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Discussion on First aid Advice for Puncture Wound inside Rear Leg
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 - 4:52 pm:
DrO.,
I was out enjoying a beautiful fall ride in the woods only to have Cody shoot out and up like a rocket suddenly.
I dismounted and saw bleeding, put a wad of kleenex on it, and walked slowly home, 1.5 miles I am guessing.
Slight bleeding the whole time, thought some prickly weeds, or raspberry bushes gouged him.
After hosing it off and checking with a flash light, here's what I found:
A deep, 2" at least, puncture wound inside his left rear leg. If you look at his flank, go straight down, then looking underneath, it is mid way between the flank and his sheath. Right in the crease. Must have been a freaky thing with a branch jabbing him from a downed tree.
(I am a little shook up yet, can't think of one body part!)
I gave him 3 CC of Tetanous. And stuck NFZ in the wound as best I could.
This was after a conversation with my farrier who I called for immediate advice.
Questions: Is he better off outside or in his stall? He's really stiff now, about 2 hours later. I worry the other horses will knock him right down, he doesn't seem to be doing too well on 3 legs right now.
Should I give him Penicillin today, or as my farrier said, what and see how the wound looks tomorrow.
He suggested 2 shots of 20 cc each in each hind qtr., 2 days, followed by 1 shot daily for another 2 days, if the wound looked infected.
Are there any specific concerns regarding a puncture wound in this area? Any close internal organs, long term muscle damage?
The wound looked like it was clotting, and when I got a glance up in it, well, it looked awful to my eye of course, but I didn't see anything foreign, looked red is all....probably looking at muscle tissue?
Should I take a turkey baster and shoot some Betadine solution in it as per the puncture wound article?
And of course rinse it good twice a day, and re apply antibiotic?
Thanks,
My sweet Cody: why do these things happen to your best horse always?
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Member:
Annes
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 - 6:35 pm:
Angie, I would definitely keep him away from the other horses and I think a small paddock by himself to provide a little exercise would be good. By all means flush with the betadine mixture at least 2x a day and make sure you don't have any swelling or signs of infection. If it were me I would get my vet to examine it. I hope Cody has a speedy recovery.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 - 8:02 pm:
Thanks Ann,
I have him in with the oldest mare for company as the 2 young ones were wanting to play.
Looking at it again, it appears to be about 1.5" by 1" at the mouth of the opening. So looks bigger than I thought at first. But I still think at least 2" deep.
And more in the inner thigh than the crease...I'll try to get a picture tomorrow, seems my mind is a little on the fritz right now and don't trust my memory.
Still a little bit of draining going on, his tail is red at the end of it, his leg wet, but not gushing blood so I am not too concerned about that part of it.
He's grazing/eating hay, just not putting weight on that leg. Warm around his flank and haunch area. Feet are cool, my other concern.
Happy to see me if I don't poke around too much!!
If I think our large animal vet has anything to offer that I can't do myself, or purchase myself, I will call her. But I haven't had positive experiences with her and horses.
Now if DrO would only respond so I can get a better nights sleep......just ease my mind Doc?
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 - 9:28 pm:
DrO,
Just got done reading about Splodge under Badly cut Foal, wondering about some of the treatments....Do I need anything besides water, antibiotic ointment? Something besides straight penicillin if I start that?
If I don't have vet out tomorrow, I will see her this weekend at Equifest and would like to be knowledgeable as far as options for treatments go.
No more questions tonight, promise!!!!
And thanks much.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Sep 22, 2006 - 6:50 am:
Good Morning Angie,
This is a common horse injury and I agree that the occurred from a stick jabbing up into the inguinal area. In some of these wounds pieces break off and is left trapped up in the wound so the horse needs a thorough exam of the deepest parts of this wound. My guess is this will require sedation and possibly light surgery to insure adequate exploration and drainage.
Besides the first aid for wound care which you will find at Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases » Wounds / Burns » Wounds: First Aid Care your questions about antibiotics are covered at Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases » Wounds / Burns » Long Term Deep Wound Care.
DrO
PS Angie, you should not look upon this site as a replacement for emergency veterinary care when there are situations that you are unsure of. We provide extensive articles on first aid and emergency therapy that you can access without waiting for a reply and these may help you. But if the situation requires emergency consultation, you should always call your veterinarian.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Sep 22, 2006 - 7:36 am:
Thanks DrO,
As soon as it is light out, I will see what the wound looks like this morning after water treatment.
I was not thinking emergency treatment, but wanted to clarify that I am doing what needs to be done at this time. (to me, emergency means lots of gushing blood, broken bones, shock,)
Slept better than I thought I would, so thinking more clearly now.
Have the printed articles from the above subjects.
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Member:
Banthony
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Posted on Friday, Sep 22, 2006 - 8:41 am:
Angie,
My horse came in from the pasture with a similar wound many years ago. I had the vet out and she explored it but couldn't find anything left in it. I did a round of antibiotics, bute, and flushing and it closed over.
But it started abscessing every 3-6 months for the next 2 years! It was probed, ultrasounded, etc. but nothing was ever found. The vets wanted me to call them just before it burst so they could follow the tract, but for one reason or another that never happened.
Finally after 2 years it resolved on its own. Either the foreign body finally came out or was walled off by scar tissue so not to trigger an immune response.
I would definitely recommend a veterinary exam.
