
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Posted on Monday, Apr 19, 2004 - 9:16 pm:
Hi Dr. O. Gosh that picture turned out blurry, I'm new to digital photography and must have done something wrong. I'll have to practice.
The website for ReLeve is www.re-leve.com. Hallway Feeds also has a website, www.hallwayfeeds.com. Here is the info on the product:
RE•LEVE is a fortified concentrate formulated specifically for horses prone to tying-up.Diets composed largely of nonstructural carbohydrates such as cereal grains and molasses can increase the occurrence of tying-up. Therefore,diets formulated with alternative energy sources should be fed to reduce the likelihood of tying-up.Energy in RE•LEVE is provided by a broad spectrum of ingredients,including Equi-Jewel,a high fat stabilized rice bran product.RE•LEVE is fully fortified with all vitamins and minerals necessary for the equine athlete.
There isn't any info on specifically what's in it, maybe that's listed on the bag. The nutritional analysis is listed as 12.5% protein, 12.5% fat, and 40% total cell wall, whatever that means.
This product was developed with input from Dr. Valberg, from what I gather. I'll post again in a month or so and let you know how Sprout is doing.
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Member:
Santucci
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Posted on Monday, Apr 19, 2004 - 9:48 pm:
trying a picture again...
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 20, 2004 - 7:27 am:
Looking at the position of the shadow in the photo above I think the problem is that you are shooting toward the sun. The autoexposure is closing down the shutter making your subject dark. Be sure the sun is at your back when you shoot.
DrO
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Member:
Santucci
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Posted on Friday, Jul 9, 2004 - 3:25 pm:
Well, the Re-Leve didn't turn out to be that much help. In fact, the mare was so hyper on it that she was more difficult to ride than usual, which lead to more "temper tantrums" on her part, which lead to her tying up twice in two days. So we took her off the Re-Leve and I now have 4 bags of the stuff sitting in the feed room. Oh, well, it was worth a try.
Since Re-Leve is mostly rice bran, the trainer thinks that's what made her so hot, as the same thing happened to the trainer's stallion when he was on rice bran. So we're back to just alfalfa and grass hay and keeping our fingers crossed. Maybe as she gets older and mellows out more, the episodes will decrease on their own.
Here's a recent picture - I'm finally getting the hang of the digital camera!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 10, 2004 - 6:39 am:
Nice photo and nice horse. Carolyn did you just add the product to the diet or did you substitute it for parts of the diet. I feel that replacing digestible carbohydrates with fats could be a key to controlling the episodes.
DrO
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Member:
Santucci
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 14, 2004 - 11:28 am:
Hi, Dr. O, we added the Re-Leve to try and put some weight on the mare, the trainer feels she's a little thin. We tried pellets first, she tied up badly after that, so then we went to Re-Leve as it had been highly recommended. Unfortunately she tied up on that too. We had been putting oil on pellets at one point, but she tied up even with that. I know there are powdered fat supplements out there, I wonder if that would be worth a try? We could add that to her bran.
Slightly off topic, the vet thinks we should spay the mare as PSSM is hereditary. The trainer thinks it would be a good idea, as the mare is such a witch when she's in heat. What do you think?
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Member:
Sandbox
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 14, 2004 - 7:16 pm:
I started feeding shredded beet pulp to a very thin TB. If you research this you'll find a very effective way to add calories without the high protein level (pulp only has 6% protein). I've been very impressed at the way this feed is adding weight and filling out his topline. I feed him about 1 pound twice a day - I'm still soaking it (and adding molasses) since he's a rather fussy eater but the other horses in the barn love it plain.
The best part is I only pay $5 for a 40 pound bag. Good luck with Sprout!
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Member:
Santucci
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 15, 2004 - 10:58 am:
Thanks for the suggestion, Sandy, I'll ask the trainer about beet pulp. It's great that it's working so well for your TB.
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Member:
Kel4s
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 15, 2004 - 11:58 am:
Carolyn,
If that is a current picture of your mare, I would say she is a good weight. I wouldn't want to see any more on her. She is a very nice individual. Nice front legs, good back. She looks well muscled.
