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  Discussion on Emergency Treatment for Laminitis
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New Member:
Kg6hdp

Posted on Friday, Sep 8, 2006 - 1:21 pm:

I have a donkey jennet (Mammoth Jackstock) nicknamed Jet who has recently foundered. This donkey has non-clinical pedal osteitis from unknown causes. In February, she became acutely lame. I was convinced she foundered, but the vet insisted that she hadn't. I even had another vet out to check Jet, but by the time the second vet could come out, Jet wasn't lame at all (about ten days). On June 28, Jet was again acutely lame. It took me five days to get a diagnosis (as it was near the 4th of July holiday) from a third vet, and laminitis was confirmed by x-rays. I am sure that Jet foundered in February as the farrier noticed differences in Jet's hoof growth since then. The third vet said Jet had two degrees rotation in the left front and three degrees in the right foot. Before the second shoeing (since the last founder episode), I took Jet to another vet for x-rays, and he said no rotation in the left and two to three degrees in the right. My farrier discussed the last set of x-rays with me, and we both feel the fourth vet is correct regarding the rotation.

I'm still not sure what caused the founder. Jet is an easy keeper and is slightly overweight. The fourth vet thought she was a little overweight, but not too bad. In February, the ryegrass and weeds in the field were just beginning to shoot up. The first vet looked at the field and said that there wasn't enough green stuff to cause founder. My hay at the time was very stemmy. Since the first two vets insisted that Jet didn't founder, I put her back in the field without problems until June. In June, the field was mainly dirt. I did notice that the bindweed that was in the field had disappeared. The donkeys wouldn't eat it until the grass was eaten down. Several local horsemen have told me that the bindweed can cause problems, including founder, as it's toxic. However, I have taken this donkey from a hay diet to lush mountain meadows on pack trips without any problems. Where we used to live she had her fill of acorns in the fall, and when I was on a trip the donkey sitter fed her hay that was almost straight clover. I have another donkey that has Cushings and is insulin resistant and has never foundered. I feed everyone a low carb diet, and feed only grass hay (though sometimes the grass hay has some alfalfa). The older donkey with Cushings has never foundered, and gets the same diet as Jet does.

During this whole episode, I received very little guidance from the vets. Where I now live, getting a vet to come out for an emergency is next to impossible.The standard answer when you tell them that your donkey won't get up and is extremely lame is that they could work you in next week. Nearly all the emergency treatment my donkey received was from me, and I had no experience with founder. I had Bute on hand and I stalled Jet with bedding. For the second episode, the farrier came out and pulled Jet's shoes (She has shoes in front for the pedal osteitis). Since I'm not exactly sure what caused the founder, I feel I need to be ready to act with better emergency treatment should Jet have another episode.

I have been corresponding with two donkey owners that have experience with founder, and they have been giving lots of additional information. If Jet has another episode, I will again confine her to her stall which I will bed deeply. I will have the shoes pulled. I bought the foam pads, which I will tape to her feet. Of course, I will feed 1 gram of bute in the morning and evening. These are the standard things, but what else can I do?

I bought some EZ Ice wraps which I keep in the freezer. The articles on this site imply that icing the front legs only works before the founder becomes acute--after a grain overload incident, for example. One of my correspondents tells me that icing the feet in the first 24 hours of acute founder helps. When Jet foundered, she laid down and refused to get up. When she got up and I tried to soak her foot in ice water, she sent the bucket flying. I can apply the wraps when she's laying down. Will it help?

A recommendation by the other correspondent is milk thistle, a herb that is traditionally used to detoxify the liver. (The fourth vet rolled his eyes when I told him that I was giving Jet milk thistle.) A problem with milk thistle is that, if given with the Bute, it will cause the Bute to be less effective. The milk thistle makes sense since the liver helps with blood clotting, affects glucose levels in the blood, and cleans the blood. Has anyone else heard of using milk thistle for founder?

I have many more questions, but this is already long.

Jet is doing fine now. I feed her a small amount of beet pulp that contains a vitamin/mineral supplement with biotin and the milk thistle. We're using EDSS impression material under her pads. I'm slowing decreasing the amount of hay. Unfortunately, all four of my donkeys are fed together though they are fed separately for a short time each morning. They all need to lose weight except for the Cushings donkey. I'll need to find a way to supplement the Cushings donkey separately so he doesn't lose weight.
Member:
Dawson

Posted on Friday, Sep 8, 2006 - 2:31 pm:

Hi; read the section on founder/laminitis as it has been discussed very frequently, and it is very thorough.