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Member:
Corinne
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Posted on Friday, Sep 22, 2006 - 10:45 am:
Angie,
My thoughts and prayers are with you and Cody! Good luck with the wound care. I meant to write and tell you after this all happened but I got caught up with school work. Hope he heals well soon with no complications!
Hugs!
Corinne
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Sep 22, 2006 - 11:33 am:
Thanks Linda and Corinne.
Waiting for the vet to return my call, have left 2 messages.
Not sure how well I did with the water getting in there, but don't think I would enjoy water hitting it either with a wound like that.
Cody is really, really hurting, but his attitude is good. Standing lightly on that leg, but not wanting to walk. Some shaking in just that area, not his whole body at this time.
I am concerend about the depth of the wound, I used a 20cc syringe to put a Betadine solution in the wound, and the syringe went all the way in!!!
Can anyone tell me about possible long term muscle damage?
DR.O,
The penicillin I have is called Twin Pen, says about use for cattle, but nothing about horses. If my vet don't get back to me, and I feel the need to use Penicillin, would that be acceptable, and at what dose...20cc in each back leg as my farrier suggested?
Will post again if vet shows up.
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Member:
Corinne
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Posted on Friday, Sep 22, 2006 - 11:59 am:
Angie,
With the shaking....what is his temp? Is he still hydrated and urinating normally? Are his mucous membranes ie...gums pink and moist?
Corinne
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Sep 22, 2006 - 1:02 pm:
Though there are many products that are perfectly acceptable in either animal, I cannot really comment on a product that I cannot examine. We do have information on the different forms of penicillin available and you may find more pertinent information here: Treatments and Medications for Horses » Antibiotics and Antimicrobials » Penicillin.
Permanent muscle damage is unlikely from the wound you describe unless it becomes complicated by serious infection.
DrO
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Member:
Banthony
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Posted on Friday, Sep 22, 2006 - 2:32 pm:
Angie - are you giving him anything for pain and inflammation? Bute?
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Sep 22, 2006 - 4:26 pm:
To clarify, Cody was only a little shaky in the area of his flank. Vitals were fine this morning, drinking and urinated good. Will check all this evening.
Have not heard back from the vet, I do know that I will see 2 vets tomorrow at Equifest; one I've used before who comes for 90 minutes away, and another I haven't met from about 400 miles away that is working with my equine dentist who will be here. At least I think he will be with the dentist, I hope so as this vet is totally EQUINE, and has 20 years experience. If I have to beg, bribe or whatever it takes, I'll see if he can make time after Equifest to come out if no one else will respond!!!
DrO,
The Twin Pen bottle says:
Each ML contains 150,000 units penicillin G benzathine,
and 150,000 units of penicillin G procaine
with small amounts of preservatives and other stuff.
It says it's good for Bacterial Pneumonia, Upper Respiratory infections and Blackleg...for cattle.
I did order this from a horse catalog!
I don't feel real comfortable giving that as I worry about bad reactions I can't respond to correctly.
Would you recommend Bute as this time? I do have some tablets left and have success giving them ground up in molasses using an empty wormer tube.
A little off subject but something that I am curious about:
I have always thought Bute was like ibuprofen, works on swelling and pain.
My husband learned from medical personal at work, that ibuprofen should never be given the first 24 hours after an injury as it interferes with the swelling. It prevents the swelling, which in turn slows down the healing.
I guess after 24 hours it's o.k. to use.
Any comments on this and Bute in horses?
I did not give Bute yet for that reason but think I will now.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Sep 22, 2006 - 4:29 pm:
And DrO, thanks for the encouraging words on the muscle damage. I guess I can be thankful that it was only muscles that were punctured, not any thing important like his heart, kidneys, etc.
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Member:
Dawson
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Posted on Friday, Sep 22, 2006 - 6:00 pm:
Angie; I agree if you are not sure of what you are giving or how Cody will react I'd wait for the Vet. If his vitals are good, he eats, drinks, his gums are pink and the plumbing is working he sounds in good shape, and not overly uncomfortable.
As far as Bute, I use it as my second choice because it can tough on the stomach. Banamine eases discomfort and helps with swelling.
BUT.... if you have not given Cody either of these before a reaction is possible, I'd keep dialing... for a vet. It's hard not to worry at times like these hang in there.
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Member:
Kstud
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Posted on Friday, Sep 22, 2006 - 7:04 pm:
Hi Angie, poor Cody, that is such a sore wound. I see that you read my mail on Splodge, even though I am a vet myself, when I heard about Splodge's injuries I got my husband to call another vet straight away as I would not be home for 4 or 5 hours. I guess what I am saying is that it is vital to have a vet look at any wound that is dirty or deep to ensure that it is cleaned out properly and as soon as possible after the injury. At least you do not have to worry then about there being anything left in the wound. It sounds like this is difficult where you are, but without at least sedating the horse I cannot see how the wound can be properly evaluated. If Cody has been given Penicillin before then the Penicillin you have is fine and should not cause a reaction. Without knowing his weight it is not possible to recommend a dose but 40mls would be a very large dose.
With the amount of pain you mention I really think Cody should be examined by a vet but in the meantime if he is getting sick or sorer then you should probably give the Penicillin (using new needle, clean syringe and deep intramuscular site). My fear with puncture wounds is anaerobic bacteria and I often flush the wound once with HyDrOgen Peroxide, the 6% then diluted one in three with sterile water. I know that in some quarters this is not favoured but in deep puncture wounds it can flush out a lot of debris. I would follow this with DR O's pressurised water .