I would agree with not breeding her. Could you do the less invasive spay where they make a small incision on each side of the flank and just take the ovaries out? My farrier said a client of his had this done to a half mustang filly. The dam was wild caught but very gentle, the foal was viscious. My farrier didn't want to work on her any more because she tried to take a bite out of him. The owners finally had her spayed and she turned into the sweetest animal.
Good luck
Kellie
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 15, 2004 - 12:20 pm:
Hi Carolyn
I used to own a warmblood mare that was a real witch during her heats from the age of 3 onwards. Several years later during a colic surgery, the vets spayed her as upon examination, her ovaries were found to be slightly abnormal and we figured that since she was already open and on the table, we could "kill 2 birds with one stone".
Imagine my surprise about 4 months later when this mare started showing signs of heat again. I had held her ovaries in my hands so I knew they were gone but here she was acting like a cow again. I immediately call the surgical clinic to ask how this could be and was told that up to 30% of spayed mares will continue to go through heat cycles. This mare is 15 years old now and still has totally regular heats with the witchy attitude to match.
I also have a friend who had her mare spayed many years ago at the age of 5 due to the fact that she seemed to be constantly in heat and was very difficult to deal with. Spaying did nothing to change her temperament and when she died at 21 years old, she was as difficult as when she was a youngster.
Just something to consider when evaluating the pros and cons of spaying.
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Member:
Apcohrs
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 15, 2004 - 5:41 pm:
Are you still feeding a small amount of wheat bran??? I thought wheat bran was forbidden for EPSM horses. It's not digestable for humans, but horses digest it very well and it is considered a high-carb feed for them.
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Member:
Presario
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Posted on Friday, Jul 16, 2004 - 11:45 am:
I too think she looks in excellent weight. Have you gone to the Rural Heritage site? Since your girl has been positively identified as having EPSM, she needs to have the fat % of her diet in the 20-25% range. This is pretty much only doable by adding oil. Alfalfa pellets soaked in oil provides a high fat/low carb "grain".
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 17, 2004 - 7:11 am:
Carolyn, the reason your diet change did not help was you did not lessen the intake of carbohydrates, in fact you increased them when you simply added the new dietary component. You have to begin substituting fats for carbs, see the article for a recommedation on that. I need to correct one statement above on the protein levels in beet pulp: they average around 10% not 6%.
DrO
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Member:
Santucci
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 18, 2004 - 3:08 pm:
Hi, everyone, thanks for your comments and suggestions. Yes, Dr. O, I see what you mean, although we were following the recommendations from Dr. Valberg. Sprout just seems to do better on strictly alfalfa/grass hay - she does get a small amount of wheat bran every morning, we are giving her an herbal supplement that is supposed to calm her down when she's in heat, and we need something to mix the supplement with. She's been off the Re-Leve for about 6 weeks and hasn't tied up at all. Even when we were giving her pellets with oil added she tied up, so I guess she's just really sensitive to any carbs. At this point I think we'll just not mess with the success we've had just on hay and see what happens.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jul 19, 2004 - 9:27 am:
Sounds like a great place to start and if your horse begins to loose weight, increase the energy intake by adding vegtable oil to the exisiting bran.
DrO
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Member:
Sandbox
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 21, 2004 - 7:16 pm:
Dr O - I know my memory is starting to fail me so I rechecked my bag of beet pulp and it list beet pulp as "not less than 6% crude protein" and 8% digestible protein. (So I suppose it could have a higher level of protein than 6%.) Other websites give it a range of 7-9% so maybe the variations come in the processing or where it's grown?
Sandy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 22, 2004 - 7:59 pm:
There is something confusing about that tag Sandy: digestible protein should be lower than crude protein (digestible protein + undigestible protein = crude protein) and a 8% digestible protein should be in line with about 10% crude protein.
There is always a lot of confusion over such numbers and one of the most commonly encountered sources of confusion is whether the nutrient content is done on a dry matter or "as is" basis which would include water content and lowers the overall numbers. Because moisture varies it should always be compared on a dry matter basis. I believe the 10% figure (crude protein, dry matter basis) was taken from a text on livestock feeds but when I get back to the office I will double check the numbers.