Frequently all an owner can do is guess at the cause, and treat the symptoms. Being overweight-aged-too much greenery-too much grain or your horse was just plain toxic from whatever the list of causes is endless. If someone came up with a test that would prove the origin of a horses founder they'd be rich.

Basic;
Hose down the legs/feet or use ice for twenty minutes periods several times a day.

Decrease or discontinue grain(depending on animal/condition ck w/your Vet)

Our Vet said stress-dex was ok, but no super suppliments.(we don't use them anyways) Vet also suggested senior suppliments(older horses) Remember your trying to make her less toxic.

Stall rest-lots of bedding, and when she's feeling better gradual excercise-start with a half hour in a small paddock-no greenery-no trotting/cantering.

Banamine-instead of Bute(Bute can cause ulcers) Always check with your Vet.

You mentioned buying the pads for his feet. The styrafoam procedure we used under Vet and Blacksmith supervision requires each foot w/a support pad followed by a cushion pad. It's described in an earlier discussion. And if you choose this method do not forget you must remove all the extra bedding out of the stall.
WARNING! DO NOT impliment on your own unless you know what you are doing or you might end up with a worse condition.

Keep the feet trimmed up and if you can alternate ice packs/hosing with bucket soaks. It was suggested to us to use an epsom salt soak. Some are too sore for this procedure.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Sep 8, 2006 - 6:56 pm:

Welcome Nancy,
Don't study just the discussions but read the articles they help you answer the questions you have raised, discuss specifically the treatment for founder, and my guess is covers many of your as yet unasked questions. Burros and ponies are prone to Metabolic SynDrOme and I have not heard of mild thistle as a treatment. Metabolic SynDrOme is one of the articles on the Founder Topic Menu.
DrO
New Member:
Kg6hdp

Posted on Saturday, Sep 9, 2006 - 12:05 am:

I have printed out the sections on laminitis, and I have read them. The section on soaking the feet is unclear to me. The first paragraph indicates that icing the feet works before founder develops. The second paragraph says to me that soaking the hoof was done in the past but that soaking probably doesn't do any good. Dawson indicates that soaking helps. Others have told me icing the hooves helps. I am still unclear that it does any good though.

I will contact the donkey owner that first told me about icing the feet, as I believe her vet was involved in a study regarding icing the feet as a laminitis treatment. Perhaps I can find a reference.

Regarding the Metabolic SynDrOme, I have one donkey that was tested for both Cushings and insulin resistance---he has both. My vet where I used to live gave me articles and information on how to deal with insulin resistance. This donkey is on Pergolide and has never foundered. I am aware that donkeys are prone to founder. My current vet said don't waste your money on testing--all donkeys will show up insulin resistant compared to horses.

I am not understanding why the bedding should be removed when using the foam pads. Jet gets pressure sores from laying down, so I wouldn't want her lying on the bare mats. The pads I have are thick foam which I tape on with duct tape. I used them without farrier or vet supervision.

My concern is that I need to know what to do without a vet. In our area we do not have enough large animal vets, and some of those we do have are lacking in judgement or experience. None of the vets that saw Jet offered any treatment recommendations aside from banamine or bute. They liked my farrier's work--and that was about it....

Nancy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Sep 9, 2006 - 7:39 am:

You are going to run in to differences of opinion Nancy, expecially when inquiring about a disease that is as complicated as founder.

I have quit soaking feet in water for founder because I don't believe it changes the outcome and their is no science to support the treatment. In cases where you cannot get professional help I would follow the treatments detailed in the Overview article.
DrO
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Sep 9, 2006 - 8:34 am:

Regarding the soaking of feet, icing to cool down the feet, we had a Shetland Pony prone to founder. In the winter when her greed got the best of her on plain ol' hay, her feet would heat up, her digital pulse would go up....and we'd see her standing off by herself in the deepest snow she could find. And everytime I'd check her and her hooves would be warm, pulse stronger and faster than normal. I took it that she was self medicating....she was a very smart little thing.

DrO, why would you quit soaking the feet, isn't the goal to cool the hooves down as much as possible, as soon as possible?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Sep 9, 2006 - 6:10 pm:

Angie, the experts have been divided on this question for quite some time and many have even practiced soaking in hot water because of the theory that decreased blood supply is the primary event leading to damage. Hot water, cold water, no water, I did not see any difference in outcome over hundred of cases.

The bottom line is I have a lot of success with both acute and chronic founders and I don't soak unless I am trying to draw out an abscess. Under proper circumstances however I would use the icing regimen described in the article for the prevention following a medical event that looked like it would lead to severe founder.
DrO
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Sep 10, 2006 - 9:13 pm:

Interesting......hard to believe bringing cold to foundered feet has no affect.

