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Discussion on Seizures and hormones
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 18, 2001 - 8:55 am:
Hi again Dr O,
I had a flash of inspiration a couple of nights ago - doesn't happen all that often  . I was thinking about Cara's seizures because she has recently issued a few "early warning" signs and so I make sure I am aware of the 10 day cycle of them when they get going so that I can try to guard against them. I've always said I couldn't see any link between them and her seasons but I suddenly realised there IS a pattern and I just didn't look on a long enough timescale. To cut a long story short, as I said before Cara has seizures on a 10 day cycle and her seasons run to exactly 20 days. She is trained to pee in a bucket and I'd always noticed that at around day 12 (counting the first day she is in season as day 1) her urine changes to what you would expect her to produce when she is in season, thick and cloudy and greener than her usual tea-like output. I've realised now that she always has a seizure 8 days before her season starts (day 12) - I checked my records and this holds true even back in 1998, continued in 2000 and her recent "false alarm" was yes, bang on that interval too. Now I really don't think this is a coincidence do you??? It would also explain why her seizures have always returned the spring months as her body gears up for the breeding season (although she cycles all year around without a break). What it doesn't account for is the following seizures a further 10 days later which would put her at day 3 or so, within her period of oestrus but maybe her hormones are spiking or something there too - she usually takes a day or two to be completely receptive.
What do you think then, could we have cracked it? I'm not sure where we would go from here though. Incidentally a little pony I know who also has seizures, but really terrible ones like dogs or people get wasn't responding terribly well to phenobarbitone. Her owners realised that she only ever had seizures in the spring and early summer and she was being weaned off her drugs through the winter with complete success - the vet said that must be hormonal too. The dratted things have alot to answer for don't they??
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Posted on Friday, Apr 13, 2001 - 10:13 am:
Though it is possible that the seizures may have some relation with estrus the biggest problem I see with your reasoning above is the way you determine estrus. I am not aware of any work that says the nature of the urine changes in appearance during estrus nor is it something I have observed. The pattern of how the mare urinates may change but for most mares this only ocurs with a stallion around.
Don't I remember you having some trouble controlling the seizures this past winter when the mare should have been anestral?
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 17, 2001 - 7:44 am:
Oh gosh Dr O, you should see the stuff change, there is no mistaking it. Normally it looks like tea or beer, but when those hormones get busy its like something you've put your paintbrushes in to clean them, really thick, cloudy and greenish yellow. It is very heavy with sediment - if you leave it to settle the liquid on top looks like normal urine. It smells stronger too.
I guess alot comes back to what was discussed on another forum - knowing your own horse . The week before she is due to come into oestrus she gets very sensitive through her back and I have to remember to avoid sitting trot and do any cantering in forward seat. The day before the official start of season she gets very quiet and depressed, hanging her head alot and generally looking sad. She appreciates sympathy and spends her time gazing at the gelding a couple of stables away. By the next day she is more interested in other horses than her food (particularly other mares!!) and starts the usual squatting and squirting routine. She is noticeably uncomfortable throughout and appears colicky but without the sweating. This lasts about 5 days plus one further day when she encourages her would-be suitors and then chases them off and then its all quiet and business as usual. The entire cycle is 20 days.
Unfortunately she doesn't stop cycling in the winter months, possibly because with other owners being around earlier than me, the stable lights are on from mid-afternoon to mid-evening. I've never observed any other odd things, such as growing a winter coat at the wrong time or anything like that, that faulty hormones might account for. I didn't take much notice of her seasons at first as she lived out all summer but when she was stabled in the winter and had one I was convinced she had colic and called the vet (duhhh!)
Yes, we did have a problem controlling the last lot of seizures but they were in the late spring (first week of May)and into the summer. It has been very noticeable how they always reappear at this sort of time. The earliest I have recorded is January 9th. The year before that it was mid-February. I expect you understand now why I'm extra-twitchy about her at the moment! I always swore I'd never have a mare - should have listened to myself a bit more obviously (LOL)
Helen
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 18, 2001 - 6:46 am:
Hello Helen,
If you think there is a relation you can try putting your mare on Regumate (see Reproduction: Medications) for the summer and if that fixes the problem you might consider having the ovaries removed. This can be done as a standing operation.
