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Discussion on Can anyone identify these?
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 2, 2006 - 5:40 pm:
Hi, I found these on my mare today, they appear to be bites, right on her nose. There are 3 marks tho so I suppose it wouldn't be a snake? Anyone familiar with bites? She don't seem real uncomfortable. I don't think they are rub marks from anything. Ideas anyone?
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 3, 2006 - 12:56 am:
Is she out grazing? Any ticks in your area?
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 3, 2006 - 7:51 am:
Yes Lee she is out 24/7 I noticed them after they came in from a new pasture, I just started letting them graze on. They resemble puncture wounds or some kind of bite. There is barbed wire on a small stretch of this pasture, but my husband said they are too close for that. They are too big for tick bites I think.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 3, 2006 - 7:55 am:
Dr.O. the thing I worry about is a rabid animal, tho the chances are small. She was not vaccinated for it this year yet. She was in April of 05' I was going to start vaccinating them for rabies in Nov. as to keep her shots seperate, due to reactions, vet approved. What do you think?
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 3, 2006 - 8:10 am:
Diane . . . it doesn't look like an animal bite . . . if it were from a rabid animal, I'm sure you would see some bottom teeth marks.
Do they seem to itch or ooze? Are they sore to the touch? How long has she had them? If there are no symptoms, I'd wait a few days and see what develops. Hopefully, they'll just resolve themselves. If some of the other horses end up with similar marks, I'm sure you'll find the culprit.
They look like bug bites or pricker marks . . .
Could there be any old barbed-wire growing on your property (as often does on old farm)? If the wire was bunched up, it could make these marks.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 3, 2006 - 8:33 am:
Thanks HW There is no barb wire on the ground, I hate barbed wire around horses and even that small stretch of it makes me nervous. My horses respect fence as most of it is very hot wire. This mare however feels the need to reach under the very bottom, for the "greener" grass on the other side. She got them yesterday, while turned out, that pasture has very tall grass, where anything could "hide". These (bites) don't seem to bother her and are just slightly swollen, this morning they were starting to crust over a little. She is utd on tetnus shot. Hopefully I am worrying for nothing.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 3, 2006 - 9:02 am:
Though suspicious for a snake do to the location and appearance, the lack of remarkable swelling and the distance between the marks argues against it. Some of our pit vipers are known for being able to control the amount of venom released. Copperheads for instance minimize envenomation in defense if they don't feel too threatened. Maybe this represents a large copperhead that bit without releasing venom, but more likely some other kind of injury.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 3, 2006 - 10:17 am:
Thanks Dr.O. They really do look like a snake bite, but with 3 marks I didn't know. We Thankfully don't have copperheads here. The only venomous snake we have is rattlers. I have seen more snakes lately and so have other people, I think they get a little nuts this time of year here. Can snakes other than pit vipers leave fang marks? I know we have big bull snakes here, but I don't know if they have fangs? I tried looking it up on the internet and didn't find an ans. Anyone know?
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 3, 2006 - 10:58 am:
Dr.O. after more research, I have found that bull snakes will bite and leave marks. Perhaps this mare has a bite and a half? thus 3 marks. The articles I read were for humans and said tho not poisonous they should go on antibiotics. If this is a bullsnake bite should she start antibiotics? This being a holiday weekend (when all things happen to horses)I don't want to contact my vet unless I have to. I have been putting swat on it as the flies are all over the wounds. She seems normal in all aspects otherwise.
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Member:
Zarr
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 3, 2006 - 6:00 pm:
Diane, try mixing Bag Balm in swat works wonders on small wounds also Novalsan cream works on all kinds of lacerations and punctures.If you have rattlesnakes you need to keep any bull snakes you have as they eat rattlers! and if it was a rapid repeat strike one could overlay the other!Don't you just love the puzzles of life that our horses present us!!?? Good Luck Cindy
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Member:
Sureed
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 3, 2006 - 10:25 pm:
We had a rattlesnake bite a yearling in the mouth on our farm and it swelled up in a hurry. Cindy is right on, if you have Bull Snakes or King
Snakes on your property, you don't want to get rid of them. They both will go after rattlers. You want them around for sure.