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Sep 22, 2006 - 8:56 pm:
Catherine,
Hi, Ya, I read about Splodge and found it encouraging, heart breaking and informative...all at the same time. Glad he's doing better, what an ordeal, huh? Most people would have put him down I bet.
I did finally talk to 2 different vets, both within an hour of each other. Seems both were having days filled with emergencies, and my regular vet only got "missed calls" on her cell, no messages.
So it don't appear anyone can look into the wound much now as it is closing up already. I can see a difference from this morning, don't know if it's healing or swelling or both?
Cody was a little less perky, but still eating. My husband helped with the water and I feel we got a good amount of flushing done.
Per vets instructions Cody got flushed, Betadine shot into wound again, the Penicillin, 2 shots of 20cc, (he's about 1500 lbs, measured the more accurate way of taking the heart girth, length, and using some formula) 2 tabs of Bute. And temp taken....101 just barely at that mark.
I'll check again before bed to see if he drank, he emptied 2 buckets at noon, but no pee, just manure.
I have arranged to meet my regular vet on a dairy farm tomorrow afternoon and get another bottle of Bute Pills from her, and 2 cans of some powder antibiotic so I can stop with the shots....I don't like giving penicillin...so much to put into the horse!
I am praying there is nothing left inside the wound, and hope fully Cody will eat whatever the powder antibiotic is! I have molasses fingers from the Bute mixture.....Poor Cody, getting things stuck in him every where.
He's my "squealing, bucker"...we always laugh cuz he sounds like a girl!! And he has such a distinct paw, buck, squeal routine! It's tough to see him barely moving.
Thanks everyone for your help.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Friday, Sep 22, 2006 - 9:33 pm:
Hey, Angie,
The powder is probably Tucoprim . . . Like Sulfamethoxazole-Trimethoprim, but our vet here told us today that it is tougher on the stomach . . . so if Cody starts with diarrhea with the Tucoprim, you can try a couple TBLS of yogurt. Also, usually, you can double up on the Bute for the first loading dose . . . then give one, twice a day for the second day, then give one a day . . . per our vet's recommendations. Hope you see some improvement soon . . . Today might be the most sore day for him . . . and at least you have some other options for a vet now.
Look forward to hearing good news.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 23, 2006 - 7:59 am:
We regularly use ibuprofen or naproxen on our own injuries when they occur. If there is an adverse effect on the outcome of healing I am unaware of it.
It sounds like this wound is much deeper than originally thought. It sounds like you have the antibiotic and bute issue covered but I sure would like to see that wound examined thoroughly while the horse is under sedation.
DrO
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 23, 2006 - 8:31 am:
DrO,
I agree. I checked Cody about 11 last night, and I didn't like what I saw: Swelling worse down the leg, and I thought the wound itself looked worse. Light drainage doing on, but of course the Bedatine solution is draining out too.
I felt heat in all of his feet, but he was standing like before, didn't seem more uncomfortable. I didn't think the digital pulse was any different though.
He's still eating and all, eyes look good.
Vet will be doing surgery on a cow nearby at 3 she hopes, so I will see it I can connect with her this morning and ask her to come here after and check the wound better.
I assume this can be done at home, under sedation?
Will it involve cutting into the area more?
We don't own a trailer, and the other clinic isn't keen on sending vets out on call, but it is an option.
Is it too soon to be expecting improvement in the lameness from pain, and the swelling to be subsiding? The accident happened about 1:45 Thursday afternoon. I think it got worse, not better the first 24 hours.
Holly,
I was just discussing the yogurt with Brian as we were having some with our oatmeal; thanks for the reminder, I planned on looking for that info on here as I recall it being discussed.
Off to torment poor Cody some more...wish me luck.
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Member:
Lilo
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 23, 2006 - 9:08 am:
Good luck with Cody! You have a tough situation, not having Vets nearby. Makes me feel grateful - having a Vet who will do emergency calls, and a Veterinary Hospital about a 40 minute trailer ride away.
Best wishes for a complete recovery,
Lilo
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Member:
Kstud
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 23, 2006 - 1:51 pm:
Hi Angie, I don't think it is good at all that the wound is closing. I think Cody needs to be sedated and the wound opened right up and explored then flushed out and left open to drain. Closing too soon is the biggest problem with puncture wounds and you could get septicaemia or worse. Think you will have to stamp your feet a bit here and insist a vet comes out. Hang on there Angie, it is so horrible when everything is going badly but I am sure he will be fine after.
Catherine
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 23, 2006 - 4:07 pm:
Lilo, thanks.
Catherine,
I do have vet coming later today, or early this evening. I suspect it will be later than sooner. And yes, I am going to insist on sedation and the wound be looked at, and flushed thoroughly. It's in a really bad spot to see much of anything, and that's with my head on the ground looking up and a flashlight in my free hand.
Cody was feeling sassy this morning, and the flushing did not go well. We have done it in another stall, (porous flooring, and old hay to absorb the water, not as bad as you might be thinking) as it's been raining here. I think we only got water in him, or near the wound, for 5 minutes.
I did though feel the wound when using the syringe to put the Betadine solution in him...again the tube almost got lost in him! Felt "solid" as far as my fingers went in. Not "raw" I guess is what I am saying.