Live and learn I guess.
New Member:
Kg6hdp

Posted on Monday, Sep 11, 2006 - 12:12 am:

The lady that told me about icing the feet used to do donkey rescue and has lots of founder experience. Her vet uses the methods of Dr Redden.

Dr Redden's website seems to be "talking to" vets and farriers, so I found it a little confusing. But I think he recommends ice only in the first hours of founder symptoms.

I think for emergency first aid should Jet founder again, I will use the ice wraps when I first notice symptoms. Should she get out of the pen (she's good at opening gates) I will ice her feet just in case. I don't think ice would hurt, and it might do some good.

Remember that I can't expect getting a vet out quickly. And some of the local vets only offer pain pills and X-rays as treatment. They let my farrier decide what to do regarding the shoes. Oh well, no advice is better than bad advice....

Nancy
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Monday, Sep 11, 2006 - 12:40 am:

My vets instructions when i had a grain overload and founder was a possible complication was to ice the feet as many times a day as possible. I even had a post up here about how to do it, since i was having so many problems, getting the ice to stay on. Did it truly help? i haven't a clue, she did show slight signs of colic behvior but not full blown, she is highly overweight, and older and shows signs of insulin resistance, etc. So when the vet heard all this he did recommend icing.

although this part is contentious. complete stall rest, with bute/or banamine, milk thistle is a detoxifying agent and i've never used it, but heard its praises time and again from every kind of animal, birds, dogs, horses... But the point above about how things work in tandem, but i don't think milk thistle will create more of a problem than you already have.

Did you Stop all grain? soak your hay to get out any sugars. I'd even stop the beet pulp for now. Its a feed stuff to add weight with little nutritious value. have you Stopped all grazing. well, at least for now till you get a handle on it. and get the weight down. The articles on here are like the bible for emergencies. well for me any way. Do you know what prompted the founder episode?

If your farrier can come out every 2 weeks to monitor and lightly trim that might help. I would get xrays if you do find the vet to come out. even for the sake of future episodes you can figure out changes taking place. do you think there is possible rotation or sinking?

Hope he is getting better.
New Member:
Kg6hdp

Posted on Saturday, Sep 16, 2006 - 11:13 pm:

Thanks for all the advice.

Regarding the last post, I don't feed the donkeys any grain at all--they don't need it. The beet pulp is to get mineral supplements down as we are in a low selenium area, and the hay also comes from a low selenium area. Our water and soils are deficient in calcium, potassium, manganese, and zinc. Beet pulp in small amounts doesn't put on weight and does provide calcium and fiber. The beet pulp I use doesn't have added molasses. I also feed a small amount of Black Oil sunflower seeds in the shell (1 cup=300 calories). (Beet pulp is recommended for equines with Cushings.)

The field is mainly dirt now, so all the donkeys have access to it 24/7. When the rains start I'll need to restrict access to the field. We haven't had rain since May, and even the weeds are gone.

I doubt if the grass in the field was the cause of either of the founder episodes. The field has never had lush grass, was formerly a pear orchard, and has been fallow for three years. The naturalized ryegrass that grows all over was probably planted years ago as a cover crop for the orchards--not one of these new high sugar grasses. I think the problem is the weeds. In February, the new green shoots were mainly weeds (sow thistle, dock, buttercup). I tried planting native grasses in one corner, but they didn't germinate.

Nancy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Sep 17, 2006 - 10:00 am:

Again Nancy, we recommend you follow the advice in our article but all treatment should be OK'd by your regular veterinarian. The only plant that I am aware of that causes founder directly is Black Walnut. Buttcups (several Ranunculus sp) an cause remarkable systemic illness and colic however. For more on this see the Poisonous Plant section.
DrO
Member:
Kg6hdp

Posted on Sunday, Sep 17, 2006 - 4:26 pm:

Regarding Black Walnut problems, there are around six species of Black Walnut in America, and some may not be as problematic as others. In Lake County, California, where I live, walnuts are a major agricultural crop. The trees are old English varieties, but the rootstock is Black Walnut. Some people don't keep the suckers trimmed and end up with Black Walnut trees. Horse owners here run their horses under the walnut trees. Someone I know used to keep her horses under Black Walnut trees. The only problem I know of is that horses have choked on the walnut shells. A vet told me that, in her practice, she has never had an illness from the walnut trees except for occasional hives in the spring.

I have a commercial walnut orchard on my property, but it is over 350 feet from the donkey field. When I first moved here, I put up temporary fencing for the donkeys under the walnut trees for two months. The donkeys ate the leaves and the walnuts, but they didn't have access to the rootstocks. The donkeys adore walnuts. I had no founder then.