Suzanne
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Monday, Sep 4, 2006 - 8:53 am:
Hi, we don't get rid of any snakes on our property, altho I prefer not to see them! Our farm is surrounded by new construction and the wildlife keep moving this way. The coyotes are terrible, we had one eat a calf as it was being born last year. We are weaning our calves right now and one of the suburbanites called the sheriff cuz' "dogs were barking" it was our calves bawling!! The deer population on our property has tripled because of all the new construction. Somehow we are going to have to live with this, but all the "new" wildlife does pose a threat to my horses health in a way. Thanks for all the suggestions!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Sep 4, 2006 - 9:09 am:
Diane,
I could make the same kind of comments that I did about a snake bite, but none of this really answers whether this was a rabid animal or not.
In my opinion you should go ahead and have your horse immediately vaccinated for rabies and then remember for the next 6 months if the horse develops illness associated with neurological changes this event.
DrO
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Member:
Zarr
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Posted on Monday, Sep 4, 2006 - 10:06 am:
Diane, don't you just love how non-critter people respond to "country stuff" !! When we built we were WAY out there,then our corner was discovered and puff 15 homes have gone in around us in 2 years!Showed my husband pics and he thought it was a dry bite. Good luck and plant TALL trees. Cindy
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Monday, Sep 4, 2006 - 10:15 am:
Dr.O I will contact my vet soon as he is back in the office. This is my old mare "Flash" who is stiff behind, she couldn't walk hardly, and seemed in alot of pain this spring following her ewt-wnv vacs. I honestly thought about putting her down. I pre-buted etc. but it didn't seem to help. After about a week she snapped out of it slowly. I know from prior exp. the rabies vac. stiffens her up like a board and she lays around in agony for a week or better. The thought of a rabies shot for her does not thrill me, yet a case of rabies don't either. Every year her reaction has gotten worse.
This county has not had a case of rabies in years and is not endemic for it. The vet and I thought that her reaction is so crippling, that splitting the vacs. may help, but we don't think it will really. Weighing the risk factor to her reaction we decided to wait. 3 grams of bute didn't touch her pain. and she is a pony.
Question is if I ran titres would that let me know her status as far as rabies immunity, my vet thinks so, but reading your article I am not sure. Would this be a good idea in her case?
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Sep 4, 2006 - 12:24 pm:
Diane -- about a year ago one of mine had his rear legs blow up hugely after rabies plus 4-way shot + West Nile. This year I split my shots 2 weeks apart and he was okay. Your horse's reaction sounds more severe, however. Hosing my boy's legs didn't help a bit (they felt hot to the touch too) but giving BUTE for a couple of days did. I had a cowboy tell me that when a horse has reactions to shots (I had a mare that would get laminitis -- 3 times from 3 different types of shots), give it in the rear area, deep muscle, instead of the neck. He turned that mare into a roping horse and she is still alive and well 13 years later. While I still had the mare, the Vet. would have me give her a Banamine shot about an hour prior to receiving vaccinations plus Tri-hist for a couple of weeks prior and after the shot. Whether or not that really works, she didn't have a further reaction for me on that program.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Monday, Sep 4, 2006 - 2:30 pm:
Thanks Cindy, the trees have been planted! and the hot wire is extra hot, it usually only takes one zap for them to get the message . Vicki the strange thing about the rabie shot is I think it is the fort dodge one that does it. One year, a different vet I use to use had run out of the F.D. vac. and he used intervet I think, and no reactions. I have talked to my new vet about this and maybe he can get the intervet kind for my horses. I can't order it in this state. Thanks for reminding me of that in a round about way. I also use intervet for my ewt, but the wnv is F.D. and I believe the one my mare reacted to this spring.
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Sep 4, 2006 - 4:01 pm:
Thank you Diane -- that is very interesting and useful information. I will discuss this with my Vet. before semi-annual shots are due. I believe they may have changed the brand of W.N. vaccine from what they had first used, which didn't cause a problem for my horses.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Sep 4, 2006 - 5:06 pm:
Then you must weigh the pros and cons. If the risk of exposure is real, waiting for a titer strikes me as risky and I am uncertain of the significance of the results, as titers don't always correlate with protection and I don't see where this question has been studied in horses. As a human who has been vaccinated for rabies, if I am exposed they recommend boostering.
Personally I have never seen a horse that lays around in agony for days from a vaccine and have not found a stiffness that didn't respond remarkably to adequate dosages and timing of bute. If I did I would consider using flunixin instead. But we don't use it just as a pre-treatment with known reactors, see the article Care for Horses » Vaccines & Coggin's Test » Vaccines and Adverse Reactions for more on this.
DrO
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