He was happy to go out in the round pen and graze for an hour, then just as happy to come in as the flies were horrible. Now he's out again, and it's nice to see him moving a little bit better. Eyes still bright, attitude good. But I know that don't guarantee there is nothing inside the wound yet that can still make trouble.
I do see thickening under his stomach on that side and the outer and inner thigh which is what I am worried about. I am sure some swelling is normal, but not sure how far it should be spreading. And I can't say how much is right around the actual hole.
If my vet doesn't do anything,(and once she's here, I am sure she'll do a thorough examination) I have the names and numbers of 2 who are here this weekend for Equifest...both volunteered to help me out if I needed them!! One from WI, one from Lower MI, so I feel much better knowing that.
The one may retire here, so I want to stay in contact with that one for sure.
I'll let you know after the vet leaves what's what.
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Member:
Corinne
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 23, 2006 - 4:59 pm:
Oh Angie...still praying for you and Cody and hopefully the vet will make it out to be able to explore. Sending good energy and prayers your way!
Don't forget to breath if you must put your foot down! It will allow you to stay rational!
Hugs via internet for your boy.
Take care,
Corinne
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 23, 2006 - 7:52 pm:
Hey Corinne, I think your healing thoughts helped, as did everyone elses...your email made my smile!
Here's what the vet did:
Sedated Cody, but left him standing. Pulled about 4-5 b.b. sized pieces of bark/wood out of the wound. Very Stinky Pieces!!!
Flushed the wound very well with water, and then pushed 3 syringes of Betadine solution through the wound.
One IV of Banamine.
Gave him 2 more shots of Penicillin, 20cc. each, (nice, I don't have to do that anymore)
She also thought the dose was a little high, but did that amount...interesting.
Left a bottle of Bute tabs with me, to be given at my descrection.
Left me with 2 cans of Tucoprin(?)
Dose: 2 scoops 2x daily for up to 14 days. Can go less if wound doesn't "smell or look bad".
After she left, I checked the wound myself while Cody was sleepy yet.
I could stick 3 of my fingers up in the area, and by pushing hard against his skin where it hit my thumb and little finger area, I felt the end of the puncture, barely. So we are talking 5" to 6" deep, and the shape as if a spear went in, ya know, 3 or 4 sided point? And 3 fingers wide.
Probably a NO, NO, but I did that bare handed so I could feel around good. I did not feel anything except smooth muscle (I presume) felt like it was healing.
I also cleaned his sheath the while he was so nice and relaxed...how rude of me, huh? He has a hard tumor like thing the size of a large jelly bean, but it's inside, so looks like I have something else to watch. Forgot to ask vet about it. Darn.
DR.O,
If I have trouble rinsing the wound with water, at this point, and just get the Betadine in there, how bad would that be? I would like to do 3 syringes of Betadine 2x daily....and that's asking him to tolerate a lot. (tomorrow I will rinse him outside, may do better than inside)
Anything you would suggest different?
I feel pretty good with the way Cody is acting and the wound cleaning.
So knocking on wood here, saying lots of little prayers.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 23, 2006 - 9:23 pm:
What is Tucoprin? I don't see it listed here, did a search here and googled.
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Member:
Wgillmor
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 23, 2006 - 9:46 pm:
Angie,
Tucoprim. A brand name for a combination of Trimethoprim and Sulfadiazine. Our vet swears it is more palatable than the usual sulfa drugs, but that is not my experience.
https://www.pfizerah.com/product_overview.asp?drug=TU&country=US&lang=EN&species= EQ
Wiley
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 23, 2006 - 10:13 pm:
Wo very wonderful to hear the news about your Cody. Ahhh . . . sleep well tonight.
Ditto to Wiley, Angie. I have used Tucoprim on at least two occasions, and have not had digestive upsets with it, but our vet here told us that it causes irritation in some horses . . . diarrhea. It's supposedly easier to administer in feed than are the Sulfamethoxazole tabs . . . but the tabs dissolve so easily in water, and are quite palatable in the horses I've had to dose with them.
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Member:
Corinne
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 23, 2006 - 10:16 pm:
So good to hear Angie that the vet was able to do some exploring and found some bits of sticks that needed to be removed.
For what it's worth, I know he will do just fine. I feel it in my heart. Anyway, I hear you and Brian (did I get your husband's name right?) might make it out in Oct or Nov (well to KS anyway). Herb and I and the dogs would love to come up and to meet you all and then you can exchange pics of a very healthy Cody romping around the turnout!
So tell Cody he better get well so he can pose for the camera.
Continue to keep us updated.
God Bless,
Corinne
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 24, 2006 - 9:00 am:
Those BB size contaminants would have kept the wound from healing properly for weeks or worse, may have set up infection that spread to surrounding healthy tissues.
The water under pressure will flush the exudate and bacteria out while keeping the wound open so that it can heal from the inside out. It is most important over the next 3 days to remove any contamination and give a chance for granulation tissue to form. For more on your antibiotic see, Treatments and Medications for Horses » Antibiotics and Antimicrobials » Trimethoprim -Sulfa.
DrO
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 24, 2006 - 2:32 pm:
DrO and Wiley,
Thanks for info on Tucoprim, I guess I could have just read the label. Feeling sheepish here.