Founder is so hard to fathom. Jet has been exposed to conditions many times in the past that could have caused founder but did not founder. If you could have seen the field both times Jet foundered, you'd be wondering what could have caused the problem.

Nancy
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Sep 17, 2006 - 5:34 pm:

Standing in shavings contaminated with Black Walnut is what is supposed to be so dangerous. Even a small percentage (2%?) supposedly could cause an acute and serious founder.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Sep 18, 2006 - 6:25 am:

Diane, though I have heard of one other specie of walnut called a Butternut (Juglans cinerea) that produces the toxin juglone I am only aware of one specie of black walnut (Juglans nigra). And it is the only specie that I am aware of that has caused founder. There may cultivars but I think it is just these two species that have documented juglone production.

Vicki, though standing on the shavings is certainly the most common way it is reported, there have also been cases of exposure through ingestion of bark and the toxin is found in all parts of the plant and even on the ground in the drip zone of the tree's canopy.
DrO
Member:
Erika

Posted on Monday, Sep 18, 2006 - 8:22 am:

Okay, got me a little worried...My property is full of Black Walnut trees. The entire tree line of one pasture is Locust and BW, and the major shade for my small barn is BW. My neighbor's pasture is full of BW and her horses used to eat the bark!
Only one of my horses has ever had laminitis in twenty years here. She is insulin resistant, and we believed it to be the increase fructans in the grass during early fall to be the culprit. Perhaps we were wrong?
Walnut trees are EVERYWHERE around here, and I don't know a single pasture without it. Any precautions, short of cutting them all down, that we should take to avoid problems?
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Monday, Sep 18, 2006 - 11:41 am:

Thanks Dr. O. Personally I would want to eliminate any exposure whatsoever of my horses to any part of the Walnut tree, and because I don't know for sure whether it is safe, I would not give them any nuts or nut meats either. Do you know if that part is bad for them?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 19, 2006 - 6:33 am:

Erika, we too have black walnut on one of our horse properties and have not had problems, but it is reported in the literature with horses chewing on trees. I have only seen the standing on shavings form personally.

You do sound like you have more trees than I do though. I would monitor for evidence of chewing on the bark and if it occurs follow our directions for protecting trees at Care for Horses » Nutrition » Pica: Horses Eating Inappropriate Materials. Also raking up leaves and nuts should lower ground contamination with jugalone.
DrO
Member:
Erika

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 19, 2006 - 9:16 am:

Thanks, Doc. The tree line is near a quarter of a mile long. I doubt if raking would be realistic. The good news us that most tree trunks are on the other side of the fence in my pastures, and I have plenty of (too much!)pasture, so hopefully they won't be tempted by any BW.
It's been ten years or more since the laminitis.
Member:
Kg6hdp

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 - 1:24 am:

I believe all walnut trees produce jugalone. The reference books I have are for growing walnuts, so I couldn't confirm this. The jugalone suppresses the growth of other plants below the walnut tree.

In the west, we have four black walnut species--the Northern California black walnut (J. hindsii), the Southern California black walnut (J. californica), the Arizona black walnut (J. major), and the Texas black walnut (J. microcarpa). Perhaps these are not as toxic as the Eastern black walnut.

I don't think horses can crack open the black walnut nuts as they are so hard. They usually love the English walnuts, but they can choke on the shells. Also the nuts that have been laying on the ground can develop a fungus or bacteria (I can't remember which) that is very toxic to dogs.

Walnut trees are pretty and the nuts are healthful, but I'd never plant one near a house or pasture or where you park your car.

Nancy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 - 7:53 am:

Nancy my books on tree identification and Wikepedia all leave out the "black" moniker in the common name of those species. And all the work on founder and horses has been done with the Juglans nigra specie.

Concerning juglone production, I did find one other specie that has had this confirmed, Juglans regia. It may well be as you say perhaps they are less toxic. But also to consider is it just has not been reported or recognized yet.
DrO
Member:
Kg6hdp

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 - 8:12 pm:

J. regia is the Persian or English walnut--the commercial variety.

The four species I listed plus J. nigra are members of the Rhysocaryon section, otherwise known as black walnuts.

I'm getting my information from UC Davis publications.

Nancy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 - 7:52 am:

Got it, I can find the taxonomic designation Rhysocaryon, which are considered the black walnut section and include those species you list above along with what I consider traditionally the black walnut. So I will amend my post above to read only the "Eastern" Black Walnut has been reported associated with founders and all other above cautions still apply. I love it when I learn something new on this site.
DrO
Member:
Kathleen

Posted on Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 - 9:40 am:

DrO,
"I love it when I learn something new on this site. "
Join the crowd, except we say that nearly every day.
Kathleen
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