DrO
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Member:
Qhsue
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 27, 2004 - 9:11 pm:
This has been a very interesting thread. I have a 6 year old mare that is barely trained due to always showing "off" after a bit of training. We went through the traditional lameness exams with no real definate diagnosis.
I finally learned of EPSM/PPSM and my mare's enzymes were indeed very high for a horse not being worked. I added Cocasoya (Uckele) to my mare's diet (1 cup of strategy/oats mix 2X a day plus pasture) and noticed improvement in 4 weeks. This mare always poked in the pasture and now was trotting around! It was great to see. She looked like the kid she really never was.
One thing I have noticed in my mare is that she still shows soreness when she is in heat or just after. This seems rather consistent with Carolyn's findings in her mare. Interesting.
I am just starting to work with her on the ground again and hope to use her for light trail riding. I am also working with her to get her to lift her feet in hopes that she will tolerate farrier care again.
I am so happy that the feed companies are taking note - almost like the people low card craze. ;-)There seems to be much to choose from these days.
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Member:
Santucci
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Posted on Monday, Nov 8, 2004 - 10:01 pm:
Hi, all! Fingers crossed and knock on wood, I'm hoping this will be the last time I ever have to post on this topic. Sprout hasn't tied up since July! The key for her is straight hay (alfalfa/grass) no pellets, grain, etc. Luckily she's an easy keeper. I'm not sure if this would be the answer for other EPSM horses, but it's sure worked for us.
Bragging time! At the final show of the year, Sprout and my daughter brought home two grand championship trophies, one reserve champion trophy, and six blue ribbons! Now this is just a small, local show, all we can afford or have the time for, but after all the trials and tribulations we've had with this mare, we are thrilled!
This is the latest picture of my daughter and her pride and joy.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, Nov 8, 2004 - 11:24 pm:
A lovely sight to behold. Well done Carolyn! 
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 9, 2004 - 10:00 am:
Super Carolyn, that is all just super.
DrO
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Member:
Santucci
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 8, 2006 - 7:04 pm:
I can't believe it's been almost 2 years since I posted about Sprout. In her case, that's a good
thing! She and my daughter did their first cross country course today and did well. They also did
five rounds of stadium jump and did great there too. The photographer (Mom!)got tired and only
took pictures of the 18 inch cross rails in stadium, but they jumped up to 2'6". Here are the
pictures.
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Member:
Santucci
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 8, 2006 - 7:07 pm:
Hummmm.....I can't remember how I resized the photos last time. I'll keep trying and see if I can get it right.
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Member:
Santucci
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 8, 2006 - 7:22 pm:
one more time
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Member:
Santucci
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 8, 2006 - 7:30 pm:
last one!
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Member:
Santucci
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 8, 2006 - 10:36 pm:
OK, I can't resist - here's an even better one...
The mare had never seen this course before and had never jumped an oxer!
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 8, 2006 - 11:26 pm:
Great job! And, great job with the pictures, too! You could get a job as a show photographer if you ever get bored being "just" the horse show mom.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Monday, Oct 9, 2006 - 8:42 am:
Ohhh! You Arizona people make me so envious!
Beautiful horse, and beautiful scenery too!
Good job.
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 10, 2006 - 8:19 pm:
What a pair! What fun, looking at your pictures. Is she as able and willing as she looks?
Thanks for sharing! It's so neat to see a story come full circle!
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Member:
Santucci
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 10, 2006 - 9:49 pm:
Lee, she loves jumping. She and my daughter have been out of sync for several months now....my daughter has to travel from time to time for her job, and it takes them a while to get back together. And, for better or worse, they have very similar attitudes - hardheaded! But they seem to be clicking again so we'll hope it continues.
Our trainer also owns Sprout's sire, and says that Sprout is the most athletic "baby" she's bred from him. The trainer also says she thinks Sprout was born to event, as she isn't afraid of anything (that can be bad or good, depending on the situation!)
I was amazed by how well she jumped Sunday. They've only been jumping 2'6" for a couple of weeks, and she'd never seen fences like this, or oxers. Didn't refuse at any of them, although she did hit a couple of rails. The other six riders/horses from our barn did well also, so it was a great day!
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