Here's the good and not so good update:
GOOD: Cody is walking better on leg, barely dragging the heel now. He ate the med mixed in sweet feed with applesauce and molasses. 2 scoops seemed like a lot, and the can sure don't hold much!
We were able to flush the wound at close range for a good amount time...YA HOO!!
Got the syringe in him and flushed him good with Betadine solutine, and also was able to feel around in the wound again with my fingers....there is for sure one spot that is more tender than the rest and is the deepest part. (amazing what a bucket of grain does to take their mind off of what else is being done to them)
Gave him Bute again from empty worming tube, that was actually what he gave us the most trouble with!! I am going to try that in grain also, but not with the antibiotic in case he don't eat it.
Not so Good News: The stuff that drained over night looked yucky, so there is still something bothering inside I think.
The swelling under his stomach is like grapefruit sized. The vet said that was just how the wound was draining(?)
Need I do anything special with that, or will exercise and time take care of that? He is out grazing, has the whole pasture to himself, much to the dismay of the rest of the herd.
I was in the barn last night at 1 a.m. to give him hay as by then the tranq had worn off completely. He was "talking" a blue streak then, lol!!!
Thankfully Brian is on his long weekend and able to help until he goes to work, which is 10 Wed night. So Thursday morning I will be on my own; hopefully Cody will be done with any signs of infection in there by then.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 24, 2006 - 4:51 pm:
For the first 24 hours I would not be too concerned with yucky but lets watch to see if the drainage improves, though your yucky might be OK to me. Yes the swelling at the stomach is edema, you might try a little massage on that. Infection will not resolve completely till the wound completely heals but as long as the wound is healing and it can drain all will be well.
DrO
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Sep 25, 2006 - 6:58 pm:
DAY 4 UPDATE:
As far as I can tell, things are progressing good. Cody even trotted a few strides yesterday when he saw me with the halter, but he decided that wasn't the thing to do (ouch) and just walked away instead!
He's being an ANGEL; stands in the cross ties (they are not actually tied, but he don't know that) the while I flush his wound. And he's eating both the antibiotic and the Bute in his grain with lots of molasses and applesauce.
And my vet called to see how he was, another small miracle and she thought things sounded good. Just be glad when the swelling under his stomach goes down also as she said he has to stay on the antibiotics til that is gone.
I think I will just give Bute in the evening grain before he is stalled for the night and none in the morning, don't what him too frisky, do we on pasture?
My husband said if we ever build another barn in our life time, he will either put a wash area in, or slope the cement in the aisle....never planned on so much water in the barn!
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Sep 25, 2006 - 9:29 pm:
Updated too soon:
Tonight I got pieces of wood/bark out of the wound. There is another piece in there but I was not able to get it out, Cody was getting nasty and he's never done that before so I didn't push my luck. Was working alone, will try again tomorrow.
At least the pieces were loose, not embedded, so they are working their way out. (I hope)
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 26, 2006 - 7:21 am:
Considering what a difficult place this is to work in, if the wound is contaminated with dozens of small pieces of wood this may take a while. If there is a reason to believe there are still pieces lodged up in the wound, I would consider a short term anesthetic episode to turn the horse over so that a better attempt at cleaning the wound can be made.
DrO
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 26, 2006 - 5:19 pm:
DrO,
Vet will come Thursday noon. She said she may cut the skin so that she can get in the wound better. I guess she got all 4 of her fingers in there Sat night, I can only get 3 in and know I am not reaching the end of the wound as well as I would like.
She does NOT want to lay him down as she feels the wound will not drain as well. And will NOT sew up the cut if she makes one, thus keeping the wound open longer I guess.
I'd like to see him laid out also, and a good light held near the wound, the while we hold it open and dig into things.
More discharge than normal this morning. But Cody seems even better than yesterday, only see lameness when he extends that hind leg back and he hesitates a moment before bringing it forward in his stride.
We went and found the killer tree limb that did the damage. I hope to take a picture of it, and will try to uploade it here. I know it's the right limb, there is grey hair on the end of it!!!
Maybe Thursday before sedation wears off I can get a picture of the wound also. If nothing else for MY "vet career" file, grin.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 26, 2006 - 10:26 pm:
Everyone agrees no sutures but she does not feel she can get a better view with the horse unconscious, upside down, and with the legs spread wide?
DrO
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 6:30 am:
DrO:
those are my thoughts also. But maybe she is thinking right, that we wouldn't be able to really see inside the wound anyhow? And it will be cleaned based on what one feels? I did ask Sat night about using something to see in there, and she doesn't own anything special for that.
A Question:
Does the amount of, or lack of, lameness, have any indication whether or not there may still be bark/wood in the wound? Cody is moving better daily, and he's full of pep, bright eyed and bushy tailed!
They discharge from the wound was a larger quantity yesterday a.m. and p.m., but with the Betadine being pumped in there, hard to tell if it's anything bad or not. Didn't seem stinky to me.
He's been getting a lot of dried crud around the wound and along his leg that I pick off daily. Scabby stuff, dried blood, Betadine?
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 11:41 am:
Wound before flushing, and showing location
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 11:46 am:
After cleaning:
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 11:52 am:
With you cleaning well and the wound draining well, not necessarily. It is usually pocketed up infection that causes the pain unless the piece is large. It does suggest nothing is embedded deeply however. Vaseline on the areas the exudate is draining onto will make cleaning easier and prevent irritation.