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, May 2, 2001 - 3:14 am:
Hi Helen, DrO pointed me in the direction of your emails due to some problems I am having with my mare which I felt might be related to her hormones ( I have to say my problems seem trivial compared to yours ). Anyway I decided to search the internet for anything to do with seizures and hormones/Estrus and found a number of articles claiming that Estrus provokes epileptic seizures in female dogs due to raised levels of Estrogen ( and sometimes testosterone ). I also found a document claiming that estrogen increases epileptic activity in women while progesterone decreases it.
Just thought this might be of interest to you !!
Good luck with your mare
Emma
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Posted on Wednesday, May 2, 2001 - 9:05 am:
Hi Emma,
I haven't trawled the Web lately so you are probably much more up to date than I am - thanks for informing me.
Yes, my horse's problem is rather serious but in many ways I think I'm more fortunate than you because at least I have some treatment options available. Yours is the narcolepsy sufferer, is that right?
I know of two other mares who have epileptic seizures and the vet is sure they under hormonal control. Don't we girls suffer with the dratted things??
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 20, 2002 - 3:12 am:
Hi Helen
I was just wondering if you put your mare on regumate last summer and wheither it had any affect on her seizures ??
I'm due to put my mare on it next month to see what affect it has on her "narcoleptic episodes" as she has been fine all winter but has recently come back into season and has once again lost her sparkle and is starting to doze when saddled.
I'd love to hear your latest thoughts on the those dratted things and wheither you are still persuing this line of thought with Cara !!
Thanks
Emma
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 21, 2002 - 8:24 am:
Hi Emma,
Nice to hear you had a "normal" winter. To answer your question, no I didn't put Cara onto Regumate for one reason really - I'm told that when you withdraw it they have a really powerful season and I was terrified I'd get a super-charged seizure to go with it and they are quite bad enough at the best of times thankyou!!
However I am strongly considering trying her on a herbal product called Oestress which amongs other things contains Agnes Castex Vitus (chaste berry) which is supposed to balance hormones out, male and female. Right now she is having seasons despite all her drugs (her hormones must be so powerful)so at least I know when her at-risk days are. She had a seizure in November, a high risk month normally anyway, aggrevated by several nights of fireworks just a few hundred yards away - they terrify her, but has settled again since thank goodness.
I heard from another person here in the UK who's mare has both narcolepsy and seizures - while whe was pregnant she was completely fine, and they were just waiting to see if weaning the foal would cause any problems. I must check back with her.
One more bit of advice - if you do go down the Regumate path, ask your vet to supply you with the one they use for pigs. Apparently its identical and costs a fraction of the horse product. Anything that has equine in front of its name seems to carry a massive surcharge doesn't it?
Good luck
Helen (and Cara)
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Posted on Friday, Mar 22, 2002 - 3:37 am:
Thanks for the update and the advice Helen.
I was just wondering if you know or could find out how the UK mare with Narcolepsy and seizures is during anestrus, I'd be very interested to know if her narcolepsy also disappears during this period.
I tried Natural Animal Feeds "Oestress" last summer .. is this the one you are thinking of using ?? My mare was alot less irritable and her "episodes" were milder but it is hard to know wheither this was down to Oestress or just because !!!
Good luck with it if you use it.
Emma
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 9, 2002 - 8:50 am:
Hi Emma,
Sorry for the delay. I've just heard that the mare is doing fine still, no problems at all and the foal was weaned towards the end of last year. In answer to your other question, yes Oestress, made by NAF is the product I was thinking of. There would be no harm really in you trying it. Let me know how you go on
Helen & Cara
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 10, 2002 - 6:42 am:
Hi Helen
Thanks for finding that out for me, it is much appreciated. I am due to start my mare on regumate next week - will give you an update in a few weeks and let you know how we are getting on.
Keep your fingers ( and toes ) crossed for me !!!
Emma
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 11, 2002 - 8:36 am:
Consider everything crossed Emma
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 4, 2002 - 9:06 am:
Hi DrO
Just wanted to give you a quick update. The good news is that the regumate seems to have worked !!! My mare hasn't "dozed" for a couple of weeks now and her eyes have lost that horrible dull/cloudy look and are once again "winter" bright. I can't believe it - she seems almost back to her cheeky and bold normal self !!
I am prepared for the fact that the "Sleeping" may return and am still in wait and see mode but I am just sssssooooooo happy that I finally have something concrete to go on !!
Thanks for your help and advice
Emma
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 11, 2002 - 8:17 am:
Hi Emma,
This is really good news, I'm so pleased for you (and seriously jealous too) Keep us posted onhow you two go on through the summer.