DrO
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 11:54 am:
The cause of the injury: The small pieces I pulled out of him. I've stuck my fingers in the wound up to my thumb
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 12:01 pm:
 This is half of the "killer" branch! Cody is sniffing his hair that is still on the end of it. He's in better spirits than I am over this whole ordeal we've been through.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 12:17 pm:
DrO,
I believe you may have posted before seeing the pictures: After seeing the wound, (the first picture is with Betadine being in the wound all night, thus the color) the location, and size of that nasty "weapon" what are your thoughts REGARDING THE FOLLOWING:
A. Does he need to be sedated and checked again
manually?
B. If so, should I insist on him being laid
down?
C. If the sedation isn't needed in your opinion,
Do I continue twice daily flushing, and twice
daily Betadine? And how much longer; the
wound is still healing with the flushing, correct? Just slowing it down, and keeping it open.
The edema under his stomach has gotten longer, but skinnier, and there is less of it now. As I've said, he is moving better every day, and you can see he don't look sick at all.
Want to do what is needed, but if I don't need to have a vet out, great. If I don't need to get soaked every day also, that's great too!!
Thanks DrO for your comments and advice.
Cody thanks you too.
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Member:
Banthony
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 12:18 pm:
Wow! Good luck with this Angie. This is a lot worse than what my gelding had.
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Member:
Corinne
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 12:58 pm:
Angie,
Wow....I have such a love for greys. He is beautiful...and I love the contrasting mane. Poor guy....looks like that hurts a bunch. He should be able to crib on that nasty killer branch as it deserves it (although we wouldn't want bad habits to form).
Drainage always makes wounds appear nasty but the clean wound pic looks great (once again, I only know wounds from a human perspective, but I really appreciate some good drainage, and a good wound cleaning).
Is that your daughter or you in the pic with him?
Hugs to Cody.
Corinne
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 1:22 pm:
Thank You Corinne!! Yes, that is me and Cody. I feel so young and beautiful now...instead of frumpy and middle aged!!
Hard to feel gorgeous when you are soaked from the knees down, and wet up to your elbows on your arms.
After the vet sees the branch, I think I will shred it and let Cody use it for bedding. He really wanted to bite it as it was, but that is inviting choke for our next medical problem.
Yea, Linda, I think it's worse than I thought now that I saw the pictures! I do think that the fact that is is going towards his front and out to the side of his thigh is a good thing though. Strictly in muscle is my guess.
And if it heals with NO long term problems, lameness, both me and my husband will be very thankful. Cody is only 7, he is just getting to his best years and I want to see how far I can take his training.
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Member:
Frances
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 1:52 pm:
It's a lovely picture of both of you - but what a horrendous branch.
Good luck tomorrow!
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Member:
Corinne
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 1:58 pm:
Darn...you look 20 something and gorgeous even in barn clothes.....I should be emailing you about facial products. Anyway, currently scanning Demetrius' pedigree for you. Will be in your inbox shortly. Than you can get off the computer for the day.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 5:16 pm:
Just to clarify something: Cody is standing on the leg, and walking. He is over reaching when bringing that leg forward, and stopping short when the leg is going back. Don't know if that means anything, most likely just is how the muscle(S) are torn.
I hope I didn't give anyone the impression he is bouncing around at any gait other than a slow walk!!
20 something?! O.K., I'll go with that one, lol!!!
I am just amazed he IS walking on it so soon.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 6:12 pm:
Angie, these are decisions you and your veterinarian must make based on your best assessment of the wound.
Even the excellent pictures you have taken don't replace the knowledge that you have by caring and examining daily. In your previous post to my last post you said you are still finding pieces coming out. That is an indication there may still be something in there but if you are not finding any more maybe those were the only ones? But I really cannot know that from here. If you do come to the conclusion that you have not got it all there is no doubt in my mind the wound can be better examined with the horse on its back.
DrO
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 8:43 pm:
Thank You, I'll update after vet visit tomorrow. No more pieces since Monday night, seems to be flushing pretty clean IMO.
Hubby took the pictures, I'll let him know you think he did pretty good just holding the camera under the belly and clicking away, grin.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 9:19 pm:
Yikes, Angie. Just saw the posted photos . . . Amazing wound. Cody looks like a VERY sweet guy . . . what a beauty . . . (you, too )
Hope any other pieces will drip out with the pull of gravity so you don't have to flip him over . . .
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 11:05 pm:
Angie, best wishes to you and Cody. He is beautiful! (I,too, have a soft spot for grays.) And...how old did you say you were? I must have read that wrong!
I'm just now reading all of this as I've been out of town and away from the computer and am just catching up. Poor Cody! My gosh! I'm amazed he wasn't hurt worse. That's a big branch! Once the wound is clean, he'll heal up fine. You may remember about one of your stallions that reared up, tore down the PVC sprinkler system, and came down on a sharp piece of it. It jabbed a hole in between his jaw bones that was so deep I couldn't reach the end of it with my fingers. He even broke one of the bones around his vocal cords. It took awhile, but he healed up fine. There isn't even a scar now. I bet with your good care Cody will do the same.
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 28, 2006 - 3:02 am:
What a beautiful horse, Angie. What an ugly wound! You know, a few years back, a friend was out riding the trails in the mountains of north Jersey, and her horse slid down a small ravine onto a dead tree trunk about 2" in diameter. It was a long one, like your's, and it entered in the same general area. Unfortunately, the whole thing remained imbedded and the tip was visible under the skin of the rump! She was with another rider who helped her break enough of the branch off so the horse could move. They got the mare back up to the trail, and after an agonizing treck, made it to the roadway. The friend galloped home, called the clinic in Ringoes, NJ (closest), and tore back with the trailer to pick up the injured horse. They DrOve as fast as they dared, but, unfortunately, it was autumn, and dry leaves had settled in the nooks and crannies of the hitch on the trailer. In their haste, the chain was dragging on the roadway, and sparking. A car pulled alongside, and the occupant hollered, "fire"!!!! Which there was. They removed the horse ( branch firmly imbedded), and a trooper stopped and helped put out the fire. When they got underway again, they had an escort for most of the rest of the way. Yes, the horse survived. The branch went right through, but missed any vital organs! She went home in a week, and the recovery was unremarkable ( as was the ride home in the trailer! ). That was about 12 yrs. ago, and the mare is still with us! Healthy!
Sara's right, he should heal up fine!
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 28, 2006 - 7:26 am:
Wow, Angie. That's one heck of a wound...remarkable pix. Kudos to your husband for his photography skill!
Want to wish Cody an uncomplicated & full recovery!
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 28, 2006 - 9:46 am:
O.K., so maybe mid 40's isn't middle aged. Sara is confused on my age, Holly thinks I look good, Corinne thinks I have a need for facial products even though I do look young?! Ya all make me smile that's for sure!!!
Just for you Corinne, if there are any more shots of me posted I'll be sure to do my face first, and style my hair too, lol!!! (but no fancy clothes, I hardly ever wear anything but jeans and a t-shirt or sweater)
Ya know, I can't decide what is the best thing about this site: DrO's advice and all the information he's put on here? The humor? The way everyone shares a story so that someone during a time of crisis can see light at the end of the tunnel?
The "we are one big family feeling".
Your stories sure helped this morning. There is this nagging concern that maybe Cody will have some long term problem in the muscles...it's hard to see how muscles can heal, and basically grow back.
He was cold this morning, so my anxiety level went up. After his flushing, I put a blanket on him for about 20 minutes and he was fine. I was cold too!!! Mid 30's, and had to do this very early so Brian could go to bed. Tomorrow we won't be able to do do anything with water in the barn, on cement; temp will be in the mid 20's!
I still can't believe that a fairly straight branch, laying flat, could rear up and do such damage. I am still trying to figure what hoof must have hit it, cracked it the long way. I guess that's why these things are called "freak accidents," huh?
Sara, how are you? And how is Libby doing? Please keep updating us!!!
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Member:
Corinne
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 28, 2006 - 11:11 am:
Angie....I thought you were your daughter...and hey.....good skin care should be lifelong! LOL.
Anyway, as for concerns about the muscle damage.....I can't comment on how he will turn out specifically.....however, when we were at a horse health clinic back in ND in May where I meant Sherri (Tango) there was a horse that impaled herself on a metal and cement pole. She ripped half of her chest muscles, If you looked at her from the front she looked like she was completely missing her pectorals (or what ever they are in a horse) and Sherri just posted to me in another post that she healed up just fine and is totally sound because of her exemplary care from her vet and owner and we thought she wouldn't live through the night.
Transversally, that little foal from our barn from last year, healed up nicely from a cosmetic standpoint and was taken home last spring, but he didn't have anyone doing anything with him (to rehabilitate him from his injury) so he was unable to regain anything other than pasture soundness so he was sold to some lovely women where I hope he can live out his days grazing in the pasture or maybe she can work with him to improve his outcome.
Either way you have a less remarkable injury than the one we saw with Mariah at the clinic and you are caring for Cody well. Follow Dr. O's advice in conjunction with your vet and I am positive there will be a great outcome! He looks just too darn cute and spirited to let this keep him down.
Once again....daily prayers for his recovery.
Take care,
Corinne
P.S. As a trauma nurse we would use humor at the most odd times....not out of disrespect....but to protect ourselves so that we would stay sane enough to do our jobs. So let's keep the humor rolling.....you beautiful 20 something looking, even in barn cloths gal......maybe you should stay off my face cream or you will look 12! LOL.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 28, 2006 - 1:01 pm:
Oh Angie! I finally got a chance to look at this...wow! You guys have quite an ordeal there, but sounds like Cody is in great hands.
And you both look great...remember, "It is better to look good, than to feel good," (Fernando Lamas, as played by Billy Crystal on SNL...now showing MY age.)
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 28, 2006 - 2:53 pm:
Here's an update, vet left about 45 minutes ago.
You are not going to believe this, but she stuck her ARM up in the wound, and I could see the skin moving darn near to Cody's hip bone!!! So what are we talking here, 12"? 15"?!?!? WOW.
She said that things felt good up there, and only bright red blood was on her glove, so things are healing nicely it appears.
I was having a mini heart attack when she was slicing the skin more, then I think my heart stopped at one point when Cody started scrambling to stay on his feet... a little too sleepy!!!
She said I could cut back on the bute and antibiotic now, and only flush once a day. As long as we keep the wound open as long as possible.
Oh, and see if Cody will trot a little every day also...yup, he'll love that idea I bet.