Helen
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 19, 2002 - 4:15 am:
Hi DrO & Helen
Unfortunately my mare has started to "sleep" mildly once again and her eyes are beginning to dull. I still believe that the regumate helped and I am pushing my vet to do a scan of her ovaries.
DrO although my mare seemed better on the regumate it was in the following weeks when she came off it that I noticed a vast improvement to the extent that I felt she was better - have you any thoughts on this ??
Helen - thanks for your support .. it's nice to know that someone out there is rooting for us !!
Emma
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 19, 2002 - 6:33 am:
Hello Emma,
Keep a daily diary or calender noting treatments, dosages, and behavior. Try and keep the subjective evaluations to a minimum (perhaps a overall grade where 1 = definately normal, 2 = maybe normal, 3 = definately abnormal) but take careful note of objective findings. Patterns develop that may have significance particularly with repeated testing. I think the one time events above could very likely be natural variation of the disease and treatment results coincidence but only with repeated testing will we know.
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 19, 2002 - 8:28 am:
Hi DrO - thanks for the swift response.
I have been keeping a daily diary since this all started in the summer of 2000 in the hope of finding a pattern !!!
But natural variations of what disease ?? Ain't that the million dollar question :-) (sorry feeling a bit down and fustrated with the whole thing today)
The regumate gave me such hope as besides not sleeping her eyes became clear and bright which has never happened in the summer before ... I wish I could describe the whole dull eye thing better as it is a valuable indicator to me of "sleep" returning after the winter and disappearing in the Autumn.
I will get her scanned and try some more regumate and wait and watch and wait and watch and wait and watch .. I'm expert at waiting and watching at this stage :-)
Then and only then will I give up on this hormone theory ( and my last bit of hope of ever getting to the bottom of this fustrating seasonal "whatever it is" )
Emma
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 19, 2002 - 8:43 am:
Cheer up Emma, it took me 4 years to make the connection between Cara's seizures and her seasons. Dr O is right, a diary of events is essential.
Have another trial with the regumate and see if it replicates what you saw before. Maybe her hormones settled down after the first dose but have gradually gone haywire again as her body makes the same "mistake" again.
ps (whispers so that Dr O doesn't hear - don't forget the Oestress if you want to try something longer term)
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 20, 2002 - 3:03 am:
Hi Helen
Another day and a brighter outlook !!
That was exactly my thoughts on the hormones .. that the regumate settled them for a while and then they got disrupted again .. or that her cycle has been out and it regulated it again. A huge part of me (that always lives in hope) was praying that this may be indicative of an ovarian tumor or cyst or anything definite that I could attempt to treat !!
( whispers - in regard to the Oestress I tried that last summer and it didn't stop her sleeping, she was however alot better than the previous summer .. wheither this was down to the Oestress or just simply because, I have no idea. Have you tried this on Cara yet ?? )
Hi DrO
In your previous message you mention keeping track of treatments, dosages, and behavior. I presume by dosages you are referring to the regumate. When I gave her the last batch I just followed the instructions which based dosage on so many ml per body weight. Are you saying that I should play around with the dosages ?? Many give her more or less some days and see how it affects her ??
Thanks again - I really appreciate your advice
Emma
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 20, 2002 - 7:19 am:
Emma,
You canot diagnose a ovarian tumor this way. The diagnosis is explained in the article Granulosa Cell Tumors, however your behavorial changes are not what are usually seen. When I speak of dosages I was not speaking to any one treatment but to any medication of supplement you might give. I do not see a reason to vary the amount of Regumate.
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jun 21, 2002 - 8:41 am:
Hi Emma,
No I admit I've not used it, I'm saving it as a last resort when Cara's drugs either completely wipe out my wallet, or we can't properly control her seizures any more.
I think I know what you mean about her eyes. Just a couple of times I've seen Cara look sort of heavy around hers and on both occasions she has gone on to have a seizure. Its such a subtle thing, no wonder we can't properly describe it. Humans often feel strange for several hours before an epileptic seizure and as a dog can be trained to "see" something in their owners face and warn them of an impending seizure maybe we are a bit tuned in to but without being completely aware of our ability.
At least there is one good thing in your favour - narcolepsy is rarely likely to cause the horse to injure itself. Rearing over backwards with epilepsy is a whole different ball game unfortunately for me.
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