Erika, and Corinne thanks for the positive vibes and sharing of stories. Don't know about looking 12, or even 20 something, but I can probably manage to act those ages, lol!!!
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 5, 2006 - 7:37 pm:
DR.O,
Everyone,
It's been 2 weeks since Cody's injury.
As I posted last a week ago, the wound was very deep. Vet's arm inside him had her fingers moving skin near his hip bone.
He's been on an acre pasture, plenty of movement, and trotting on lunge line daily 10 minutes. Trotting smoothly it appears.
Still seeing drainage, and the crud that looks, for lack of a better description, like crumbled bacon. Have been flushing the wound daily. I can put my fingers inside the wound yet, feels very smooth, and like it is closer in on the top, though I suspect if my fingers were like 10" long I could probably go deeper in the wound.
Questions: Does this sound about right for the time frame and the depth of the wound?
How much should he be worked daily at this time?
I've never dealt with an injury like this before and I have no idea what he should be doing exercise wise.
Riding in the arena lightly, bareback, better than lunging in a smaller circle? Longer than 10 minutes?
He has cantered and kicked up his heels a few times, then he holds that leg up afterwards.
Thanks for any guidelines you can give me.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 5, 2006 - 11:04 pm:
Angie, how are YOU doing? These things are as hard on the caretaker as the horse I think.
Did the vet give you any guidelines as to exercise times? When our stallion was injured so badly his legs were injured too, and he had to have stall rest then just hand walking for some time. The deep wound between his jaws stayed open and draining for a long time. It seemed like it took forever to heal. But, it's better for such a deep wound to take a long time to heal so it heals from the inside towards the outside. If it heals over on the outside too quickly you can have major problems.
How is Cody doing mentally? Has it warmed back up for you? It makes it easier to take care of the sick and injured when the temps. stay more moderate.
Thinking of you and Cody, the sweet boy.
I'm doing fine. Had to go to NY on business for a week. Now I have to find a good time to go pick up Libby. She seems to be doing good and is moving around good on her splint. I'm anxious to see her and to have her home!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Oct 6, 2006 - 8:42 am:
Angie, I am sure it is healing like it is supposed to. It is hard to give specific advice on exercise but let me tell you the issues and then you can decide with the help from your vet. Exercise has a ying and a yang to it with such a wound. The ying is that exercise promotes drainage the yang is that it might help spread infection along fascial planes. In general in a well draining wound not showing any complications related to infection (draining puss is normal) I go for pasture rest but no forced exercise.
DrO
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Oct 6, 2006 - 12:41 pm:
DrO, Sounds good to me, just pasture rest. I don't think there is any infection, he's happy and a little sassy. I think the drainage is good, but I have nothing to compare it to of course!
My vet seemed to think it'd be healed in about 4 weeks if I remember correctly, I thought that was a little soon, but maybe not.
Pretty miraculous, this healing of the body!
Sara, I am fine, Cody has forgiven me, he's his sweet self. Brian was watching us interact in the round pen yesterday for some light lunging and review lessons, and we were like sooo smooth together..considering I've got a nasty fall cold. I think Cody was working much harder than me mentally, he was trying to make me look good, LOL!!
Let us know when you get Libby home.
Oh, and Sara, what are your thoughts on Cody's exercise once the wound seems closed up? It may be that we are living with 5' of snow by then, but assuming it's still decent for riding, do you think I need to start out really light and build up? I guess like I would in the spring after the horses stood for 4 - 6 months doing nothing?
I wonder if the new muscle growth will be tighter? That's why I mentioned bareback riding, I thought I'd really feel if he was off at all.
I have no clue on this, guess I'll muddle through it and find out.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Friday, Oct 6, 2006 - 1:00 pm:
Once you are sure the wound has totally healed, I'd start really slowly and build up, just like you would after any other serious wound. I'd be concerned about the wound being healed inside as well as closed over. I don't know how long that will take. I'd be afraid of exercise too soon as it might tear apart some of the healed tissue. With Mikey, our vet pretty much recommended the same thing Dr. O recommends on this site; hand walking slowly building up to light riding, etc. It was almost a year before we were back to normal routine with him. In his case, his deep puncture wound wasn't what we were concerned about when it came to exercise. He had one leg that had been cut through the tendon sheath; that was our biggest worry.
With winter so close, I hate to say it, but maybe you'd be better off just letting him self exercise until early spring? Too bad you don't live nearby; I've got a couple of youngsters you could ride to keep you "entertained" until Cody is healed.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Oct 6, 2006 - 4:13 pm:
Sara,
That's funny!!! Keep me entertained!! I have Tango yet, the gelding I posted about under the heading "need help training timid horse", and believe you-me, he is all the entertainment I need! I think I posted that at least 6 months ago, and I've only been on him once, still don't trust the big silly goose.
I also have another neglected 4 year old, who I've worked with in spurts here and there, plus still haven't given up on the concept the my oldest mare is going to go s-l-o-w- and relaxed on a loose rein.
So entertainment I don't need; Cody is just my nice loose easy going sweetheart is all. I SMILE when I ride him!! Maybe that is the difference? I am proud of what I've accomplished with him.
O well, once this cold and congested head leave me, I can get back to my entertainment package out in the barn, huh? Maybe that's the silver lining, the rest will get more training time.
I think your advice is good for him to self exercise til spring.
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